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 etherealone
Joined: 4/8/2007
Msg: 42
perpetual energy and other promising inventionsPage 2 of 10    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10)
agreed. like is said, you can get MORE energy than what you put it. it is really all just an energy transfer.
 Boomstrike
Joined: 12/1/2007
Msg: 43
perpetual energy and other promising inventions
Posted: 3/20/2008 3:10:19 PM

You can get more energy out of a system than you put in. It has already been accomplished.

Can you provide a reference to when this was done, on planet earth please.
 etherealone
Joined: 4/8/2007
Msg: 44
perpetual energy and other promising inventions
Posted: 3/20/2008 3:30:29 PM
yes it happened on earth.........

if you pass an electric current through two electrodes, platinum and palladium inside heavy water using lithium salts, you get an energy output almost 10 times that which you put in.
 Boomstrike
Joined: 12/1/2007
Msg: 45
perpetual energy and other promising inventions
Posted: 3/20/2008 3:47:12 PM
What you're describing is a form of cold fusion. Nuclear reactions do not violate the first law of thermodynamics because matter is energy (E=MC^2). It's simply a conversion of matter into energy. The nuclear reactors that exist today do not extract more energy than what is put in.
 etherealone
Joined: 4/8/2007
Msg: 46
perpetual energy and other promising inventions
Posted: 3/20/2008 6:54:30 PM
you win the prize!

your right, it is a form of cold fusion. you asked me to describe how to create more energy than what has been put into it, and that is one way to do it.

anytime you create energy you are converting. that is a given. the basic principles tell us that it is just basic conversion. but the method i described did answer your question didn't it?

that is just one way. TOMI is another. The YUSMR system can produce two kilowatts of heat per one kilowatt of consumed energy. that has been patented in many countries.
 Boomstrike
Joined: 12/1/2007
Msg: 47
perpetual energy and other promising inventions
Posted: 3/21/2008 4:53:52 AM

your right, it is a form of cold fusion. you asked me to describe how to create more energy than what has been put into it, and that is one way to do it.

If you count the matter in the system , you're getting far less energy out than what is put in. The first law of thermodynamics has never been proven wrong.
 merrlinn1
Joined: 2/8/2006
Msg: 48
perpetual energy and other promising inventions
Posted: 3/21/2008 5:23:34 AM
I believe Arnold sold his Hummer for a hybrid vehicle after watching "An inconvenient
truth"

Buckminister Fuller has had his building designs used by the military
and some of his discoveries have been accepted by science...eg bucky balls.

For all the scientists and inventors out there...
A company called "Advanced energy research organisation LLC"
are offering US$200 000 up front licensing award and a $5 million two
year royalty program for a new energy breakthrough.
This company based in Virginia is leading a world wide search for an
out of the box invention for inventors and scientists who have a provable
energy generation invention.
They are also offering full protection,support and world wide exposure.
check out their URL for further details.

This could cetainly be the tipping point.
www.aero2012.com
 etherealone
Joined: 4/8/2007
Msg: 49
perpetual energy and other promising inventions
Posted: 3/21/2008 11:05:23 AM
well, this is not what i was trying to point out. you dont need a basic physics course. the point was an energy conversion/transfer that had a huge out-put.

you can measure whatever you want. you not factoring other laws that make this a viable and valid point, a system worth pursuing and researching more.

go back to the black board and factor in work ratio's and you will understand why it is pursued, but please, you dont need to state obvious laws.
 Boomstrike
Joined: 12/1/2007
Msg: 50
perpetual energy and other promising inventions
Posted: 3/21/2008 3:21:35 PM
No argument there etherealone. Nuclear fusion is the holy grail that can transform humankind with virtually limitless clean energy. A small amount of matter is converted to a huge amount of energy.
 etherealone
Joined: 4/8/2007
Msg: 51
perpetual energy and other promising inventions
Posted: 3/21/2008 3:41:14 PM
well, this is really the first step. i am glad to see someone excited about it, most people dismiss it.

imagine being able to do this? the implication on not only our environment, but the way we travel, the way not feud over fuel (what will we fight about then), the sociological implications are amazing! imagine a world where each country has its own ability to have clean, fuel. this would eventually erase debts, foster peace by sharing technology.

