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 norwegianguy123
Joined: 10/27/2014
Msg: 832
The infamous NICE GUY rantPage 35 of 38    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38)

Why do you have to be confident when there's a ton of women who DON'T see a lack of confidence as a turnoff?

A ton? I understand your first sentence in the sense of "exception". But a ton? No. You can make the case that there's "tons" where you don't have to put out an Explicit Vibe out there that you Are Confident. Like almost all attributes, it's positive, neutral, and negative. Sure, there's girls out there who aren't going to be much Turned On by a guy in the explicit/positive direction in Confidence... but a Vast Majority of girls who are decent catches are going to be Turned Off to at least some degree by guys in the Negative direction on that.

You're talking about maximizing their chances, but WITH WHO?????? The type of girl YOU are into, or the type of girl THEY are into? Humanity isn't that simple.

It's not a game of chess, it's a game of checkers. It's the basics. Yes, technically a guy who's suicidal and depressed can still get a girl. But No, there's not a ton of them out there who are 100% fine with that (hence it having No Bearing on his chances of garnering her interest). Or even many at all. If he hangs out at Emo bars? Yeah, he'll have a better chance -- he'll find some fellow depressed gals there. If he goes to upscale bars/clubs with hot chicks who dress up -- his chances are pretty much nill with any girls who aren't way below his league. Overall, is his chances going to be even Comparable to if he wasn't depressed/suicidal -- and instead had self-confidence, charm, etc? No. Not even comparable. So if/when said guy is on a forum or talking to his buddies complaining about getting a girl -- he can't use the Excuse that that shouldn't affect girls, and that there's tons of girls who are OK with it -- and "I don't need to change myself! I'm true about myself!"

When we zoom out on Basic concepts that go across sub-cultural lines -- yes, self-confidence -- having a sufficient amount, is key. Not merely in the realm of gals liking guys with self-confidence, just like the overwhelming concept that non-tall-gals strongly prefer guys at least as tall as they are -- but his self-confidence is going to bleed in other areas. Not just with women, but in life in general -- just general overall success in life. That's what the book "The Pickup Artist" was about. A biography of the author who was Supposed to compile tips & tricks to pick up women -- but instead him Learning about the concept of Human Interaction, which yes, the focal point beginning with garnering girls' interest, in knowing what they like & don't like (in reality vs what they believe) -- and extending out how when he'd interview celebrities, he was garnering more Respect -- from people in general. Self-confidence does this.

Your argument is that everything's not uniform -- no one size fits all and is the only size that'll fit every gal -- thus, it's essentially All Random, and it doesn't matter. NO, it's not. Not at all.

A similar argument's about Looks. Some odd folks believe Looks-taste is pretty much random -- because a 7 to one person could be a 5 to another. Or a 10 to one person could be a 3 to another. Thus, they say, looks are purely random. And to that statement I laugh and lose respect for such folk. No, it's not random. There's seemingly random Elements to it, Yes. But it has an objective basis. If looks-taste was really just Random -- then you'd see intelligent super models with really short ugly guys just as often with hot studs. And more importantly, super models would look just the same as every day people, and "ugly" guys would be random, too. It's not that way. At All. Not even Close.

So when it comes to human-interaction, it's not the same either. And one part of human-interaction is guy-girl attraction/detraction. There are basic human elements which increase or decrease attraction / comfort-zone / etc. Just as there's basic human elements which garner respect on the platonic scale. Sure, there's variances! But it's not random, where every action one does is going to garner respect for 33% of people, garner disrespect for 33% of people, and not affect respect for 33% of people, evenly distributed because of Randomness.
 OtisGreening
Joined: 12/8/2014
Msg: 833
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 1/31/2015 12:48:07 PM

Why do you have to be confident when there's a ton of women who DON'T see a lack of confidence as a turnoff?


I'd have to question the mindsets of those types of women. Often, predatory-types/abusers/people who like to take advantage, etc look for insecure people with little to no confidence to prey on. In that case, why care what THOSE types of people want? Any well-adjusted, sane, decent person isn't going to see a lack of confidence as a turn on.
 Coma_White
Joined: 9/15/2013
Msg: 834
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History
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 1/31/2015 1:45:18 PM

No, I'm saying that there are exceptions. Not every woman fits your mold of what a woman should be. Why do you have to be confident when there's a ton of women who DON'T see a lack of confidence as a turnoff? You're telling people how to attract a specific type of girl. There's more than one type. I'm saying be yourself and you'll find someone. There is nothing more positive than that. Saying that you have to "not make common mistakes" is actually more negative than what I'm saying.


No. I've never told anyone how to attract a specific type of girl. The "be yourself" idea isn't working for them. It's better to do what gets results. Being themselves doesn't work if that includes a lack of awareness. Avoiding common mistakes isn't negative at all. It's common sense because some people aren't aware of the mistakes they're making and that limits their opportunities.


Just because I don't agree with you, it doesn't make it negative. You're talking about maximizing their chances, but WITH WHO?????? The type of girl YOU are into, or the type of girl THEY are into? Humanity isn't that simple. Not every man is the same and not every woman is the same. That's not negative, that's reality. That's acknowledging that we're all unique. Why not embrace that when it comes to dating? Would you rather date someone you have to walk on eggshells to not make these mistakes, or date someone that you do what's natural and it's 100% effortless? Billions of people are enjoying the latter.


I'm not giving advice to people that have no problem dating. I was trying to give advice to someone that never had a date. It doesn't matter what type of girl. Humanity exists because we have natural instincts that help us survive and reproduce. It's easy to modify the basics and adapt to any situation once you know them.


