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 GrandmaBooBoo
Joined: 12/30/2006
Msg: 194
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Were women better off 50 years ago?Page 3 of 21    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21)
Message # 202
No, I mean that those who wanted to work were either told they weren't man enough to do so, or not allowed to actually work. I'm sure that those who tried withstood the boy's club thing to the extent that they found it too traumatizing to stay.
Boy, this does bring back memories....but: although there are way too many stories to tell about HOW I actually did get to do the work. Traumatizing? Well....I don't think I'd go quite THAT far. It was " that I toughed it out. Whewww, 4 years of apprenticeship....I think a lot of what helped me was that all the apprentices went to our classes together (after our 10 hr work shift) and I was clearly the best at math and physics :-) I distinctly remember when one of the guys who was in danger of flunking out of the program moved his seat to sit by me; the other guys were ragging on him. He said....pfffftttttt I don't care what you guys think...she's smarter than you.

There are industries even today that simply feel a woman doesn't belong, and though legally they can't stop it, they make it a day to day hardship for them to get thru a day without wanting to quit.
Boy, truer words were never spoken! Many times that I wanted to quit.....but it was short lived. All I had to do was think about my 3 daughters.....and that me, and my job were ALL that stood between them and a life of poverty(I was a secretary before I went into blue collar work)....and I realized that my emotional hardships were trivial by comparison.

The fact that there were kids, which was expected of women in addition to marriage, negates the ability to leave and work, doesn't it? Women who were focused on children they had to have, obviously couldn't go into any type of workforce or job, because having children sort of weeded them out of that option. Unless the family could afford childcare, and that wasn't smiled upon by your friends, family and neighbors either.
There's the toughest part! Yes, there were no phones on my job. I had to repeatedly inform schools that they were to call the children's FATHER (office job) or the children's grandparents in case of emergency...because I was NOT available during working hours. ONLY if Dad or grandparents called me out of work for an "emergency" could I be reached on the job....and even then it could take a couple of hours to locate me. Fortunately, I had very healthy children. As for the working/marriage thing.....yes, when I got home I was still expected to do ALL the cooking, cleaning, laundry, grass mowing, snow shoveling, homework help, etc. That did change a little when the now ex quit working himself to finish college though. (I was supporting a family of 6 with no help). After 2 years....I guess he figured that occassionally tossing in a load of laundry was the least he could do.
As for the neighbors and what THEY thought!!!! Screw them! I didn't see their name on check that made my mortgage payment each month...so they were not entitled to any opinion about MY life.

We'll never know if they'd complain, do we? If some of the older women can shed some light on this, it would be awesome to hear it firsthand. It's not about did they want to, it's more about - was it an option IF they wanted to?
NO, NO, NO, a million times no!!! Cardinal Rule: NEVER let em see you sweat! EVER! I remember once....I'd injured my leg...they hauled me to the dispensary for the nurse to look at me...No, No, No, I'm fine (nurse was going to send me home). Limping back to my job...LOL! there's a bunch of white shirts standing around....one says I don't look like I'm able to work, the other one says.....Oh hell, you don't know her....if they told her she couldn't work, she tell them to cut the damn thing off and throw it away then cause it's no good to her. (Jim Glassner, circa 1982....call him if you don't believe me). Definitely NO complaining......men can do it all day (lots do) but if you're female in a traditionally male job...it's like waving the white flag of surrender.


Men had the option to work and stay single, or work and get married - just as women do today. And I am sure had women been allowed to work and make enough to support themselves and stay single and be accepted in society for it, they would have.
I must be honest.....I probably did have the option of staying at home....I chose NOT to. In the early years, I believed that I had both the opportunity and the obligation to set a good example for my daughters. That they could be ANYTHING they choose to be. That they didn't have to be limited being secretaries, or teachers or nurses just because they were born the wrong sex. Other than my mother....who was crippled with Polio at the age of 3, I'd never known any women who didn't work. They all worked at very boring, low paying jobs, but they worked. I don't think it ever really occured to me that work was an "option"....so I figuerd as long as I was working...I might as well work at something fun...that paid a LOT of money! (Yes, I loved my job even aside from the fact that it paid very well). Now, retired, divorced, good pension, health insurance........and I STILL get judged daily, constantly have some twit ask me if I don't feel guilty for living off a man!!!! OMG....ohhh, or here's an even better one....my Mom tells me that my ex is whining to her that he'd like to retire....but he can't afford the health insurance! This from a man who said he wouldn't lower himself to do the kind of work I did...and put up with the conditions I put up with! Who the hell cares what society accepts? I've yet to have ANY store reject my money because it had a little grease on it!!!
 lolLori
Joined: 5/16/2006
Msg: 196
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Were women better off 50 years ago?
Posted: 3/22/2008 1:20:32 AM
What person would like to be considered nothing because they were a housewife. No wages not worth anything. Childbearing the only hint of labour. No difinition no wage scale. No job decription, Mind you Leaving the house to work might just be the normal extention of the demands on a house wife and a feeling of self worth. A women doing the working the same demands in her home as in a office, or restuarant, weather its creative work like Art or Writing, Bookkeepping . Child care compared to School whatever the one at home is not providing any effort or earnings
 lolLori
Joined: 5/16/2006
Msg: 198
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Were women better off 50 years ago?
Posted: 3/22/2008 5:45:33 AM
>>>Do you really believe women would have liked to carry stones in a quarry, to dig for coal down a mine shaft, to fish in a dinky boat, instead of staying at home with the kids?>>>

