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 AUTHOR
 marita_b
Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 626
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Re: Gun ControlPage 26 of 50    (10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50)
People like you,...I put in brackets (insecure Americans) I get into trouble for this all the time I am meaning the generic you,..not you specifically,...hence the brackets,....

the shoot first and sort it out late bit was in referrence to the new law in Florida that the baby bush recently signed,....

The lack of paperwork is relevent in some states where you don't need much to purchase legaly but more specifically for all the illegal guns in your country,...which I equate to all the millitary weapons and armaments that have gone missing over the years and are loose out there and no one seems to care but 60 minites every 10 years or so when they do an expose' on the subject,....

I understand that the united states sometimes is like 50 different countries living under one flag when it comes to rules regulations and laws,.... and that there are very responsible ones that are doing their best to get a handle on the gun problem especially the illegal ones like,.... oddly enough NY which has in it programs like Rochesters,... project exile that I mentioned in a previous post,....and states like Florida that is now the most like the wild wild west when it comes to gun attitudes and self defense laws,....

So forgive me by not clearing that up in my post,... I was not referring to you specifically although I was trying to respond to some points you made in your earlier post,....

MY BAD
 Herkimer
Joined: 5/17/2005
Msg: 627
Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/23/2005 7:11:57 AM
Marita, just some fyi....

"Until quite recently, only five states—the US, Russia, the UK, France, and China—had acknowledged possessing nuclear weapons. The events of May 1998 added two more countries—India and Pakistan—to that list. In addition, Israel has long been credited with a clandestine a***nal, and a number of other countries—including Iran, Iraq, Libya, North Korea, and possibly Algeria—are currently widely suspected of harbouring nuclear weapons ambitions and/or to be actively pursuing such programs."


..."In general, the infrastructure and experience gained from civilian nuclear research and nuclear power programs can be of substantial benefit to a nuclear weapons program. Up to a certain point in developing a civilian nuclear fuel cycle, its technology is virtually identical to that used for producing fissile materials for weapons. Moreover, the infrastructure supporting nuclear power generation and its associated fuel cycle can provide cover for elements of a weapons program, even in a state subject to the safeguards of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA)."

"As a major world supplier of uranium and nuclear power technology, Canada has also been closely involved in the development of nuclear safeguards through the IAEA. Thus, Canada is firmly committed to preventing the proliferation of nuclear weapons, for the various reasons discussed above. It would also be greatly embarrassed if, as happened before (in the case of the Cirus reactor provided to India, plutonium from which was used in India's first nuclear explosion), Canadian-produced expertise, materials, or technology were again used by a state in the acquisition of a nuclear weapons capability. "

from....www.csis-scrs.gc.ca

just worth reading I thought but really has nothing to do with gun control! lol
 lola05
Joined: 7/1/2005
Msg: 628
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/23/2005 8:33:54 AM

herkimer
" In addition, Israel has long been credited with a clandestine a***nal,
and a number of other countries—including Iran, Iraq, Libya, ..."


(sorry, can't resist this one) ~ herkimer, Where did Isreal get That ar.senal from ?
Perhaps,...inspiring other Middle Eastern countries to aquire the same ?
They are neighbours, no ? Another escalating cycle of madness ?



taurus516
"What gun control laws would do to the honest guy who works at a convenience store and just wants to protect himself is leave him wide open and unprotected for the scum sucking lowlife who HAS a gun and wants to do harm."


Imagine for a second that, "scum sucking lowlife who HAS a gun" , walks into a "convenience store" and pulls his gun.
The " honest guy " , who works there would be, Way better off just giving the guy what he wants, especially if the "scum sucking lowlife" is somehow disquised.
There is insurance for theft, right ?

(... can't imagine this store clerk, is making very much in salary either. )

The store clerk would risk his life seriously, however, if he tried to reach for his own gun
and aim. VERY likely, ... he'd end up dead. Because he Aggravated the "scum sucking lowlife who HAS a gun" . Now, this guy, gets the store clerk's gun too. ~>
Now he has 2 guns, both of which were probably initially aquired legally, but eventually became guns acquired, Illegally. Now the dead, honest store clerk's gun, ..
.. IS on the street as an Illegal gun.



taurus516
"The guns that proliferate in the US and end up in the hands of
criminals are not legal guns acquired with permits and licences."