Your advice works, but only on the type of girl that it works with. That's what you're just not grasping. I'm walking proof that you don't have to avoid these mistakes, because I make them and still have some success with girls. And why? Because not all of them are so worried about these few mistakes (which you constantly talk about but never point out).


No. It has nothing to do with one type of girl. It's universal. Knowing what to do and gets more results than being unaware.


Advice is good, tunnel vision isn't. For the millionth time, there's girls who are actually attracted to being timid, or shy, or insecure. There's women who love talking about exes and old relationships. There's women who love talking about video games and movies. But instead of being yourself and letting chance take over, you're focusing on "this is how you get a girl like mine." I'm not denying that following your advice will bring success, but I don't see success as having a girl just to have a girl. So to me, tailoring my lifestyle around what some random girl will be more attracted to isn't success. I'd rather be single a little longer and find someone who actually fits with who I am, not what I am. And this is what everyone should be doing. Be yourself, act naturally. Yeah, it might be harder to initially meet someone, but once you do, it's going to be way easier to keep that relationship together.


I've never once given advice on how to get a girl like mine. I'm giving basic, universal advice that can fit any situation. I'm not suggesting to be someone you're not. Like I said earlier, if you're out talking to women, you should really only be focused on amplifying your own state. One quick example would be to always approach a group of people with more energy than they have. You can't walk up to a mixed group that's having fun and quietly say: "Hi.. my name is Steve, I like Star Wars." It might work if you did it in a kind of self mocking way, but you generally have to have more energy. I don't think women naturally feel attraction to the quality of being timid or shy. A lot of the time you see a woman that's dating a nice man but has a crush on another man that's more of a bad-boy type. It's more likely that being shy is a quality that allowed them to do things together because they're both shy. I would personally guess that the actual feelings of attraction for the shy man had something more to do with their social circle or another quality.


That's your mistake you keep putting in your advice. Not every woman is the same. What works for one doesn't necessarily work for another. True, there's more women who are similar to your advice than mine, but it doesn't mean that mine don't exist. There's enough of them out there that you don't have to jump through hoops. All you have to do is be patient and not fear rejection.


The problem is the lack of results. There's a problem if someone's never had a date. They obviously need to change what they're doing. It doesn't matter if women aren't all the same, that's actually a good thing. However, we all have instincts. We all feel hungry if we don't eat, and we all feel attraction. I believe they would dramatically increase their success by learning about what triggers attraction and what lowers your value. You were asking about basic mistakes. Here's an example. A guy is hanging out somewhere and he's wearing a necklace. A woman passes by and says: "Hey, cool necklace". A guy that's not sure what to do might just say "Thanks" and let her wander off. A man that's aware of what's actually happening won't drop the ball. He'll engage her since he realizes that's her way of saying "I'd like to talk to you." It's that kind of lack of awareness that's preventing people from getting dates.


You're telling them to change things about themselves, I'm telling them that there's girls out there that they don't have to change a single thing. They have friends, clearly themselves is good enough for people. Let a relationship happen, don't try to make it happen.


They're not happy with their results though. If someone else is getting phone numbers and dating girls steadily, and they haven't even kissed a girl, there's a problem. That's fine if they want to be themselves and wait around for something that may or not happen. I'm giving them advice because my impression is that they're here because they want to be proactive and get better results.
 WomanInProgress
Joined: 10/16/2005
Msg: 835
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 1/31/2015 1:48:42 PM

I don't want to sound callous, but I didn't put that up there for sympathy. More for validity. I'm not some sheltered kid that doesn't know. Obstacles exist in everyone's life. No life is without struggle. No person's opinion is less valuable because their struggle is different. With that said, and while it is only the first of many steps, one must choose to either be consumed or move on.

I'm not going to go into my childhood and early adulthood but I wasn't born into fantastic circumstances either. I learned to make lemons out of lemonade. I also learned how to compartmentalize and pick and choose what to worry about and what not to in order to stay grounded.

There are some who would say I'm cold, or insensitive or detached...and maybe at times I am, but I haven't lost my cookies yet over my experiences. Life throws crap at you no matter who you are and most of us don't get through life without it happening. Either let it knock you over or catch it and toss it back. It is absolutely a choice.
 rockin-trucker82
Joined: 1/4/2014
Msg: 836
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 2/1/2015 1:07:05 PM

A guy is hanging out somewhere and he's wearing a necklace. A woman passes by and says: "Hey, cool necklace". A guy that's not sure what to do might just say "Thanks" and let her wander off. A man that's aware of what's actually happening won't drop the ball. He'll engage her since he realizes that's her way of saying "I'd like to talk to you." It's that kind of lack of awareness that's preventing people from getting dates.


We agree on something!!!!!!!

If this is what you meant by mistakes, then this was a few pages that didn't need to happen. My fault. But this is where I was saying don't fear rejection and always take the shot. Don't rely on things like this happening. If you're interested, go for it. I wouldn't call not reading her mind when she comments on the necklace as the mistake, but not saying something regardless of if she said anything is the mistake. I know there's a few girls in here who disagree with being randomly approached, I've never experienced being a girl... But I try to stick with the idea that you never know if you don't try. That girl sitting there looking really mad can be mad that her friends ditched her and would love anyone at all to talk to (ofc be smartt and don't immediately start hitting on the girl). You're going to face way more rejection this way, but that's just because of numbers. You're taking more chances, so you're going to get rejected more times. I'd rather KNOW she doesn't want to talk to me than take a guess and then wonder if it was the right guess later.

What you're talking about isn't really a mistake in dating, it's just social competence. It's how you function. It's how you made whatever friends you have.

