Notice: Forums will be shutdown by June 2019

To focus on better serving our members, we've decided to shut down the POF forums.

While regular posting is now disabled, you can continue to view all threads until the end of June 2019. Event Hosts can still create and promote events while we work on a new and improved event creation service for you.

Thank you!

Plentyoffish dating forums are a place to meet singles and get dating advice or share dating experiences etc. Hopefully you will all have fun meeting singles and try out this online dating thing... Remember that we are the largest free online dating service, so you will never have to pay a dime to meet your soulmate.
     
Show ALL Forums  > Religion  >      Home login  
 AUTHOR
 dreamboat333
Joined: 2/13/2008
Msg: 191
Is there a god?Page 6 of 26    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26)
Lashandra 777 posted:


Or, those who take exception with it COULD stope reading, but which came first; the chicken or the egg.


The chicken?




Look, the bottom line is of the approximate 450 posts in this thread, over 75% believe in a God, Gods, Goddesses, some kind of deity - so I just can't understand why a polite discussion on God and the existance of God has to bring about such discord.


Right you are. I came here to find people POLITELY discuss their ideas regarding the questions "Is There A God".

Instead I have read and responded to people who want to bash The Church and Her pofession of faith in God.

This is the nature of it, however, that those who are without The Saving Grace will throw rocks at those of us who are Under The Blood. And really, if Satan came to tempt Our Savior in his time - why should you or I be any different?

"The Matrix is the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth."
--- Morpheus "The Matrix"
 dreamboat333
Joined: 2/13/2008
Msg: 192
Is there a god?
Posted: 5/28/2008 6:53:03 AM
LashAndra777 wrote

It's from Latin phrase meaning "bringer of light": Lux Um Ferrios = Lucifer.


Don't you mean Lucem Ferre?

In Latin, the word "Lucifer", meaning "Light-Bringer" (from lux, lucis, "light", and ferre, "to bear, bring"), is a name for the "Morning Star" (the planet Venus in its dawn appearances).

The Latin Vulgate version of the Bible used this word twice to refer to the Morning Star: once in 2 Peter 1:19 to translate the Greek word "Φωσφόρος" (Phosphoros), which has exactly the same literal meaning of "Light-Bringer" that "Lucifer" has in Latin; and once in Isaiah 14:12 to translate "הילל" (Hêlēl), which also means "Morning Star".

In the latter passage the title of "Morning Star" is given to the tyrannous Babylonian king, who the prophet says is destined to fall.

This passage was later applied to the prince of the demons, and so the name "Lucifer" came to be used for Satan, and was popularized in works such as Dante's Inferno and Milton's Paradise Lost, but for English speakers the greatest influence has been its use in the King James "Protestant" Version for what more modern English versions translate as "Morning Star" or "Day Star".
 dreamboat333
Joined: 2/13/2008
Msg: 193
Is there a god?
Posted: 5/28/2008 9:59:48 AM
romanticoptimist posted:


"The Roman Catholic Church is The legitimate Church founded by Jesus Christ"... The problem with a statement like that is its divisiveness. The "legitimate Church of Jesus Christ" is the Christian Church.


We are moving from "Is There A God" to "How Does The Church Observe God" - which I will try to speak to respectful of individual differences and with sensativity to the fact that my belief, regardless of how many millions of others may or may not adhere to, is only that - MY belief.

I respect your veiw point as being fundamentally valid with a caveat (and this is a point which nobody else needs to accept nor endorse).

The caveat is that The Catholic Church is religeously viewed by we Catholics as the "mother church"/original church from which other subsequent church's who identify themselves as Christian in place of Catholic slintered from.


There is no Supremacy, No Authority, no Legitimacy of one over the other.


Perhaps in my zeal I overstated the point of legitimacy because I do not set my words as authoritative nor about the proposition of The Roman Catholic Church, Her Magisterium nor certainly the of The Holy Father Pope Benedict XVI.

The reason for the statement was dran from policy decreed via The Vatican, Jul. 12, 2007. The Vatican issued a new doctrinal statement confirming the essential role of the Catholic Church in God's plan for salvation.

