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 themadfiddler
Joined: 10/16/2006
Msg: 51
Is there a god?Page 3 of 26    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26)


Strikes me that the arguments from incredulity originate from the camp having a hard time believing it would require an intelligent force to create the Universe in the first place. However at this point they are without a plausible explanation for that particular event. Whether or not the Universe can get by without the continuing maintenance of an intelligent force is debatable but the true crux is whether it can actually have come into existence without that designer. At best you can assert that God violates the known[ laws of physics, causality, matter and energy, implying at the same time that we already know all there is to know about them. But that is still easier to swallow then a self-created Universe.


Uh... only for the theist.

Everyone else manages just fine, thanks awfully.

Nice try attempting to shift the burden of proof though but I'm not buying and no one else will either.

I don't need to posit the existence of an intelligent designer to create or maintain a universe...I'm not making a claim for one and the world of science doesn't either - science operates on the basis of observable and replicable data and forms conclusions on that basis. There is no need to bandy about with extraordinary claims about invisible magic men farting out universes and tinkering with them after and there are plenty of theories about how the ball got rolling.

Whether you consider them plausible is hardly of interest...lack of scientific knowledge in this day and age is a bit shocking but Steven Hawking's books are for one available at any public library.

However, extraordinary claims, as Carl Sagan noted, require extraordinary proof. The entire history of religious philosophy has yet to develop a substantial argument for the existence of God, or for that matter the necessity of such. Now you think you have here on this web forum by trotting out these old canards?

Hubris anyone?

No one is - as far as I can see - making an attempt to deny any god's existence - however there seems to be no immediate necessity for any such being beyond the faith of the believers and after two millenia of debate on the subject by the most learned men in the field, that is about the best anyone has been able to manage...

With all due respect, do you expect to outdo Aquinas, Locke and Russell here in the next few posts?
 E.Kyro
Joined: 10/3/2005
Msg: 52
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Is there a god?
Posted: 3/15/2008 4:17:48 AM

OK carl sagan, how can something keep expanding if it has INSUFFICIENT MASS?? Think about it....


It is said that for the Universe to start contracting there needs to be enough gravity to stop the expansion and reverse direction. Since gravity is dependent on mass, there needs to be enough density to be able to do so. Current estimates of the mas and volume point to there being INSUFFICIENT MASS for gravity to slow the expansion down.
 Merrylass
Joined: 12/30/2007
Msg: 53
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Is there a god?
Posted: 3/15/2008 5:59:11 AM
Here we go again - great long posts purporting to present 'evidence' pro or con God. Atheists mocking believers.

Let's try this again:

To unbelievers: prove that ANY abstract concept exists. Give me a photo of 'thought'.
Send me a test tube of 'love'. Graph 'idea'. Bring me a box of 'decision' or a bag of 'belief'. For that matter, provide me a package of 'proof.' Show me 'life', please. I'd like a nice picture of it.

You cannot. And yet you insist that 'evidence' must be provided that there is God. It's hilarious.

Finally, you resort to theories like the 'Big Bang' which, you claim, are logical and reasonable and yet, even in my short lifetime, vast amounts of things I was taught were absolutely true and unassailable have been proven wrong. Now they're saying that the universe is contracting rather than expanding. Pretty soon, the 'Big Bang' will be disproved and the 'Pitiful Pop' or some other theory will replace it.

In short, our tiny brains are far too small to grasp all but the easiest of ideas. And yet some of us continue to think we can get our puddles of grey matter around something infinitely more complex than we can ever hope to be.

Bring me a sign that dimensions exist. Now bring me something from the fifth or sixth dimension.

Right. Not happening, is it?

Now tell me again why you (the general 'you') can claim to comprehend enough about anything to state categorically that there is no God or that there are no spirits. You can't. You lack the comprehension. We all do. It's a ridiculous conceit that people have that they understand much at all about the universe.

The truly intelligent person understands that humans understand pretty much nothing and therefore that these attempts to 'prove' God is or is not are utterly pointless.
 Ravenstar66
Joined: 8/27/2007
Msg: 54
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Posted: 3/15/2008 9:06:12 AM
I can see the effects of thought, love, ideas, decisions and belief in my own life as well as that of reality at large.