I'd still stick with the be infinity% yourself though. I mean if you're not confident, don't change it, own it. Being timid isn't the death-sentence the forums make it out to be. If you're convinced that you're probably going to get rejected, well, what do you have to lose now? You're already convinced of the outcome, now you'll probably be more relaxed because you're not going to be as focused on impressing her, you're just out to be out. You just have to learn to not fear rejection. The more you can just accept it, the easier the rest of dating becomes. The problem with most advice is that it pushes you to be what you're not. You need to be confident to get the girl... How many guys have accidentally ended up with someone as a result of just making an ass of themselves and having fun?

The fear of rejection is the most crippling thing in dating. If you can overcome that, you instantly become VERY noticeably better at dating. That's really all it comes down to. If you're interested in a girl, the worst possible outcome (except for a few cases on dating sites, see the "Ew & Yuk" thread) is that she's going to say no.
 WomanInProgress
Joined: 10/16/2005
Msg: 837
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 2/1/2015 1:45:15 PM

You were asking about basic mistakes. Here's an example. A guy is hanging out somewhere and he's wearing a necklace. A woman passes by and says: "Hey, cool necklace". A guy that's not sure what to do might just say "Thanks" and let her wander off. A man that's aware of what's actually happening won't drop the ball. He'll engage her since he realizes that's her way of saying "I'd like to talk to you." It's that kind of lack of awareness that's preventing people from getting dates.

So if I compliment a guy on something I find interesting in passing it's interpreted as (romantic) interest? OK, good to know.
 norwegianguy123
Joined: 10/27/2014
Msg: 838
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 2/1/2015 2:14:46 PM

So if I compliment a guy on something I find interesting in passing it's interpreted as (romantic) interest? OK, good to know.

If you're complimenting a guy in passing on something he's wearing, then reach out to engage him and talk, that being the opener -- Yes. Good to know, and knowing's half the battle. GI Joe.

I know there's a few girls in here who disagree with being randomly approached, I've never experienced being a girl... But I try to stick with the idea that you never know if you don't try.

Depending on the environment, and the league you're in vs them, it can be few or it can be many that don't like being randomly approached. But YES, you never know [about her] if you don't try. Too many guys are chicken. Many of them sit on the sidelines chuckling at guys sparking conversation and getting "shot down" -- which is why they don't want to do it.

What you're talking about isn't really a mistake in dating, it's just social competence. It's how you function.

Well, it's both, yeah. And it is how you function, whether it being generating conversation -- to how you garner interest in a gal. I think the conversation itself and how THAT flows is where all the disagreement comes in.

I'd still stick with the be infinity% yourself though. I mean if you're not confident, don't change it, own it.

I Highly disagree. I can see that advice of "own it" being better than wallowing in "Gawd, I have no confidence, I suck, I suck I suck," -- sure. But most guys who lack confidence aren't wallowing in that. In this situation we're talking about, them not really getting any girls' interest is the issue they tend to get upset about. If said guy CAN get girls' interest well enough for what he wants (dates with attractive women, relationships, hookups -- whatever) -- then sure -- he needs no advice no matter what his state of mind is, if things are working just fine for him. But if it is working out just fine -- guess what?! He Is Not going to suffer from low-confidence!

And also -- he's rarely if ever going to flag down a cute gal as part of his repertoire and follow up with generating conversation. If he has that going for him, he'll have confidence, in the realm of getting a girl's #, etc.

You just have to learn to not fear rejection. The more you can just accept it, the easier the rest of dating becomes.

I TOTALLY AGREE. But that IS CONFIDENCE.

The fear of rejection is the most crippling thing in dating. If you can overcome that, you instantly become VERY noticeably better at dating.

Exactly. And when rejection doesn't phase you, guess what? Assuming you're a generally decent person with no emotional problems, your game is going to be Above Average.

But going by your Rules of be yourself -- you would say "If you fear rejection, keep fearing rejection." It's pretty much the same as "If you're not confident, don't try and build confidence."
 mike11091
Joined: 8/25/2013
Msg: 839
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 2/1/2015 3:30:14 PM

So if I compliment a guy on something I find interesting in passing it's interpreted as (romantic) interest? OK, good to know.


Actually, I think one's ability to differentiate between a simple compliment and interest is pretty fundamental. It's the borderline between irritating pickup behavior and actual "game".

Being able to read body language and other cues is fundamental. The initial exchange, following the above example, doesn't mean she is romantically interested, but the follow up is how you figure that out.

I only say that 'cause I used to wear a hemp necklace (please don't judge me) and I'd get compliments on it all the time.
 Dee4166
Joined: 6/16/2007
Msg: 840
view profile
History
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 2/1/2015 7:38:18 PM
@mike....
I am truly sorry that you've had to go through that as a child.....NO child should EVER have to experience something like that.
I'm going to also hazard a guess that you are probably pretty hard on yourself, as well....

Thing is that while it's nice to say "just make the CHOICE and get OVER it" you should be grateful that you yourself have been able to, to whatever degree that you have...

There are prisons and rehabs and asylums that are FILLED with others who haven't been so lucky.

When trying to "get over" something like that, there are usually 3 stages...Awareness, Decision and Conversion...

You can't change a thing until you are aware of it, (denial) and many folks get stuck here, never "knowing" what's actually causing the problem....
Then there's the Decision, where you are AWARE of the problem but have to decide to do something about it...that normally comes about when you have paid enough "consequences" of whatever the behaviour is producing, that need to be changed.
Then comes the Conversion, where you take action....and finally change something...
Any and all of these stages can and often do, take time....

The "big secret" of the mental health field is that nobody knows WHY it is that two people can experience the EXACT same trauma and yet one person will be able to get past it and go on to lead a happy productive Life, while another will become a mass murderer,
If it was as easy as "making the choice" I somehow doubt that anybody WOULDN'T make that choice, don't you??

