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 Wandering Spirit
Joined: 5/25/2006
Msg: 51
The infamous NICE GUY rantPage 3 of 38    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38)
The "Nice Guy" rant (and related articles) is posted in Heartless Bit*hes.com
The WEB site is a good source for informaton on the female condition and relationships.

;^)
 molonel
Joined: 12/20/2005
Msg: 52
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 8/13/2006 10:58:24 AM
Ah yes, another "nice guy" circlejerk. I'll be careful and step lively so I don't get spooge on my sleeve.
 Rob_0126
Joined: 10/16/2005
Msg: 53
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 8/13/2006 12:37:18 PM
I must admit, I read some of it and saw some of my past aquaintances. I think the big problem is, society has forgotten about how to turn boys into men and girls into women. I remember hearing back in the days when the grandmother would teach her daughters girls how to be women and such, and the grandpas vise versa.

Looking back it is true that you have to like yourself first. If you do, then you will be aware of it when the opposite sex wants to just use you; Cant be 'too' trusting, sadly.

Mutual respect is a good indicator, no?
 ever_mortal_girl
Joined: 8/1/2006
Msg: 54
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 8/16/2006 5:16:09 AM
my brother is one of the nicest guys you will ever meet. sure he will let his girlfriend walk all over him but she better clean the house and have two meals ready for him and she can do all the walkign she likes. my brother is no wimp It's just in his mind there isn't much that there is worth fighting over. If he gets into a fight with her it's over something that matters other wise he just say yes ma'am . He is not romanic. but if she tells him she wants to go and she wants flowers and if it doesn't get in the way of anything that swhat he will be doing that night. He doesn't complain about all he has done for her he's happy to do it. and he always states just what he thinks, and needs he wouldn't bother telling anyone what he wants if he doesn't think they can provide it.











if you don't speak up how is a girl to know? we aren't mind readers. I personaly don't like people giving me flowers it's just I read this book when i was small and impressible and, what I got from it was the flower is the sexauly organ or a plant and your going to ripeit off give it to someone and they are going to put it on display Frankly that really use to freak me out an dit really doesn't make a lot of since if I get flowers I would like them to have roots. but I'm getting off track here just because your a nice guy doesn't mean you have to "give in" all the time if it's not worth fighting over then I will give into anything I don't like fighting but if it matters to me i will stand up for my self (and still try to avoid a fight. thats where learning tact comes in)
 cyrano77
Joined: 7/11/2006
Msg: 55
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 8/16/2006 5:38:22 AM
the thing I find most amusing (and yeah I mean this about the original article and the compulsion that the OP must have had to post it) about the forums on POF...is that there are so many people who are quite obviously not all that good at relationships (I include myself here) or else they wouldn't be wasting their time online on a dating site...they'd be frolicking with their love in the real world (if not then they aint got much of a keeper) who are so eager to trot out advice on relationships. Too effing funny. The blind leading the blind...
 MAN with the plan
Joined: 8/8/2006
Msg: 56
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 8/16/2006 6:49:51 AM
People reel each other in with a fasle face to some extent. Then they are equals or not. Saying one LET the other run over them is like blaming a store clerk for getting shot by an armed robber. For those of u not relating to last sentence go take the Millers analigies test.
The intial post here does not understand basic human relations and the power all people give each other, or take away which is what I am doing(for those of u tryin to catch up) .
 shellbell60
Joined: 3/13/2006
Msg: 57
view profile
History
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 8/18/2006 10:17:06 PM
Well put must-love-cats! But I agree with the poster who said that what you are describing is a man - a well adjusted one at that. I was married to a "nice guy" who was such a chameleon he had no identity of his own. Passive aggressive - they can't bear to face the truth about themselves and when they fail it is always your fault. Male or female - these people can never be filled up and tend to suck you dry.
 alonebutnotlonley
Joined: 6/6/2006
Msg: 58
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 8/19/2006 5:48:09 AM
For a rant it was immature, filled with teenage explicatives, had angst better reserved for a couch session with a skilled social worker or an anger management advisor. Your opinion would have been better received if it had been deilivered in a mature fashion. Good day to you.
 alonebutnotlonley
Joined: 6/6/2006
Msg: 59
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 8/20/2006 3:30:34 AM
It is called communication skills, not lofty standards. It is called getting your ideas across without resorting to childish language. It is pointing out you attacked a whole group of people with your lack of tact and care. Its a shame someone can reach your age and still have no inclination toward civility. I can only imagine the kind of pain and suffering you must have gone through in life and go through on a daily basis if your mind constantly revolves around such hostility. You were quite liberal with your generalizations as well. I have heard that almost all anger that you feel towards others is actually anger that you feel towards yourself. Perhaps you don't get to voice your opinion in the real world and are using this venue to "let go"?

If your rantings make you feel better I am glad for you. I do however believe your relief is probably short lived. There are better ways of handling stress. Your rant about ignorance sterotypical generalizations is interesting because you can see you did the same thing in your first post. If you stop and let go of the need to fight for one second can you see that?

I have questions regarding the credibility of an internet site called "heartless****es.com" but I will admit my ignorance and check it out in the near future. Wishing you truly the best, not sarcastically.
 thegreatrockyhill
Joined: 12/26/2005
Msg: 60
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 8/23/2006 8:08:47 PM
I am so sick of seeing these threads.

There is nothing wrong with being a nice person. Being a nice person does not make someone ineffectual, a wimp, insecure, etc.

It's so stupid.

Yeah, nice guys don't "score". Yeah, they don't get girls. Why? Because they don't play games or misrepresent themselves.

Our society needs more nice guys. Part of the problem with our society is that being male is equated with being abrasive, rude, in it for yourself, and having a lack of compassion and respect for others. Men are afraid to treat women and other people in general well for fear of being booted out of the "dude" club.

Yeah, the jerks do well. They do. Because they're good b*llsh*tters. They go for women that are weak-minded, naive, etc. But they never seem to maintain relationships. They just go through one woman after another. The nice guys don't succeed because they don't want to play a game, which is all that the jerks are doing.


I'm so sick of "nice" being equated with something negative. One can be sensitive and strong at the same time.

I'm not changing who I am. If I end up alone for the rest of my life, then so be it. I'm not succumbing to the frat-boy culture.