Staying home with the kids including waiting to see who wasnt coming home to dinner from the Boats to the mines. Staying at home meant keeping your contant fear grieving and sanity as well knowing your sons would be next. . Do you ever notice how much those men want to just hold onto their wifes after all the rescues you watch on TV probably 50 years prior as well. Caring for the lungs of your fathers husbands brothers, so nursing would be added to her other list of chores. Rather is not the question but letting someone feel theyre nothing without a paycheck and there were the idle rich. Maybe just no middle classes. Where are the men that know theyre wifes mother and sisters were well loved and aspreciated on these sites. i know for years as well they have tried switchin a man from his job to staying staying home staying home I dont think so It would drive a man insane to ----stay----home--- he escapes 9 outa 10 x truth woman that go to work feel they are excaping too thats the normal terminology - when they ask the woman why they stay home and dont work hahah they really mean it. If they make more than their partners they may even lose their marriages go figure.
 GrandmaBooBoo
Joined: 12/30/2006
Msg: 199
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Were women better off 50 years ago?
Posted: 3/22/2008 4:36:31 PM

I think it's the same as always only now it's a bit more crude and out in the open, kind of like turning the light on in the closet, same crap is in there regardless of how dark it is.
WHAMMO!!! Now that's some straight talk.

It's extremely superficial to confuse when someone is paying respect to an "office"...but who at the same time totally disrespects the individual IN that office. Hence, I would have to agree that indeed, it is a fallacy that women were more respected in the 50s. In the 50s, a man's WIFE, or a boy's MOTHER may have been respected....but the individual who filled that role was NOT the owner of that "respect". I'm an old movie buff......the other day I was watching "Sabotuer"....an early WWII Alfred Hitchcock thriller. I probably wouldn't have paid any attention to it....as...what the heck...I grew up listening the dumb woman jokes, so they kinda go in one ear and out the other! LOL! (ironic huh?) Anyhow... because of this thread, I thought....now...I wonder if all you ladies who seriously believe that women were more respected in the 50s would say so if you paid close attention to how life REALLY was. Lucille Ball could not have made a fortune portraying an intelligent and responsible woman. Nor could have Gracie Allen; and history reports that both of these women were extremely savvy business women. Society in the 50's simply would NOT....ABSOLUTELY NOT support any female who did not follow the same rule that I was raised by......ACT DUMB or you'll NEVER get a man. LOL! My mother is STILL trying to push that garbage on me!

B-DancerM has hit the nail right on the head when she says:
I would also put forth the idea that what served as respect in the past was actual patronizing and disempowering women. Putting women in a particular social role where they lack choice and self-determination keeps them chained to the needs of others in an unbalanced way and in effect keeps them in perpetual childhood. Calling it respect doesn't change that.
We have only to look at EVERY film made in that era to see the reality of this statement. The OP in this thread began with naming June Cleaver and Harriet Nelson, but watch the episodes of either and see how often their intelligence was insulted. For the women today who think that women of the 50's were "respected"...and that everyone rallied 'round the "stay at home mom" and valued her "job". WRONG!!! She was referred to as someone who was too weak and too dumb to do anything ELSE. I didn't make this up.....and I certainly didn't write the manuscripts, so please don't shoot me for making the observation.
 Gangster Kitten
Joined: 4/3/2008
Msg: 209
Were women better off 50 years ago?
Posted: 9/24/2008 8:40:13 AM
The world isnt' any less f*cked up than it was 50 years ago, I think. Just from reading history, the types of f*cked up stuff that happens changes, but it's always happening.
200 years ago, marriage was a form of wealth and honor acquisition. Marry a wealthy, high-class woman, with a powerful respectable name - and you become wealthy powerful and respectful.

then a hundred years after that... Women were the 'home-makers' and men were the 'bread winners' of society. Nobody can really say how badly things went on back then for women, unless someone remembers being a wife back then.

