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 rockondon
Joined: 2/21/2007
Msg: 26
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Is there a god?Page 2 of 26    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26)
casheyesblond

I have found a lot of your posts to be what I would consider to be off the hook and chain

your posts are off the hook as well. I always enjoy them, and considering that we are often on opposing sides of a discussion, that says a lot about what an erudite and charming poster you are.

countIbli

There is a great deal of evidence against the existence of the Christian god.

really, like what?
 CountIbli
Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 27
Is there a god?
Posted: 3/9/2008 10:33:38 PM




countIbli

There is a great deal of evidence against the existence of the Christian god.

really, like what?


Did you even bother to read the paragraph above that sentence?

Did you even bother to read the paragraph above that sentence?
 CountIbli
Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 28
Is there a god?
Posted: 3/9/2008 10:36:34 PM


edit/hey CountIbli,I only read the last sentence in your last post which I couldn't seem to get past that to even read the rest of your posts


Had you bothered to read what I wrote you might understand why I wrote what I wrote. But I guess as long as you disagree with my conclusion you won't bother to listen to what I have to say. I'm not sure how this is different from plugging your fingers into your ears, closing your eyes, and saying "la la la."
 CountIbli
Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 29
Is there a god?
Posted: 3/9/2008 10:40:19 PM


countIbli's understanding of the term "evidence" is rather...idiosyncratic (to put it politely). So I wouldn't hold my breath if you're waiting for a compelling answer.


In science a theory is supported by evidence when the predictions of the theory agree with observations. On the flip side, when the predictions of the theory disagree with observations those observations are evidence against the theory. The Jesus theory makes several predictions that are contradicted by observations. This is pretty standard in science. Standard in courts of law too. I don't know what you consider evidence. Maybe the only thing you accept is philosophical sophistry?
 E.Kyro
Joined: 10/3/2005
Msg: 30
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Is there a god?
Posted: 3/9/2008 10:41:05 PM

Posted by themadfiddler
Until the creator writes his will upon the surface of the moon in 50 mile high platinum letters that we can all read by means of a simple telescope, I am afraid it's all up for grabs and science is going to provide the best answers available...and thanks to them for their fine work.


He did better then that, He wrote His will into the constellations. No telescope required.


Posted by CountIbli
These natural resources were less complex then the car so complexity can surely increase in the universe.


When they are acted upon by an Intelligent Designer. My point.


These things all require intelligence to bring them into existence because they lack one thing that living systems have: Reproduction with modification.


Just as the first living system required an intelligent designer to bring it into existence. Back to square one.


But putting that aside, if the universe always existed it would have no need for a creator.


So what do you think the scientific theory will be in 50 years from now? Seems to me that every time they come up with a new theory to explain all the evidence they come a step closer to the fact that an eternal Intelligent designer had to be involved.


Posted by rockondon
Sorry to hear that your life is meaningless. If only you had a child to love and to love you back, people to care for and cared for you, dreams to pursue, goals in life, or any of the numerous other things which give life meaning. If things like that don't give your life meaning, what is belief in a book going to do?


Thanks for your concern. Yes only if, but unfortunately not all can have children nor do all have people who care for them or the ability to have or follow their dreams, goals or any of the things that make life worthwhile for you. Some have had all those things and through no fault of their own, lost them. Consider that in a large part of the world for thousands of years all the things that make life for you worthwhile were not available to large segments of the population.


The irony. If I believed as you did I'd probably have the barrell in my mouth and my toe on the trigger.


Thanks for confirming my point. Faith that there is a higher purpose and meaning to life through God is the very thing that keeps many going without going postal, whereas those without that faith require externals to give them purpose and meaning. The externals however can disappear in a moment leaving those who depended on them without hope.
 fishplusfish
Joined: 1/28/2008
Msg: 31
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Is there a god?
Posted: 3/9/2008 10:48:44 PM
yes ther is a god .if you was a wittness you would know. as i know, eye opener.lol
 rockondon
Joined: 2/21/2007
Msg: 32
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Posted: 3/9/2008 11:17:17 PM
CountIbli

Did you even bother to read the paragraph above that sentence?

yes, of course. It was disproving the accuracy of the bible, not disproving the existence of God.

Posted by CountIbli
These natural resources were less complex then the car so complexity can surely increase in the universe.