There is nothing wrong with opening your heart to a woman. There is nothing wrong with being romantic. There is nothing wrong with being a good, respectful person. Any woman who doesn't want flowers on a first date or be told that she is loved isn't someone worth being with because she obviously doesn't love herself or want to be loved. Either that or she just wants convenience. And of course people in general are so cynical anymore.
 Etownboy79
Joined: 8/3/2006
Msg: 61
view profile
History
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 8/24/2006 1:11:27 PM
In Iwarriors statement, and to all those who give him a : you are completing your own self-fulfilling prophecy by believing your own lies. This is not meant to be an antagonistic post, so hear me out objectively before your rebuttal is posted. Let me explain how you are lying to yourself to justify your own behaviour, and how lying to yourself is common "nice guy/doormat" behaviour, which makes this subject so much more difficult, because the ones it is meant to help are the same ones that can't understand the words because of their own emotional walls connected to being a "nice guy/doormat".

The following is not intended for people who consider themselves nice guys, but possess all or most of the "normal guy/real man" traits. Sit back and think about which one you are. If you are a nice guy that generally is not afraid of people (male or female), or not afraid of being in a big group of people, not afraid to speak in public with all attention on you and things of this nature than you are probably a well rounded, non-doormat nice guy, and this post is not aimed at you. Now, if you occasionally think that people are making fun of you behind your back, and that worries you, or the idea of formal speaking in front of a large group of people scares you, or you don't have as much success with women as most men do, then you may benefit from this post.

Iwarrior: I read your profile and I hope it's okay that I share parts of it with the audience of this thread to help me underline the ideas I'm trying to convey. First off, your profile is very well written grammatically, congratulations, but I see the "nice guy" shining through in your words. Your profile will be viewed by women as one belonging to a man that is overly apologetic, unsure, approval seeking and "wussy". No woman wants that. These are just my opinions, and I'm only trying to help, but maybe I'm way off base anyway. Either way, let me explain why I believe this to be true:

Your headliner: Hey, hey hey, don't just walk on by.

While this is different and clever, here is what I think the confident, no time wasting, "desirable" girl will see: Hey! Please give me a chance before you ignore me like the rest.

It kinda smells like you've been "walked by" too many times before, you know? So, "desirable" women see this and will take the hint from the previous girls that have "walked by", because "desirable" women don't want to waste your time, or theirs by picking up the baggage of, an under-confident due to over rejected/self-esteem issued, man. Yes, from a male point of view it is an unfair game that women play, but it is instinctual for them to make such snap decisions. Here's why. Imagine if you were a "desirable" woman. That means you get hit on 10 or more times per day by every kind of guy imaginable, from the aggressive to the rich to the "nice". She has to filter through these personalities quickly to find the ones she is interested in, and if you're not what she is interested in, you'll know it quickly. This is the reason some of you might consider the really hot girls to be "bit*hes". The truth is, she knows exactly what she wants, and won't bother wasting precious time with anything less, and she has every right to do this, since she can just about get any guy she wants.

Your final statement was also something that seemed kind of like you were begging for approval. It was two phrases that read something like: If you will go out with me, you might be known as the girlfriend of a rockstar someday. If I've captured your imagination, drop me a line.

The first sentence is humourous, but the way you worded it sounded more like a bribe done by someone that's running out of game. How about: If I choose to go out with you, you might get to be a rockstars girlfriend someday. You see? Second sentence also sounds like your asking for her to like you, and not the other way around as it should be. Maybe: If you think you can keep up to me and have your imagination captured, then why don't you drop me a line.

Now, I'm going to dissect your post. I'm going to show you what I promised earlier, why it's a lie to yourself.

"Yeah, nice guys don't get the girls. Why? Because we don't play games or misrepresent ourselves."

Guys that are succesful with women misrepresent themselves less often than a "nice guy/doormat". Being successful with desirable women does not in any way mean that you are being caniving, or that you are operating smoothly with a hidden agenda. In fact, it's quite the opposite. Being successful with those types of women usually requires the honesty of a confident man. It requires being a sexual power that understands that he is trying to convey attraction to a woman through attitude and body language, and has no fear of doing so. That does not mean that this man simply wants to get in her pants, but only that he is interested in her as much as one can be on a first meeting with a women. He is interested in beggining the courting process, and if things work beyond that, perhaps more. This is the early stages of the courtship process from EVERY man's perspective, but tactics vary greatly. The "nice guy/doormat" will shy away from conveying a sexual attraction in it's instinctive form, and instead will resort to things like: buying drinks/gifts, being a "good friend" when you hardly know her, and just tip-toeing around the issue of sexuality and dating. DESIRABLE women view this type of behaviour as dishonest, and it is. Women that are desirable do not appreciate this type of behaviour because they understand the true motives behind them, yet you can't make a move since the thought of doing so paralyzes you with fear. So you see, this type of behaviour is the truly misrepresental one, masked by being a good deed or two with no valid reason, but always wanting more.


"Part of the problem with our society is that being male is equated with being abrasive, rude, in it for yourself, and having a lack of compassion and respect for others. Men are afraid to treat women and other people in general well for fear of being booted out of the "dude" club."

The kind of male that has this attitude is not usually one that is successful with women. Women aren't stupid you know, they can see right through that chovenistic, brutish, rudeness almost immediately. You are talking about the type of guy that actively seeks out fights so he can beat up on others cause he's bigger or stronger, and not the type that's just defending his rights or pride in a fight. You are talking about a wife abuser. You are talking about the type of guy that would violate a woman's privacy by wooing her by getting her drunk, and then secretly broadcasting his conquest of her in the bedroom over the internet with a hidden camera. I assure you that most men that are like this are not successful with women the way they truly want to be. The problem is that you have associated men that are honestly successful with women as being of this type as well, which is a stereotype you have to stop believing.


"I'm not changing who I am. If I end up alone for the rest of my life, then so be it."

No, no one is suggesting that you change your personality, but trying different methods to attract the women you want does not mean you are changing yourself. This thinking is like refusing to take a defensive driving course on the basis that you don't want to change who you are, despite all the accidents you get into.



"There is nothing wrong with opening your heart to a woman. There is nothing wrong with being romantic. Any woman who doesn't want flowers on a first date or be told that she is loved isn't someone worth being with."