~ ~
 Herkimer
Joined: 5/17/2005
Msg: 629
Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/23/2005 8:38:10 AM
Iola,

I have no concrete facts nor does anyone else on where states acquire the means for creating a nuclear weapon but several good guesses can be made and I feel safe the main components came from North America!
 lola05
Joined: 7/1/2005
Msg: 630
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/23/2005 8:46:50 AM
Good guess, herkimer. However i'd suspect the material in North Korea, came from Russia.
And Russia has had very poor control over their platonium, and it's storage. Often, No
security at all. (!)
 Herkimer
Joined: 5/17/2005
Msg: 631
Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/23/2005 8:48:42 AM
you inquired about israel but yes NK probably from russia...but due to stability issues etc I would still guess north america
 TimPommell
Joined: 1/13/2005
Msg: 632
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/23/2005 8:51:24 PM
Lola

~ Tim, in future, please consider more clarity in your posts.
By attributing the member's name and message #,... Within... the quote itself.
Such as -> sexyandbrainy - (msg:1035) "......".

Check the post again, it does have the names and post numbers… had you not been so prepared to take issue with everything I said, you might have noticed.

If your not willing to make that effort, just individualize your posts to particular members.

Didn't you just recently chastise me in another thread for suggesting proper posting etiquette? I believe your exact words were "Specific Standards concerning proper Posting Etiquette, and so on…” There’s an expression relating to practicing what you preach ... you should look into it.

Here's another *news flash*, Tim. The thread is not about criminal intent or behavior.
It's about, Gun Control. Emphasis being placed on the topic of Guns, and the implications
of their existance, by possession and use in a society.

So I can’t respond to posts directed at me that require clarity, which may be (in your opinion) slightly off topic? You do … is there a double standard in play that I’m not familiar with? I think you’re wrong in your position and logic, completely off base as a matter of fact. You raise all kinds of hell with people who don’t march to the beat of your drummer whether you stay on topic or not. If my shooting holes in your position (pun intended), by pointing out the absence of logic, I am truly sorry … not for pointing it out, but that you aren’t open minded enough to accept that your position might be in error. Perhaps you should spend more time considering your position than attempting to berate people with your “superior” intellect simply because they don’t agree with you.

And Tim, *news flash*, ... any abusive behavior IS a form of violence. Because it 'violates' the basic Rights of the victim. In this case, the Right to be free of harrassment. So it really wouldn't be a major 'stretch' to consider that a person of this character may also be inclined to other possible forms of violence.

Really? So you can abuse the facts relative to the concept of gun control, and it’s a form of violence? We should, by your logic, then consider you to be a violent person? Personally I think you’re abusing the game of baseball by spending so much time way out in left field….


As for, " The list being very long, and the majority does not necessarily include any
previous act of violence ". ... i really don't know where you are getting that "list" from,
and further that assumption, but i would suggest it is Not, .. from reality.

Perhaps not Canadian reality… but then again I don’t live in Canada and I don’t profess to know any of your laws. In the US, you can get a restraining order for anyone who, (provided you can demonstrate in court), infringes on your constitutional rights of life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. I can get specific “reality” references for you if you like, my cousin is a very prominent attorney in my home state of KY … (and president of the state senate) … he gets a big kick out of legal experts like you who skipped law school.


~ You can lead a person to logic, but ya can't make em *think*. ~

I know, I’ve given up trying to hold your head down…. At least you’ve acknowledged that we are having trouble making you *think*… one step down, 11 to go … hopefully we’ll find a cure for your hoplophobia
 lola05
Joined: 7/1/2005
Msg: 633
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/23/2005 8:57:40 PM
taurus,

i fear that you've missed my main point.
Just, .. HOW, .. do so many Illegal Guns end up on your streets ?
You stated...



taurus516
"The guns that proliferate in the US and end up in the hands of
criminals are not legal guns acquired with permits and licences."


My point is that, they... Started Out Being Legal Guns... before they got stolen.
That's how most, wind up being categorized as Illegal Guns.
Legal Guns are stolen regularly from home owners (theoretically, every 4th house),
and businesses during robberies.
Targeting private Gun Collectors ? Now, That .. IS ...a Big score !

This fuels the need for more Guns for protection. And on it goes. It's craziness !
People are dying everywhere, and the Gun Manufacturers are,
*laughing* all the way to the bank. And, talking More people into buying them.

And that scenario that you described, of a guy just walking in and shooting the store
clerk, to me, seems way more likely now in Florida. Because of the legal changes that
allow someone to blow someone away, under any percieved threat.

Seriously, won't the crook definately shoot faster, knowing how much his life,
is Now, MORE at risk ? i'd bet there's gonna be alot more *trigger happy* crooks.



" Gun control won't work here."


i'd say a good First Step, is that the Irresponsible Gun Owners,
start securing their firearms.

There should be Serious Penalties for Not doing that !