Posted by E.Kyro
When they are acted upon by an Intelligent Designer. My point.

Such as when snowflakes form?

Posted by E.Kyro
whereas those without that faith require externals to give them purpose and meaning. The externals however can disappear in a moment leaving those who depended on them without hope

and yet the things that give my life purpose and meaning are mainly internal - love, caring, friendship, goals, etc.

And although you are right in that they can disappear in a moment, that does not mean that we should not appreciate them. In fact, I would say the opposite is true - the transitory nature of life makes these things even more precious.
To quote a great song by Three Days Grace - Pain, I'd rather feel pain than nothing at all...
 themadfiddler
Joined: 10/16/2006
Msg: 33
Is there a god?
Posted: 3/9/2008 11:22:52 PM

He did better then that, He wrote His will into the constellations. No telescope required.


Apparently not as there seems to be more than a bit of confusion as to said creator's existence, or will and more than sufficient explanation not requiring a creator or even a prime mover to explain the existence of stars...

And rather than trying to be cute, or clever (and coming out as obtuse), it's readily apparent that no single entity has gone out of their way to either be direct about making either their presence or will known.

Assumptions based on personal belief and interpretation of otherwise natural phenomenon are, frankly, just that.

It tells us nothing specific, and more to the point, says nothing specific about any one being, or beings that may or may not have had anything to do with the process...and certainly does nothing to buoy up support for any one specifically...so any claims by any one over any other for supremacy are of course fit for the rubbish bin.

Until the platinum letters arrive, or something equivalent, everything is still up for grabs by all parties and no one is left with any better claim or evidence than anyone else regarding belief systems...

However, regarding those things of which factual evidence and replicability may be obtained, the scientific method still has the best answer until new data arrives...at which point it will continue to revise it's answer -- nice how it works like that, unlike static, dogmatic belief systems. Sucks to be one of them.

As a final point, however, science also says nothing about the existence or non-existence of a god(s) as frankly, such questions are outside its purview...and frankly the interest of most people pursuing science as a field of knowledge. Those who are comfortable saying "I don't know" can find solace there...and also take heart in saying, "Not only do I not know, but I am also pretty sure you don't know...and probably don't understand the meaning of the verb 'to know' but believe you do" and therein lies the worst of the confusion.
 pappy009
Joined: 2/3/2008
Msg: 34
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Is there a god?
Posted: 3/10/2008 1:25:05 PM
First of all get the religious nonsense out of the way. G-d is not something you wind up on Sundays.



Before we can understand Is there a G-d what we don't know is--- What is a G-d.---

What are you!! A unit of observation. If you cannot observe a G-d, then you cannot understand what a G-d is. And if you cannot understand what a G-d is how can you observe G-d. So what are you looking for.

For those who do not understand Seeing is not believing, believing is seeing. You will never know that until you learn to believe.

The point is that, its up to you to find out. And there are tons of signs on the way. A few billboards.

You don't go to heaven, you create heaven.
You don't see G-d,you become one with G-d.
G-d is inside you. Part of you.
Omnipresent-Omnipotent because G-d is part of you. Look in the mirror, you will see a G-d,-- Life.

Time is change/Timeless is constancy.

If we could imagine timeless-ness---where would the beginning be and the end. The Alpha and Omega.

Atheist make me laugh, they want to see a man with a bubbled head behind a cloud. They need material confirmation, a substance. They lack inner insight. They see everything as separate. They argue religion and beliefs because it suites a material mind to have a sense of physical practicality in there logic. They believe that we are just bodies but are unaware of the essence that is inside. The idea that you can observe areas of life that are deeper than the superficial mind. Remember you are a unit of observation, you are a soul, made in the image of a G-d, which gives you the qualities of a G-d, Separating yet pulling together a reflection of a self created reality.

You got to find a G-d before you can see a G-d. Look inside, hes not behind a cloud, you missed the whole thing completely. Pr 8 We are the creators in this world.
 CountIbli
Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 35
Is there a god?
Posted: 3/10/2008 5:14:20 PM


yes, of course. It was disproving the accuracy of the bible, not disproving the existence of God.