That's true, but not before she is attracted to you. A first date set of flowers depends on how well you know her. If you don't know her that well, than the flowers are to bribe her to have feelings of attraction toward you, which IS sneaky and underhanded. If you sense that the woman you are trying to woo is not attracted to you, and you try to pull this stuff off, that IS wrong and rude. It's wrong because it is a blackmail tactic. It's like saying, "I really love/like you and I think you should go out with me" before she is attracted to you. When you do this, it is intended as a come on with a tiny bit of guilt attached because they don't feel the same way you do about them. Doing this before you have established the attraction is most certainly wrong, and a typical "nice guy/doormat" type of behaviour.



Saying that you are righteous for behaving this way is your lie to yourself, but it's only because society has taught you to act this way. I won't go into how society does this, but I could prove it with another long winded essay or two. For now, you'll just have to believe me. One truth that must be admitted, on behalf of all men is this. If we see a woman and find her attractive, we immediately think lusty thoughts. This is true for ALL male personalities, be it "nice guys", "real men", "bad boys" etc. But, the "nice guy/doormat" personality views himself as being above his own biology by doing the things that "nice guy/doormats" do. Sometimes the "nice guy/doormat" can be found listening to a woman complain about something and being reassuring even when she's wrong, or when he'd rather be anywhere else. This is his classic behaviour, among others. Do not justify this type of behaviour to yourself as being the right thing to do, because when you act this way, your motivation is to gain her approval and hopefully become romantically involved, and your motivation is not to genuinely help her. What do you think what you call an "a$$hole" would do in the same situation? He'd point out where he believes that she acted inappropriately, and tell her that she should make amends. That does genuinely help her, and he won't have to listen to her complaints anymore either. This is what women mean when they say that they want "honesty".

Summary: You either still feel you are right, and will continue acting this way. Or, you will realize that there must be a reason that "a$$holes" are getting all the women you want, and then you will realize that maybe the common denominator with your lack of luck for women actually is you, and maybe there is a way to work on it instead of blaming the rest of society for your entire life. Your choice. I made my choice to come to the "dark side" a few years ago, and even though I'm not the super-stud I'd like to be, it's a road well worth travelling.

Good luck.
 bigmontanan
Joined: 7/25/2006
Msg: 62
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 8/24/2006 5:51:15 PM
This is the most concise and well communicated version of what I believe. Thanks for writing it here. Amen to strong, sensitive, NICE guys! If the women don't like it, they are missing out big time. I'll not hear any more ****ing about guys who treat women like crap.
 TheMarchHare
Joined: 8/9/2006
Msg: 63
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 8/24/2006 6:41:11 PM
I don't see anything too wrong with the original post except for the word nice. Replace every instance of the word "nice" with "insecure doormat" and retitle it, "The infamous Insecure Doormat rant" and you have yourself a moderately legitimate post and opinion.

I'm guessing that the original author felt that by using the word "nice", instead of the words "insecure doormat", he could create a much more interesting, controversial, and heated post. By the looks of this thread he was right. What's the word for that again? Oh yeah.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

For those of you who read this post and decided that hrmm, maybe it's not good to be nice anymore, I think I'll be a d*ck instead... To quote Douglas Adams, "So long and thanks for all the [extra] fish." Get it? Plenty of fish? Oh never mind, it was a bad joke and you're probably too stupid to understand anyway.
 Bigger Guy
Joined: 10/3/2005
Msg: 64
view profile
History
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 8/24/2006 7:13:47 PM
There are "Nice Guys: who have enough intestinal fortitude to be themselves / be comfortable around the ladies / be understanding and a good listener without giving up their right to opinions and views / be independant yet be part of a couple too / be comfortable with themselves.
There are "Nice Guys" who are, as the article stated, insecure / overbearing / door mats / or will settle for anything rather than be alone.
The latter are not realy nice guys ...... they are desperate ....... and everything they do is focused on getting a girl/mate/partner rather than finding something interesting and compatable / finding a person they could appreciate and be appreciated by --- giving respect and getting it freely in return / finding an equal /.
This type may consider themselves nice guys - but there is a vast difference.
I am a nice guy, but I would never be a door mat or date someone I didn't at least expect to rrespect or treat someone to my life without some expectation of equality. That is what a partner/mate/whatever has to have .. and it covers both genders and all lifestyles.
The labels are self affixed (Nice Guy / Nice Girl) but the scrutiny is up to us to be certain.
 thegreatrockyhill
Joined: 12/26/2005
Msg: 65
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 8/24/2006 7:22:04 PM

In Iwarriors statement, and to all those who give him a : you are completing your own self-fulfilling prophecy by believing your own lies. This is not meant to be an antagonistic post, so hear me out objectively before your rebuttal is posted. Let me explain how you are lying to yourself to justify your own behaviour, and how lying to yourself is common "nice guy/doormat" behaviour, which makes this subject so much more difficult, because the ones it is meant to help are the same ones that can't understand the words because of their own emotional walls connected to being a "nice guy/doormat".

The following is not intended for people who consider themselves nice guys, but possess all or most of the "normal guy/real man" traits. Sit back and think about which one you are. If you are a nice guy that generally is not afraid of people (male or female), or not afraid of being in a big group of people, not afraid to speak in public with all attention on you and things of this nature than you are probably a well rounded, non-doormat nice guy, and this post is not aimed at you. Now, if you occasionally think that people are making fun of you behind your back, and that worries you, or the idea of formal speaking in front of a large group of people scares you, or you don't have as much success with women as most men do, then you may benefit from this post.


Ok, first of all, who's lying to oneself here? I know what I am.

Secondly, the vast majority of people are fearful of speaking in public. It's a common, normal fear. It does not make someone inferior to someone else. Not being afraid of public speakign doesn't make someone desireable.

Most people at some point feel "less than" for whatever reason. That is normal.

I am not the****of-the-walk, and have no desire to be that way. If women don't find that attractive, then whatever. I don't need them. I was taught to be humble, not a hotshot flash in the pan.


"Iwarrior: I read your profile and I hope it's okay that I share parts of it with the audience of this thread to help me underline the ideas I'm trying to convey. First off, your profile is very well written grammatically, congratulations, but I see the "nice guy" shining through in your words. Your profile will be viewed by women as one belonging to a man that is overly apologetic, unsure, approval seeking and "wussy". No woman wants that. These are just my opinions, and I'm only trying to help, but maybe I'm way off base anyway. Either way, let me explain why I believe this to be true:

Your headliner: Hey, hey hey, don't just walk on by.

