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 Logikally
Joined: 2/18/2008
Msg: 16
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join the army and go to AfghanistanPage 5 of 10    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10)
Absolutely i would try and deter them. Who would want their kid put in any dangerous situation, much less as dangerous as that. If they were hell bent on going for the right reasons (ie. not cos it looks like fun) then so be it. If they have to do it, they have to do it but i would try and convince them not to as much as i could. This btw is coming from an Irishman with no kids who if i joined the Irish Army, i would be sent to some place like feckin Meath to make sure the Slane Music Festival goes ok or something like that but if i was in the position where it could happen, i would certainly try and talk them out of it.
 oggers
Joined: 5/10/2007
Msg: 21
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join the army and go to Afghanistan
Posted: 3/9/2008 4:43:14 AM
i think it was 1968 , but am not certain ..

But sadly there ARE people who join up and think its an easy life ... have we forgotten all of those people who suddenly realized at the outset of war that they were going to get shot at ?! And urban myth has it that some folks have even sued the Army for sending them to the front line to get shot at ( although that might be a Jack Dee line ..)

wtf ... the clue is in the name , people .. you have joined the ARMY , its not exactly a knitting circle !! Listen to Quo's " In The Army Now"
 bike mad
Joined: 3/21/2006
Msg: 28
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join the army and go to Afghanistan
Posted: 4/11/2008 1:54:04 PM
I did 5 years in the RAF (unique in the way it's the only service to send the Officers out to get shot at! ) and even though I didn't enjoy my term, I always encourage youngsters to join the Cadets and the RAF.
I would never advise people to join the infantry!
 Warrencraig
Joined: 8/30/2008
Msg: 60
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join the army and go to Afghanistan
Posted: 1/7/2009 7:26:35 PM
Will the anti-war bashers actually answer the OP's question???? This isnt a war bashing thread!!

Personally id discourage my kids from joining (when i have some lol) as it doesnt offer the same balance of life experience as it used to. I know army friends who are on pretty much back to back deployments and its wearing them down beyond what is reasonable for a career.

The forces still have a long way to go when it comes to looking after people, but unfortunately its only going to get worse as budgets are cut.

Maybe in the future if the active conflicts reduced in afghan and iraq and they wernt working the forces to breaking point then it may be a reasonable career in the future.
 pantsonfire
Joined: 7/19/2006
Msg: 64
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join the army and go to Afghanistan
Posted: 1/14/2009 11:43:23 AM
We buried a friend's son today .. Whatever the problems in Afghanistan and Iraq are, they really aren't worth the way Rob's mum looked today ...
 Warrencraig
Joined: 8/30/2008
Msg: 67
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join the army and go to Afghanistan
Posted: 1/15/2009 9:04:24 AM

Stop listening to the propoganda and learn to think for yourself.

You really think someone whos served in the armed forces in the places he has does NOT know how to think for himself?????

You clearly know very little about the armed forces. For a start UK armed forces want people to think for themselves and dont spout propaganda and quite frankly expect thier men to have a balanced opinion. We arent like the gunho "yeehaaa" american forces.

Any propoganda b*llshit goes straight out the window the second a bullet flies past your head.

You really think someone would still be stupid enough to listen to propaganda after watching some of thier best mates being killed or seriously hurt, not to mention the sheer injustice that goes on in Iraq and Afghan with the terrorists often killing thier own citizens. You really think after all that some one would still have one sided stupid opinions based on one sided propaganda??? I think you will find people whove been there and served there will have a far more balanced opinion than a casual observer like you.

Oh and you convieniently forget the propoganda fed to iraqis and afghans by some extremists. If you actually ever spoke to Iraqi people and Afghan people you will find that despite the extreme situations and extreme propoganda, most of them just want to get on with thier lives and earn a living. They dont want to be murdered and blown up by terrorists either.


Supposibly, 17 of the 19 highjakers came from SA...not from Afghanistan.
The London bombers supposibly came from LEEDS FFS!

Its not where someone comes from that matters, its what they believe in.

Osama bin laden came from Saudi but operated supposedly in afghan as did supposedly the main operation of Al quieda.

Such organisations are by their very definition secretive and hard to infiltrate and get ALL the facts.

Im not saying the US has got things right in afghan and iraq but even the americans dont go an invade a country on a whim screaming "yeehaaaaa" as they fire the tomohawks and drop the bombs!!!