It was disproving the existence of the Christian god, not some other undefined god.
 pappy009
Joined: 2/3/2008
Msg: 36
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Posted: 3/10/2008 6:41:12 PM
Wow. or ouch. that touched me. It almost hurt. In a good way. Wow.
 E.Kyro
Joined: 10/3/2005
Msg: 37
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Posted: 3/10/2008 8:47:37 PM
Yeah me too. I also liked your post 84 Pappy. Well said.
 TheLimey
Joined: 2/24/2008
Msg: 38
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Is there a god?
Posted: 3/10/2008 8:52:28 PM
Sheesh, there really are a lot of people "out there where the buses don't run" living in the US...
 E.Kyro
Joined: 10/3/2005
Msg: 39
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Posted: 3/11/2008 1:40:07 PM

Posted by rockondon

and yet the things that give my life purpose and meaning are mainly internal - love, caring, friendship, goals, etc.


They are the internal feelings as a result of being focused on the external things.



And although you are right in that they can disappear in a moment, that does not mean that we should not appreciate them. In fact, I would say the opposite is true - the transitory nature of life makes these things even more precious.


I wasn't saying that they shouldn't be appreciated but that if that they are the only thing we can depend on for life to be worthwhile, there are many who would be in a lot of trouble.
Belief in the God of "that book" can make a huge difference for those who choose to put their faith in Him. It is the externals which make it difficult for those who have them to see the difference it does make but for those who grab a hold of it, it can mean the difference between life and death.


Posted by themadfiddler

Apparently not as there seems to be more than a bit of confusion as to said creator's existence, or will and more than sufficient explanation not requiring a creator or even a prime mover to explain the existence of stars...


My point about the stars wasn't in relation to their existence but in the story that is evident in the constellations. Recently read a story about a missionary who when teaching a tribe that had been in isolation for a few thousand years, was told that the gospel was familiar to them already from the constellations and that the only thing they lacked was the actual name of Jesus Christ. This is known as the Star Gospel.


However, regarding those things of which factual evidence and replicability may be obtained, the scientific method still has the best answer until new data arrives...at which point it will continue to revise it's answer -- nice how it works like that, unlike static, dogmatic belief systems. Sucks to be one of them.


The spiritual life is not that much different. It is also subject to refinement as new "data" or experiences come through. It only become static or dogmatic when someones mind closes and they refuse to grow any more.

I think it needs to be remembered that the material and spiritual were seperated 500 years ago but that in the near future they will again need to be combined for scientists to go further in their pursuit of knowledge. Some disciplines have already had to make the transition in fact. Only some of the more backward ones are trying to resist the change to their own detriment.
 Ravenstar66
Joined: 8/27/2007
Msg: 40
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Posted: 3/12/2008 4:30:58 PM
I heard something last night that really moved me... it was one of those things that just "rings true" inside... for me anyway.

It went like this: "We are the manifestations of the universal mind evolving to cosmic consciousness" The wording was a bit different but that's the basic idea.

I found it really beautiful... it's a bit like watching a flower bloom thinking about it this way.
 Pics2Follow
Joined: 1/29/2008
Msg: 41
Is there a god?
Posted: 3/12/2008 4:56:29 PM
Hey Chris...
If you are really interested in knowing the "evidence" pick up the bestseller by Lee Strobel, "A Case for Christ"

The guy is a reporter of the Chicago Tribune and set out to disprove God and religion in general and was surprised what he found
 CountIbli
Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 42
Is there a god?
Posted: 3/12/2008 5:04:09 PM


If you are really interested in knowing the "evidence" pick up the bestseller by Lee Strobel, "A Case for Christ"


I read it. Putting quotes around the word evidence pretty much sums up the whole book.



The guy is a reporter of the Chicago Tribune and set out to disprove God and religion in general and was surprised what he found


This is what he'd have people believe but it isn't quite true. Whether he was ever an Atheist I cannot say, but the reason why he converted was because of a woman, not because of any evidence, certainly not because of anything he presents in his book.

His "evidence" is simply him asking fundamentalist Christians questions that he thinks that we're going to think are hard hitting, accepting what they say as true, saying he's going to double check what he's been told, and then never following up. If this is how he did journalism then he was a crappy investigator.
 Pics2Follow
Joined: 1/29/2008
Msg: 43
Is there a god?
Posted: 3/12/2008 5:20:03 PM
Hey Chris...
If you are really interested in knowing the "evidence" pick up the bestseller by Lee Strobel, "A Case for Christ"

The guy is a reporter of the Chicago Tribune and set out to disprove God and religion in general and was surprised what he found
 E.Kyro
Joined: 10/3/2005
Msg: 44
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Posted: 3/13/2008 8:47:07 AM

How can you think something like 'life' had to be created but in the same breath say that life's creator has always existed??? The obvious nature of this irony makes the mind spin.