The short document from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (CDF), presented in question-and-answer format, addresses questions about the teaching of the Second Vatican Council that [the Church founded by Jesus Christ "subsists" in the Catholic Church].

The CDF affirms that while other Christian bodies can play a role in bringing people to salvation,[ it is in the Catholic Church that "the Church of Christ is concretely found on this earth."]

The Vatican document makes a further distinction between Orthodox churches that have preserved valid sacraments, and should be recognized as "sister churches," and Protestant groups that have not preserved the Eucharistic presence.

The document, entitled "Responses to Some Questions Regarding Certain Aspects of the Doctrine on the Church," is approved by Pope Benedict XVI and signed by Cardinal William Levada and Archbishop Angelo Amato, the prefect and secretary, respectively, of the CDF.

The full text of the document is available on the Vatican web site.

Granted, there are some who will disagree and I respect their right and privilledge to do so. But my decision to accept, protect and promulgate this finding of truth, as I accept it to represent is a matter of my religeous freedom for which I am prepared to be forgiven.

Respectfully yours - Dreamboat333.
 dreamboat333
Joined: 2/13/2008
Msg: 194
Is there a god?
Posted: 5/28/2008 12:47:28 PM
romanticoptimist writes:


I don't see the point in quoting Catholic sources to refute my statement that the only "legitimate Church" of Jesus Christ is the "Christian Church", not the "Catholic Church".


I appreciate that you disagree with me - and I uphold your right to do so. I am the genuine article freind. I respect your search for the truth.

I do not seek to refute your statement - only to better define my own statement and that is why I, as a devout Catholic, quote to you from what I understand to be The Church which is and was founded by Jesus Christ.



What does Jesus say about the claim that the Catholic Church is the only legitimate Church?


That is a good question, and I am glad you asked because the answer is in the question. What Jesus said about the claim the the Catholic Church is THE CHURCH is as follows: Matthew 16 "And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church"... New American Bible Copyright © 1991, 1986, 1970 Confraternity of Christian Docterine.

Now this was, according to my humble understanding of the teachings of my Church, which is and was founded by Jesus Christ and is comprised of we, the faitful who are The Body of Christ, the establishment of Apostolic Succession:

http://www.transporter.com/FatherPeffley/Apologetics/deed.html



"The Roman Catholic Church is the legitimate Church founded by Jesus Christ", other than the spurious claim regarding the "keys" and Peter -- because even if that could be established, you would still have to establish that Jesus intended the authority of Peter to be passed on by the laying of hands, show a continuous, undivided, and uncontested process to the current Pope


I know. I understand. I have been where you are going and I have found answers to these questions. This is why I say with an uttermost peace of heart and mind that I am content with The Church and seek only to conform to the will og God as expressed through the teachings of The Magisterium.

You have your rights and I enjoy these very same rights. I try to enjoy them with a contrite heart and a willingness to serve.



When I hear this argument about the authority and superiority of the Catholic Church (or the Southern Baptists, or the Pentecostals, or the Charismatics, or any other group), I'm reminded of the story Jesus told about seeking the higher place at the table and then being told to move to a lower place and the embarrassment that causes.


This is interesting brother - because when I think of it I always think of that part in The Bible (which we repeate together as one body at every Mass) where the soldier says of his suffering slave: "Lord I am not worthy to recieve you, but only ay the word and I shall be healed"...

Luke Chapter 7
1 When he had finished all his words to the people, he entered Capernaum.
2: A centurion 3 there had a slave who was ill and about to die, and he was valuable to him.
3: When he heard about Jesus, he sent elders of the Jews to him, asking him to come and save the life of his slave.
4:They approached Jesus and strongly urged him to come, saying, "He deserves to have you do this for him,
5: for he loves our nation and he built the synagogue for us."
6: And Jesus went with them, but when he was only a short distance from the house, the centurion sent friends to tell him, "Lord, do not trouble yourself, for I am not worthy to have you enter under my roof. 4
7: Therefore, I did not consider myself worthy to come to you; but say the word and let my servant be healed.
8: For I too am a person subject to authority, with soldiers subject to me. And I say to one, 'Go,' and he goes; and to another, 'Come here,' and he comes; and to my slave, 'Do this,' and he does it."
9 :When Jesus heard this he was amazed at him and, turning, said to the crowd following him, "I tell you, not even in Israel have I found such faith."
10: When the messengers returned to the house, they found the slave in good health.