There are just as many wife-beaters and misogynists now as there were then, as there were 2000 years ago. It all depends on the social paradigm working at the time, which favors one belief system or another. If the social paradigm is that men are the gods, and women are the submissive toys of the men, then that mentality germinates into the dominating gender - and allows for wife-beaters to flourish without reprecussions of society.

That paradigm wouldn't necessarily 'create' more wife beaters, just the more sociopathic types who do not beat their wives for fear of the law, would becomes abusers. Abusers wouldn't be spawned, unless it was encouraged by the society to do so.

Well, depending on the extremity of the paradigm. Women these days have options, as many have said, so they don't have to take abusive situations. Conversely, the other things that went along with society those times... such as the man paying for everything, or expecting to have to support onesself have changed. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing.

I think 'better off' is a loose way to put it - at the very least. These days, it seems that both gender have a more equal burden of having someone with more money and more power, screwing them everytime they buy gas, or lettuce at a grocery store - or are poor with no way to get their child into college.

Gender equality is fleshing itself out - while not there yet - it's making progress. Our problems these days are more socio-economic and political in scope.
 duckling
Joined: 2/28/2006
Msg: 211
Were women better off 50 years ago?
Posted: 9/24/2008 9:22:16 AM
It's kind of a catch 22. Although women's rites have come a long way since 1950, family values and the economic impact on society as a whole has deteriorated. Both parents working has become the norm and the price of a home or a car has doubled as a result of dual incomes. These days women have far more opportunity to work a well paying job or advance to senior management, and professional women are given greater respect and taken more seriously than 50 years ago. The one option that women seem to have lost is being able to stay home and raise a family. I guess they still could do that, but unless they're heiress's or the family income is extremely high the family has to sacrifice a lot of things we value in order to do that. I'm not saying that the 50's or 2008 is better or worse, just that times are really different. Like most things, some of the changes are good, and some have been detrimental.
 cedar77
Joined: 7/17/2006
Msg: 224
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Were women better off 50 years ago?
Posted: 9/24/2008 10:08:24 PM

If you'll notice, I laid most of the blame at the feet of the feminists. They pulled the rug out from under men, so to speak. Unfortunately it is the women that don't follow their militant beliefs that are paying the price. The later day fems have done their damndest to neuter the modern American male and then whine and complain that there aren't any 'real' men left. Of course there aren't many left: you domesticated half of them and belittled the rest into submission.
Oh for the love of God!! pick one! If women want a 'real' man then they need to stop trying to be one themselves.


I agree .
I would add that there is a big difference between how feminists have depicted women of fifty years ago , and what women were actually like .
When I look at my grandmothers , great aunts etc. .....they were very strong women . Stronger than modern feminist inspired women .
Also , they were not subservient to their husbands !

To be fair , modern men also have not faired well . I think that men have been cowed into political correctness and are sadly lacking in back bone in various ways ...
Men allowed that to happen to themselves . You can't only blame feminism.


 GoneSailinBabe
Joined: 7/6/2008
Msg: 230
Were women better off 50 years ago?
Posted: 9/25/2008 1:21:20 PM

but the treatment and respect for women has drastically dropped...from both men and other women


I think the feminist movement was a necessity. It enlightened women and enabled them to be educated.

I think it also went too far.

We (humans) appear to not have the ability to control our own needs and wants. In all things excess is the desired goal.

Temperence in all things means contentment.

Women are more respected.
Men are less respected and more emasculated.
Home are less successful.
Divorce is higher.
Children are more fat and less happy.

These things are all the results of what society demanded.

Decades from now - what will we have made and left behind?
It's terrifying.

I have been the Vice President of a large insurance company's software development division, with 168 employees reporting to me, controlled a $6 billion dollar 5 year budget, while raising two sons ages 8 and 9, commuting two hours every day, working 120 hours each week and flying from here to there for business trips and driving from here to there for little league games.

I tried to do it all.

But nothing satisfied me as much as raising my sons. Tending my garden. Building my own home, and nesting in it.

I may be modern woman and able to do everything a man can
and sometimes even MORE than some men can
but in my heart I am my grandmother's granddaughter.

Finding where I belong isn't easy.
Making a place where I am ok - is what I attempt.
Loving a man who will be beside me regardless of which woman I am at that moment in time?