It's only an irony when one envisions a 3 dimensional being creating a 3 dimensional being which it sounds like you are doing. For a god to be a god he would need to exist outside of time or eternally and eternity doesn't have a beginning or end. It is our finite minds that have a problem imagining something being uncreated but existence requires it because nothing produces nothing.
 E.Kyro
Joined: 10/3/2005
Msg: 45
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Posted: 3/13/2008 12:55:31 PM

So you are making up the rules as to what a god should be? Why should a god have to exist outside of time (the universe) to be a god? Please explain.

A God who has created the Universe and time is not subject to his creation unless he chooses to be.


How can a god existing outside of a logical universe be subject to logic? Can god be and not be at once? Within a logical universe, this is a contradiction, and therefore self-refuting. But then again, if a god that exists outside time, and a logical universe, can it be and not be? Existing outside a logical universe god should not be subject, therefore allowing a contradiction, and again, self-refutes.


If I understand you correctly, you are implying God is subject to time. Like He has a time machine that allows him to go from one now to a different now of His choosing. A being who isn't subject to time would exist in all "nows" at the same moment. That imo is what is inferred by the words "I AM"

Attempting to apply 3 dimensional logic to a being who transcends all dimensions is not going to work. Even if that being is exists in the 11th or 12th dimension, a higher logic is required as the string and m theories are pointing at.
 The_Reverend
Joined: 2/17/2008
Msg: 46
Is there a god?
Posted: 3/13/2008 1:23:29 PM

One more; if a god can be infinite/eternal, why can't a universe?

God in the bible is spirit - not material. I have no doubt that God could have made a universe eternal and infinite - However, Paul asserts that the creation (universe) was subject to decay. Although creation here is probably meant to include those who are not yet the children of God, I feel it also applies to the universe.

Rom 8:19 The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed.
Rom 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope
Rom 8:21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
Rom 8:22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.

the word creation in Romans means :-

1) the act of founding, establishing, building etc

a) the act of creating, creation

b) creation i.e. thing created

1) of individual things, beings, a creature, a creation

a) anything created

b) after a rabbinical usage (by which a man converted from idolatry to Judaism was called)

c) the sum or aggregate of things created

c) institution, ordinance
 themadfiddler
Joined: 10/16/2006
Msg: 47
Is there a god?
Posted: 3/13/2008 8:43:01 PM

Hey Chris...
If you are really interested in knowing the "evidence" pick up the bestseller by Lee Strobel, "A Case for Christ"

The guy is a reporter of the Chicago Tribune and set out to disprove God and religion in general and was surprised what he found


This is the second time you posted the EXACT same thing. Third time, I will be happy to ask the mods to delete the lot of them as it is technically off-topic anyway and a "book testimonial" and not really contributing a damn thing to the discussion...

Never mind the fact that after wading through the ponderous mess of it in a few hours I discovered that like "Mere Christianity" it was one of the singularly most poorly researched and badly reasoned pieces of nonsense ever produced by the apologist machine out there. It has been reduced to ruin so many times by even the most poor of debunkers...

We're not discussing specifically Christ or the Judaeo-Christian God either and the "Case" is specifically an "apology" for Jesus.

Thank you, come again.



It's only an irony when one envisions a 3 dimensional being creating a 3 dimensional being which it sounds like you are doing. For a god to be a god he would need to exist outside of time or eternally and eternity doesn't have a beginning or end. It is our finite minds that have a problem imagining something being uncreated but existence requires it because nothing produces nothing.


For a being to exist outside of space or time, how do they then interact with a dimension that exists in space or time?

Magic?

It's a mystery?

"A wizard did it?"

When odd socks disappear in the dryer, that is the split second that God acts?

There is really no way around the problem of causality...either you accept the very nature of the common definition of a god as a being that has magical powers, or you redefine such an entity.

I think you have to backtrack here and settle on an acceptable definition of what makes a god a god.