Before the electron was discovered theory pointed to it's existance (as well as cells, and molecules and well..everything you need a telescope or microscope for.. or a particle accelerator). And before that someone had to be able to IMAGINE they existed (this is a very interesting point but I won't go any farther into it here as it goes into the nature of consciousness and reality and how they are connected) It was only last week that they actually were able to SEE an electron (yes folks the electron has finally been "photographed"!!!! very cool). Gravity is unseeable... but it's effects are not (gravity actually curves the space around it-pretty darn cool). You can't see ultraviolet light, but you can still get a sunburn and retina damage from it. Science considers these things "hypothesis" until enough replicable tests have been done to conclusively prove that they are there by their effects on other matter and energy. It doesn't say they DON'T exist but will try to come up with the mathematical probability for their existance... science can't EVER say something doesn't exist...whether that is dark energy, the quark, or god. That is not the way science works...science is the curiosity of the human species taking practical (physical-body) form, Philosophy is the curiosity of the human species taking ideological (mental-mind) form and religion is the curiosity of the human species taking emotional (astral-heart) form. Now if we as a species can get our bodies, minds and hearts working together we might actually get somewhere.

"life" is observable..does it reproduce? it's alive...whatever it is. Life isn't a thing, it's a process. All of these things you have set up as your "proof" are not "things".. they are processes... fluid byproducts of life and consciousness.

How could you perceive the fifth dimension from the fourth? It would have a dimension that we do not (and probably can not) exist in (maybe)... I think (not being a theoretical physicist I must speculate) that the "proof" of other dimensions would necessarily be ones that could only be percieved by it's affect on our own 3 dimensional matter and energy (plus the fourth dimension of time...). I could be wrong. I have a hard time shifting my cognition to extra dimensional theory... probably because I am a visual learner... although some science fiction novels have helped me to at least open my mind to the possibility. Maybe the "spiritual" realm is just higher dimensions? It's possible.

It's probably a good thing that the universe DOESN't have enough mass to stop expansion from the Ultra Nova that began it all... because... what happens to very high mass objects when they collapse upon themselves in our universe? They become black holes... a universe size black hole..yup, lovely. The whole thing inside out. A singularity...could still happen though.

We say the universe is infinite because we can not perceive any limit to it.. this could be because it IS infinite, or because we just can't see far enough (or back in time far enough actually) or because it is curved but since we are a part of it that perception is skewed... it's kind of like seeing oneself objectively, not very likely. We can see about..ohh...13 billion years ago... there is a small galaxy about 13 billion light years away...what that is in miles I have no idea.. but it's a LONG ways away.... and the big bang background radiation was estimated to be about 13.7 billion light years away... this could be an expanding bubble of our universe.. suggesting a "limit"... BUT is there anything beyond this background radiation? It is almost impossible for us to conceive of "nothing"... I ask...what is it expanding INTO? Or... is the entire universe a being? Expanding into it's own consciousness... a being this vast I would have to call "god"... just because of the sheer scale.

SOME non-christians, and athiests will say that because of science and "empirical" lack of evidence there is no god.. but honestly that is just as bad as those who say there is one based on subjective experience and belief. What it comes down to is that experience and belief are subjective... scientific theory is objective.... but humans are a little of both.... along a scale from subjective to objective.. there is no purity amongst these positions in humanity. Since we don't really understand how the mind works, or how real reality really is (say that 5 times fast! LOL) there is no way for anyone to ridicule someone's experience... because even in psychology it is a known fact that the mind can create reality for the person.. it goes into the nature of perception and all sorts of very complicated ideas..on the other hand no one can yet share his/her "experience" with another and convince them that that reality is truth...so criticism of those who can only accept things in an empirical sense is also untenable. EACH and EVERY ONE OF US sees the world and reality in an unique and subjective way.... and really the only thing that will alter that view is the inner experience of the individual. There are no words, books, or arguements that can "convince" anyone... ultimately that conviction is subjective and unique to each individual.

Back to the topic: Is there a god? This is an unanswerable question because it means different things to each person.. for some it means is there "Yahweh" or whatever personified deity they conceive of, for others it means is there a creative force that directs the universe as we know it.. for some it might mean, is the evolution of the human consciousness coming to a point where enlightenment is possible as a species... for others it could be the manifestation of nature or the planet itself, or it could mean - is cosmic consciousness the causal factor for reality.