Less guns stolen, Less on the street. ~ It's that simple.
 lola05
Joined: 7/1/2005
Msg: 634
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/23/2005 9:08:09 PM
Tim, " hoplophobia ".

i haven't got a clue what that means. But it sure looks funny.
And i am sure, at some point, you will tell me what that means.
But please tell Webster too,.. k ? Cus he doesn't know either.

Thanks for the *giggle* guy.
i almost unfailingly get at least one, outta your posts.

It actually makes reading them worthwhile.

Cheers

~ ~
 TimPommell
Joined: 1/13/2005
Msg: 635
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/23/2005 9:14:38 PM
I was in Miami yesterday morning, and a 3 year old boy shot his 10 year old sister in the chest with a gun he found in the house. The mother, outside talking with a stranger at the time, claims to have been unaware of a gun in the house. She was promptly charged with criminal negligence, and additional charges are pending, the extent to be determined by the outcome of the investigation.
You can't keep stupid people from acting stupid, it's in their nature. What you can do is limit their ability to affect society by containing their stupidity... Looks like the prosecutor for Miami-Dade has the right idea.
 marita_b
Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 636
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/23/2005 9:19:46 PM
okay,..Tim,...I'm comfused,....
your last post seems to be making my point for me,...

I thought your position was that gun controll,...is a bad thing?
 TimPommell
Joined: 1/13/2005
Msg: 637
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/23/2005 9:25:53 PM
Lola Lola Lola...
I've been trying to tell you there is more than a single source for information! If you would click your RIGHT mouse button occasionally instead of always clicking the LEFT, you might find the other 90% of the information available on any subject.
http://www.phobialist.com/index.html
Hoplophobia- Fear of firearms
 lola05
Joined: 7/1/2005
Msg: 638
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/23/2005 9:26:46 PM
foxey ?

A commentary by John R. Lott Jr. ?
A bookseller, whose ' pseudocience ' is The Most quoted, by the NRA ?




"— John Lott, a resident scholar at the American Enterprise Institute,
is the author of More Guns, Less Crime (University of Chicago Press, 2000)
and The Bias Against Guns" (Regnery 2003).


And he didn't fail to plug those books.

Check him out yourself.

For now, ... no for you.
 lola05
Joined: 7/1/2005
Msg: 639
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/23/2005 9:35:55 PM
awwww Tim, see i knew you would tell me.

And no, i have Never needed, so far, to go to any site like that.

(http://www.phobialist.com/index.html)

.. do you spend much time there ?

Careful Tim, wouldn't want you developing, lolaphobia.
 TimPommell
Joined: 1/13/2005
Msg: 640
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/23/2005 9:48:40 PM
Marita

okay,..Tim,...I'm comfused,....
your last post seems to be making my point for me,...I thought your position was that gun controll,...is a bad thing?

A bad thing? Not at all, I don't have a problem with all weapons being registered, mine are. I don't have a problem with owners being held accountable for securing their weapons, I secure mine.
If by "GUN CONTROL" you mean the removal of my right to keep and bear arms, you're right, I am against it. Don't confuse my disgust for irresponsible parenting as a desire to melt down my guns.... it wasn't MY gun that shot the girl, and more than likely since the mother claims to have not known of its existance, the gun was not legal. (She claims he shot his sister because he sees violence on TV, according to the news interview she did immediately following the shooting.) My point, is irresponsible parenting. Seems given your position on the gun control issue you automatically skip right past the logical aspect and go right to blaming the gun... 1.) Who allowed an unsafe weapon in the house within reach of a toddler? 2.) Who was outside chatting with a stranger instead of tending to her children? 3) Who picks the programming for the house allowing a 3 year old to watch people shooting each other?
The problem wasn't the gun, it was an irrresponsible parent.
 TimPommell
Joined: 1/13/2005
Msg: 641
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/23/2005 9:52:05 PM
Lola

And no, i have Never needed, so far, to go to any site like that.

Perhaps thats because you also seem to suffer from Epistemophobia.
 TimPommell
Joined: 1/13/2005
Msg: 642
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/24/2005 8:10:35 AM
Cynic

The whole argument is assinine.