While this is different and clever, here is what I think the confident, no time wasting, "desirable" girl will see: Hey! Please give me a chance before you ignore me like the rest."


Yeah, you're way off base.

I honestly do not see how anything in my post lead you to believe that women find me "wussy". Unless it's because I don't go on and on about how great I am.

Women generally don't make the first move anyway, and I've had a lot of women message me first.

Meanwhile you say in your listing that you put the "G" in "geek". Who's self-effacing here?

And your main pic is of your car. What message does that send?

And what is a "desirable" girl anyway? Some blonde bimbo?


It kinda smells like you've been "walked by" too many times before, you know? So, "desirable" women see this and will take the hint from the previous girls that have "walked by", because "desirable" women don't want to waste your time, or theirs by picking up the baggage of, an under-confident due to over rejected/self-esteem issued, man.


Do you REALLY think people read my headline and have all of those things running through their minds? Please.

I said what I said because I wanted to be different, funny, and get people's attention w/o being an obnoxious, fatuous jackass.



Yes, from a male point of view it is an unfair game that women play, but it is instinctual for them to make such snap decisions. Here's why. Imagine if you were a "desirable" woman. That means you get hit on 10 or more times per day by every kind of guy imaginable, from the aggressive to the rich to the "nice". She has to filter through these personalities quickly to find the ones she is interested in, and if you're not what she is interested in, you'll know it quickly. This is the reason some of you might consider the really hot girls to be "bit*hes". The truth is, she knows exactly what she wants, and won't bother wasting precious time with anything less, and she has every right to do this, since she can just about get any guy she wants."


You're thinking way too much about this.

I don't want Paris Hilton, ok? How many women get hit on 10 times a day anyway? Please.


Your final statement was also something that seemed kind of like you were begging for approval. It was two phrases that read something like: If you will go out with me, you might be known as the girlfriend of a rockstar someday. If I've captured your imagination, drop me a line.


I was being funny.


The first sentence is humourous, but the way you worded it sounded more like a bribe done by someone that's running out of game. How about: If I choose to go out with you, you might get to be a rockstars girlfriend someday. You see? Second sentence also sounds like your asking for her to like you, and not the other way around as it should be. Maybe: If you think you can keep up to me and have your imagination captured, then why don't you drop me a line.


I think that's stupid.



Guys that are succesful with women misrepresent themselves less often than a "nice guy/doormat".


What is "successful with women" mean? All I want is one girl. That's it. I don't want to date a million women.

And yes they do misrepresent themselves. Their "confidence" is a mask.


Being successful with desirable women does not in any way mean that you are being caniving, or that you are operating smoothly with a hidden agenda.


Again, what is a desirable woman? And yeah, guys that get lots of dates and screw around are usually liars. They don't want a real relationship. They just want as many notches on their belt as they can get. You talk about it as if it were a game. I do not want to play a game.


In fact, it's quite the opposite. Being successful with those types of women usually requires the honesty of a confident man.


No. It usually requires being a liar and having a lot of money. If of course I'm thinking of the kind of women you [probably want.

I want women to like me because they think I'm a good person and because they find me attractive, interesting, funny, and smart. I don't want a woman to be attracted to me because I think I am the king of the mountain.


It requires being a sexual power that understands that he is trying to convey attraction to a woman through attitude and body language, and has no fear of doing so.


Ok, what men's rag did you crib that from?


That does not mean that this man simply wants to get in her pants, but only that he is interested in her as much as one can be on a first meeting with a women.


Nah, he wants to get in her pants.

Of course, upon first meeting a woman, I'm not going to totally fawn over her. I can't fall in love with a woman I barely know.


He is interested in beggining the courting process, and if things work beyond that, perhaps more.


That's what I want too.


This is the early stages of the courtship process from EVERY man's perspective, but tactics vary greatly. The "nice guy/doormat" will shy away from conveying a sexual attraction in it's instinctive form, and instead will resort to things like: buying drinks/gifts, being a "good friend" when you hardly know her, and just tip-toeing around the issue of sexuality and dating.


So, in other words, be a pig and view her as just another conquest. And of course, she'll just submit to your machismo because she doesn't respect herself right?


DESIRABLE women view this type of behaviour as dishonest, and it is.


A woman I find desirable will not see me as dishonest by acting like a gentleman. I want to get to know a woman for a while before we start having sex. I don't want a f*ckbuddy.



Women that are desirable do not appreciate this type of behaviour because they understand the true motives behind them,


What are my true motives? *GASP* I know! I want a meaningful relationship! The horror!!!!!


yet you can't make a move since the thought of doing so paralyzes you with fear. So you see, this type of behaviour is the truly misrepresental one, masked by being a good deed or two with no valid reason, but always wanting more.


If I meet a girl I really like and care about, f*cking the hell out of her isn't the first thing on my mind. I'm not afraid of anything. It's not as if I really want to nail her but am afraid to make a move. Even if I do, I'm not going to act like a sleazeball or a creep.





The kind of male that has this attitude is not usually one that is successful with women.


And you are?


Women aren't stupid you know,


You seem to think they are.


they can see right through that chovenistic, brutish, rudeness almost immediately. You are talking about the type of guy that actively seeks out fights so he can beat up on others cause he's bigger or stronger,


Not necessarily.


and not the type that's just defending his rights or pride in a fight.


I've done that many times. Again, you're equating being a decent person with being a wimp.


You are talking about a wife abuser. You are talking about the type of guy that would violate a woman's privacy by wooing her by getting her drunk, and then secretly broadcasting his conquest of her in the bedroom over the internet with a hidden camera.


Not only men like that.


I assure you that most men that are like this are not successful with women the way they truly want to be.


Oh, I think they are.


The problem is that you have associated men that are honestly successful with women as being of this type as well, which is a stereotype you have to stop believing.


They get lots of ass. You have to have a lack of respect for women to be that way.



No, no one is suggesting that you change your personality, but trying different methods to attract the women you want does not mean you are changing yourself. This thinking is like refusing to take a defensive driving course on the basis that you don't want to change who you are, despite all the accidents you get into.