On a side note, IMHO... when anyone purports to have "The TRUTH" (whether religious or scientific) they are not taking into account the myriad nature of perception and belief...the possibility of a universe that may have infinite facets and may be perceived differently by each person is a frightening concept to them... what it says to me is that that person NEEDS to have a static reality, psychologically, or they panic... the concept of a fluid reality... of "Truth" being a personal psychological construct not necessarily connected to reality is terrifying. Hence the search for an immutable truth and the insistance that there is one, and they have a corner on it, and anyone who disagrees or can not perceive that truth is wrong... there is a fear of the unknown and the changeable in a lot of people.. they need things to be PERMANENT, and by looking at the universe this just isn't the case, there is nothing we can see or observe that does not change, not in 13.7 billion years anyway...at least on any level we can perceive. I'm not saying there ISN'T a level somewhere that is static.. there could be, but observation does not attest to that. Life and reality ARE change.. without motion even time ceases to exist.

Everyone finds the things they need to support their inner experience.. some from scriptures, some from other ways.. wherever they find these things they will always be something that supports the inner self... things that do not support this self-image are filtered out or rejected.. so the concept of true objectivity is false. Respecting the fact that each person has their own inner experience that can not be reduced to a common experience is vital to tolerance and understanding... and compassion.

Peace
 Nice2phku
Joined: 2/14/2008
Msg: 55
Is there a god?
Posted: 3/15/2008 12:42:12 PM
As for me, I choose to believe in God as opposed to Nothingness causing everything to exist. If it were not for the weird behavior of fermions (electrons with a negative half spin and other classified particles of quanta) we would not have matter. Because of this weird behavior these type of particles build shell, which create matter. Bosons on the other hand have a full spin and no weirdness and do not create matter, photons and gravitons. At the smallest of particles we have charmed energy (quarks, penta-quarks), the core of the nucleus of both matter and antimatter. Smaller still is force and strings and what is force. When come down to it all we know for sure is we have waves or vibrations. In other words you yourself are made of nothing.

The atheist says I am nothing and nothing is from whence I came, the theist says, I am something created from nothing by the vibration's of God's voice. For me the overwhelming evidence is I was created rather than just happened to exist.
 Merrylass
Joined: 12/30/2007
Msg: 56
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Is there a god?
Posted: 3/15/2008 12:56:24 PM
there is plenty of evidence for all these things

Let's see it. Let me touch it. It's as amorphous as the 'evidence' you demand of the existence of God. You can't give me a handful of any.


Answer me this: Why do you claim all the other gods do NOT exist?


I said nothing of the kind. Santa Claus, BTW, isn't considered a 'god' by anybody.


Maybe the "spiritual" realm is just higher dimensions? It's possible.


Exactly. We have no idea because we are trapped in Dimension 3. We can see 1 and 2 but the rest are only a concept.


Or... is the entire universe a being?

Maybe Horton! Seriously - Horton Hears a Who is a philosophical observation of our existence - I love it Maybe we're microorganisms on the butt of a much larger being.


In other words you yourself are made of nothing.

Yes! Exactly! Isn't it beautiful? We are made of the same things our thoughts are made of! If that doesn't blow people's minds, they're just not paying attention.

PS good post, Ravenstar.
 Ravenstar66
Joined: 8/27/2007
Msg: 57
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Posted: 3/15/2008 1:06:45 PM
Merrylass

I think I love you

Sometimes when I meditate upon "the source" there is an experience (a hint really) of such vastness there is no way I could describe it.. but it encompasses all of reality as I know it and it moves like a tapestry of energy, sparkles and waves, interconnectedness and incomprehensible beauty and a sort of music (vibration?). I have been fortunate to glimpse this a few times... wish I could share it but it's beyond language. It is NOT anthropomorphic though.. just a sense of incredible intelligence and a sense of "awareness" like feeling one is being watched but without the creepiness factor, just pure awareness. Whether this is "god" I could not say...and I think the term "god" is just too limiting... it's more like a all-encompassing and universal consciousness.. at least that what it feels like.

I suspect we may discover that our entire reality is constructed of "thought"... tickles me pink!

Namasté
 shanedk
Joined: 8/26/2007
Msg: 58
Is there a god?
Posted: 3/15/2008 1:17:13 PM
Way back early in the thread, rockondon said that there was no evidence for or against God, and "when I'm confronted by an absence of evidence I prefer to suspend judgement."

My question to everyone who feels this way: Do you also suspend judgement about the existence of unicorns? Mermaids? The Celestial Teapot? The Flying Spaghetti Monster?

In science, there's something called the Null Hypothesis. Basically, in order to support the notion that something exists you have to falsify the notion that it doesn't exist. So if you invent a new medicine, you have to prove it works better than a placebo.