Priceless.
 cedar77
Joined: 7/17/2006
Msg: 235
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Were women better off 50 years ago?
Posted: 9/25/2008 10:58:20 PM

Frost bite on our legs was common. And the worst memory 46 years ago was a woman who was being choked in a parked car. I was 12 years old, on my bike and frantic to help her. Many people were gathered around the incident doing nothing. Finally, the police arrived and I was relieved...until they said "Awe, it's his wife." and they left. The memory was indelible.



I may be a working stiff but at least my boss pays me well and I spend my money as I please instead of having to work all hours god sends in the home with no contraception having baby after baby - worn out by my forties and having to ask my husband for every penny if there was any left over at all.

Gimme today over yesterday any time


Is that what life was like for your grandmas ...your great grandmas and all of your female relatives of the past ? Were your male relatives , of the past , monsters?
I really don't think so !
It's kind of freaky how feminism has brain washed women into the cult on a massive scale.
Times were different , that is for sure , but come on ! ....let's be real here.

Ps . It has never been acceptable to send girls off in the cold to get frost bite on their legs or to choke your wife , although , now it seems it has become acceptable to cut your hubbies winky off and throw it out the car window (Bobbit). And it's ok to kill "Earl" according to the dixie chicks. In general , men have become targets for reprisal by various means in our mainstream feminized culture. ( man bashing)

IMO....things needed to evolve in society and would have regardless , but , having been taken to the extreme by feminism , neither women nor men are better off than fifty years ago.
 Rythmn
Joined: 1/21/2006
Msg: 236
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Were women better off 50 years ago?
Posted: 9/25/2008 11:27:15 PM
i don't think pof represents men and women of today. if it does, we are in a lot of trouble and we might as well give up even trying to find a decent mate. so many seemingly hateful and bitter people or maybe just the "shock" of it all, seems to make the proportion that much higher.

i was in the era of feminism (60's) and for the most part, there was no anti male rhetoric, at least in my group of nyc friends. men and women were supportive of one another, sort of like the working classes were supportive of one another. the young men i knew were proud of us. and we were proud of them. we were idealistic and marched to what we believed in. i remember the chicago riots, fighting the southern challenges and sure, there were egos involved, but in the end, there was some sort of energy that appears to be missing today. perhaps we were more innocent.

people fought for migrant rights and caesar chavez was a hero, as was martin luther king. we had peace marches and met in nyc crowded rooms and coffee shops, buzzing with potential. the only thing i do regret was the way we treated the viet nam vets. i did not do that personally and in fact, was writing many letters to the guys i knew who were out in the trenches, but i was naive. and maybe i am now.

i hope not. i think every era has it's pluses and minuses for different people. i figure i am given "stuff" or raw material in order to try to shape it into something "good". i see the bad, but i try to work on the good. however, i will admit that it is very hard at my age, to see things crumbling. i guess i miss the romanticism and the hope and the passion to make things better.

i am in a much better place professionally and financially than i would have been in the 50's. but many are not. i've viewed it as my responsiblity to share my resources with others. however, it is getting to be very lonely and i guess back then it would be lonely, even if i were in a loveless marriage. BUT, the expectations of the 60's, which followed the fifties, when i was a child, have somewhat made some of us in a weaker position when dealing with the 2,000's. well, at least we have our dreams. and the kkk stuff back then is enough to curl anyone's hair. the stories my friends have told me, at least make the work we did back then, worth it all. we have some good stuff to be proud of. and i hope my kids have similar pride in their accomplishments over the years. it will be a different world though.
 cedar77
Joined: 7/17/2006
Msg: 237
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Were women better off 50 years ago?
Posted: 9/25/2008 11:44:53 PM

we have some good stuff to be proud of. and i hope my kids have similar pride in their accomplishments over the years. it will be a different world though.


The country is practically bankrupt and in a war that most despise. Kids are alienated from their parents , if the parents are together at all . The gap between rich and poor has never been so great and the answer is always more of the same failed and hopeless socialism/welfare state.
Education is in shambles and the culture is a cesspool of degeneracy. Men and women are alienated and at odds , like never before .
The past and traditions have been demonised as evil , and a prosperous and healthy culture has been replaced with greedy materialism , demagoguery and division with all of those wonderful "isms".

The culture war was fought and won , and society my not survive the outcome.
Liberals of the sixties must be feeling ....."what have we done ?" Or " what the %^$# went wrong? "
They aren't proud of their "accomplishments "..are they ?