I think you will find even the US government has admitted it didnt have solid proof for the iraq invasion. Now you go and find out how many military operations around the world operate on the basis of 100% solid proof?? same with police investigations and raids.

Now ask yourself if the iraqis really would be better off still under the power of Saddam??

There are more illegal training camps in the good old US of A than there ever was in Afghanistan.


check out the petro dollar cycle and the CIA opium trade.


Now go present some proof of this before attempting to present an arguement that sounds surprisingly similar to that of those "conspiracy thoery" obsessives.

Oh and make sure you dont beat up that old lady carry an umbrella. Chances are shes NOT a CIA spy trying to kill you with a poison equiped umbrella type weapon!!!!
 glennE23
Joined: 12/7/2008
Msg: 71
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join the army and go to Afghanistan
Posted: 1/15/2009 8:00:51 PM
Sorry MrGoodMan2.

Have you every heard of the Ottoman Empire, The Japanese Empire, North Korea.

Actually do you remember a war in 1973 when the Arabs attacked Irsrael.

The last 400 years have shown no-one is above territorial lust.

Lets see, who else, Argentina (the Falklands poulation are all Btitish).

Iraq, remember them.

Sorry mate know your history and I will listen.
 glennE23
Joined: 12/7/2008
Msg: 72
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join the army and go to Afghanistan
Posted: 1/15/2009 8:09:03 PM
Sorry get very irrate when people talk rubbish.

When I ws involved in the armed forces, we had something to fight. We had the Russians.

I could not imagine joing the armed forces now. They are social workers with targets on their heads and a lot of the population (me included doesn't support any of the wars they are in).

I got the hump when family members were sent to the Balkans. Afganistan could sink into the desert and I would not care.
 Warrencraig
Joined: 8/30/2008
Msg: 73
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join the army and go to Afghanistan
Posted: 1/15/2009 8:43:35 PM

After 6 months basic in the Dukes he was full of hatred for 'pakis'


That is NOT a reflection of the Armed Forces but a minority example of a few bad apples in an organisation that has spent a lot of time and effort in the last 10 years to break a former tradition of institutionalised discrimination.

For a start who ever has taught him to hate "pakis" and use such offensive terms is quite plainly ignorant as its not even an accurate racial slur for people in iraq and afghan!!!!

You will find extensive antidiscrimination policys in the forces as well as training for all ranks and rates starting from basic training and repeated during your career.


This is the mentality of the army. Break the boy to make the man.
Break the boy and you can make him believe anything you want.
It's an understandable way to work, afterall, most people aren't motivated to kill.
It costs a hell of a lot of money to train a soldier but if he can't pull the trigger it's not money well spent. Much better to make him hate.

20 years ago this may well have been the case.

The mentality is NOT to break people. Basic training is NOT designed to cause psychological damage. You make it sound like it is large scale psychological destruction and brain washing - yet again we are talking about servicemen/women NOT CIA/KGB assassins from the cold war!!

The British forces do NOT want troops full of hate. hate breeds anger which leads to clouded judgement which is more likely to get you killed

Yes the training is repetitive and intense, BUT that is to instil the training so it is almost automatic. It isnt to make them into psychopaths. The way you get an ordinary person trained in infantry techniques to pull the trigger is NOT through hate, but by teaching them to dehumanise the specific enemy soldier into a target and to practise this during exercises. I know this from training service men and running aspects of exercises needing the relevant training skills and knowledge to go with it.

Beyond that self preservation and self defence tends to take over.


You talk about proof....well, I asked first.
Try prove that 9/11 was concocted by Bin Laden.


I have already said there was no 100% proof. The evidence they had and the intelligence they had AT THE TIME was enough for the commanders at the time to believe on balance that the attacks were conducted by Bin Laden. The intelligence also showed that the Taliban were supporting them (or at the very least turning a blind eye) and that the main part of Bin ladens organisation was based in Afghanistan. Also the Taliban is hardly well known for human rights and looking after its citizens. The country was already shattered through decades of war (thats a different arguement!!) so removing the taliban from power and instigating a democracy serves both the people and also facilitates wiping out a terrorist organisation.


Please do check out some Vets websites and break free from your programming.