If you knew something that was harmful to the Catholic Church and was a crime or an immoral act, would you reveal it or not? What is more important, the truth and justice or the Catholic Church?


The Church, in my belief system IS truth and justice as established by Christ and through which He operates.

I understand that you disagree with me and I hope that we can politely agree to disagree because I firmly believe that I will not change your mind, which is ultimately between you and God anyway.

Please try to understand that I live by these teachings and I fully embrace the fact. No amount of public scorn or humiliation will change that fact. When my saviour hung from the cross he begged forgiveness for the people who did that to Hou.

Who am I, a lowly sinner, to hold a grudge against my brothers in light of His grace? I only say Peace Be With You. Wherever you worship, be there come Sunday morning.

 transcend
Joined: 1/13/2007
Msg: 195
view profile
History
Is there a god?
Posted: 5/31/2008 11:29:31 AM
the backbone of any organized faith is the written word
be it Bible,Torah, Koran or whatever oral to written tradition
forms the basis for religious training ,discussion and indoctrination
the scope of what is there, the stories intertwined offer readers a chance
to connect with the past and feel a portion of the more impactful direct connection
to whatever being from up the levels of complexity has dropped down to say hi

I do think its funny to see emotions drive the intellect..
the results of that are never less than pathos to humor to pathos transitions
although watching others ignore their own self created blind spots isnt
must watch TV ..
it can help us lift the curtain on our own little corners of concealment
irony might be lost to those in the throes of posturing without a portfolio
still i can grasp the gains offered by commiting to anything that promises
a road with company , one that leads to whatever place you have to die to see.

i think the extremes human conflict creates, the needless dying ,suffering and
personality perversions that the opportunity to explore the power of life and death seldom fails to bring to flower has to be seen as evil ..
even without a devil to design it all. Or a God to somehow fail to save the day
 transcend
Joined: 1/13/2007
Msg: 196
view profile
History
Is there a god?
Posted: 5/31/2008 1:27:52 PM
a system of right and wrong exists for all of us
some need it applied externally with rewards and punishments clearly listed
others develop their own internal system that feeds off an empathy for others
how our actions affect others become rewards and punishments to our own spirit

i could care less which you choose, internal or external.. but choose you will
 transcend
Joined: 1/13/2007
Msg: 197
view profile
History
Is there a god?
Posted: 5/31/2008 3:49:42 PM
i can make a serious attempt to be tolerant toward all but I refuse to accept the abuses so many suffer as "OK" just because it isnt right in my face

i will not love those that torture ,disfigure and enslave
I will not love those that murder and torment the helpless
i will not love those that drive slower than me..
ok, i think that does it....
 transcend
Joined: 1/13/2007
Msg: 198
view profile
History
Is there a god?
Posted: 5/31/2008 4:08:24 PM
laws are made by those that have the power to make and enforce them
right and wrong are not always a part of the deal
when it comes to sexual mutilation, gender slavery and institutionalized abuses , the local customs might not just be quaint and just fine for us to accept..
you have the right to swallow what you please just as i have the right to spit it out
and don't ever think that taking yourself too seriously won't give you psychic ulcers...
 themadfiddler
Joined: 10/16/2006
Msg: 200
Is there a god?
Posted: 6/2/2008 11:26:24 AM
Verily I did see Him...and Lo! He did touch me with his Noodly Appendage...and his wisdom was pasta-long to me. *Makes the sign of the Fusili* "Arribatta arribatta, canelloni a bolognese funghi romano al dente al dente...RAmen"
 themadfiddler
Joined: 10/16/2006
Msg: 201
Is there a god?
Posted: 6/2/2008 9:38:07 PM

Also, to acknowledge that the Abrahamic god has foreknowledge is to assume he is malevolent toward us and had the intention to be so before he created us, since if he sees all things before and after they'll happen then even accounting for free will he still sees all things, including what we will do with our free will. This means he created Adam and Eve with the foreknowledge that they'd eat of the tree of knowledge. If he knew that given the chance to, they would do this and he also knew he didn't want them to do this, Why not put the tree of knowledge and the tree of life outside the garden of Eden? He had the ENTIRE REST OF THE UNIVERSE to put those two trees in. Sounds like that is a god that set us up to fail, knowing that we would do so, if he's true.