While you are 100% right and we DO have at least SOME choice, everybody has their own way of processing things and when dealing with early Life trauma particularly, that often takes a lot of TIME.

An attitude of "Well I did it, why can't they?" is RARELY if ever helpful, however "logical" that may seem to you or anyone else, as we are ALL unique individuals, on our own paths with our own challenges...what has worked for you, may NOT necessarily work for someone else.

I, too, have had a pretty rough background and had to learn that an attitude like that is only isolating me even further from other people, when what I needed to do was to be more open and understand how to be more empathetic towards others which helped ME to heal, by becoming more compassionate towards MYSELF....

Just my opinion and some thoughts to mull over.....
 Coma_White
Joined: 9/15/2013
Msg: 841
view profile
History
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 2/1/2015 8:23:50 PM

So if I compliment a guy on something I find interesting in passing it's interpreted as (romantic) interest? OK, good to know.


Whoah, slow down there. We're not talking about that stage yet. It's simply a way to break the ice with people. Some women may be romantically interested in men they speak to and some may not be. I think a man has a better chance if he keeps the conversation going rathern than letting it go cold. It's easier for women to talk to a man if he's wearing something she can comment on. Otherwise, some people won't approach if they don't have an icebreaker.


If this is what you meant by mistakes, then this was a few pages that didn't need to happen. My fault. But this is where I was saying don't fear rejection and always take the shot. Don't rely on things like this happening. If you're interested, go for it. I wouldn't call not reading her mind when she comments on the necklace as the mistake, but not saying something regardless of if she said anything is the mistake. I know there's a few girls in here who disagree with being randomly approached, I've never experienced being a girl... But I try to stick with the idea that you never know if you don't try. That girl sitting there looking really mad can be mad that her friends ditched her and would love anyone at all to talk to (ofc be smartt and don't immediately start hitting on the girl). You're going to face way more rejection this way, but that's just because of numbers. You're taking more chances, so you're going to get rejected more times. I'd rather KNOW she doesn't want to talk to me than take a guess and then wonder if it was the right guess later.


That's what I mean. Take the opportunities that you're given. It doesn't matter if someone people on a message board disagree with being randomly approaches. Most of them are talking about being approached by guys they're not into or they're the exception.


I'd still stick with the be infinity% yourself though. I mean if you're not confident, don't change it, own it. Being timid isn't the death-sentence the forums make it out to be. If you're convinced that you're probably going to get rejected, well, what do you have to lose now? You're already convinced of the outcome, now you'll probably be more relaxed because you're not going to be as focused on impressing her, you're just out to be out. You just have to learn to not fear rejection. The more you can just accept it, the easier the rest of dating becomes. The problem with most advice is that it pushes you to be what you're not. You need to be confident to get the girl... How many guys have accidentally ended up with someone as a result of just making an ass of themselves and having fun?


No, being timid isn't the worst thing you can be, but it stifles you instead of allowing your energy to flow naturally. I don't think you even need to be confident to be successful, you just need to be competent. Having fun and not caring is a high value behaviour in my opinion. A successful person walks into a room with a smile on his face.


The fear of rejection is the most crippling thing in dating. If you can overcome that, you instantly become VERY noticeably better at dating. That's really all it comes down to. If you're interested in a girl, the worst possible outcome (except for a few cases on dating sites, see the "Ew & Yuk" thread) is that she's going to say no.


That's true. I think a lot of people get bent out of shape over rejection because their ego gets in the way. They think: "How could she reject ME??" When really, some people just don't mix. 20 rejections don't matter if one person says yes.
 gtomustang
Joined: 6/16/2007
Msg: 842
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 2/1/2015 10:18:16 PM
some people use a bad childhood--or other excuses--as an explanation for why they are where they are in life, yes.

But others really do lack what they need to overcome their adversity. Maybe they are just too darn sensitive to exist in this "nasty, brutish and short" world of ours'. Maybe they grew up in a war-torn place like Afganistan. Maybe they are bipolar or mentally handicapped or some other thing. My mother went thru the "gunfire in the household" story herself, and had a positive attitude in the 4 decades I knew her. My father came here with parents to escape the Nazis, they ditched in him 1930's NYC b/c they couldn't afford him, and he had a pessimistic attitude towards life (even tho he turned out quite OK). One had nature, and then likely nuture, to find the positive, and the other didn't have enough of it.

I believe there was a scientific study, a decade ago, that said you couldn't always predict the outcome of a child. Some born into high society failed to achieve their expected levels, and some born into adversity pulled themselves up by their bootstraps. sometimes, its a perfect storm of being born with gumption, and being exposed to opportunity. We just came out of a historic period where kids cranking out a tech startup that made no profit, got bought out for billions. all they had to do, basically, was show up in the right place, at the right time. Their great grandparents, however, may have performed the same task during the 1930's, which is how their family tree ended up with them having the money to go to college to learn how to get onto the Internet with nothing more than an idea and an ability to make a website.

"So if I compliment a guy on something I find interesting in passing it's interpreted as (romantic) interest? OK, good to know. "

>>>yes, its a bad assumption....well, depending upon how the compliment is made :) i heard two ladies complaining that men couldn't have a convo with them without it turning into a proposition--based on their experience, I couldn't blame them for assuming conversations "meant something" and tensing up or hoping to disappear or whatever their reactions were. They weren't acting out of paranoia.

If someone complimented me on something I had, and had that "expectant" gaze that said they were assuming the conversation would keep going...I might assume, she wants the conversation to continue.