not to mention saving money and time would leave much over for other researches, such as space exploration, which i believe is so important.

very many scientist believe we shall see these things (the advent of free fuel) very well on way, before you and my life time is over. this is a very exciting time for science right now!
 Boomstrike
Joined: 12/1/2007
Msg: 52
perpetual energy and other promising inventions
Posted: 3/21/2008 4:57:20 PM
I'm not as optimistic as you are about fusion energy etherealone. Serious research has been going on for many years but major technological walls exist that may require another Einstein to break down. The potential of fusion energy has remained a dream to scientists for a century or so now. We have not been able to adequately contain "hot" fusion reactions, even though the hydrogen bomb (the first human fusion reaction) was developed many years ago. We don't have the luxury of using gravity for containment as the universe's stars do. Cold fusion has been contreversial as to whether it has ever been achieved. The method you described has not been proven to actually work. For now, humanity will have to make do with the energy sources provided by the sun's fusion (almost every source of energy we have), the heat within our planet, and nuclear fission.
 basher2
Joined: 12/11/2007
Msg: 53
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History
perpetual energy and other promising inventions
Posted: 3/22/2008 9:21:49 PM

I'm not as optimistic as you are about fusion energy etherealone. Serious research has been going on for many years but major technological walls exist that may require another Einstein to break down. The potential of fusion energy has remained a dream to scientists for a century or so now. We have not been able to adequately contain "hot" fusion reactions, even though the hydrogen bomb (the first human fusion reaction) was developed many years ago. We don't have the luxury of using gravity for containment as the universe's stars do. Cold fusion has been contreversial as to whether it has ever been achieved. The method you described has not been proven to actually work. For now, humanity will have to make do with the energy sources provided by the sun's fusion (almost every source of energy we have), the heat within our planet, and nuclear fission.

Wow, fusion! If anyone has questions about what it is, and how can it be used to produce energy, take a look at this website.
http://www.iter.org/
They are building a fusion reactor in Europe. I believe they expect to begin construction within 10 years. Fusion has been proven to work. It is being done in the basement of the physics building at my university right now. They are using a TOKOMAK plasma fusion reactor. It still remains to be demonstrated that it can be done in a self-sustaining way. What I mean is that all plasma fusion reactors, at present, are not able to handle enough plasma to maintain a reaction. Also, the amount of current needed in order to contain the matter (magnetically) in close enough proximity to achieve fusion causes some major difficulty.

So, as for perpetual motion, and the laws of thermodynamics, I'm afraid, that a perpetual motion machine completely breaks the second law. This law is spoken about a lot, often without any definition, so I'll try to provide one. It may not seem directly relavent, but please bear with me.
"It is impossible to produce mechanical work from a heat engine with a heat source, and sink, at the same temperature." What does this have to do with perpetual motion? Well, with a lot of clever manipulation, it introduces to us the idea of entropy, which provides a forward direction for time, and introduces the idea of irreversibility. This along with the first law, which tells us that the heat added to a system must either go to producing mechanical work, or increasing the internal energy of the system, leaves us with the inescapable fact that in order to produce mechanical work, some form of energy must be added to a system. What you are left with is finding better sources of energy, and better efficiencies.

A quick comment about alternate energy sources. First off, I am a supporter of their development. Here is an example, however, of what some drawbacks to certain ideas are, and an obstacle which needs to be overcome in order to see these ideas realized.

In order to produce a large-scale wind electric turbine, with, for the sake of this example, an expected life of 50 years, there is a huge output of energy required. Steel needs to be made, and formed (or carbon fibre) huge amounts of energy are used to assemble the windmill, the electrical generator, and to connect it to the power grid. It has been calculated that it takes up to 30 years for the windmill to have produced more energy than was required to make it! So, do you give up? No, but it shows that, with all of these alternate energy sources, we need to look at costs as well (by the way, I didn't mention all of the carbon emission caused in order to produce the windmill). The worst offender here is solar radiation, as much more energy is required than is currently expected to be generated. This is why tide-based energy generation is still far-off, wind energy is uncommon, and hydrogen is not a common form of vehicular fuel (here, the intricate design required to store hydrogen gas is the major drawback)