 Rythmn
Joined: 1/21/2006
Msg: 238
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Were women better off 50 years ago?
Posted: 9/26/2008 2:06:43 AM
since the quote above is mine, i assume the words are directed at me. so this is my response. it will not lead to more, as i find it futile when i witness such arrogance. my energy goes to where it does good for me or for someone else. but not to fuel toxic fires.

actually "i am" quite proud and my children are not alienated to the degree that they were when i found them. you are stating your reality and your paradigm. i doubt it would have been different (for you) if women were back in the 1950's! unless of course you have suffered some sort of personal affliction dealt to you by all the women of the western world from the 60's to date, united and all concerned about you individually. i kind of doubt that you are that important to them. maybe one or two? well, its sad if no woman has ever given you some solace, in the course of pursuing her own individuality and human rights. however, it is never too late!

my children lived in a third world country and now have a fighting chance. one was almost dead when found. they were starved and tortured. at least the boy is alive and sadly it is three women (me and his sisters), who continue to not give up on him. never could get a male mentor to bother. always had to pay for any attention rendered him. when my kids came to me in their teens seven years ago, they could not multiply, now they are in college.

so maybe the fat countries won't be as fat, and maybe you won't have two tv sets, but maybe the rest of the world needs to get a "piece of the action". and the fact is that what drives me is the world i grew up in: the 60's. because without dreams, there is no hope. without hope, nobody bothers.

look to your accomplishments aside from what you do for "YOU"! because like it or not, the world is an aggregate of human greed and human love. only an egomaniac or a narcissist can assert that s/he is not responsible for a piece of it all. or that she or he is exempt from trying. if you have it in for women, do something for the men besides whine. help a young man who has nobody else. it doesn't have to be a woman.

and as to the war, i may not have started it, but i reached out and hosted post trauma teens who saw their relatives blow up in bagdad. they have a standing invitation and i don't have to go onto a stranger's blog to find out what is happening there. only just a "couple" of kids (young "men" by the way) , but maybe if everyone did something for just a couple kids, there would be millions in way better shape.

so much easier to "whine and blame" and not "do". the current situation is a reflection of the very greedy times and very greedy people. but, i often marvel that we didn't blow ourselves up a long long time ago, in light of the "human nature" that you represent in your toxicity. yes, i feel angry and sad very often at what goes on. but i don't sit in it, i get up off my duff. if we go down, at least i'll go down doing something. maybe that came from being given opportunity as a woman, that i would not have had in the 40's. i say that, because even in the 50's , my parents gave me hope and always assumed i would be both a professional and a mom.

so, maybe you should "be a man" instead of fretting and whining about the "women". children pass the "heat" and "blame' onto others, not functional adults. quite frankly there are quite a large number of "men" and "women" who have had their share of hard times and somehow have the inner wherewithall to "live life" and "share" with other members of their sex, the opposite sex, other countries and most importantly children. maybe we cannot keep evil out, but we can keep it in some sort of balance. but balance is not always in an individual's interest, let alone the usa or canada for that matter. so take a deep breath and try to find the silver lining and if you cannot, START SEWING.
 cedar77
Joined: 7/17/2006
Msg: 240
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Were women better off 50 years ago?
Posted: 9/26/2008 10:18:46 AM
serenitycw
I was NOT blaming you personally for the state of the world. I'm sure that you have done what you feel is good.
My point was in keeping with " are women better off..... ? " and the fact that you seem to assert that liberalism was a positive development and something to be proud of. I simply feel that , as a whole , it was NOT.
I don't have all the answers , but , I am able to form an opinion on what is good for society and what is destructive .... surely anyone with an open and clear thinking mind can compare the present to the not so distant past .
If you call my criticism toxic or whining or blaming , then , so be it.

PS.
Men hold just as much ( or more ) responsibility for our sad state of affairs as do women , for in the end , it was "greedy" , meglomaniac , elite men who promoted/enabled destructive "social revolutions" i .e . "feminism" .

Soul Union ....
There are way too few who think like you do.
 daynadaze
Joined: 2/11/2008
Msg: 247
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Were women better off 50 years ago?
Posted: 9/26/2008 12:37:30 PM
If you think there was some pie-in-the-sky better treatment of women (in general) in the 50s that isn't there now, then you must be watching old TV shows because you sure never lived in that era. During anytime in history when human beings had less rights, less freedoms, could be controlled, were second class citizen, a person would have to be nuts or a bigot to think the lesser-seen group of people had it better.