I don't really care anymore. I just want one girl. That's all. I don't want to play a game. This is not a sport. Love should happen naturally, w/o having to be prowling around.




That's true, but not before she is attracted to you.


But how do you know if she is or not? If you've known her for a while, and it's gone unrequited, then hell yes you should tell her.


A first date set of flowers depends on how well you know her. If you don't know her that well, than the flowers are to bribe her to have feelings of attraction toward you, which IS sneaky and underhanded.


I can agree with that.


If you sense that the woman you are trying to woo is not attracted to you, and you try to pull this stuff off, that IS wrong and rude. It's wrong because it is a blackmail tactic. It's like saying, "I really love/like you and I think you should go out with me" before she is attracted to you. When you do this, it is intended as a come on with a tiny bit of guilt attached because they don't feel the same way you do about them. Doing this before you have established the attraction is most certainly wrong, and a typical "nice guy/doormat" type of behaviour.


I'll agree with that.




Saying that you are righteous for behaving this way is your lie to yourself, but it's only because society has taught you to act this way.


I never said I was righteous. I am just being true to myself. I'm not a hot-shot. I don't want to be.



I won't go into how society does this, but I could prove it with another long winded essay or two. For now, you'll just have to believe me.


I'm having trouble believing you.


One truth that must be admitted, on behalf of all men is this. If we see a woman and find her attractive, we immediately think lusty thoughts. This is true for ALL male personalities, be it "nice guys", "real men", "bad boys" etc.


Eh, not necessarily. I used to lust after women, but they were usually ones I barely knew and didn't care much about. I grew out of that. Usually, I don't really become attracted to a girl unless I think she's interested in me, sending me some sort of signal or whatever.

I can see a pretty girl and not imagine getting her out of her clothes. In fact, I don't do that anymore. And of course it depends on how she's dressed and carries herself. I never leer at women. If I see a "hot" girl, I'll glance at her, and that's about it. I'm not interested in sleeping around anyway. I just want a relationship.



But, the "nice guy/doormat" personality views himself as being above his own biology by doing the things that "nice guy/doormats" do.


Being mature and having self-control doesn't mean that one is a doormat. You're justifying boorish behavior.

I don't want to screw every pretty girl I see. I really don't. We as a culture oversexualize women. No woman I've known wants to be lusted by every man that she passes when walking down the street.

It's not that I don't get horny. I do. A lot. But I take care of it, and forget about it.



Sometimes the "nice guy/doormat" can be found listening to a woman complain about something and being reassuring even when she's wrong, or when he'd rather be anywhere else.


That's not me.


This is his classic behaviour, among others. Do not justify this type of behaviour to yourself as being the right thing to do, because when you act this way, your motivation is to gain her approval and hopefully become romantically involved, and your motivation is not to genuinely help her.


So don't listen to women. Don't. Part of our society's problem is that we don't listen. If I really like a girl, I want her to confide in me. I want to confide in her. I want to help her if I can. I really don't see what is so wrong with that. You guys all have inverted all positive behaviors because you don't think it will get you laid, because in your world, a man is measured by how much sex he gets (as well as how much money you earn).



What do you think what you call an "a$$hole" would do in the same situation? He'd point out where he believes that she acted inappropriately, and tell her that she should make amends. That does genuinely help her, and he won't have to listen to her complaints anymore either. This is what women mean when they say that they want "honesty".


I would do that with a woman I cared about. It all depends. I mean, if I'm on a first date with a girl, and she's going on and on about something she was clearly wrong about, I probably wouldn;t want to see her again.


Summary: You either still feel you are right, and will continue acting this way. Or, you will realize that there must be a reason that "a$$holes" are getting all the women you want,


I don't want a woman who wants to be with an a$$hole.


and then you will realize that maybe the common denominator with your lack of luck for women actually is you,


I think it's a combination of things. I don't think there is anything seriously wrong with me. I think I'm a good person. I think I'm attractive. I think I am worthwhile. If other people don't see that then that's their problem not mine.

Your worldview (well, it's probably someone else's actually, some guy who writes for Maxim or something) assumes that women are weaker than men and want to be chased down like prey and dominated.


and maybe there is a way to work on it instead of blaming the rest of society for your entire life.


Oh our society is seriously screwed up. If you can't see that, then you are the one with your head in the sand. Really. And it's people who think like that that prevent our society from getting better.

I mean, capitalism is a-okay. The people on welfare are just lazy and stupid.


Your choice. I made my choice to come to the "dark side" a few years ago, and even though I'm not the super-stud I'd like to be, it's a road well worth travelling.


You don't seem to be someone I want to emulate.


Good luck.



Uh yeah Skippy. You too.
 thegreatrockyhill
Joined: 12/26/2005
Msg: 66
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 8/24/2006 8:55:39 PM
One other thing. Sociopaths usually believe that decent normal people are faking and deep down want to be sociopathic.
 Etownboy79
Joined: 8/3/2006
Msg: 67
view profile
History
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 8/24/2006 9:02:59 PM
For Fireknight:

I think I see what you're saying, and for the most part I agree with you, but there is one fundamental difference in the foundations of our arguments that is becoming more and more apparent to me. Before I get into that, tell me if the following assumption is consistent with your text:

Person A. Is generally someone who is stereotyped as a "nice guy". Not necessarily a "doormat" from what you've explained, but perhaps he shares some of that labels' traits. Person A does not believe he needs to change his methods of attracting a woman for fear of it being an immoral type of behaviour. He is sticking to that belief despite him not having the success with women he'd like to have and feels he deserves. He is also frustrated because he views himself as a more compassionate, understanding and deserving person for the affection of the woman he desires, but all the Person B's of the world just keeping getting the upper hand by having the relationships with women that the Person A's want. About right?

Person B. Is generally someone who is stereotyped as "alpha male/real man". Not necessarily a "jerk/chovenist" from what you've explained, but perhaps he shares some of that labels' traits. Person B approaches women with a definite intent, he is sexually interested in those women and uses the tactics most women admire in hopes of elevating the relationship between the two to something beyond acquaintances/friends. Person B isn't against the idea of a commited relationship with the woman he is attempting to attract, but she will have to work hard to keep his interest long enough for that to happen. For now, Person B is satisfied with exploring the physical aspect of their relationship, with no definite attempt at furthering that relationship as he has not been persuaded yet to think that a relationship between the two would work. Am I close?