For the record, cold fusion has never been demonstrated. Several groups have thought they did, but it hasn't been done, yet.
 Pilgrim2
Joined: 7/9/2006
Msg: 54
perpetual energy and other promising inventions
Posted: 3/23/2008 8:50:36 AM
Just joining ; Comments
This thread was started by 'novascotialass' who was saddened by the opposition to someone who, though perhaps not thoroughly informed, had good intentions. I would draw from that that we would do well to support each other emotionally and financially so that all our contributions can be nurtured and collected. Perhaps 'love' is the fuel for 'perpetual' motion, whether it be in the area of human potential, or in the area of the reason for various mechanical developments. It certainly reduces 'friction', the bane of perpetual motion, as well as providing the impetus for activity, cerebral or otherwise. If we can respect and work with each others' abilities and strengths, we can bring technology and responsibility together.
However, in the limited field of Newtonian physics, I suppose we would have more clarity and direction if we spoke in terms of energy conversion rather than perpetual motion, since all machines and processes seem to derive thier operating energy from outside of themselves, whether solar in terms of immediate as in real time solar collection, wind, tidal; stored, as in intermediate ground thermal, or ancient as in deep ground thermal or fossil fuels.
I'm impressed by the knowledgable people this thread is collecting: Etherealone, Boomstrike, etc.
Aknight..whatever, Your magnetic shielding idea is interesting..cogitating on it.

Daniel
 etherealone
Joined: 4/8/2007
Msg: 55
perpetual energy and other promising inventions
Posted: 3/23/2008 11:49:32 AM
http://www.infinite-energy.com/images/pdfs/mitcfreport.pdf

this mag is based out of new hamshire and seems to have the same faith in MIT as i do.....lol

its worth reading for sure. extremely interesting and a valuable fight for sure.

not sure who said that cold fusion has not been proven, but to some scientist it has been proven. 100 years ago, no one could see splitting the atom. but we have now. the scientific laws THEN told us we could not do such things, such things did not even exist.

as well, no one has brought up the effect of neutrinos! another set of circumstances that we have not yet discussed.

i have complete respect and do believe in the laws of physics BUT i also do believe in pushing these laws. how the hell else do we come up with anything? i believe in pushing our perceived boundaries to the limit.
 Boomstrike
Joined: 12/1/2007
Msg: 56
perpetual energy and other promising inventions
Posted: 3/23/2008 5:37:33 PM

i believe in pushing our perceived boundaries to the limit.

I agree. When I see the word "impossible" written in this thread, I cringe. The laws of thermodynamics, or any other current physics, do not make anything impossible. Our knowledge has plenty of room for expansion.
 merrlinn1
Joined: 2/8/2006
Msg: 58
perpetual energy and other promising inventions
Posted: 3/31/2008 3:32:35 AM
To Basher 2
You make some relevent coments but your assertion about cold fusion
is not accurate.
Cold has been demonstrated a number times especially since the Fleishman and Ponds
outcry.
A few years after that happened,i went to a lecture by a leading chemist from the UK
who was posted at a university in Texas.
He replicated the Fleishman and Ponds experiment to what he said was "demonstrated enough success to warrant serious study".
He tried to get his colleagues interested but it fell on deaf ears.
Ironically the Japanese have funded Fleishamn and Ponds in Europe since.
I believe a Japanese company now sells cold fusion generators.
 basher2
Joined: 12/11/2007
Msg: 59
view profile
History
perpetual energy and other promising inventions
Posted: 3/31/2008 12:05:48 PM

You make some relevent coments but your assertion about cold fusion
is not accurate.
Cold has been demonstrated a number times especially since the Fleishman and Ponds
outcry.

