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Show ALL Forums  > British Columbia  > Legalization of Marijuana.      Home login  
 AUTHOR
 ratherBgolfing
Joined: 8/10/2008
Msg: 126
Legalization of Marijuana.Page 6 of 8    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8)
I find it interesting that the vast majority of proponents of the legalization of marijuana use the comparison between pot and alcohol and tobacco as their main argument.
I have yet to read much of an argument for the legalization of marijuana based on its own merits.
Clearly, the strongest argument for the legalization of marijuana is the economical benefit to the country. And that only becomes a boon if it's legal in the US as well. SO really, until the US legalizes pot, there's not a whole lot of benefit for Canada to do so.
 literallydreaming
Joined: 12/7/2009
Msg: 127
Legalization of Marijuana.
Posted: 2/10/2010 10:38:11 AM
Unless you approve of the illegalization of alcohol (again) and tobacco, I'm wondering where you get off on telling people they have to argue on "it's own merits"

Nothing exists in a vacuum

Can you argue, on it's own merits, why aspirin should be legal? It kills and destroys the heath of thousands, and is less effective then other NSAIDs...
 ratherBgolfing
Joined: 8/10/2008
Msg: 128
Legalization of Marijuana.
Posted: 2/10/2010 10:50:42 AM
Unless you approve of the illegalization of alcohol (again) and tobacco, I'm wondering where you get off on telling people they have to argue on "it's own merits"


I don't know where YOU get off on telling me what opinions I could have.
And furthermore, where do I tell people that they HAVE to argue on "IT'S (incidentally, if you are going to fake quote me, I'd appreciate if you use proper grammar) own merits". I don't. I just say I find the lack of that type of argument in this thread interesting. Hey dude, you can go ahead and argue that marijuana should be legal because alcohol is all you want. That's just not an argument that will ever win over any votes in the House of Commons.

But I do find it rather hilarious that you think I can not have an opinion on the legalization of marijuana unless I have an opinion on alcohol.
The two are unrelated.
You may want to make them related, but they are not.
That's like saying "Unless you believe that the gun control registry should be abolished, you shouldn't speak on behalf of any marijuana movement."


"Can you argue, on it's (sic) own merits, why aspirin should be legal?"
Ummm... it IS legal, so there's no need to argue.
 winterfall10
Joined: 6/5/2008
Msg: 129
Legalization of Marijuana.
Posted: 2/10/2010 12:57:44 PM
Here is a thought regarding legalization of pot in Canada and its impact on the US.

It has been alleged that BC exports over 2 billion dollars of pot every year, with large quantities either traveling to, or through, the United States. If pot was legalized, it would be a much harder commodity to move across the border since it would likely have some regulations (ala alchool, tobacco, prescription drugs etc).

Is it possible that by legalizing pot we would help reduce the occurrence of illegal drugs entering the US? Would BC/Canada be really exporting that much home grown pot under legalization and regulation?

I cannot disagree more that pot, alcohol, tobacco pharmaceuticals and even firearms are not related. They are all items which provide minimal benefit to the majority of society, yet we allow some and not others. If we as a society are capable of regulating something like tobacco, whose only redeeming factor is that it is taxed by the government and may provide a few people some jobs, why can't we see other unregulated items coming into the same mold?

Here is the number one reason for legalizing pot. People like it, not everyone, but those who do, use it because they like it. Funny, it is the exact same reason as tobacco and alcohol. Can anyone tell me why alcohol and tobacco, whose use leads to many negative effects on society, is legal? What redeeming features do they offer our society? Yeah, it is because some people like it.

Sure there are medical reasons for using pot, something which alcohol and tobacco can't boast, but who cares about that really? Medical pot has been available for years in many places around the world and few people have raised an eyebrow to it. Never seen medical alcohol or tobacco, can someone point out where doctors (today) recommend this as a remedy?

Readers might notice I pose a lot of questions rather than providing "facts". The reason is I would like people who feel they have something to say on this topic actually take the time to think about what they are talking about and, if so inspired do some research. On one hand this is all conjecture, since we are posting on a social forum and expressing our views. However on a larger stage, if we as a society become better educated our opinions may carry more weight, and debates like this would devolve less towards name calling and hopefully more towards bridging gaps and building a harmonious society.
 ratherBgolfing
Joined: 8/10/2008
Msg: 130
Legalization of Marijuana.
Posted: 2/10/2010 1:16:41 PM
winterfall... as long as pot is illegal in the States, it would be illegal to transport it into the States. And no way does Canada legalize it without the States doing so first. Imagine the headache it would cause Homeland Security. And by pi$$ing off the States, you pi$$ off our most important economic partner.
So yes, I agree totally that the economic boon to Canada would be great, but only AFTER the Americans legalize it. For Canada to legalize marijuana without the U.S.'s blessing would mean the economic ruin of our country.