Person C. Is generally what society (all the person A's and B's) in this world consider to be an attractive woman. Person C tends to be attracted to the Person B's in the world, but befriends Person A's.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


You are trying to convey to me that most of the Person C's in this world really don't know what they're doing. You think that B's lie, cheat and canive their way into the hearts of C's. Meanwhile A's see themselves as being above the acts of B's, since any girl that would fall for a B is certainly under some intoxicated influence. So the A's refuse to use such under-handed tactics, and sit back blaming their lack of success on all the B's and C's of the world.

The B's never tell the whole truth to women.
The B's always use every advantage they can to get what they want.
The B's have no feelings either way about the woman they are with as long as B's demands are met.
The B's care more about womanizing than being loved.

Are these the traits you see when you think of someone who is successful with women? If I am correct, let me know and I'll explain the rest of the story.
 MarkCK
Joined: 9/24/2005
Msg: 68
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 8/24/2006 9:03:26 PM
you go, ho!

what about nice women?

nice guys can actually be good, caring guys, and not stupid about it, not all guys bitch about their ex's, or women they couldn't get, only lowlifes do that

anyway its stupid to judge a person on a their character like that its hardly reflecting, people are either good or bad, and spend their time doing positive, or negative!!! things

 tiredofheadgames
Joined: 8/6/2006
Msg: 69
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 8/24/2006 9:39:58 PM
I warrior....YOU ROCK!!!!
 DRathbun
Joined: 5/23/2006
Msg: 70
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 8/24/2006 9:44:51 PM
Ok, I have a few questions. I typically talk about my Ex. You all knwo I do. Anyway, my friends believe its because Im not over her. Well, a small part of me still yearns for her. But the pain was almost to excruciating, being torn from her, that I really dont know if I could go back. That, and she didnt remain loyal to me. {Sorry, cheaters are the lowest scum of all.} And I could not even get the girl I fell in love with back anyway. She has changed in the years we have been apart, and the girl I fell in love with is nothing more than a sweet dream in my minds eye. I have always been a "loner" in ways. I dont have many friends, but of the ones I do have, they are very very close to me. And amongst other men, I tend to keep quiet, and watch people go about their lives. I imagine this is one reason I do not get women to notice me. Im not ripping my****out, just to show that its longer { } and tend to get overlooked. Sorry, I only fight for things worth fighting for. Love, and protection. And throughout my life, these have been the only things I have ever thrown myself on the line for. Anyway, I speak about my Ex typically, because I have no other real basis for speaking of relationships. For example, a girl at my job and I tend to speak about love and such. I use my ex usually, and she, as my friends, say I am not over her. Which is false. Does this make me insecure? I will admit I worry a bit about my weight. But then again, I also love my size. Honestly! I read a post a while back, and it spoke about what attributes turned women on. And practically all of them have 3 things in common:

1.Tall
2.Broad Shouldered
3.Blue Eyes

Well hello ladies! Plus, strength is such a great and enjoyable high at times. When Im lugging these huge peices of whatever around, I feel such a high. Its like, wow, you are just...impressive. Now, does this mean I am truly insecure? Or am I just discomplacent about certain parts of my body?

And if I am insecure, is there counseling for it? Heh, asking this entire topic is probably insecure. Ok, everyone just forget you read it.
{By the way, Ladyzoot.....KICKASS NAME!!! }
 DRathbun
Joined: 5/23/2006
Msg: 71
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 8/24/2006 10:32:13 PM
One more question. Someone said that the Nice Guy will not reveal his sexual interest in a woman right off, which will typically lead her to wanting to be just friends. Its also says that in a book I have been reading. That women typically decide if you are Relationship/Friend material within the first 2 minutes of meeting you. Now, how do you exude your sexual interst in them? I think I can flirt, but I typically keep it PG...any advice?
 Etownboy79
Joined: 8/3/2006
Msg: 72
view profile
History
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 8/25/2006 12:50:11 AM
I warrior:

Okay, I see where you're coming from Iwarrior. I think we have a couple of differences of opinion though, let me attempt to clarify if you'll allow me the priveledge. I made a couple of statements in my previous post that you took as something I didn't intend them to sound like, and it's probably because my written english skills could use some improvement. Anyway...


Secondly, the vast majority of people are fearful of speaking in public. It's a common, normal fear. It does not make someone inferior to someone else. Not being afraid of public speakign doesn't make someone desireable.


No, I don't think the MAJORITY of people are afraid of public speaking, even though it's a completely rational fear. I certainly don't think that having this fear makes you any less of a human being. Not being afraid of public speaking isn't the only reason someone could be found "desirable", but I'm sure it's a quality that most women would find attractive in a man. I'm also sure that EVERYONE who does have a fear of public speaking, wishes they did not have that fear. So working on something like that is healthier for the ego, and if you're ego is healthy (and not co*ky, because that is a false ego) you will attract people that you desire more easily.


Most people at some point feel "less than" for whatever reason. That is normal.

Agreed, that is normal. It's also normal to work on those areas within yourself. What's not normal is not wanting or trying to work on those areas where you feel "less than".


I am not the****of-the-walk, and have no desire to be that way. If women don't find that attractive, then whatever. I don't need them.


Women don't think to themselves..."Wow, look at how co*ky he is, that sure is hot!" So you're right and you should not have any desire to be that way. However, what you misunderstand as co*ky behaviour is USUALLY a healthy confidence. The people that exude this healthy confidence may go overboard at times, but noones perfect. These shortcomings are what you believe to be a successful man's everyday behaviour, which isn't true.


I was taught to be humble, not a hotshot flash in the pan.


Maybe you need to forget what society has taught you like every man who is successful with women has. I don't think that if this type of behaviour was offering the results you desire, you would not have complained about your lack of luck with women in the first place. And you wouldn't have complained that society makes it hard for you "nice guys" to get relationships with the girls you really want.


Yeah, you're way off base.

I honestly do not see how anything in my post lead you to believe that women find me "wussy". Unless it's because I don't go on and on about how great I am.

Women generally don't make the first move anyway, and I've had a lot of women message me first.