I will confess, I won't do something 10 or 20 times to see if I get a payoff on the 21st (but then I don't do slot machines, either). Its fun to flirt sometimes, but for the most part, I take action to get a payoff--otherwise, I'm off, to go do something else that would actually be fun. Maybe its why some of us fail at being a nice guy, we give in too soon.
 CTRLvector
Joined: 9/21/2014
Msg: 843
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 2/2/2015 1:28:14 AM
Yeah I agree, its just an excuse to take a females experience with a guy who didn't treat her right - and then reform it to give validation to anyone who wants to claim that they are a nice guy. Typically meaning they haven't experienced any significant relationship -

I mean the whole thing is like a damn urban legend - where there are two sides - black and white. And on the one side you have these guys who get women, and they are associated with all these bad qualities. Then you have these other guys who claim perfection - only want to hold a women and cuddle - if only these women knew just how nice they were - just how much they would appreciate them till the end of time.

Yeah, because you don't know what novelty is yet, and eventually that wears off. I mean yeah, there are some relationships that are great. But you've not scratched the surface - and you don't realize that two bodies together get really hot, like annoyingly hot sometimes. And if you do fall to sleep together, you end up sticking to each other. And yeah your hormones want that shit - that's nature telling you to get off your ass and do something.

Yeah see how long that lasts, see how long you go before you start resenting the fact that its been a abnormally bad day - your girlfriend hasn't had sex with you in 2 weeks because you laughed when some old dude called some women a beast. Never mind that you've been in the military and acquired a taste for indecent jokes. So she gives you the silent treatment over something petty like that. And here's the kicker - she decides to turn up the volume on her marathon of bad girls instead of down even after you ask politely because you have a headache.

And lets say glamorized stupidity causes you to lose hope in humanity. And at that point, you don't really any more proof that the human race is doomed. The point is - at eventually you will break nice guys - and even if that's your first girlfriend you will no longer be able to count yourself among the few - the flawless. Because your impulse is to throw the remote into the TV, thus breaking you from the curse of internet access to non-stop reality TV. Because you will grab the remote, you will wrestle it from her if you have to, and you will either throw it into the TV or take the batteries out.

I can assure you that you though - there isn't a breed of shady men that treat women horrible, thus vexing the "nice guy." Its simple way to rationalize being shy - a way to be free of being accountable for failure to act. Nobody likes to admit they're behind the curb, and nobody likes pain. So its common place to separate yourself from the incident, but its not accurate to any degree.

Pointing fingers is a cowards way, and I can assure you that nobody is always nice. Nice is not a state of being, and neither is bad. And guys that can get more women typically end up moving forward from relationships. Those guys also tend to be more outgoing - usually extroverts who are confident about themselves. And from the highschool perspective, are jocks.

Its just the natural learning curb, and if you're not ahead - you're behind, and you're not mature enough to want to be accountable for anything bad at that age - because that is typically the age where you know everything and rent is super easy to pay, so is everything else - and highschool is serious business. Not for the education - because the social life is just soooo important.

There are decent and indecent people, there are factors that apply to everything. And if the women says that she dates guys that aren't nice - it may simply be a cause of them not taking accountability for their own actions.

Nobody wants to admit when they screw up, nobody wants to admit they are vulnerable - but if you don't then you will become delusional. And that's a horrible place to be, if you can't see reality - you're screwed, because that means you get it wrong every time
 mike11091
Joined: 8/25/2013
Msg: 844
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 2/2/2015 7:46:14 AM

An attitude of "Well I did it, why can't they?" is RARELY if ever helpful, however "logical" that may seem to you or anyone else, as we are ALL unique individuals, on our own paths with our own challenges...what has worked for you, may NOT necessarily work for someone else.


You're misunderstanding the point that I was making. Even the crazy ones, the people that end up in hospitals because of their childhoods, came to the same fork in the road. They made a choice. That choice was to NOT move on. It's very simple. Either you move on and put it behind you, or you don't. There's no amount of empathy in the world that's going to "fix" the problem. It will always be a problem, even in well-adjusted people because, as of today, you CAN'T change the past. No amount of hand-holding will remedy that.

With that said:
It's not about my own personal stakes. It's a simple truth. A divergent path with 2 choices. There's no 3rd option. Bringing mental disorders into it is, again, beyond the scope of what my point is. I was addressing a forumite, not prisoners or mental patients. As a functional adult, using a bad childhood as an excuse for bad behavior is not an acceptable defense.

If it truly IS such a burden, then that person should seek help (as I stated in a previous post).

It all falls into the "learned helplessness". People are coddled by friends and family for this behavior, and learn that they can do anything and simply say, "Oh, it's because I had a rough childhood," instead of actually taking responsibility for their actions.


I can assure you that you though - there isn't a breed of shady men that treat women horrible, thus vexing the "nice guy." Its simple way to rationalize being shy - a way to be free of being accountable for failure to act. Nobody likes to admit they're behind the curb, and nobody likes pain.


On another point, I think this hits the nail on the head.
 InnerGorilla
Joined: 4/1/2014
Msg: 845
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 2/2/2015 8:05:19 AM

So if I compliment a guy on something I find interesting in passing it's interpreted as (romantic) interest? OK, good to know.


Okay, this has been my experience with this type of situation. Most very attractive women are hit by good looking guys, predatory guys, average guys so much that many AVOID making eye contact with these guys or even giving them a complement. So when ever they go out of their way to complement a guy, it's because they find the guy INTERESTING. Notice I said interesting, not even necessarily attracted. What that means is that she has her guard down and it's allowing the guy to then communicate. Could that escalate, absolutely. Should it escalate? Of course. But that is where the guy can keep communicating with the girl, and if he is smart, he keeps it under the radar until she gives him more signals of interest. And women will give out signals if she is interested.
 norwegianguy123
Joined: 10/27/2014
Msg: 846
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 2/2/2015 8:56:21 AM

Actually, I think one's ability to differentiate between a simple compliment and interest is pretty fundamental. It's the borderline between irritating pickup behavior and actual "game".