You know this story gets much easier to deal with if you know two important details. Firstly, it's not originally a story from the Hebrew Bible. It's a myth derived from earlier Sumerian and Akkadian stories. Second and most importantly, the concept of literal historical narratives is a very late invention, relatively speaking and even by the time of the collation of the Hebrew Bible, around the First Temple period, had not even been conceived of yet.

Anyone who tells you different is, frankly, ignorant of the history of the written word, both religious and secular and most certainly doesn't have a clue about Near Eastern religion and how it developed. Likely they are only basing their ideas on a "faith based" perspective...and gently put, that might wash around the table in Sunday School with fellow believers but in an actual discussion out in public, "that dog won't hunt."

The writers of religious texts wrote in a metaphoric, poetic style. Even those people conveying historical events did so for the longest time. The very idea of recording or documenting history in a detailed and scientific fashion is only a couple of hundred years old. Keep in mind you are dealing with mythic concepts that are shaped by groups of people who emerge from certain cultures, times, and geographies. Their beliefs will literally be shaped by the land, interaction with their neighbours, the weather, wtc. Perhaps for a inerrant literalist, this will be blasphemy...but then any discussion of this nature will so it's simply best to ignore them anyway as a rational discourse will not be possible.

As to Abraham negotiating with God in Sodom, one sees the very nature of God changing throughout the Jewish scriptures as the people change. The concept of God evolves from henotheism (the prime god among many and the only one worshipped) to pure monotheism by the time of the First Temple and the Babylonian Captivity.

Obviously by the time Christianity rolls around the Christians have changed the nature of God again by making a Trinity, and an incarnation of one element of it which does something totally anathema to the prior Jewish vision of God.

And then again, the Muslim view is yet another view of the Abrahamic God...

Glad that's not something I have to deal with except as an observer.

 themadfiddler
Joined: 10/16/2006
Msg: 203
Is there a god?
Posted: 6/3/2008 1:02:50 PM


The "Jehovah" god of christianity admits there IS other "gods". "Thou shalt have no other gods before me!" One of those pesky 10 commandments I believe. Notice the wording....he places himself FIRST...before other gods. So, as long as you recognize him as the primary functionary, everything is cool.
Ask yourself...why would anyone place themselves as first if there was only one? Hmmm....


Well if you saw my post, as religious historians have rightly observed, the view of the God of Abraham has evolved over time.

He wasn't always just the only game in town. Back in the very very beginning he was one of the Sons of EL and even EL wasn't the only game in town in a polytheistic universe. But henotheism is the progression of believing in the idea that your tribes' god is bigger and better than everyone else's.

Maybe you have a run of good luck in battle, good crop years, healthy births. Your god is clearly smiling on you and not your enemies. Therefore, he is clearly more powerful. The people of the Near East literally also believed that their gods dwelled on earth and that their power came out of their temple dwelling places. This also affected how their power could and would be perceived. As far as can be perceived historically, the god of Abraham has conglomerate origins in several deities that eventually converge into one single deity cult much much later in history, much like any other multifaceted complex deity like Brahma of Hinduism.

Later Judaism rejects this notion by portraying God as a single unified entity but the multiple names of God betray the original because hidden in those names are the original godnames of the origin deities. As well, in the mystical study of Jewish Kabbalah, the multiple emanations that reflect the multiple aspects of divine power in creation reflect the spheres of influence in nature that would ordinarily be assumed by the various gods or goddesses in a polytheistic pantheon of deities.

This is NOT commonly accepted amongst Jews, nor even among Jewish Kabbalists and is noted as my opinion but is also the opinion of many scholars of Near Eastern Religion and Western Mysticism. Those seeking further information on sources can contact me offline.
 UnzippedPassion
Joined: 10/30/2005
Msg: 204
view profile
History
Is there a god?
Posted: 6/3/2008 9:31:46 PM
I believe in God the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. I've felt the presence in such an intense unexplainable experience that nothing could make me doubt it as truth. I don't need to see any scientific doubts placed before me because I have faith....and that faith will never be distorted for any reason.