Nope, it turns out it wasn't very accurate, was it. I've some researching on the topic, and come across some material supporting cold fusion, some trying to refute it. What seems to be consistent is the inconsistency of the success of the process. There also seems to be a lack of a solid theory of how atoms are put close enough together to fuse. The amounts of helium generated, furthermore, aren't significant compared to the experimental uncertainty, so it has been very difficult to say with certainty whether it is taking place.
Here's a website in support of LENR (low-energy nuclear reactions)
http://www.newenergytimes.com/Library/2006Storms-CFForDummies.htm#phonons
It does seem, however, that the results generated do warrant serious study. It may turn out that this area of research could involve something other than fusion (in which case it could be an entirely different way of obtaining energy), or it could be fusion, which may be harnessed as an energy source. I saw information about a company in California called Clean Energy Technology (CETI), which, at one time sold a unit to researchers which, it was claimed, reproduced the "cold-fusion" results. It, however, was inconsistent, and they apparently no longer sell them. They did, however, manage to obtain patents. I would be very interested in seeing any information about this Japanese company, if they are indeed selling, or proposing to sell, cold fusion generators.
Side note: I am attending a symposium on alternative energy sources next week. If I learn anything pertinent, I'll try to post it.
 desertrhino
Joined: 11/30/2007
Msg: 68
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History
perpetual energy and other promising inventions
Posted: 8/25/2008 4:04:16 PM
Oh god, is Solomon spouting those "oh my God, why won't this DIE?" lies again?

I think you need to consider posting in the Religion/Supernatural forum any time you feel compelled to post this crap. Stan Meyer was a con man, a liar, and a thief who could never produce even one iota of proof for his bullsh!t claims. At least his brother is sane and honest... he doesn't make any claims that his torch technology is magical, just that it works well and safely.
 desertrhino
Joined: 11/30/2007
Msg: 69
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perpetual energy and other promising inventions
Posted: 8/25/2008 6:29:05 PM
Ummm, okay, but it's a completely different technology than what the other hydrogen posters are talking about. Fusion is not perpetual motion because you're converting a certain amount of the mass of the particles into energy.

I really have no idea what you're talking about with the platinum comment, though.
 desertrhino
Joined: 11/30/2007
Msg: 71
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perpetual energy and other promising inventions
Posted: 8/25/2008 10:01:14 PM

no thermodynamic violations, just super efficiency from the fundamental forces.


Completely and fundamentally flawed. i.e. "wrong."

The energy comes from the conversion of some of the mass of the nucleons involved (specifically, the released neutron, in the case of T-D fusion.)
 desertrhino
Joined: 11/30/2007
Msg: 74
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History
perpetual energy and other promising inventions
Posted: 8/26/2008 7:59:37 AM
Troll? *laughter*

In the context: "hydrogen is innefective as a combustible fuel, due to seperating it. unless u use platinum,which is expensive."

Platinum doesn't overcome the inherent inefficiency of splitting water then recombining it later, which is how your comment is phrased. It simply reduces the inefficiency of the combustion step. Besides which, pretty much every currently-used fuel cell design uses a platinum-group metal as a catalyst. You think adding platinum at higher cost is some unusual approach?

Nice approach to discussion, though... y'know, as long as you're throwing around that "childish" adjective. Grow up.
 desertrhino
Joined: 11/30/2007
Msg: 77
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perpetual energy and other promising inventions
Posted: 8/26/2008 3:29:39 PM
in fact, the ONLY rebuttal you had, was for my troll comment. no input on ANYTHING else.


Nope. I responded to the use of platinum, as well.

If you were capable of being a nicer person, you might get more conversation from people. Being online is not an open invitation to be rude. Have a nice day.
 abelian
Joined: 1/12/2008
Msg: 82
perpetual energy and other promising inventions
Posted: 9/3/2008 2:00:05 AM
If he found anything, he would be famous. There is no CABAL.
 abelian
Joined: 1/12/2008
Msg: 93
perpetual energy and other promising inventions
Posted: 9/4/2008 7:20:35 PM

So forget the BS, you're talking to somebody who knows the facts.


I'm game. Explain the so-called facts in mathematical terms that prove your assertion. If you know what you are talking about that should be trivial.
 abelian
Joined: 1/12/2008
Msg: 94
perpetual energy and other promising inventions
Posted: 9/4/2008 7:27:39 PM

There's much more to zero-point energy "sources", fusion, anti-gravity propulsion and other "concepts" than the population at large are allowed to be aware of from what I gather.


Feel free to point me toward a MATHEMATICAL treatise and I'll shoot it down. I've studied this (the real) shit and I know enough to spot bs, not to mention knowing who a number of the perennial bs-ers are.
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