If a girl compliments you on the necklace, chances are there's Possibly some interest. That's what the follow-thru's all about. Yes, you don't take a compliment on your necklace as "Do you want to go out Saturday night?" or "I want to suck you off in the bathroom, stat." The follow-thru is to figure out if there's any real interest, and if so, to what degree, etc. I think Coma's point was doing a follow-thru VS not. Those who do not are the ones who are kick rocks, complaining that the singles/dating scene is too tough.

I might simply acknowledge her compliment and move on... or not... depending on my mood...

... or depending on how she looks and her body language... if she's expressive in an inviting way, she's attractive, and you're single, I would hope you'd open things up and follow-thru, right?

Or perhaps, I've decided she is only dropping a casual nicety...

True, that happens. Many times you can read that there's a high chance of that, depending on her body language.

Or I might decide if she's trying to pick me up that she has to put more effort into it...

A lot of guys aren't going to be so demanding if she's cute. :)

People seduce themselves as often as not... Leaving her with the option to try harder can itself be a good pick up technique

And a cute response could be, "Well, you're going to have to try harder than that.... (wink)." But in passing, there's going to be little option to let her pass by and think to oneself "Well, she's going to have to try harder." Very little chance she's going to walk 10-20 yards past you, turn around, catch up with you, and chase you down. But yeah, at a Super Bowl party at a local bar, knowing that you're going to bump into her again (as you've been in her general vacinity up until this point), sure. But I think, in reference to what you're saying, one's best bet is to follow-thru at that point -- but to express a little hard-to-get, and to "lay up" to follow-thru (or to position her to follow-thru) more later if you know you're going to be within their social-mingling crowd a bit later.

Maybe that's why a lot of guys with a sense of humour do well... aside from being funny, and that can be a good thing in itself for picking up ladies... a lot of guys who have a real sense of humour can appreciate their own failure in funny way rather than, being depressed by it

I think it goes both ways. From my experience, guys with a good sense of expressive humor can do a little of that, but also definitely be the type that's on the sidelines as well -- observing and chuckling at those who get shot-down, and making good jokes about it.

Lot's of people with a sense of humour are less likely to take themselves seriously and are able to see things in a detached, amused way...

Ehhh, I dunno. Yeah, there's definitely that, but I wouldn't say it's an accurate stigma to place on them. They can just as easily be the ones who laughingly/jokingly razz those who do such things and are a sideliner as well. I think such higher-humor guys, when not getting a taste of va-jay-jay in a long while, after a few drinks, yes -- are going to commonly approach as well, even though weeks prior they were a sideline commentator.
 rockin-trucker82
Joined: 1/4/2014
Msg: 847
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 2/2/2015 2:06:15 PM

I don't think you even need to be confident to be successful, you just need to be competent. Having fun and not caring is a high value behaviour in my opinion. A successful person walks into a room with a smile on his face.


Yeah. I've said it a few times, you don't fail your way to confidence. It's always going to take some success to build that up. Breaking that fear frees you from any worry. Rejection always sucks, because obviously you were kind of aiming for the opposite, but when it's at the point where you just immediately move on from it, it doesn't give as hard of a hit.

By accepting that you're timid, and using that to your advantage, I'm willing to bet that you'd actually have an advantage over the confident guy. If you already accepted the rejection, you're free to just act naturally, just take the chance anyway. You're probably going to come off as seeming like you're more confident than the confident guy. And then as you slowly find success, you'll gain confidence, but in a different way. You'll probably have doubts that you're going to get that specific girl, but you'll have more faith that you'll get A girl. It's a lot of how I work. I get dates fine, but for the first 2 or 3 dates, I assume she's not even going to show up. History since joining POF has kind of supported that idea way too much. If she shows up, awesome, someone to hang out with. If she don't, I'm right up the street from a pool hall, I can go get some practice in.

If you have friends, you can get a girlfriend. The only difference is there's typically more of an emotional attachment to the girlfriend, and sex. But out of the bedroom, it's exactly like a friend that you eventually decide to live with, and then learn how hard it really is having a roommate. This is why most of my life I'd date, but never wanted a relationship. I didn't want all the hard parts that come with it. Just dating is really just enjoying all the good parts, minus any dry spells, they suck.
 norwegianguy123
Joined: 10/27/2014
Msg: 848
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 2/2/2015 2:24:26 PM

If you have friends, you can get a girlfriend. The only difference is there's typically more of an emotional attachment to the girlfriend, and sex.

Yeah... I slap my buddies on the a$$, call him hot-stuff... make out with them in a parking lot, kiss their neck a bit in public, hold hands walking down the sidewalk, try and convince them to make out with their female friends while I watch, go thru his underwear drawer for fun once in a while, gazes into his eyes and smile, buy him flowers on occasion, and get jealous if/when he's flirting with dudes at the bar. Yep, pretty much the same. ;)

All humor aside -- I get your point though... you want a GF to mesh well with you just like a close buddy would.
 mike11091
Joined: 8/25/2013
Msg: 849
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 2/2/2015 3:10:07 PM

Yeah... I slap my buddies on the a$$, call him hot-stuff... make out with them in a parking lot, kiss their neck a bit in public, hold hands walking down the sidewalk, try and convince them to make out with their female friends while I watch, go thru his underwear drawer for fun once in a while, gazes into his eyes and smile, buy him flowers on occasion, and get jealous if/when he's flirting with dudes at the bar. Yep, pretty much the same.


I get it that this was mostly a joke, but aside from the kissing and going through the underwear drawer, I knew a couple of dudes that acted exactly like this. I'm not sure if it was some sort of latent homo-sexuality or as some kind of joke, but it was really creepy.