We all know right from wrong and the choice is ours. God gives us free will to make those decisions and when that final day of judgement comes, we will be the only ones held accountable for them.

To anyone who isn't sure whether or not He exists, I'd certainly prefer to error on the side of believing...than not! Of course that's my feelings on the topic and as much as I'd love to lead everyone there, some times we have to let others find their own way. I'll not argue, nor flame....but instead show love and compassion....pray, and have faith that some day they will.

Amen
 dreamboat333
Joined: 2/13/2008
Msg: 205
Is there a god?
Posted: 6/4/2008 9:16:14 AM
romanticoptimist on 5/30/2008 wrote to me a very lovely message:


I asked: What does Jesus say about the claim that the Catholic Church is the only legitimate Church?


Bless your heart. I had almost forgotten all about you - but then I took a glance and here you were still announcing against me from the roof tops. I respect, if nothing else, your tenacity (If I may be so bold).

To which I responded most appropriately that Jesus said, as is detailed in the book of Matthew 16 "And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church"

That is my answer to your request - plain and simple and drawn from the only source, which taken along with The Tradition of The Catholic Church, that I consider authoritative on the subject, "The Holy Bible".


Please speak plainly, are you claiming "the Roman Catholic Church is the only legitimate Church of Jesus Christ" or not.


You attempt to manufacture that my response is anything less than clear and well stated. So, to play into your arena - YES that is exactly what I believe. So flame on me brother, flame on me.


If you are, then we have nothing more to talk about and you have confirmed my suspicions that the core of ecumenism is elitism.


As I stated before, I will not change your mind - and you will not sway me from our faith, but if you feel better being the one who closes the door on communication, well then as much as I'll regret it - I guess you are going to have to stop communicating with me on this point.

Just understand "c l e a r l y" that the reason you give for your shunning me is not because of elitism so much as it is because in Roman Catholicism we believe that Jesus Christ (who is God incarnate) founded The Roman Catholic Church as mentioned above. Further, the position is clearly stated that The Roman Catholic Church acknowledges the legitimacy of The Orthodox Church as sister church and all Protestant and quasi-Christian Church's who have fallen away from The Roman Catholic Church are ecclesiastical bodies who are supportive to Christ's plan of salvation. However, The Roman Catholic Church is central to this plan of salvation.

I hope that was clear enough for you and the readers, because I stand in defense of this statement to the not-so-bitter end.


And that saddens me because for as long as one group of sibling believes themselves to be the "real" children, they consider the "others" to be "less than" and that will always prevent the oneness that Jesus prayed for in His High Priestly Prayer:


It wasn't Jesus who said that he was shutting the door to the dialogue, Brother, it was YOU. I'm sure that your faith encourages you to be accountable even to your God?


I asked: If you knew something that was harmful to the Catholic Church and was a crime or an immoral act, would you reveal it or not? What is more important, the truth and justice or the Catholic Church?


Why wouldn't I do the right thing, Brother? Because I am Catholic - isn't that a little cynical for you to imply in all your open mindedness?


And here is my problem because that group is then placed higher than justice and truth, and thus becomes an idol.


Well, you in all your exaltation are perfectly free to have your problem with me and my belief system and my Church and whatever else it is you want to point your finger at. I am not afraid, nor am I ashamed, God save us and will preserve us.

Again, you insinuations do not go unnoticed, but your worn out arguments merely do not warrant a dignified response.


Having dealt with those who have been abusers and abused in the Catholic Church, I can say that the most common excuse given for staying silent was to protect "the good name" of the Catholic Church.


There it is, Brother, you have cast the first stone - but I turn the other cheek and I ask you to deliver how ever many blows you feel will satisfy your God. Because indeed the accusations of the horrors of The Inquisition has not mitigated my faith in The Church founded by Jesus Christ and sustained by Pope Benedict XVI - neither will your attempt to cheapen and soil the merit and integrity of our Church.

Adolf Hitler was Lutheran - do I throw rocks at Lutherans and blame them for the Holocaust? Of course not because to do so would merely distract the readers, as your post attempts to do, from the reality of the facts.