No, I don't go on about how great I am either, at least I hope I don't. I do believe that if you worded that headliner differently though, it could sound less "try hard". I can't really put my finger on the right definition here, I'll try a couple more: needy, desperate, attention whorish? I'm sorry I can't think of a better word. I can just visualize a guy seeing a girl he finds attractive saying "your headliner" in passing, with his hand in the air, and I think she might just walk right on by only because that's exactly what you've asked her not to do. Of course, I guess it would depend on how you say it.



Women generally don't make the first move anyway, and I've had a lot of women message me first


They are obviously not the kind of girls you want, or else you wouldn't still be here, would you?



Meanwhile you say in your listing that you put the "G" in "geek". Who's self-effacing here?

And your main pic is of your car. What message does that send?


I think you might be right here, and I've been trying to come up with some better humour for my profile. I can be self-effacing when it's for the purpose of humour, and not for the purpose of getting pity. As for the car, I agree, but having that car there is what explains my opening paragraph, where I question my readers how they think I got it. Don't forget, I mention clearly that I didn't pay for the car in that opening statement, so the car is clearly not meant as a "show of bling" to attract hoochies.


And what is a "desirable" girl anyway? Some blonde bimbo?


Well, I suppose a desirable girl in the context I was using it in is a girl who would consistently rate as at least an 8 by most men on the scale of 10. This is based on looks alone, I admit that, but when you first see a girl you might be interested in, this is all you have to go on until you engage converstaion. If she turns out to be a "bimbo", then yes, she is the opposite of desirable, and moving on is surely the first course of action to be taken.


Do you REALLY think people read my headline and have all of those things running through their minds? Please.

I said what I said because I wanted to be different, funny, and get people's attention w/o being an obnoxious, fatuous jackass


Yes, people, especially women, make assumptions about you very quickly, and your headline is what will give them a first impression. Do I think that even if a woman reading your headline feels the same way I do about it that she is immediately going to skip you? Not necessarily, but she may already have a pre-judgement about you that you may not be able to overcome by the end of your profile, which means, no contact.

Being funny is possible without being obnoxious or fatuous, and also without being self-effacing, as you put it.


You're thinking way too much about this.

I don't want Paris Hilton, ok? How many women get hit on 10 times a day anyway? Please.


Yes, I have thought alot about this subject. Paris Hilton is a 3 dressed up as a 9, in the words of the great "Trooper". Physically she is attractive but no, I don't want a girl like that either. However, give her the attitude and morality of someone sweet, caring and intelligent, and then you will have an EXTREMELY good catch right there. How many 8 and ups get hit on at least ten times a day? All of them. Ask one if you don't believe me, the more physically attractive she is, the more she gets hit on. Unless she closes herself off and puts up unbreakable sheilds with her posture and body language, which is what some women do.


What does "successful with women" mean? All I want is one girl. That's it. I don't want to date a million women.


Sucessful with women=someone who isn't comlaining about his lack of success with women.
All you want is one girl, but to find that one girl you may need to date 10 or more. If you don't have the skills to approach those ten and have them pursue a relationship with you, then you'll never meet that one.


And yes they do misrepresent themselves. Their "confidence" is a mask.


No, they represent themselves the best way they can by doing what they know works best, just like everyone else is. The truly attractive confidence can not be faked, the fake confidence can only be faked for a very short amount of time. Women know almost immediately if you're faking, cause they ARE ALWAYS better at reading body language and people then men are. This is a fact I can prove to you some other time.


And yeah, guys that get lots of dates and screw around are usually liars. They don't want a real relationship. They just want as many notches on their belt as they can get.


For someone who is upset because his personality type is being over-generalized, you sure have a way of fighting fire with fire. What you are saying is NOT ALWAYS the case, in fact, very rarely is what you say actually happening. Again, confirm this with other girls if you don't believe me. Guys who get lots of dates have worked hard on themselves to be as attractive to the opposite sex as possible. The reason they do this is to give themselves as many options and opportunities as possible, and there is noting immoral about that. As far as the guys who "screw around", well, if you mean that they are cheating on their significant others, than yes, I agree that they are acting like total scum.


No. It usually requires being a liar and having a lot of money.


I hope you don't honestly think that it's only liars with big wallets that are successful with women. I'm sure most girls would disagree.


I want women to like me because they think I'm a good person and because they find me attractive, interesting, funny, and smart.


Me too, but if you don't equip yourself with the skills to show that girl that you are all the things you say you are, then you've lost completely.


Nah, he wants to get in her pants.


Well, there is nothing wrong with visualizing a great "roll in the hay" with someone. You do it all the time. However, if this girl turns out to have second class behaviour, it's a real turn off for MOST men, and the last thing they want to do is bring her home. The ones that will accept this type of behaviour are either desperate and needy, or the ones you talk about that are egomaniacal, self centered morons.


So, in other words, be a pig and view her as just another conquest. And of course, she'll just submit to your machismo because she doesn't respect herself right?


When you are able to communicate to a woman that you are interested in her, it does not make you a pig. This is what the woman wants, isn't it? Do you think women want pigs? Every self-respecting girl finds it attractive when a man has enough confidence to tell her exactly how he feels without fearing the consequences of possible rejection. Do not lie to yourself anymore that you are doing the chivalrous and noble thing by tip-toeing around the issues of attraction and sexuality, because women don't want you to do it, and it's getting you nowhere. The fact is, most guys that fit the "nice guy/doormat" category justify their fear of approaching a woman and telling her how he feels about her by claiming that, not "making your move", is the righteous and moral thing to do, and that just isn't the case.


A woman I find desirable will not see me as dishonest by acting like a gentleman. I want to get to know a woman for a while before we start having sex.


She will probably misinterpret you not wanting to have sex as you either A) Not being attracted to her. B) Afraid of rejection C)Denying your own biology with superficial ideas.
However, if you are very vocal about wanting to obstain from the start of the relationship, then she will probably not see any of those things I just mentioned, and that would be fine. The problem is, most "nice guy/doormats" are too timid around the subject of sex, and will never be able to tell her why he is acting the way he is. This leaves the woman confused and annoyed, which is part of the reason these types of guys don't have any success.


What are my true motives? *GASP* I know! I want a meaningful relationship! The horror!!!!!


YES, exactly, if you're true motives are to have a relationship with the girl and you can only tell her you want that relationship with her by buying flowers/being too good of a listener and all the rest of that nice guy stuff, and you can't tell her with words, then you've lost your chance. At least I hope you've lost you're chance, because the only kind of girl you'll be picking up with that kind of behaviour is one that will break your heart after she's taken everything you've got.