 grizzelda
Joined: 6/25/2006
Msg: 250
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Were women better off 50 years ago?
Posted: 9/26/2008 12:56:39 PM
Well I think you would be hard presses to find someone on this planet that has NOT been disrespected at some point, man or woman..... I find the thought that a woman should be treated differently an odd concept. Are we poor women somehow less able to handle harsh words? Are we less able to speak our mind when we are treated poorly? Are we not capable of living in this world, or is it too harsh for our delicate minds? Frankly, I think the only women that complain about having to live in this "new" world where we have the same rights and responsibilities are the woman that dont have the skills required. Much like the men that complain about how feminism ruined their lives, dont have the skills to attract women so they would only have been successful in the 50's era, where a woman's choice was severely limited and was made based on desperation.
 jackster121
Joined: 9/2/2008
Msg: 252
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Were women better off 50 years ago?
Posted: 9/26/2008 1:38:57 PM
My mother, was a mother and wife in the 50's. She says she hated women's lib. Her take is women had it good and screwed it up. She wanted to get a pert-time job once and my Dad (a great guy, BTW) said I am the income earner in this house, no wife of mine will work. It sounds neadrathal, but it was the way of the time. The only woman who worked on our block was a divorced (EGAD !) mother who taught elementary school.
All of the ladies belonged to club and sunned in the yard together daily.
 Ron9
Joined: 8/10/2004
Msg: 255
Were women better off 50 years ago?
Posted: 9/26/2008 2:16:11 PM
"Were women better off 50 years ago?" Maybe - maybe not.

Big business simply loved it .............

-------------

I think females are equal in every way. They should get equal pay for the same job/duties. They should have all the opportunities that any man has.

-------------

So does big business - they love it.

There is also something that most people never think about.

If - big business had not been behind this push (in the background but behind it)

A nice new Chevy would today cost $10,000 instead of $30,000.

A nice middle class house would cost 50-60 thousand and not $200.000.

The market charges what they can get by with. We were forced (tricked) into two household income ......... and it was cleverly brought about by big business.

--------

There is something else many people do not realize. It is NOT equal pay ..... it is STILL the greed of big business.

Big business laid off Jim. Jim had been there 20 years and his income was getting up there.

Now Sherry has Jim's old job. Sherry gets 1/3 of what Jim was getting paid.

Big business loves it. Sherry's husband got replaced and now can't find a job - is Sherry's family better off or not?

I've been a headhunter for 35 years ......... I simply KNOW this has gone on - for a fact.
--------

The family unit has now been wooed past the limits of even a two income family.

Bailout anyone?

What is next - three income families?

How long before we need a four income family?
 musicianfriend
Joined: 7/23/2007
Msg: 257
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Were women better off 50 years ago?
Posted: 9/27/2008 4:26:39 AM
I see that women are not necessarily treated with disrespect...but want to say that maybe the men are treating the women like other men.....When Men and women compete....the woman has to be more masculine to compete with a man ....so he begins to treat her like he would another man/competetor..a rival..

I bet if you look feminine...and behave in a 'soft' manner...a man will treat you with respect....I do believe they do enjoy being gentlemen...

I am very disturbed that someone feels its not necessary to get married "these days"..

I think it would be the right thing to do if you have a family..it brings respect and honor to your family..a sense of bond...a contract....a commitment that you cant get out of easy...dedicated...a promise...you all have the same names....a clan.... a family...making an oath......but whatever .

Be careful what you choose...cause if you wait too long....you will long for what you mistakenly missed out on.

Alot of changes these days....changing all the traditions and all....I wonder if things are working out?...I wonder if we are better off today than we used to be...when kids got to be with their mom all day..and probably some cousins too. They were their parents entire focus...the children and the home was moms job.

I did that...It was awesome...


Its all a matter of perspective...but there is still a foundation that has to be there or nothing will stand.
 musicianfriend
Joined: 7/23/2007
Msg: 258
view profile
History
Were women better off 50 years ago?
Posted: 9/27/2008 4:37:30 AM
Yes....I think women were better off 50 years ago..and so were children....old people...and women and men...people were closer to each other due to not so much divorce...There was someone to do the job of mother are caretaker when needed for family members...She was the glue that kept families together...Everyone was close to each other which created love between the family and dedication to one another....this used to be a normal way of life...were losing it...so sad.

I just do not believe money is as important as some...also...too much debt and too many cars...If people didnt want so much stuff....didnt live in huge houses beyond their means...would drive older cars..saves on dmv cost..and insurance cost...cook food at home instead of going out so much.....the mom could stay home...Too much money everywhere...everthings about more and more money...

I think alot of women would love to be homemakers...moms...daughters..help their families...The part about feminism I dont like is the part where they have taught so many young girls that homemaking and mothering are something they should dread instead of embrace......I think thats were they just went to far...The birth of narcissim in females...