Lutherans are no more responsible for The Holocaust then any of we good Catholics are responsible for the misdeeds of those who have been purged from The Church and who, now that Pope Benedict XVI has been installed, will continue to be ferreted out so that The Church continues to undergo it's cleansing.

We clear the way for a coming golden age wherein The Church will accomplish Her Mission more fully by the ardent and zealous believers who will seek to restore the world here and here again.
 dreamboat333
Joined: 2/13/2008
Msg: 206
Is there a god?
Posted: 6/4/2008 1:49:20 PM
Dear romanticoptimist:

Thank you for putting me straight. I guess, at the end of the long weary day - you told me.


And your sarcasm and patronising attempt to lord it over me is uncalled for. I simply didn't want to assume that what I thought you were saying was what you were saying.


Wait - you lunged at me friend. You have kept in on me, jibing and jabbing and all I have done is politely respond to your inquiries with my proclamation of faith.

Funny how when it is "one of us" speaking up it's "sarcastic and patronizing" and whatever other uppity things you want to lay on us. Whereas when it is you calling us rapists and baby killers, well you are stumbling down off the pinnacle of your mountain top to elevate the minds and souls of all us poor misguided fools.


A little clarity is always helpful. Clearly you have an elitist view of "your" church.


Friend, please try to refrain from making it personal. I don't know you and don't pretend to know what you do or do not think about God or the price of tea in China. But what I do know is that I have given you The Vatican's position on the matter.

Do I accept it as my own - after quite some research, yes I do - so if I am an elitest, then I am prepared to be forgiven for that as well.

{quote]So no stone throwing here.

You have repeated thrown stones over the hull while hiding behind your poxy sense of knowing it all. You insinuated repeatedly that to be a Roman Catholic is to condone molestation of children and to participate in covert efforts at silencing the truth and you should be called on it, again and again.


My Christianity includes all who call on the name of Jesus Christ for salvation without regard to any institution or denomination. Yours doesn't. So we disagree.


Despite how you attempt so painstakingly try to put YOUR WORDS into my mouth - any reader who wants to go back and reread my posts (the ones you haven't had deleted) will find I have never stated anything about who is or is not going to heaven and who is or is not "saved".

I have refraied from making this personal judgement because my understanding of the teaching of my Church is that this is not my place to assess, but only God's.


As for me, apparently I'm a "Heretic" according to your Church so I'm not sure if you should be talking to me or not.


You are a funny, funny guy. First you rail on and on about me and my Roman Catholic Faith - then you accuse through inuendo and insinuation that Catholics are guilty of conducting a clandestine effort at hurting children and hiding the truth - and when defeated you roll over on you back and act as though it is you being kicked.


By the way, Hitler was nominally a Roman Catholic, not a Lutheran. Not that it matters anyway, but it's always good to have facts instead of revisionist history in front of you when you attempt to defame a group of "other" Christians.


The point which I clearly made was that if we were to use the same logic with which you conduct your smear campaign against the Catholic Church then we would damn all Lutherans because Hitler belonged to the Lutheran Church.

I did not attempt to defame, nor as I stated do I consider it defamation (as you do) to say that so and so was a member of such and such church - that was the point I made.

Take you own advice when referring to The Roman Catholic Church friend. Hitler was not Catholic, he is well known to have been brought up in The Lutheran Church.

In Hitler’s words “the heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Catholicism” (Hitler, 1953, p. 6). The Jesuits were “swine,” and all of Catholicism was “Jewish Christianity” which was comparable with “Jewish Bolshevism.” Hitler concluded that both were evil and both had to be destroyed (Kershaw, 2000, pp. 330, 488). His reasoning was based on his belief that The Catholic Church was an “illegitimate” Jewish child and, as a Jewish child, was swine like its parent that must be eradicated.

The head of the Catholic Action organization, Dr. Erich Klausner, was murdered by Hitler’s stormtroopers. In an attempt to discredit the Church, monks were brought to trial on immorality charges.

Imagine, Catholics being brought up on charges of immorality - sound familliar?
 Jacobus101
Joined: 12/30/2007
Msg: 208
view profile
History
Is there a god?
Posted: 6/4/2008 4:32:04 PM

lashandra777:
...kind wierd that both Martin Luther and Hitler were Germans with strong anti Catholic opinnions that frequently interfaced with pro German xenophobia.