I will take that as the joke you intended it to be!!!
 horlix
Joined: 2/18/2008
Msg: 76
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join the army and go to Afghanistan
Posted: 1/16/2009 4:42:02 AM
I think most blokes join up for personal reasons rather than ideological ones. My dad was ten years in the Marines. He'd always wanted to be a soldier and when his home situation turned bad-**stard of a stepfather-he joined up.

Once in the field, it seems like professional pride-both in yourself and your unit- and looking out for yourself and your mates that are the motivating factors that make you fight.

I'd be interested on hearing what any ex-servicemen have to say on the subject.
 Warrencraig
Joined: 8/30/2008
Msg: 90
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join the army and go to Afghanistan
Posted: 1/20/2009 7:43:55 PM

yes the army doesn't seem to have the highest wages, but all your living and accomidation is much cheaper, when your out on duty you pay minimum of tax and see probably see alot more money than somebody earning a good few grand more than you.


Unless theyve very recently changed the tax rules then all soldiers will pay the same NI and income tax as anyone else for the same tax band.

Some of the young soldiers may well save on costs of living in a bedsit, but then a lot of young people live at home much later these days!! And to be honest pay as you dine on base isnt that cheap, and for the older career soldiers, most of them have a home so pay all the usual bills as well as a small amount of accom on base and food, so technically on balance probably worse off.

For the trades the pay is broadly equivilent to a civilian trade but with an added "x factor" (MoD's term not mine!) to take into account working hours, separation etc plus operational welfare package for being away. No where near as good as civilian contractor expenses or PMC rates!!

Most of the pay rates are fair, except the basic private soldier rates are low in my opinion.
 chris_75
Joined: 5/3/2006
Msg: 99
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join the army and go to Afghanistan
Posted: 7/13/2009 5:46:23 AM
Speaking as an ex soldier who was sent to Saudi Arabia 4 days after Saddam invaded Kuwait, Everyone who joins the army in the current climate knows exactly what they are getting themselves into, They have some of the best training, unfortunately not the best equipment but that is changing with public pressure on the Government.
Speaking from personal experience, i couldn't wait to get out there and do the job i was trained to do.
Yes its scary but it is also exilerating and at the end of the day, you could get hit by a bus or fall down stairs and be killed. There are risks in all aspects of life.


Everybody knows that the reason we went to war was predominantly a backlash to the tragedy we call 9/11, it was a matter of pride for the Americans and who can blame them.

It is a real shame that Al Queda (a CIA trained terrorist cell to take on the russians in Afganistan) had nothing to do with 9/11. That unfortunately was a false flag operation orchestrated by elements of the US Government to mobilise public opinion onto a war footing, allowing them to invade Iraq, Afganistan and ultimately Iran.
Thankfully most people around the world are not as gulible as they hoped.
It is the same principle that has been used for every major military engagement or incursion in the 20th century.
If you do some digging you will uncover a wealth of information on the net.
Please don't believe everything you see on the TV or in the popular media, most of it is just lies or spin.

The reason we are still in Afganistan is twofold, one reason is to protect the oil pipelines running from Iraq, through Afganistan and onto europe.
The other is to deny the Taliban control of the oil pipelines.
The poppy fields and production of heroin are unaffected by our presence.
 oggers
Joined: 5/10/2007
Msg: 106
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join the army and go to Afghanistan
Posted: 7/13/2009 10:07:44 AM
So, can someone please explain to me exactly WHY we are fighting away in Afghanistan ?

I heard some politicos on the radio the last couple of days trying to do so - and failing in my opinion . Are we there simply as buddies of the Yanks again ? We appear to have lost the hearts and minds of the afghan people now, and we will never win a guerrila war there - just ask the Mighty Red Army how they got along in the 1980's against the Taliban and the Mudjahadin ...

In fact, in our own history we have fought afghan wars THREE times since 1839 (1878, and 1918 ) with variable results. We had India to protect most of that time, so afghanistan was quite importantant strategically, but what the feck are we doing there now ? Fighting Al-Queda? come off it, thats like saying we went to war with Iraq to find and destroy WMD (hmmm.....).. Al-Queda is a nefarious group of loosely allied militant groups, doesn't exactly have a grand HQ does it ?!

This war is completely pointless .