If you have a good imagination, you can come up with all sorts of things you don't believe in: an invisible pink unicorn, little people living on a dust mote, or Morlocks living in the core of the Earth. How easily could you live your life if you had to suspend judgement on all of these? If, with every step you took, you had to consider the possibility you were destroying an entire civilization living on that pebble or blade of grass, how could you do anything?

The Null Hypothesis is not only necessary for science, it's necessary for just living our daily lives. So, why should God get special dispensation here?
 Ravenstar66
Joined: 8/27/2007
Msg: 59
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Posted: 3/15/2008 2:09:34 PM
Yes, I do. I CAN do that.. and I absolutely do it all the time

I don't know if there aren't morlocks or unicorns or even faeries (or dryads, kelties, aliens, ESP...ect...DRAGONS!!!)... they COULD exist.. and that's where I am at.. the field of potential. I can not in good conscience call myself open-minded if the POSSIBILITY of that which I have not experienced is ruled out. If I do that I have prejudiced myself against any or all evidence to the contrary.. and therefore am NOT truly open-minded and have shut the door to learning anything new. And I like the Flying Spaghetti Monster...as a mental construct and a symbol of the illogic of some people's belief systems he most certainly does exist. R'amen

ALL is Possible.. or so I have been told. Now probable is a completely different thing. Then we get into theoretical mathematics. I don't think there is a theoretical physicist who could say that there is anything that is "impossible".

It takes more imagination to suspend judgement than it does to make a judgement.
 Merrylass
Joined: 12/30/2007
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Posted: 3/15/2008 2:10:56 PM

Merrylass

I think I love you


LOL! Great! Change genders and we'd have a good thing going.



more like an all-encompassing and universal consciousness.


Agreed.



I suspect we may discover that our entire reality is constructed of "thought"... tickles me pink!


Me, too. It's delicious!

Namasté, Ravenstar

Merry
 CountIbli
Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 61
Is there a god?
Posted: 3/15/2008 2:50:59 PM
Merrylass wrote:



To unbelievers: prove that ANY abstract concept exists. Give me a photo of 'thought'.


Sure:

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/brain/scanning/cat.html
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/brain/scanning/pet.html
 CountIbli
Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 62
Is there a god?
Posted: 3/15/2008 2:57:23 PM


As for me, I choose to believe in God as opposed to Nothingness causing everything to exist.


What caused god to exist? If you say that god always existed then I say the universe always existed. If you can believe in an uncreated god then you can believe in an uncreated universe. The difference is that we can observe the universe.



The atheist says I am nothing and nothing is from whence I came


I haven't heard any Atheists say this. I'm not even sure what you mean by nothing. If you mean the vacuum, then it should be pointed out that the vacuum is not nothing. Indeed, it's an infinite sea of energy.



For me the overwhelming evidence is I was created rather than just happened to exist.


The overwhelming evidence is that energy/matter can neither be created nor destroyed.
 Nice2phku
Joined: 2/14/2008
Msg: 63
Is there a god?
Posted: 3/19/2008 11:06:07 AM
No one knows the Nothingness, for it is God. Indeed, the prime mover of all things is beyond what is, and therefore unknowable. Something, on the other hand is knowable and is a reflection of the the Unknowable. I agree Nothingness is not a vacuum, all we know is Something exists. Our dreams and meditations tell us that we are something else than this body in which we reside. The true us is of the Nothingness and we long to join this None-thing and perhaps to maintain our self perception.
 CountIbli
Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 64
Is there a god?
Posted: 3/19/2008 6:52:14 PM
That's a picture of the brain during the thought process and doesn't show an actual thought.

That is an actual thought. Thoughts are a kind of brain activity. If you think that thoughts are something more than this then provide some evidence to back that up.
 CountIbli
Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 65
Is there a god
Posted: 3/19/2008 6:58:56 PM
My criteria would be 'Does accepting and following God make me a better person?' and the answer is mostly definately yes. People who insist on proof are missing the point. the message from God given to us whether it be via Jeus Christ, Buddha, Mohammed....is one of love and living life in a good and positive way.

If that's true then we should see better behavior from Theists than we do for Atheists. Do we? Not really. Atheists are actually under-represented in the prison system. I wonder what percentage of terrorists are Atheists. Most people on the planet are Theists. If Theism is so good then why is the world in such a sad state?
 E.Kyro
Joined: 10/3/2005
Msg: 66
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Posted: 3/20/2008 1:30:43 PM

If you claim your god as ALWAYS existed, that will beg the questions, "then why can't the universe have existed for eternity?"