Oh, and


By accepting that you're timid, and using that to your advantage, I'm willing to bet that you'd actually have an advantage over the confident guy. If you already accepted the rejection, you're free to just act naturally, just take the chance anyway. You're probably going to come off as seeming like you're more confident than the confident guy.


This is a convoluted way of saying, "if you're timid, fake being confident." Which is all fine and good, but contradicts your previous agenda of remaining timid vs. making changes.

Just because you're wording it differently doesn't change the fact that one must exude confidence to win hearts and minds. Either make it or fake it.

That's not saying the Milton's of the world don't have matches, it's just going to be a little rough getting there. (hopefully, not by burning down a building over a stapler.)
 rockin-trucker82
Joined: 1/4/2014
Msg: 850
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 2/2/2015 5:11:06 PM

This is a convoluted way of saying, "if you're timid, fake being confident." Which is all fine and good, but contradicts your previous agenda of remaining timid vs. making changes.

Just because you're wording it differently doesn't change the fact that one must exude confidence to win hearts and minds. Either make it or fake it.


That's not what I'm saying at all. You're nowhere close. I'm saying to accept that rejection happens and that it's not the end of the world. Don't fear rejection. If you're the type of person that you're willing to bet you're going to be shot down, use it. You go in already rejected, how much worse can it get? The outcome doesn't matter anymore. You're just having fun.

But using our more common definition of the word... So you're afraid of rejection, but you're good with talking. Take that rejection out of the equation, and now you're just talking. Or maybe you're bad at talking to people. You know that odds are, she's not going to find you very interesting. So when you get rid of that rejection, then you're just on a numbers game until one breaks you out of your shell, or carries the conversations for you. You're basically using being timid as a positive trait. Instead of putting on this act, you're accepting the fact she's probably not going to date you. You just removed any stress that can possibly be involved.

In no way do you have to exude confidence. When these girls are saying you have to be confident, and these guys are saying it, I think coma picked the right word. You don't have to be confident, you have to be competent. Have you ever been surprised that a girl was into you? Did you ever think someone wasn't interested, but later found out you were wrong? That's proof that you don't have to be confident.

Rejection is a fact of dating. Everything really lies on how you handle that. If you fear it, or try to avoid it, it's going to be hard to find success because rejection is going to control what you say, how you act, etc. If you don't care about rejection, or you take the shot anyway despite being sure you're already never getting that far, you're in complete control of what you say and do. It's not about impressing the other person, it's about enjoying the other person now. It's just a different way of approaching the situation. One way, you're sure you're likely to succeed. The other way, you don't let the likelihood of failure stop you from trying anyway, no confidence needed. Plus, the added benefit that you likely won't rush anything. It lets the relationship build naturally.
 mike11091
Joined: 8/25/2013
Msg: 851
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 2/2/2015 6:10:50 PM
I wasn't trying to get close to your point.
You're intentionally trying to debunk confidence, when, in fact, your saying it in other words. You don't want to admit that, and that's fine, but that which you've been talking about IS confidence.

Actually, excessive belief in someone (or something) succeeding, without any regard for failure is defined as Overconfidence.

If you take out the "stress" about the outcome, again, that's confidence. You can scream all day that you're not talking about confidence, but you are. Think about what confidence is and then reread your last two posts. Look it up in the dictionary.

A lack of confidence, would be shelling up, getting nervous, being unable to move past your fears or look her in the eyes. Those are shy reactions. Being confident isn't all about randomly approaching women and being the kick starter to every human interaction. Confidence is about being you without worrying about what other people think or how they will react.

You're confusing confidence with extroversion.
 rockin-trucker82
Joined: 1/4/2014
Msg: 852
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 2/2/2015 6:32:06 PM

A lack of confidence, would be shelling up, getting nervous, being unable to move past your fears or look her in the eyes. Those are shy reactions. Being confident isn't all about randomly approaching women and being the kick starter to every human interaction. Confidence is about being you without worrying about what other people think or how they will react.

You're confusing confidence with extroversion.


Confidence isn't an all or nothing trait. I'm confident in my ability to drive a truck, I'm not confident in my ability to perform surgery.

If you have no confidence that you're going to get the date, but you're comfortable talking to people, then you're just talking, you're already rejected in your head. You're acting on your assumption of failure. You're not suddenly becoming confident that she'll date you, you're just accepting probable failure and completely taking that issue of the table. Almost everyone has been in that spot. Have you ever talked to the hot girl but thought she's not interested in anything more than talking? What I'm talking about is going for it anyway, even though you know for a fact that you're going to fail.

You're playing off of the negative. It's not confidence. You're going into this already failing, whether you fail or not. When you do that, the assumption that you're not going to get the date doesn't disappear, it's still there, but you're not acting to avoid it anymore. You're just letting the rejection happen and focusing on the conversation. Being apprehensive isn't necessarily a bad thing. We're putting a negative tone to the reason you wear a seatbelt.

I'm not talking about confidence, I'm talking about not fearing rejection. Two completely different things.
 norwegianguy123
Joined: 10/27/2014
Msg: 853
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 2/2/2015 8:11:24 PM

This is a convoluted way of saying, "if you're timid, fake being confident." Which is all fine and good, but contradicts your previous agenda of remaining timid vs. making changes.

I see his quote as being more like "if you're timid, own it, embrace it -- and the by-product will be you'll end up being coming Across as confident." You're not TRYING to take it, or making "moves" to fake it -- your vagenda is creating a comfortable comfort-zone for yourself -- just love the by-product! IMO, you WILL become more confident -- which I see as making changes.

Why? Because you're changing you ways in a different way, is all. You didn't embrace/own being timid? Great, Embrace it. Let it become you. Much easier said than done, just like saying "be confident". So it IS calling for change -- he thinks it's more in line with your natural roots, but it's still change.