Also, regards to reducing the amount of illegal drugs entering the states, I don't think that really has much bearing one way or the other. Price is the main factor there, whether it's legal or not. Alcohol is a good example. The RCMP estimates that the booze smuggling trade from US to Canada is in excess of 8 Billion dollars a year! That's more than the total revenue in Canadian taxes from all provincial liquor boards combined!
 4tress
Joined: 3/19/2009
Msg: 131
Legalization of Marijuana.
Posted: 2/10/2010 2:56:18 PM
One does not need any hard statistics to see how the staunch users and ardent proponents of legalization, in general, sound like they are lacking a few brain cells themselves. Their arguments are less than brilliant and personally I have yet to meet one that I admire in any way.
Sorry, if this offends, not directed at anyone in particular. Just a personal observation.
Feel really sorry for the youth caught in it. I know a few of them myself and it looks really, really sad.
 winterfall10
Joined: 6/5/2008
Msg: 132
Legalization of Marijuana.
Posted: 2/10/2010 4:34:44 PM

One does not need any hard statistics to see how the staunch users and ardent proponents of legalization, in general, sound like they are lacking a few brain cells themselves. Their arguments are less than brilliant and personally I have yet to meet one that I admire in any way. Sorry, if this offends, not directed at anyone in particular. Just a personal observation.


That is fine, so you haven't heard compelling arguments, but what does this comment bring to this conversation? It appears to be commonplace that rather than providing reasonable input people tend to devalue the participants in a debate. Can you provide those of us who feel that legalization has merit a counter point that is meaningful, rather than insulting those who have an opinion that differs from yours (educated or not)?



Feel really sorry for the youth caught in it. I know a few of them myself and it looks really, really sad.


You haven't said where you stand on this issue, but I would assume you lead towards maintaining the status quo here. If that is the case, then why feel sorry for "the youth caught in it"? People of any age make choices. These can be good or bad choices and can be for the right or wrong reasons. If we as a society are not prepared to step up and help ourselves with proper, concise and accurate education of the ups and downs of life, then why should we feel sorry? If we as people are not doing anything actively to help the society we live in, then we must be okay with what is going on.

I do not mean to directly call you out here 4tress but, your comments indicate what is wrong with a great many people. Maintaining the status quo is much easier to handle than change, yet change is what allows us a society to grow. Rather than taking a back seat, why not step up and be active in how we as a society shape ourselves for the future?

Then again, maybe this is a topic you, or others, have a passing fancy on, but are not really commited to, which is fine.

I personally do not get involved in a great many things, because I don't care about them. You won't see me talking on topics such as gun control or driving regulations because they mean little if nothing to me. If this, or any topic is one that interests you enough to post on it, then try to do so meaningfully and add to the debate, rather than adding white noise to the background.
 literallydreaming
Joined: 12/7/2009
Msg: 133
Legalization of Marijuana.
Posted: 2/10/2010 10:29:43 PM
So you would say there would have been a need to argue why we should have abolished slavery in the 1800's...correct? Just because the government is or isn't doing something does not make it de facto correct. To argue that that the status quo is correct because it is the status quo is pretty silly.

And guns are not drugs, pot and alcohol are. If you can't get that basic analogical reasoning...well, best be golfin
 velopedian
Joined: 11/4/2009
Msg: 134
view profile
History
Legalization of Marijuana.
Posted: 2/11/2010 9:13:38 AM
herding... i helped a friend through non-hodgkins lymphoma a few years ago and he used medical marijuana to help him through his chemo. all the local compassion club requires is a note from your doctor. there you'll find that they have a range of different strains that, far from just making you "stupid and dizzy", will help you function better. some relieve pain, others help reduce nausea, still others will give you a little energy.

and yes, it is a heckuva lot cheaper than the other route.

good luck, and all the best in your fight.
 ratherBgolfing
Joined: 8/10/2008
Msg: 135
Legalization of Marijuana.
Posted: 2/11/2010 10:00:40 AM
So you would say there would have been a need to argue why we should have abolished slavery in the 1800's...correct


Absolutely. You think Lincoln just woke up one day and said "hmmm... you know... hunting with crossbows was abolished in the 1200s. Today I will abolish slavery. All in favour, say Aye. All opposed, we aren't going to count your votes because slavery is wrong and there's no need to defend this decision."
Nuh-uh. He debated the issue with the lawmakers of the day until the act was passed. He was up against a TON of opposition in that regard but you know what won out for him? Solid ARGUMENTS as to why slavery was wrong. Heck, the 13th amendment did not even pass through the house on its first attempt. Pick up a frickin history book and learn about you ancestors dude.