I don't agree that the debate is asinine... Personally I think that we need to stop the far left from blaming everyone and everything else for our own failures. Liberal thinking is generally shortsighted and normally associated with Pop Culture. It's the reckless application of "enlightened thought" that is undermining the fabric of the country, and simply allowing the rhetoric to continue un-countered is irresponsible.
Before we removed corporal punishment in schools and in homes, we had zero incidents of school shootings. Treating children like adults has demonstrated failure after failure after failure. Our generation would never contemplate taking a gun out of the house without permission let alone to school and actually opening up randomly on fellow students. We wouldn't have gotten past step #1 without thinking "Dad will kill me". Now they don't even have to fear 3 licks from the principal for throwing a chair at a teacher.
Let me give you a perfect example of just how shortsighted enlightened thinking can be. A child skips school, and as punishment he or she is suspended. You've just taken a child who didn't want to be in school, and excused them from coming for additional days ... where is the punishment for the infraction? Seems like more of a reward to me...
 lola05
Joined: 7/1/2005
Msg: 643
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/24/2005 12:52:41 PM

freespirit9931
" Point is, you should have the right to defend yourself if you feel threatened
in anyway until the govt comes up with a way to protect its citizens from violence."



freespirit9931 - " Until the gov't comes up with a way to control guns,
not only legally but through the black market then this is the way it should be. "


This is that Catch 22, that i've been referring to....
America citizens have, more or less ' gunned ' themselves into a corner...
Which is now, ..Very Hard,.. to get out of.
And the NRA is lavishly, fueling the 'fire' power. ---> .

~ Citizens Fear violence, .. so they run out and buy more Guns,
Many of which get stolen, and wind up on the street, ... this availability ...
Maximizes the potential for street thugs to commit, ...Extreme Violence,
as well as, ...increases the probability of success at robberies. = more stolen Guns.

~ Which causes a reaction of more citizens Fearing Violence. So more people run out
and Buy Guns. Many of which wind up on the street .... and so on, ... and so on...

The United States of America, has their own,
"Arms race" happening, .. Within their borders -
~ And it appears to me, as complete Madness.



taurus516 - " What you don't seem to grasp is the criminal mentality we have here. "


i do have some insight into various types of "criminal mentality".
... all i'm saying is, ... let's not arm them, ... k ?



taurus516 - " Speaking of Hitler,want to venture a guess
as to why the Nazis never attempted to invade Sweden?


i'd " venture a guess ", ... that the answer to that,
is far more complex, that what you are attempting to suggest.
.
 lola05
Joined: 7/1/2005
Msg: 644
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/24/2005 1:22:36 PM

Malizia
" It will never happen but we can dream. "


Amazing goals have been reached,... that began as a Dream. ~
~ ( " I have a dream..." - Martin Luther King ) ~

~ We are limited mostly, by what we dare not Dream.



timpommell - " Before we removed corporal punishment in schools and in homes,
we had zero incidents of school shootings. "


omg ! ~ Tim, That's right, .. just start Beating them again.
That will teach em, .. that violence is just, .. Not okay !

(speaking of, " shortsighted enlightened thinking " ! )



" Let me give you a perfect example of just how shortsighted enlightened thinking can be. A child skips school, and as punishment he or she is suspended. You've just taken a child who didn't want to be in school, and excused them from coming for additional days ... where is the punishment for the infraction? Seems like more of a reward to me...


Beating him, Will, .. Certainly, .. get him interested in school.


~ Tim, you, ... True voice of "enlightenment". ( ! )
Consider, .. Progression, as opposed to Regression or Stagnation.
That is Ideally, how a society will evolve in terms of that,
ever elusive construct called, " Civilizaton ". . . . . . . . .

And Tim, i don't know all the details about that woman whose child was killed by a gun
from her own home. She stated that she had no awareness of a gun, .. Being in her home.

But if you know, no more that i do, i think you'd be unfair to jump to the conclusion
that she is lying. It is possible, if she had a partner or another adult living with her,
and that the gun may have been hidden by that person.

Truth betold, i could have been busted, years ago, for something that was in my home,
of which, i had no awareness. i never put it there, .. or allowed it to be in my home.
Ended up there anyway. And i ended up doing my own lil " search and seizure ".
Any headlines would have implied something completely different, than was the case.

If this woman, Didn't know about the firearm,
and lost a child because of it, it's all the more tragic.
 Montreal_Guy
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 645
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History
Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/24/2005 1:31:38 PM

Wal-Mart parking lot shooting suspect mentally disturbed
GLENDALE, Ariz. (AP) — The man accused of killing two workers in a Wal-Mart store parking lot appears to be mentally disturbed, according to court records released Wednesday.
Ed Lui, 53, was arrested Tuesday after allegedly driving into a Wal-Mart parking lot in this Phoenix suburb and shooting two cart collectors.

The documents released after his initial court appearance early Wednesday alleged that after shooting the workers, Lui reloaded his .40-caliber handgun and then shot them several more times while they lay on the ground.