Which in turn would beg the question, "is the universe God?"

Seems that some picture God as a bearded old man rather than the spirit or force that Jesus said He is. We could be seeing "God" every moment of every day but because the idea is that He has a human form, His true nature is missed leading some to say there is no God.

The real debate is whether there is an intelligence who is the primary cause/mover in the universe or whether we humans are the best that random chance has to offer.
 Nice2phku
Joined: 2/14/2008
Msg: 67
Is there a god?
Posted: 3/23/2008 9:05:34 AM

I don't see that it has to be limited to that. The universe is thought to be between 13 to 14 billion years old. Remember, humans have been around for a mere 150,000 years or so, drop in the bucket comparatively spaking. Within the 13 to 14 billion years of the universe, life elsewhere may have also started by chance on another planet(s), so we may not be the best random chance has to offer, there may be, may have been, or may even yet to come... life much more advanced than we could ever be. Then again, maybe not... It's OK to say "I don't know"....


I have many atheist friends, and love to debate, we agree to disagree and maintain our friendship. In the above quote, we agree. And who knows if this is the first expansion of the universe, or the quintillionth expansion, if the Big Bang theorist are correct. We deal in theory, of what we perceive. If life exist here, than why not out there in the expanses of the universe, or in other dimensions united at the quanta levels. Perhaps there are quintillion of dimensions, not just the 11 theorized by linear thinking scientists. Maybe, these dimension overlap at certain wave lengths were they can only interact at certain brainwave length, such as the Alpha and Theta level, which would explain hypnagogic and hynopompic dream hullincination. Perhaps instead of one universes, universes exist at the infinity level. All have been theorized and contemplated, yet; are not observable and therefore, as of yet, not provable.

Perhaps someday they will devise a imaging devise, which will be able to take pictures and reveal that we are indeed surround by a host of beings invisible to us, except when we sleep and are brain waves are function at the Alpha/Theta level. Revealing our dreams are more real than we believe.

The main disagreement between atheist, and theist is the theist believes at the beginning there was a "push","prime mover" in the beginning, rather; than happenstance causing everything to come into existence. Neither, answer satisfies the other. Either you believe the universe is eternal, or God is eternal. In your case you the unverse has the same qualities as a god. It created itself. I believe, that which is unknowable created all things, whether it is illusionary or not. Don't you love it when other tell you what you believe.

Neanderthals, had a larger brain capacity and buried their dead in a ritual manner, giving us evidence they believed in an afterlife and had a conscience. It seems their only goal in life was to improve their stone knives, the sharpest of which survive to this day are sharper than are best scalpels knives. Perhaps, indeed, someday God will create a better more improve species, who knows. I know I have a spirit, and I am more than this meager shell I inhabit. My life force shall never perish, though its shell return to the nothingness of which it came. I have existed from the beginning of time in many forms, and shall exist again after this life is finished. Remember, there is more than what is observable to the senses. For we sense reality in a very narrow bandwidth. Don't be narrow minded. Olan
 The Artful Codger
Joined: 2/29/2008
Msg: 68
Is there a god?
Posted: 3/24/2008 10:48:36 AM
Is there a God?

From my perspective, if there were no God, this discussion would not exist.

The way I see things, there are as many deities as there are people who have considered the concept; whether those people love, worship, have faith, believe, don't believe, dismiss, deride or decide to give their lives in His/Her/Its/Their name or service.

From what I've observed, He/She/It/Them exist in reality as much for the people who believe as for the people who do not. Some people have all the proof of existence they need, some seek proof, others need no proof at all but know that they do not walk this path alone. Yet others consider the idea of the supernatural and see too many flaws in it, or see no evidence, or think it illogical, or silly.

From what I can ascertain, we all have our own personal experience of, relationship with and thoughts about the idea of the divine. To my mind, each of those individual thoughts, relationships, experiences and interpretations are as valid as the next.

Like beauty, the ethereal is in the eye (and in the heart and mind) of the beholder. Perception of God is personal. Tangible or not, knowable or not, provable or not ... your god, as you experience He/She/It/Them, exists (or does not) in your reality ... and in my reality, that's all that really matters.
 The Artful Codger
Joined: 2/29/2008
Msg: 69
Is there a god?
Posted: 3/24/2008 1:31:52 PM
Msg. 147:

So what would happen if 2 omni-potent(all powerful), omni-science(all knowing), and omni-present(present everwhere), God's should meet up with each other..? And where could they meet?