Bring our troops home and leave the world's policeman to it ............
 chris_75
Joined: 5/3/2006
Msg: 115
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join the army and go to Afghanistan
Posted: 7/14/2009 2:20:37 AM

None of us could ever comprehend how it must feel for a soldier to kill another and I do not think that if put in that position you would stand there and reason with a man pointing a gun at you willing to kill you all for the sake of a religion, oilfield, poppyfield or in the case of the Taliban being allowed to oppress their own people and commit murder in the name of religion.


tm1971 it is surprisingly easy to kill another human being with a rifle, you don't see them as human beings, they are simply targets and as they tell you on the ranges... "targets will fall when hit". The only thing you feel is elation every time one goes down.
The problems start for soldiers when civilians ask them about their experiences, and then look at them with horror when they find out they have killed people.
That is harder to deal with than actually shooting someone, doing that is just a test of skill.
 pantsonfire
Joined: 7/19/2006
Msg: 140
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join the army and go to Afghanistan
Posted: 7/15/2009 3:01:21 AM
I've told my son that I would lock him up rather than have him join the armed forces...
This doesn't however mean that I abhor those who are in service, it just means I couldn't bear to risk losing him in a war I may not agree with... Joining up is a career move taken by those in all walks of life and does not mean you are ill educated or a hired killer, or even a hero... It just means you are an employee...


The war in Afghanistan may be wrong in some peoples' view, the soldiers there may be uneducated oiks with a penchant for kicking Afghani butt, in some peoples' opinion... But to claim that all people who support our soldiers whilst they are fighting out there are
Imperialists, Colonialists, Zionists, establishment types and far-right "I'll lay down my life for queen and country" types.
is a little elitist... I'd not consider myself any of those, yet I can and do support the troops, just not the reason for their presence..

There are myriad reasons for being in the armed forces, just as there are myriad reasons for supporting our troops whilst they are out there... I find it quite easy to support the troops and yet not support the war... It's a pretty simple separation in my mind...
 chris_75
Joined: 5/3/2006
Msg: 147
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join the army and go to Afghanistan
Posted: 7/16/2009 6:13:39 AM
Very few people support our troops out in Afganistan or Iraq.
It would be a completely different story if there was an invading army heading towards us from across the channel.
Soldiers are very level headed people by and large, They signed up knowing full well there is a chance that they could die doing the job they love and they do it willingly.
They not only protect our interests overseas but they are also willing to die to protect the people of this green and pleasant land where ever the threat comes from.
How many of you could say the same ??
How many of you would give up your life to protect your neighbour or the chavs hanging round your local shopping centres.
I think our support of the young men and women in the armed forces depends greatly on how close the threat is to us as a nation.
We should disagree with the policies of the Government we shouldn't take it out on the troops on the ground though.
 Staffslass
Joined: 3/8/2009
Msg: 148
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join the army and go to Afghanistan
Posted: 7/16/2009 6:29:29 AM
I think the OP was,
"So, if your son/daughter was thinking of joining up, and there is a good chance that they would be sent there, would you try and deter them from joining?"

I'm from a Military Background (Father, Cousins,and 2 Brothers-In-Law), so it came as no surprise when my eldest son said he was thinking of joining the armed forces, and asked my opinion. ....

My advice?...I told him that I wouldn't be happy if he was thinking of joining the Infantry..for 2 reasons; (a) He'd be nothing more than cannon-fodder. (b) At some point he'd return to Civvie Street, and there weren't many job opportunities for gunners! I advised him, that IF he were to join up, to get a Trade that would benefit him beyond his Service life.

I pointed out that the "glamorous" overseas postings were now very few and far between...unless it was to a war-torn country....and that, ultimately, he would need to be prepared to lay down his life...

He was probably about 15/16yrs old at the time, and we'd actually been watching a Documentary on Saddam Hussein and the Gulf War....I remember it distinctly, because it was the first time I'd seen him so passionate about anything...and the first time he'd ever sworn in front of me!!..He pointed at the TV and said, "Mum. I want to stop bast*rds like him"!!...I was, and still am, VERY proud of him.