The court documents indicated that he appeared mentally disturbed but gave no details.

Glendale police previously said it didn't appear Lui knew the victims or had a vendetta against them or Wal-Mart.

"We don't know why he did this. This was barbaric," police Officer Mike Pena said after the shootings on Tuesday.

Lui was booked into jail Tuesday night on two counts of first-degree murder.

The shootings occurred in the middle of the parking lot, about 75 yards from the store entrance. It did not appear he spoke with the victims.

Two witnesses followed the gunman as he drove from the parking lot. They lost track of him in the neighborhood but were able to provide a license number that police used to track him.

Pena said Lui was arrested without incident at his home in a retirement village about two miles away in neighboring Peoria.

The victims were identified as Anthony Spangler, 18, and Patrick Graham, who was probably in his 30s, Pena said. Both were from Glendale.

Delia Garcia, a Wal-Mart spokeswoman on the scene, said the two men were collecting shopping carts when the gunfire broke out. The store closed Tuesday afternoon but was reopened Wednesday morning.

"This is an extremely tragic situation," company spokeswoman Sharon Weber said from Wal-Mart headquarters in Bentonville, Ark.

The store is about 20 miles northwest of downtown Phoenix.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-08-23-walmart-shootings_x.htm


I suppose someone will now say that if those two employees had been armed - things might have been a bit different....
 Montreal_Guy
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 647
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/24/2005 3:59:22 PM


I can't even imagine living my life like that, in that type of "freedom".
 TimPommell
Joined: 1/13/2005
Msg: 648
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History
Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/24/2005 4:50:55 PM
Lola Lola Lola....
Just when I think there might be a twinkle of commons sense somewhere in those pretty eyes you post stuff like this;

omg ! ~ Tim, That's right, .. just start Beating them again.
That will teach em, .. that violence is just, .. Not okay !

(speaking of, " shortsighted enlightened thinking " ! )

Do you have children in public school? Do you pray every day that they'll come home intact? Since when does three licks from the principal constitute a beating? Let's allow history to dictate which is the most effective method, shall we? The old fashioned “spare the rod spoil the child” method, zero school shootings. The “enlightened thinking” approach to discipline, 10+ school shootings and counting.... call me crazy, but I'm not willing to bet my child’s life on YOUR enlightened approach any longer.

Consider, .. Progression, as opposed to Regression or Stagnation.
That is Ideally, how a society will evolve in terms of that,
ever elusive construct called, " Civilizaton ". . . . . . . . .

Care to compare body counts? I don't call dramatically increased teen death rates, escalation of school violence, and the absence of personal accountability "progress" but then again, I'm not as enlightened as you so perhaps I don’t see the big picture … is thinning the herd the current goal of the enlightened left?

i don't know all the details about that woman whose child was killed by a gun
from her own home. She stated that she had no awareness of a gun, .. Being in her home.

But if you know, no more that i do, i think you'd be unfair to jump to the conclusion
that she is lying. It is possible, if she had a partner or another adult living with her,
and that the gun may have been hidden by that person.

The NRA fairies could have hidden the gun for all I know. I can tell by your statements you don’t have children… otherwise you’d know that you don't leave a 3 year old toddler in any house or even any room of the house unattended... anyone who has kids can certainly attest to that.... hell there are some 17 year olds you can't leave in the house unattended!
There is nothing in my house for more than 24 hours that I don’t know about. Of course I go through my son’s pockets when I do laundry and any sign at all that something is not quite right and I go through his room and his car. I will stop at nothing to protect my child, even from himself. It’s called proactive parenting, another something you should look into.
All I know of the story is what was reported on the news when I was in Miami, and I posted it precisely as it was reported. Neither the news nor I said anything about the little girl being killed. Guess we just got a demonstration of how being shot automatically equals being killed no matter if you were treated and released or not.
 Montreal_Guy
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 649
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/24/2005 4:53:58 PM
Perhaps if people spent more time raising their children and loving their spouses, and less time concentrating on materialism - things might be a bit different.

Just a thought...
 TimPommell
Joined: 1/13/2005
Msg: 650
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/24/2005 4:58:03 PM
Monty

I can't even imagine living my life like that, in that type of "freedom".

And we can't imagine trying to live our lives in your type of "freedom". If your point is that our different countries have different cultures, you've made it. If your point is that your culture is somehow better than ours by virtue of its enlightened state, we don't need to agree with you, and you certainly don't need our approval...
With our population being about 10 times yours, it would seem ours is at least a little bit more suitable to the thought processes of a far greater number of people, quite a few of them former Canadian citizens.
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