LOL!
The first thing that comes to mind are those Looney Tunes characters, Sam and Ralph...

From Wikipedia: Most of the cartoons begin at the beginning of the workday, in which Ralph and Sam go to a meadow where sheep graze, exchange chitchat, and punch into the same time clock. /... / At the end-of-the-day whistle, Sam and Ralph punch out their time cards, chat amiably, and leave, presumably only to come back the next day and do it all again.

I think such Gods as you describe meet up all the time in contemplation, consideration and conversation with all manner of ensuing results - depending on scope and the willingness and/or ability of those involved to accept divergence or similarity.
 CountIbli
Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 70
Is there a god?
Posted: 3/24/2008 3:30:04 PM
yes there is a God... that is, capital"G"
how do you think you were put into exsitance?
who made you?.....God!


I came into existence because my parents didn't use a condom. How did god come into existence?
 E.Kyro
Joined: 10/3/2005
Msg: 71
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Is there a god?
Posted: 3/24/2008 9:28:21 PM

How did god come into existence?


Whether gods, God or the universe, something had to be eternal. There is no getting around that fact unless you can prove that something can come from nothing. After that comes the question whether that eternal thing had intelligence.
 CountIbli
Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 72
Is there a god?
Posted: 3/24/2008 9:41:22 PM
Whether gods, God or the universe, something had to be eternal. There is no getting around that fact unless you can prove that something can come from nothing. After that comes the question whether that eternal thing had intelligence.

I believe the universe is eternal and see no signs that it's intelligent.
 E.Kyro
Joined: 10/3/2005
Msg: 73
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Posted: 3/24/2008 9:59:23 PM

I believe the universe is eternal and see no signs that it's intelligent.


The Universe has many physical laws. That is indicative of intelligence.
 E.Kyro
Joined: 10/3/2005
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Is there a god?
Posted: 3/25/2008 10:11:18 AM

Gods are simply gods-of-gaps... they fill the gaps in knowledge of humans... they are placeholders for REAL knowledge until we discover reasons. Sometimes we never find the reasons, but that doesn't mean it must be a god.


Even when we do have REAL knowledge it doesn't mean it isn't God who is prime mover. Science operates on the idea that there is a primary cause for everything but yet cannot determine what that cause is but still attempts to insist that it isn't an intelligent designer or God. Sorry, but since they have no evidence then it would be unscientific to offer an opinion as if it is truth. The best they can say honestly is that they do not know and therefore a God is within the realm of possibilities.
 Nice2phku
Joined: 2/14/2008
Msg: 75
Is there a god?
Posted: 3/25/2008 10:43:48 PM
Agreed E. Kyro, all scientific evidence points to a moment when there was nothing, then sometime, plus; we can see perhaps only 10% of the knowable universe. God, It, is the prime mover of the beginning of events. What boggles the mind of the atheist is who created God, a limitation of the human mind. The human mind wonders what is beyond the universe, what is outside, where does that end, and then what is beyond the end. Our minds, by design, work in linear in manner saying because of this event, then this result happens. Which is not the thinking of a higher power. Eternity is unfathomable by the human mind and has the same qualities we attribute to God. Because we are finite, in body, we believe all things must end, which is not how existence works.

To think of God takes faith, or believing things exist which we cannot explain. The universe is limitless, both in size and dimensions, from quanta levels to mega levels, no end exists. Other atheist say, because we are so small that we could not matter to God, yet; if God perceives through his creation, ie, all living and non living things, then indeed, God can perceive all things. Others argue, because evil exist then, and God is Good then how could God great evil. From what we can perceive all things exist in tandem, i.e., positive and negative forces to balance the universe. If we did not understand what is immoral we could not know what is moral. The duality of the Good and Evil has been in debate since the earliest of times. The Zoroastrians believe in the eternal struggle of Good and Evil, yet; what is perceived as evil is not a problem to the Hindu belief system as Kali is seen as a force of reconstruction and is worship as a part of the balance of things.

Satan is never reveal as other than an obedient servant of God. Satan is not a god, rather; his creation with freewill. Temptation is a thing to overcome, not to succumb too. Ores are purified by fire, and only if you see death as and end, do you see death as an evil.
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