Well, technically, Hitler was an Austrian. I don't think the Nazis considered him the ubermensch (since he was Austrian and dark-haired), but rather, the Herald of the ubermensch, if that makes any sense. That being said, I love Austria and their culture. The last Emperor of Austria, Blessed Karl V, was in my opinion the greatest ruler of the 20th century.

Anti-Roman and anti-Catholic sentiments have been in place in Germany for a long time. I'd add Bismarck, the founder of modern Germany, to that list. His kulturkampf program was, among other things, an attempt to marginalize Catholicism in modern Germany.
 dreamboat333
Joined: 2/13/2008
Msg: 209
Is there a god?
Posted: 6/4/2008 4:45:18 PM
abc writes:


Many scientists I know feel that faith and sience are two fairly independent cognitive processes...


They would seem to be. But as you have pointed out we are limited in our scope so we must remain the student seeking the light.


would be nice to connect them together some day, but then, it would be nice to connect Gravitational, Electromagnetic and other fields together, too.


Doesn't Kabballah shed light on such a marriage of forces?


I believe that whoever comes up wtih the Great Unification Theory will also come very close to proving the existence of God


Albert Einstein commented on The Unified Field Theory which Kabballah terms Asiah?


Of course, this God might turn out to be quite different from all we could imagine..


Doesn't He always.
 themadfiddler
Joined: 10/16/2006
Msg: 210
Is there a god?
Posted: 6/4/2008 8:52:47 PM


Doesn't Kabballah shed light on such a marriage of forces?

Albert Einstein commented on The Unified Field Theory which Kabballah terms Asiah?


You are dealing with two very different worldviews here. Asiah is not really a descriptive of the "unified field theory" but just a term to describe the material realm. It would be a pretty big leap of semantics to say that it specifically implied "the sticky forces that holds all reality together" when there are more specific ideas about that in Kabbalah but that is well beyond the scope of this thread and most of the readers here I dare say.

And really guys, discussions of Hitler's Christianity or lack thereof...talk about regurgitating the "No True Scotsman" fallacy. In any case, this secular site does a much better job of disseminating the history of Hitler's beliefs, warts and all, including a thorough examination of the "Table Talk" references and how this has been misconstrued in discussions of Hitler's beliefs.

http://www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm

Hitler was born a Catholic and was baptised as such. He was never formally excommunicated, sadly, despite the conference of German bishops excommunicating all Nazis in 1930 and his technical excommunication via breaking canon law. Much of his ideas on anti-Semitism however DID come from Luther's "On The Jews and Their Lies" as I am sure it did for many other Germans and other Europeans, and in general two millenia of general anti-Semetic hatred and blood libel against the Jews for the supposed crime of deicide. Basic hatred of Jews and the blood libelling of them is however a feature of "any" Christian theology so I guess you can both point fingers happily at each other for history's sins...but...

THIS IS WATER UNDER THE BRIDGE Can we all bloody well move past this nonsense now? I don't think there is anyone who can admit to being free of guilt in this regard. It is time to move forward past the bickering. It really really is tiresome, not to mention factually incorrect. But it is well and truly in the past and not worth talking about now is it???
 dreamboat333
Joined: 2/13/2008
Msg: 212
Is there a god?
Posted: 6/5/2008 6:42:18 AM
I am honored to finally be addressed by the one, the only, Plenty of Fish's Preimier Sensation (hows that for an intro) The Mad Fiddler!

Where you wrote:



Doesn't Kabballah shed light on such a marriage of forces? Albert Einstein commented on The Unified Field Theory which Kabballah terms Asiah? - - -
You are dealing with two very different worldviews here. Asiah is not really a descriptive of the "unified field theory" but just a term to describe the material realm.


You are absolutely correct. I realized it once I had posted it -but you can't unring a bell.

I was posting in something of a hurry and mis-stated myself. In fact it was Ain which I was thinking of. And in fact Ain Sof Aur (Limitless Light) was more true the my thought.