Back on topic, before this one gets whitwashed as well...
Like I said before literally... go ahead and argue it all you want on the "alcohol is legal, tobacco is legal, drugs should be legal" soapbox. It won't get you anywhere.


And guns are not drugs, pot and alcohol are. If you can't get that basic analogical reasoning...well, best be golfing

You're right. Guns are not drugs, but guns are dangerous aren't they? Guns kill don't they? So in that regard, they are very much like alcohol, tobacco and drugs. If you don't get that, then you best just keep on dreaming.
Just because YOU don't see the connection, doesn't mean that it's not there.
 ratherBgolfing
Joined: 8/10/2008
Msg: 136
Legalization of Marijuana.
Posted: 2/11/2010 11:36:12 AM
(Incidentally, when I say "he" I do mean it in the broader sense... to include all abolitionists. Just thought I would clarify that before you jump all over that, saying that Lincoln technically did not debate the issue himself.)
 4tress
Joined: 3/19/2009
Msg: 137
Legalization of Marijuana.
Posted: 2/11/2010 5:24:46 PM

Is it just me or are people really misinformed??
Pot is'nt like it was in the 60's .......it's dozens of times more potent and does have very serious consequences.....
From what I've read it basicly renders your short term memory useless while under the influence, besides the other health risks, lungs etc.
Most people can pick out a hard core drinker in a crowd, all you have to do is talk to a hard core pot smoker and the jig is up.........follow me??

Don't legalize or promote this.

Thank you, Temptation50!
Is this any news to any of you??
Do I need statistics or is my own judgment enough when I see with my own eyes how teenagers I know well whose growth is stunted from the use of pot, how useless they've become to society in general. They cannot think anymore. And this is ok?
They only live for pot, and yes, they defend it to the death.
Perhaps they don't want to think.

I suppose the alternative for these people would be to come back to reality, instead of escaping through substance abuse. Then and only then a person can deal with their issues/hurts.
So first they try to escape from their problems and then they become the problem.
Back to basics, I say. Black or white. What is wrong is wrong.
 winterfall10
Joined: 6/5/2008
Msg: 138
Legalization of Marijuana.
Posted: 2/11/2010 7:07:09 PM

Like I said before literally... go ahead and argue it all you want on the "alcohol is legal, tobacco is legal, drugs should be legal" soapbox. It won't get you anywhere.


I agree, however, there are many similarities and how we as a society approach addressing issues with drugs or other unregulated substances can take a page from alcohol and tobacco. I wonder, again as I did before, are we okay with how alcohol and tobacco are provided to our society?

Do those of you who oppose legalization of pot feel that alcohol and tobacco should be outlawed as well? If no, then why not? You may find that the answer to why one works and the other doesn't conflicting.


What is wrong is wrong.


How do you define wrong? Laws are written based upon the values a society holds (altruistically at least). At one time, it was felt that alcohol was wrong, and was outlawed in the States, yet there was enough of a public outcry that the law was reversed and prohibition ended. Who was right, or who was wrong?

It appears that people would rather provide conjecture about the symptoms of this issue, rather than discuss the potential resolutions to what is the actual issues are. First, some people within society would like the freedom shared by those who use Alcohol and Tobacco users to smoke pot in the comfort of their own home, without worrying that they are breaking any laws. Second, in part, due to a lack of regulation, anyone, including teenagers can purchase drugs. Third, our society lacks sufficient education on the issues with not just drugs, but alcohol and tobacco use, let alone things such as pharmaceuticals or other controlled substances.

A little off topic but...


The RCMP estimates that the booze smuggling trade from US to Canada is in excess of 8 Billion dollars a year!


Can you cite a reference to this please? I have looked online and have found no indication that a number like this exists. As a counter and to prove I do do my homework and try to back up my numbers (in reference to the 2 billion export comment I made)...


Marijuana is also one of the province's leading exports, perhaps the largest in dollar terms if the OCA export figures are accurate. The top legal exports are wood ($3.2 billion US) and oil and gas ($1.5 billion US). According to the OCA, marijuana exports accounted for as much as $3.8 billion US.

http://stopthedrugwar.org/chronicle-old/195/bcmarijuana.shtml
 ratherBgolfing
Joined: 8/10/2008
Msg: 139
Legalization of Marijuana.
Posted: 2/11/2010 7:47:29 PM

I agree, however, there are many similarities and how we as a society approach addressing issues with drugs or other unregulated substances can take a page from alcohol and tobacco. I wonder, again as I did before, are we okay with how alcohol and tobacco are provided to our society?