I I got tired of hearing my feminist friends talk to me as if I had no job...Alot of them had Sat and Sun off...I didnt...I was a mom. It was fine with me....I liked my job.


 verygreeneyez
Joined: 3/15/2006
Msg: 265
Were women better off 50 years ago?
Posted: 9/27/2008 3:22:07 PM
I often times wonder, when you listen to all the feminists rant and rave about how women are under represented in, say, position of CEO for companies, in the Math and Science industries...

They NEVER talk about how women are under represtented in Garbage Collection, or Sewage Treatment Plants... I wonder, why is that??

This is the age of complete equality... right??

LOL ~ great point!!


Women 50 yrs ago knew how to please their men. The women today are about as clueless as a box of rocks. They are more sexually active and promiscious and don't care who they sleep with or who knocks them up. They are by far one of the dumbest generation of women to come along in a long time.

I think that women of 30 yrs ago knew to how take care of their men. The were also afforded the opportunity/luxury to stay at home and do so. (And I can assure you, not all women today are clueless ~ some of us can take care of our man and please him, and work full-time and raise good kids.)


No question,women are better off today.What a woman chooses from the options set before her might not be a smart choice,but it's her choice.That is the difference between now and the 1950's,choice.

Yes, thanks to the "equality" that was requested and granted (***cough cough***) I got the choice to go to corporate America, work entirely too many hours, spend entirely too many evenings studying to further my education so I could advance in corporate America, only to go to work each day to make someone else crazy amounts of money, to go home too tired to do much more than "deal" with my son, dinner, laundry and maybe a hot bath if I was lucky. Just think of all that I missed with that "choice." My son's first word, his first Christmas pagent, and his first tooth fell out while I was at work. Yep ~ wow I feel pretty fortunate about all that. I had the choice between eating/housing/clothing/quality education for my child and healthcare or actually being intimately involved in my son's tender years. Sometimes we don't have a choice ~ even if on the outside it looks like we "chose" what we did. I wanted to stay at home and have children. Guess I was drafted into the "movement" and deemed a feminist team player instead.


Many of the social ills facing women(in the west) is due to the rejection of the feminist ethic.

Seriously??? Those that didn't embrace something they don't believe in are now at fault for "social ills" of the west. Oh dear me.


When you see the struggle of women around the world to acheive equality and the sacrifices they are forced to make(many of them are living in the "1950's "so to speak)the ot goes from being stupid,to outright insulting.
The most interesting thing about this thread,is how many men who hate women are on this site,just waiting to hijack the ot and turn it into a rant about how awfull women are today(perhaps this is the abuse the op was talking about).

That happens in every thread. Misogomy and misandry are alive and well here. There are man-haters that post as well ~ it's best just to ignore those. They'll infect you if you don't.


In the 1950's less than 34% of all US college degrees were earned by women. In 2006 women earn 50% of undergrad and 70% of all graduate degrees.
That's progress.

Based on education and earnings, many women moved from from the working class (semi-skilled) to the middle class (skilled and highly skilled). These women have a 12% divorce rate.
That's progress.

Since the 1950's less than 15% of all US medical degrees were earned by women. In 2006 ....over 50% of all Pediatric physicians are women.
That's progress.

That's progress for the women who wanted to pursue those things. It's not nearly as one-sided as it might appear. Not all women who have degrees (even grad degrees) necessarily did so for equality (progress is entirely different than equality ~ which is the premise of the thread) ~ some of us did so because the other options were too bleak to consider.


The Equal Pay Act of 1963, equal pay for women.

That's why today ~ women earn $.77 to a man's $1.00 (I guess since women are considered the weaker sex in math and science many didn't figure we'd be able to see that statistic as "not necessarily fair.") Sigh.


The Civil Rights Act of 1964. prohibits hiring, promotion discrimination.

And, that is why I have a career. Because that Act isn't working any better than the EQA. (Must love the system, inact an act that will clearly NOT work so the Courts, lawyers, paralegals, clerks, law personnel, etc., etc., have plenty of work on their desks. It is the American way.)
~OT~ It's all perspective. This has been beaten down throats for so long that it's assumed none of us wanted to stay home and be a wife and mother. How sad is that? Those of us who would have prefered that route had to do what we had to do and no one was worried about our rights. No one started a movement to reverse things on my behalf because I missed out on the things in life that were much more important than the beautiful home I lived in and the wonderful car I drove. I missed out on the things money simply can not buy. If that's progress to so many ~ so be it. To each their own ~ not all of us feel the need to wear the Libber-banner ~ it did nothing for me but made me one of the many who lived on the world, not necessarily in it. Maybe not a bad thing for those who wanted that, but a terrible thing for those who didn't. It's all personal perspective. JMO
 verygreeneyez
Joined: 3/15/2006
Msg: 268
Were women better off 50 years ago?
Posted: 9/27/2008 4:03:37 PM

If you don't know what feminisim is,perhaps you shouldn't comment on it.You express yourself in a woefully under-educated way for someone who is a "ceo".Feminisim is not a political movement to force women out of the home.The candy-coated view of the '50's as some type of innocent utopia is so naive,it's laughable.Perhaps you should also ask a 90 year old black woman how great the 50's were.