God as defined by the Jewish or Christian Bible is an essentially incomprehensible being with magical/supernatural powers of infinite and transcendant scope...thus, a tad hard to swallow for some.

And also, such a being is a big fat question begger. Only those who can't imagine a universe without a God seem to need one...there are many that seem to get by just fine without one.
 E.Kyro
Joined: 10/3/2005
Msg: 48
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Posted: 3/14/2008 11:34:19 AM

Posted by A Fortiori

1)How do you know what you are positing is actually true?
2)One more; if a god can be infinite/eternal, why can't a universe?
3)BTW, what do you mean by "3 dimensional logic" ?


1) Best answer for me based on the available physical and spiritual evidence.
2) Scientists have proven that the Universe is not infinite/eternal based on the Second law of Dynamics. Several theories have been put forth but then rejected by mainstream scientists so there is no need to rely on any religious writings to refute the possibility.
3)3 dimensional logic is what is used to predict an outcome where time is a constant. Special relativity for example has counter intuitive results when considered from its perspective.



Posted by themadfiddler
God as defined by the Jewish or Christian Bible is an essentially incomprehensible being with magical/supernatural powers of infinite and transcendant scope...thus, a tad hard to swallow for some.


Why hard to swallow? The only reason they appear magical or supernatural properties is because the process or theory is not understood. A century ago, variable time would have been considered magical had someone gone through it. Today, through Relativity we know it is possible. Every day we do things and utilize appliances that a few hundred years ago would have been a reason to be burned at the stake as a witch or wizard for.
If history teaches us nothing else it should at least tell us that yesterday's magic is today's mundane.
 themadfiddler
Joined: 10/16/2006
Msg: 49
Is there a god?
Posted: 3/14/2008 12:22:55 PM


Why hard to swallow? The only reason they appear magical or supernatural properties is because the process or theory is not understood. A century ago, variable time would have been considered magical had someone gone through it. Today, through Relativity we know it is possible. Every day we do things and utilize appliances that a few hundred years ago would have been a reason to be burned at the stake as a witch or wizard for.
If history teaches us nothing else it should at least tell us that yesterday's magic is today's mundane.


Very well. If you wish you can imagine God, a la Arthur C. Clarke's definition of any sufficiently advanced technology appearing to be magic to a lower level of technology. I submit that the distance in this case is so vast that for all intents and purposes it may as well be magic as God according to the Bible - if believed in a literalist sense and I say that advisedly - routinely violates the laws of physics and causality, matter and energy. Six of one, half dozen of the other.

None of which negates the fact that the universe can get by without one, despite some people finding that hard to believe and arguments from incredulity notwithstanding. This is all really kind of "religious philosophy 101" ... Is there some new tack you want to put on this or do I have to go dig out my papers from over a decade ago...
 E.Kyro
Joined: 10/3/2005
Msg: 50
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Is there a god?
Posted: 3/14/2008 5:57:23 PM

None of which negates the fact that the universe can get by without one, despite some people finding that hard to believe and arguments from incredulity notwithstanding. This is all really kind of "religious philosophy 101" ... Is there some new tack you want to put on this or do I have to go dig out my papers from over a decade ago...


Strikes me that the arguments from incredulity originate from the camp having a hard time believing it would require an intelligent force to create the Universe in the first place. However at this point they are without a plausible explanation for that particular event. Whether or not the Universe can get by without the continuing maintenance of an intelligent force is debatable but the true crux is whether it can actually have come into existence without that designer. At best you can assert that God violates the known[ laws of physics, causality, matter and energy, implying at the same time that we already know all there is to know about them. But that is still easier to swallow then a self-created Universe.


Posted by A Fortiori
There is a theory that this universe is merely one cycle in a possible eternal cycle of big bangs (expansion) and crunches (retraction). This process could be repeated ad infinitum, or eternally, without the necessecity of a god. That is but one theory that does not require a god to "create".


If you had paid more attention to the content of my last post rather then how I spelled Thermodynamics, you might have noted that that particular theory went out with the the 1990's scientific trash. Although there are still some theorists having a problem letting go of the idea, the general scientific opinion is that there is insufficient mass in the Universe to stop the expansion. In fact with the theorized dark energy there are some postulating that the expansion is accelerating due to its potential anti-gravity properties.
No Big Crunches expected.
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