It would not bother me one iota if alcohol and tobacco were suddenly "illegalized".


The RCMP estimates that the booze smuggling trade from US to Canada is in excess of 8 Billion dollars a year!
Can you cite a reference to this please? I have looked online and have found no indication that a number like this exists.


That's because you won't. I have no idea how I managed to type that... it was supposed to read A Billion dollars a year... not 8. My apologies.
The Association of Canadian Distillers will back that number... it's certainly even higher now. I haven't been in the industry for 15 years.

I have no problem accepting the 2B export number you toss out. I have long said that marijuana would be one of BC's top 3 industries, if it could possibly be legalized. I believe in this very thread I said BC would be out of debt almost immediatey if marijuana were ever to be legalized.
The thing is, there is simply no way that it will be legalized in Canada without it being legalized in the States first – and there is absolutely no way it will ever be legalized in the States... at least not in my lifetime.
You know why? Because it would not benefit the Americans to legalize marijuana. Nobody buys California homegrown any more. The strongest pot in the world is being grown in BC (and, to a lesser degree, hydroponically in Alberta). Why do you think the price of cocaine has fallen through the floor in the last 15 years? Because the Columbians can no longer sell pot to the Americans ... Canada's pot is better.
For the Americans to have any desire to legalize marijuana, it would have to mean an economic benefit to them. And less crime does not fall into that category. They could give two hoots (pun intended) about how legalizing marijuana would mean less smuggling into the States.
Now, if you were to tell them that by legalizing marijuana, it could mean a multi-billion-dollar increase in the United States' GNP, their ears might perk up. But as it stands, legalizing marijuana offers no economic benefit to the Americans ... or certainly not enough of one for the States to even consider its widespread legalization.
 4tress
Joined: 3/19/2009
Msg: 140
Legalization of Marijuana.
Posted: 2/12/2010 5:14:51 PM

Do those of you who oppose legalization of pot feel that alcohol and tobacco should be outlawed as well?

Absolutely. If I had it my way: YES!
Why?

"What is wrong is wrong".

How do you define wrong? Laws are written based upon the values a society holds (altruistically at least). At one time, it was felt that alcohol was wrong, and was outlawed in the States, yet there was enough of a public outcry that the law was reversed and prohibition ended. Who was right, or who was wrong?

Not about WHO was right or wrong, but WHAT is right or wrong.
Wrong: Harmful.
There is nothing of value in the consumption of alcohol, tobacco or pot. No nutritional, emotional, psychological value, nothing! If anything all three are a poison to the body, mind and spirit of the individual and if one were to make a detailed list of ALL the pros and cons of each of these substances there would be no way that in one's sober mind one would conclude that it is nothing but criminal for a government, who should be working on behalf of its citizens, to allow/control these dangerous and lethal substances for its own gain. Rather parasitical, don't you think?
Any cop will tell you, for instance, that 85% of all crime is alcohol related. Imagine how much money and grief can be saved if it was outlawed, money which could be re-directed towards education!!
And as far as "public outcry": we elect leaders because we trust them to be examples of integrity and foresight. Just because a misguided and mediocre majority wants something does not make it right. The majority of people are driven by greed and/or the desire for immediate gratification, and look our world situation.
While "Avatar" brought in over 2B in the first week, and we did not mind spending this kind of money on entertainment, can anyone tell me why people are dying of starvation and disease ... basic neglect while we entertain ourselves with movies, booze, tobacco, pot or what-have-you.
 ratherBgolfing
Joined: 8/10/2008
Msg: 141
Legalization of Marijuana.
Posted: 2/13/2010 9:05:47 AM
Now you suggest entertainment be abolished? That's completely ridiculous, at least the form of entertainment you put on the hotseat.
Going to movies provides psychological and emotional benefits, not to mention sociological ones. And yet you consider it a vice?

What do you recommend we do? Stay at home and eat water and crackers until every ill in the world is cured? Incidentally, "entertainment" would include web surfing so you are not quite practicing what you preach there 4tress.
 4tress
Joined: 3/19/2009
Msg: 142
Legalization of Marijuana.
Posted: 2/13/2010 3:38:32 PM
^^^ I know you'd rather be golfing but....
This is actually cheap entertainment itself, you're joking right?
Of course we need rest and relaxation, and uplifting entertainment too.
I mentioned the movie issue as a blatant example of the disparities in our society and the world.
If in just one week 2billion $$ can be collected easily and effortlessly (no one went hungry to pay for their entertainment), obviously there is more than plenty of money around.
What sickens me is that while we are entertaining ourselves someone else nearby or somewhere in the world is suffering because they are lacking in the basics: health care, food, etc.
We just need to stop wasting and hoarding. To me, the pot issue is just another such symptom.