I'm not really certain who you are commenting to here, I'm assuming me since I'm the only person disagreeing with you to this point. I was a tad confused since I don't see anyone here professing to be a CEO, and that does include me. I'm sorry you find no worth in traditional gender roles and the benefits of those. You are certainly entitled to see it your way, much as I am. And I've never been woeful. Not my style. Much too educated to view life through polly-anna-ish glasses and much too optimistic to place blame on others ~ such as you have done here today. But once again, we all see it how we choose. Good luck to ya.
 verygreeneyez
Joined: 3/15/2006
Msg: 276
Were women better off 50 years ago?
Posted: 9/27/2008 7:16:03 PM

Good post, except for this bit.

It's one of the things that is often quoted as 'fact', and in fact, it is fact, but the reasons for it being fact are never stated.

One of the main reasons is because of the choices women make rather than the assumption that men cause the discrepancy which is the reason most often given.

Continuing to state the $0.77 for every $1.00 is very misleading and really tends to weaken women's position, in my opinion.

Thank you. And I agree, rather weak, but I felt I had to sort of do a little defending at some point. That was the only "fact" I felt might apply since I clearly do not subscribe the the idiology that we are better off today than xxx number of years ago. And you are correct. I did (at one time) earn as much money as many of my male peers, more than some of them, or at the very least, competitively in between. However, one day I realized I was miserable. So, I took the proverbial cut in pay to downsize my own professional situation. That was indeed, my choice. Was it the right choice? For me, definitely. You'll never catch me blaming anyone but me for the choice I made. My son came first. My "equality" wasn't needed in the work place or the checkbook, because I was a priority at home, not just an equal. That was my reward. Again, it's all how you want to view it I suppose!!
 ________
Joined: 12/24/2006
Msg: 288
Were women better off 50 years ago?
Posted: 9/28/2008 7:47:00 AM
Only someone totally removed from the reality of those days could frame such a question. Undo all the progress toward gender equality of the last half-century......... Even up to the early 1970s there was little or no notion of complete equality under the law for property in divorce!!!!!!!!!!!! You are a lot more "dedicated" to your partner when the prospect of losing everything including the roof over your head looms large.
 ________
Joined: 12/24/2006
Msg: 293
Were women better off 50 years ago?
Posted: 9/28/2008 9:27:49 AM
Given that there's a significantly higher female enrollment in Medicine today than male --- I think it is going to be increasing more difficult to make the career choices case. I am not so sure high-risk always means highest pay. (Bricklayers, coal miner, tree trimmers, farmer, flag person, fork lift operator, window installer are ranked as some of the highest risk occupations.)
 verygreeneyez
Joined: 3/15/2006
Msg: 311
Were women better off 50 years ago?
Posted: 9/28/2008 5:19:08 PM
dashriprock, you just secured the fact that you will never get another date off this website.

Really??? I think it's only wise to speak for one's self. If I wasn't happily involved with a traditional-gender-role man (yes, they do exist ~ thankfully) and if I were to have done nothing more than read this particular thread (because I didn't view his profile, I don't know his age, his height, his ... well ... anything) I'd probably be more than willing to venture into his head and see what else is in there. Guess there are two points to that: I'm not nearly as shallow as I once was, and I respect that he has his opinion no matter who agrees or does not.

One thing is for sure. If you want the sexes to continue to complain about each other, keep doing what is not working now, nor has never worked: blame the other.

I could have skipped all the nonsense and just read this. Basically the only statement in this entire thread that really means much in the "real world." (Hate and blame ~~ such ugliness.) And yes, this thread is filled with both things in both directions. Misogamy and misandry are alive and well. It's clearly obvious that for some, this is excruciatingly threatening. Why??? No one here is right or wrong. No one here has to even be real. I have to wonder though ~ how many of these intelligent men and women would likely not be so "tough" if they met someone they deemed "quality" that had the opposing viewpoint? I'll bet they'd still meet that person. It's so funny when you use these forums and pretend they apply to the real world. They really ..... don't. JMO
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