Perhaps the Middle Eastern conflicts, and the reasons that our troops are there, ARE questionable, but without our troops we, as a nation, would be sitting ducks. Our troops are trained to do what they do without question because questioning can cost lives - their own, and their comrades. Whatever your Political views, our men..and women, are out their doing what they were trained to do, under extreme conditions. The very least we can do, is give THEM our support, and pray that our sons/brothers/fathers/uncles/cousins/nephews/wives/mothers/daughters/nieces come back in one piece.
 Staffslass
Joined: 3/8/2009
Msg: 158
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join the army and go to Afghanistan
Posted: 7/17/2009 12:18:50 PM
Have a safe tour, selfloader.....My future daughter-in-law (WAAF) will be returning to Afghanistan in early December for her 2nd time...Despite the negative feedback in this thread, some of us DO support you, if not the politics behind the reasons you are there! x
 Jo van
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 174
join the army and go to Afghanistan
Posted: 11/4/2009 3:22:13 AM
^^^ And they will continue to die, as long as we are there with a military force.


So, if your son/daughter was thinking of joining up, and there is a good chance that they would be sent there, would you try and deter them from joining.?

I have two sons, and I would be horrified if they wanted to join up, and would certainly try to dissuade them, for the following reasons.
1. The people who declare wars, are never personally at risk. They always send other people's sons and daughters to be maimed and killed.
2. The premise of "fighting for your Country" is flawed IMO, because typically those fighting will actually own none of said country, nor will they on their return. We all know who the country really belongs to.
3. In this particular 'war' we were there allegedly, because of the attack on the USA (9/11) supposedly orchestrated by Osama Bin Laden. My view is that if an individual or a group of individuals, commit a crime, they should be brought to justice. We shouldn't attack civilian populations to achieve this.
We didn't bomb Dublin when the IRA were bombing London.
So why are we bombing Afghanistan because of the alleged actions of a few?
Killing innocent women and children in the process..

"War! -it ain't nuthin but a heartbreaker...
War! -Got one friend, that's the undertaker.....!"
WAR! What is it good for?
Absolutely Nuthin!"
Edwin Starr
 Valpo26
Joined: 8/1/2007
Msg: 184
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join the army and go to Afghanistan
Posted: 11/5/2009 12:39:07 AM
Been there, Done that.
I wouldn't try to deter someone based on the fact that they might have to do their job for real. My two tours were actually the best part of my short (4.5 years) in the army, and that is the point of the training.

I would point out that the 'New labour' government appears to be trying to destroy the armed forces stealthily by budget cuts and over-stretch, that 'the military covenant' (soldiers do their job, in return government looks after them and their families) has been replaced by reliance on Charities such as 'Help for Heroes', Save our Soldiers, British Legion etc. (great work on their part, but it shouldn't have to be provided by charity)
 whiskeypapa
Joined: 5/19/2008
Msg: 192
join the army and go to Afghanistan
Posted: 11/5/2009 6:22:55 AM
Cor! Blimey!! not one of you poofters has asked why Old Blighty is in Afghanistan in the first. Just blindly go and ask no questions.

NATO is in Afghanistan as an arm of US imperialism, nothing more. I suppose old imperialists see no harm in that but, the world has changed and the rules of law must apply. No longer must one nation wrest by force what it wants from another.
 whiskeypapa
Joined: 5/19/2008
Msg: 197
join the army and go to Afghanistan
Posted: 11/5/2009 7:00:41 PM
Fopr the record Mullah Omar is a patriot defending his country from invaders. These invaders want to use his country for both a pipeline route to export oil to the Asian markets and a base to harass Russia and China.

The US is not protecting the oil fields for western society. They are taking over the country for their own ends. The Taliban are no threat to the west. All they want is the invaders out. The TTP in Pakistan are mostly merecenaries from the Northern Alliance allies of the US. They are exporting mayhem because the US, India and Isreal want to Balkanize Pakistan, each for their own reasons.
 Strider886
Joined: 3/28/2006
Msg: 222
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History
join the army and go to Afghanistan
Posted: 10/14/2010 12:33:51 AM
Civilian casualties are a sad fact of war, we need to deal with it and move on.

The reason our troops are out dieing in Afghan/Iraq is because of the politics and propaganda that prevents them doing their jobs as quickly as possible and getting the f*ck home.

As it stands, even if they're 100% sure that someone is Taliban, they can't touch them until they can prove it for the media.... Even then they could kill 50 Taliban fighters and 2 days later someone's gone in taken the guns, scattered a few dead women/children around and taken photo's to accuse our guys of killing civilians.

I think they should cut all the countries communications with the outside world, kick the media out, do the job by any means necessary and get the hell out back to their families.
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