Whereas the Ain Sof Aur or Limitless Light prospoes that the creative element and indeed the creator Himself is exenteded throughout all of creationg (thus a unified or unifying field) it is the Ruach (meaning "spirit", "wind", "breath", or "air". The Greek equivalent is "pneuma" and the Latin is "spiritus" the word used to refer to what sustains the life in a nephesh.) which actively asserts this action.

The challange that believers of all eras have come up against in trying to express their transcendental experiences to others is that these experiences lie beyond the bounds of the rational (and even intuitional) mind on which human written and verbal communication is based. Countless methods have been tried, including allegory, antinomy, poetry and mundane approximation; but all on the fact that transcendental experience cannot be adequately conveyed through sub-transcendental means of communication.

This challange occurs in Kabballism especially in discussions of the higher sefirot on the Tree of Life, and becomes insurmountable in discussing that which lies beyond or above the Tree. The Tree of Life (indeed the floor-plan of the unified field theory) expressed through the sefirot in the Four Worlds is as much as can usefully be conveyed to the human mind through language, and Atziluth and even Briah are really beyond human conception, their "structures" being hinted at through the tangible expressions of the sefirot in the lower worlds.

Ain (nothing)
Ain Sof (limitless nothing)
Ain Sof Aur (limitless light)

To define negative existence clearly is impossible, for when it is distinctly defined it ceases to be negative existence; it is then negative existence passing into static condition. Therefore wisely have the Kabbalists shut out from mortal comprehension the primal Ain, the negatively existent One, and the Ain Soph, the limitless Expansion; while of even the Ain Soph Aur, the illimitable Light, only a dim conception can be formed.



And really guys, discussions of Hitler's Christianity or lack thereof...


I hear you, I hear you loud and clear. I made a passing statement based on factual data and the which I never intended to illustrate more than the fact that religeous tolerance is more that another glib cliche. Then my good brother took hold of it and lost his mind - bless his soul.


Much of his ideas on anti-Semitism however DID come from Luther's "On The Jews and Their Lies" ...THIS IS WATER UNDER THE BRIDGE Can we all bloody well move past this nonsense now? I don't think there is anyone who can admit to being free of guilt in this regard.


As I have stated, re-stated and am stating again, my pointing out Adolf Hitler's active involvement in The Lutheran Church was intended solely to convey the necessity of religeous tolerance. As I stated, nobody would dream of pointing the finger at Lutheran's for the Holocaust simply because Adolf Hitler was a registered, card carrying, Sunday service attending member of the Lutheran Church.

HOWEVER - no good Catholic should ever be expected to have someone make such insulting accusations that by merit of involvement in The Catholic Church we are somehow prone to hurtful behavior or clandestine cover-ups/

The point you refer to would have been dropped immediately, had it not been for my brother's need to further exume the matter for examination in an failed effort at support for his slur on The Roman Catholic Church.

I certainly won't be revisiting it as I am certain there will be bigger fish to fry presently.
 themadfiddler
Joined: 10/16/2006
Msg: 214
Is there a god?
Posted: 6/5/2008 11:51:40 PM


I am honored to finally be addressed by the one, the only, Plenty of Fish's Preimier Sensation (hows that for an intro) The Mad Fiddler!


Now I can't get my head through the forum door...just a second *poke BLAM hisssssss* there we go



You are absolutely correct. I realized it once I had posted it -but you can't unring a bell.

I was posting in something of a hurry and mis-stated myself. In fact it was Ain which I was thinking of. And in fact Ain Sof Aur (Limitless Light) was more true the my thought.


Nae bother! And some good information on the Kabbalah which hopefully will spur others to at least give it a look. It is, imho, one way that people have tried to puzzle out the Great Mystery by overlaying it with a deep symbolic framework. When I first began to study it, I had no idea how thick the brush was...now of course I have hit the first roadblock which is not knowing Hebrew.

Now there's a bit of work to get at...
 themadfiddler
Joined: 10/16/2006
Msg: 215
Is there a mod?
Posted: 6/6/2008 9:44:38 PM


Well sir, that was a seus of a comment if I ever saw one myself..


Seus?? I'm gonna regret it but....what is a seus? Here it comes...LOL
Show ALL Forums  > Religion  >