A musician said to its student:
"If the string is too tight it will snap, if it's too loose it won't play".
Maybe you just golf.
 ratherBgolfing
Joined: 8/10/2008
Msg: 143
Legalization of Marijuana.
Posted: 2/13/2010 5:34:19 PM
If they were to attach a high "Sin Tax" on weed, their economy would greatly benefit from it.
Now that's a slippery slope. Taxes are used primarily for three things: infrastructure, operation of government agencies and redistribution of income (ie social welfare).
Does introducing a new product solely for the sin tax a government can collect on it "greatly benefit" their economy? I say not, so we will agree to disagree on that.
It will benefit the government, once the bureaucracies involved with introducing and implementing a new tax are resolved... but that in itself could even take years (if not decades) to smooth out.

They would also benefit from spending less on housing (jailing) all those "Hard Core" pot smokers.
I will accept that as a tongue-in-cheek remark. Certainly it can't be serious.

Legalizing marijuana from an economic standpoint makes sense for Canada, because of the exportability of the product. That's where it gets all convoluted. The product is really only exportable if it is also legal in the States and in the States, there is little if any exportability of the product because they can't make it any better than Canadians. For that reason, they really aren't interested in legalizing it. Why would the States legalize something just so their neighbour to the North could make a sh1tload of money by selling it to them?
Now, once the US can make it the same grade as Canadian weed, but at a fraction of the cost, then it becomes a viable product for the States.
Guess what though... when that happens, Canada loses its edge in the marijuana business.
If I can buy the same grade weed for less, I could care less what stamp is on the outside of the box (or bag).
 literallydreaming
Joined: 12/7/2009
Msg: 144
Legalization of Marijuana.
Posted: 2/14/2010 7:22:48 AM

It would not bother me one iota if alcohol and tobacco were suddenly "illegalized".


The organized crime rate exploding might throw you off though
 literallydreaming
Joined: 12/7/2009
Msg: 145
Legalization of Marijuana.
Posted: 2/14/2010 7:27:31 AM

Nobody buys California homegrown any more. The strongest pot in the world is being grown in BC (and, to a lesser degree, hydroponically in Alberta)


Not true. At all. Cali is swamped with its own stuff, and the strongest pot is really in Amsterdam still---Americans don't really care about legalization because the benefits won't come to swing states, but will go to states like Cali which are already controlled by one party
 literallydreaming
Joined: 12/7/2009
Msg: 146
Legalization of Marijuana.
Posted: 2/14/2010 7:30:16 AM

can anyone tell me why people are dying of starvation and disease ... basic neglect while we entertain ourselves with movies, booze, tobacco, pot or what-have-you.


Are you telling me every cent of yours that isn't going to basic needs is going to the poor? I doubt it...hypocrite.



Any cop will tell you, for instance, that 85% of all crime is alcohol related. Imagine how much money and grief can be saved if it was outlawed, money which could be re-directed towards education!!


You do realize that prohibitions cost spectacular amounts of money, and most importantly, have never really done ANYTHING---usage rates are effectivel untouched by legal means
 Lyssabee
Joined: 7/21/2009
Msg: 147
Legalization of Marijuana.
Posted: 1/27/2012 2:39:01 AM
Sorry but..Citation needed.
 DameWrite
Joined: 2/27/2010
Msg: 148
view profile
History
Legalization of Marijuana.
Posted: 1/27/2012 7:52:44 AM
Yes, pot should be legalized. It's not for everyone, but that's not the issue. What bothers me most is when people call it a gateway drug to harder drugs. What actually happens is when the pot smoker wants to get high, he or she has to risk growing their own or has to buy it from a dealer. If the dealer is out of pot...they often make offerings of what they do have on hand, i.e. hard drugs. This is the gateway.
Let pot growers smoke and sell and keep it out of the criminal's hands who's intention is to get people addicted.
 THEKidWicked
Joined: 8/9/2010
Msg: 149
Legalization of Marijuana.
Posted: 1/27/2012 6:55:46 PM
if the government sold weed cheaper then what you pay for it on the street you'll ELLIMINATE :
- grow ops
- raids on grow ops
- street dealers
- wasted police efforts
- gang wars

just to name a few tings
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 150
Legalization of Marijuana.
Posted: 1/27/2012 7:09:27 PM
The US would never let us legalize it, so the question is moot.
Show ALL Forums  > British Columbia  > Legalization of Marijuana.