Don't fear rejection. If you're the type of person that you're willing to bet you're going to be shot down, use it. You go in already rejected, how much worse can it get? The outcome doesn't matter anymore. You're just having fun.

I agree with your approach. I really do -- as a starting point for someone who lacks confidence and is timid about it all. But you're still asking for some change though. It's not as easy as it seems -- even though, sure, it's an easier Step than most others.

In no way do you have to exude confidence.

But as you said, if you embrace rejection and it doesn't phase you one bit -- much like one's sports team losing all the time and you just saying "Fvck it, they lose, whatever. I want to see them get good draft picks, I'm embracing this," -- you'll come across (exude) more confident than a typical (reasonably) confident guy. Why? You ARE confident. You're confident that you'll get shot down. You change your mindset. "So what? Fvck it. I embrace this." You're now confident in your approach, whether it always has been decent, isn't good, or makes the hall of fame in suckiness.

My advice? It's a good first step, to jump into the cold pool so to speak. A big change. However, once you've accomplished this, what's next? You're not going to find a problem adjusting your game to a decent one that flows well with you. In fact, Much more things will flow well with you because you don't care about getting rejected anymore. You're not going to be rigid and stringent about all the little things and some bigger things. You don't care anymore about rejection, thus, you don't have fear. So, learn about some game, and make improvements/adjustments due to Knowledge gained that fits you decently.
 phinatic14
Joined: 5/10/2013
Msg: 854
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 2/4/2015 11:56:54 AM
Gee, you go out of town for a few days and look what you miss. Such a rivetting discussion.

[As I said in my post, I have no respect for people that make excuses for themselves]

I'm glad you feel this way. Now I can have some fun. . As much as this may shock you, the world isn't all black and whiite as you would like to believe. I realize the more scientific discussions on this forum are hard for you to understand, but at least try to see things from another person's perspective. It's not anyone's fault that you quit school because you couldn't handle multiple-choice tests, and asking you to read anything beyond the sports section was too much for you to handle. I have no respect for someone lacks empathy and who tells others about how easy it is to deal with something. Everyone is different.

Now, I'm not using my past as an excuse. I'm using it as an explanation. There are big differences between the two. Do you need me to tell you what those are?

Secondly, where in any of my posts am I giving advice about finishing college?

Now, you have mentioned a few times that you don't mean to be cold or callous when responding to others posts that side with me. I think you do, and it's now painfully obvious why you are this way. If what you said about the whole murder-suicide at six years old and bouncing around foster care is true, then this is a good explanation of why you are the way you are. Lossing family members at that age was a lot to handle. Being sent to different foster care homes, in which you probably became attached to each one and then was forced to go another home was traumatic as well. Especially at six years old. You no doubt became attached to each home, and being bounced around didn't help much. I could get into the really scientific stuff, but you'd just get lost. So, you say it's easy for someone to get over a traumatic childhood or pick up and go after seeing something they can't process. It's as easy as flipping the switch. So you're special, is that it? No, you're in denial. There's no shame in that. It's a common defense mechanism used by a lot of people.

So keep telling yourself you got over it tough guy, and that it's easy for someone to get over a difficult past. It's obviously working out great for you isn't it?
 antirepublican
Joined: 12/31/2014
Msg: 855
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 2/4/2015 12:48:23 PM

Now, I'm not using my past as an excuse. I'm using it as an explanation.


I am with you on this one, phinatic. I've read your earlier posts and it looks to me that you were merely assessing your boundary conditions as opposed to putting them forth as a reason for anything in particular.

I do think that Comma White is correct. You can improve your odds but the question is for what? If you believe Malcolm Gladwell, 10,ooo hours of practice invested into something will make you a master. 1000 hours will make you very good. People have only so many blocks of 10,000 hours during their lifetimes. Is using one on womanising worthwhile? Some would undoubtedly say yes. Some would say no. Is there something else that you could use your hours on that could bring you more lasting satisfaction? I think that that is the kind of choice that you already made. Who can call that wrong?
 mike11091
Joined: 8/25/2013
Msg: 856
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 2/4/2015 1:59:17 PM
Ah, reading comprehension is key.

Where to begin.


It's not anyone's fault that you quit school because you couldn't handle multiple-choice tests, and asking you to read anything beyond the sports section was too much for you to handle. I have no respect for someone lacks empathy and who tells others about how easy it is to deal with something. Everyone is different.


I earlier made a post about how it was a financial situation and not about grades, but that was a nice try.

I suppose when one's arguments don't have a leg to stand on, resulting to personal attacks and creating imaginary scenarios about why a person, for example, dropped out of college, is the constructive way to go.


Secondly, where in any of my posts am I giving advice about finishing college?


No. You were again, attacking the fact that I didn't finish it. Because your argument lacks substance, so you, very maturely, attacked an unrelated aspect of my life. The point I was making, in regards to the advice thing, is that there is no parallel between me finishing college and giving dating advice. Whereas, someone who admitted to being inexperienced in the dating world, shouldn't be giving dating advice.


Now, I'm not using my past as an excuse. I'm using it as an explanation.


That's not true. You were using it to justify your actions. AKA: an excuse.


No, you're in denial. There's no shame in that. It's a common defense mechanism used by a lot of people.


Being cold or callous toward one individual is hardly a significant sign of denial. And I've been around here long enough to know the posters I was replying to. My sympathy for how I sounded, to them, was real, despite your assertions to the contrary.

Also, I should reiterate (as previously posted) that I never said "as easy as flipping a switch". I said "it's an easy choice." Either you let it consume/define you or you move on. The world is as black and white as you make it. :)

I eagerly await your misinterpretation of the above.
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