They get lots of ass. You have to have a lack of respect for women to be that way.


Having a good sex life does in no way reflect your amount of respect for women. If you would stop treating women as if they don't know what they're doing, you might realize what I'm telling you. You are acting as if they are little children that need guidance because they always seem to go for what's "bad for them". As if YOU know what's right for them and they don't. It appears that you sir, are the one that has the lack of respect, since you put them on this pedestal of ignorance, at least from a womans perspective that is.


I don't really care anymore. I just want one girl. That's all. I don't want to play a game. This is not a sport. Love should happen naturally, w/o having to be prowling around.


You sound like someone who is giving up on themselves. Don't. You just have to realize that it IS a game, and you have to want to play it. You see, women want you to chase them a little bit, if you don't, the woman thinks that you are not interested enough in them to make your move, and no woman wants a guy who doesn't want them back, right? If you do play their little game with them for a little bit, then and only then can the love happen "naturally" like you want it to. Sorry, but that's just the way it is.


Eh, not necessarily. I used to lust after women, but they were usually ones I barely knew and didn't care much about. I grew out of that. Usually, I don't really become attracted to a girl unless I think she's interested in me, sending me some sort of signal or whatever.

I can see a pretty girl and not imagine getting her out of her clothes. In fact, I don't do that anymore. And of course it depends on how she's dressed and carries herself. I never leer at women. If I see a "hot" girl, I'll glance at her, and that's about it. I'm not interested in sleeping around anyway. I just want a relationship.


This is where I said that ALL men lust for women the instant they meet them. I made a mistake. I should have rephrased that. It should read: ALL men know instantly whether or not he is physically attracted to the woman he's just met. I don't mean that all men immediately concoct an elaborate fantasy of sexual behaviour in their heads about the woman they just met, don't misunderstand me here. To deny this is lying to yourself, because it's just biology that determines this, it's not a reflection of you or you're personality.


It's not that I don't get horny. I do. A lot. But I take care of it, and forget about it.

Just like every other guy, we "take care of it" yes, I understand. The problem is that some "nice guy/doormats" think that having these urges is somehow immoral, and that feelings of lust equate to being disrespectful to women.


If I really like a girl, I want her to confide in me. I want to confide in her. I want to help her if I can. I really don't see what is so wrong with that.


Their is nothing wrong with that once you are well into a relationship. If you are not, then it is an underhanded tactic used by the "nice guy/doormats" to get the girl, and that IS wrong.


I think it's a combination of things. I don't think there is anything seriously wrong with me. I think I'm a good person. I think I'm attractive. I think I am worthwhile. If other people don't see that then that's their problem not mine.


Yes, you are a good person. I know you're a hell of alot more physically attractive than I am, did you see my ugly mug when you looked at my profile? Lol, j/k. And no, there probably isn't anything really wrong with you. But, if other people don't see the real you, that in fact IS your problem, and not theirs. You just have to give the girls that opportunity to see who you are, without falling for the B.S. conditioning that society has given you by telling you this type of behaviour is somehow immoral.


Your worldview (well, it's probably someone else's actually, some guy who writes for Maxim or something) assumes that women are weaker than men and want to be chased down like prey and dominated.


Your worldview appears to think that women aren't able to control their impulses, and that they keep going for the wrong types of guys. Yes, it happens sometimes, but not as often as you imply. They want to be let known that they are being pursued, yes. And, yes, many books and speakers on this subject have taught me what I know, not Maxim though.


Oh our society is seriously screwed up. If you can't see that, then you are the one with your head in the sand. Really. And it's people who think like that that prevent our society from getting better.


Again with the "I'm better than you" incinuations. You have to realize that you are the one who chooses to believe that everything said here is the rest of society's fault. So the small minority of guys that think like you can keep thinking that way, and never really looking within to improve themsleves and their love lives. Well, you can sit on your throne of virtue while I go and meet some potential lovers. Can't you admit that maybe it's society who made you believe these lies you are telling yourself in the first place? The facts are, if you're not happy with the way things have been working out for you, maybe a different method should be considered? This is alot easier than saying society should change to conform to your beliefs, isn't it?

Only tryin to help, Cheers.

Adam
 Etownboy79
Joined: 8/3/2006
Msg: 73
view profile
History
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 8/25/2006 1:02:25 AM
Kain Malice:

One more question. Someone said that the Nice Guy will not reveal his sexual interest in a woman right off, which will typically lead her to wanting to be just friends. Its also says that in a book I have been reading. That women typically decide if you are Relationship/Friend material within the first 2 minutes of meeting you. Now, how do you exude your sexual interst in them? I think I can flirt, but I typically keep it PG...any advice?


Ya, that's too true. What book are you reading? Sounds like a David D. book.

I think the best way to exude a sexual interest is to work on yourself. Flirting is okay, but I think it must be done in a way that's meant for your own fun, and not for the purposes of "getting the girl". PG is fine, in fact if you are looking for a girl who has some class and is a little bit conservative, than that is exactly what you should do. Just keep in mind to make it fun for yourself, and the girl will have fun too. If you are trying to do this for her benefit, it will feel awkward and won't produce good results.

There are so many ways to subtely tell a girl you are interested in her, but that's not the main way to have her be ATTRACTED to you. I would say just be as hard to get, fun loving, enjoyable, good conversationalist, non-lingering, non-approval seeking and uninhibited as you can be. The rest will take care of itself if she becomes attracted to you. If she doesn't, get over it and move on to the next lucky candidate for your company. If she does show attraction for you, she will probably make it REAL easy for you to tell her that you like her and want to pursue more. If you'e not sure, ask bluntly, and she'll tell ya straight up.

Good luck

Adam
 fightnot
Joined: 7/22/2006
Msg: 74
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 8/25/2006 1:36:42 AM
Temper selflove with selflessness and the cream will always rise to the top.
 abstinent lady
Joined: 8/15/2006
Msg: 75
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 8/25/2006 7:31:08 AM
I was very disturbed reading tha article you chose you reprint, so may choices or a clingy guy who pretends to be nice or an egotistical guy who loves no one but him self ....I'll take tha guy who was raised right and wants to treat me well cause it would kill him to do otherwise..... Still Disturbed
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