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 canyunflyer
Joined: 2/6/2006
Msg: 76
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The infamous NICE GUY rantPage 4 of 38    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38)
Spare me: Another emotions fueled argument about topics and definitions instead of Issues! Why don't you people just sit down for 5 minutes and actually come up with a mutually aggreed upon definition for words like Nice...and Good.... ect. It doesn't mean that you all have to aggree that the definition is accurate... just that there is some kind of foundational starting point from which to actually carry on effective debate. And.... stop it with the 20,000 word posts!!! there outta be a law! ha!
 MarkCK
Joined: 9/24/2005
Msg: 77
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 8/25/2006 2:30:08 PM
yeah, down with all you negative ho's!!!

do something positive. write something positive.

 thegreatrockyhill
Joined: 12/26/2005
Msg: 78
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 8/25/2006 10:57:25 PM
etownboy79 I want to apologize for being curt with you. I'm going through some things right now, and I shouldn't have been posting when feeling angry at the world.


Okay, I see where you're coming from Iwarrior. I think we have a couple of differences of opinion though, let me attempt to clarify if you'll allow me the priveledge. I made a couple of statements in my previous post that you took as something I didn't intend them to sound like, and it's probably because my written english skills could use some improvement. Anyway...


It's ok. I was being testy.




No, I don't think the MAJORITY of people are afraid of public speaking, even though it's a completely rational fear.


I took a public speaking class in college. Believe me, most people would get nervous up there. It's been said that people are more afraid of public speaking than of skydiving.

I actually did well in the class. I actually like public speaking. So it's not like I am totally without confidence. I am unsure of myself a lot of the time though. It comes and goes.


I certainly don't think that having this fear makes you any less of a human being. Not being afraid of public speaking isn't the only reason someone could be found "desirable", but I'm sure it's a quality that most women would find attractive in a man. I'm also sure that EVERYONE who does have a fear of public speaking, wishes they did not have that fear. So working on something like that is healthier for the ego, and if you're ego is healthy (and not co*ky, because that is a false ego) you will attract people that you desire more easily.


I think you're right. I mean, I'm not the kind of guy that walks around with his head down. If a girl starts talking to me, I'll talk her ear off.




Agreed, that is normal. It's also normal to work on those areas within yourself. What's not normal is not wanting or trying to work on those areas where you feel "less than".


I'll agree in part. But just because people feel less than doesn't mean they really are. Others may make them feel that way.




Women don't think to themselves..."Wow, look at how co*ky he is, that sure is hot!" So you're right and you should not have any desire to be that way. However, what you misunderstand as co*ky behaviour is USUALLY a healthy confidence. The people that exude this healthy confidence may go overboard at times, but noones perfect. These shortcomings are what you believe to be a successful man's everyday behaviour, which isn't true.


It is good to feel good about oneself.




Maybe you need to forget what society has taught you like every man who is successful with women has. I don't think that if this type of behaviour was offering the results you desire, you would not have complained about your lack of luck with women in the first place. And you wouldn't have complained that society makes it hard for you "nice guys" to get relationships with the girls you really want.


My poor luck with women has to do with a lot of things. I don't think it's because I'm "too nice". I don't think my behaviour has anything to do with it.




No, I don't go on about how great I am either, at least I hope I don't. I do believe that if you worded that headliner differently though, it could sound less "try hard". I can't really put my finger on the right definition here, I'll try a couple more: needy, desperate, attention whorish? I'm sorry I can't think of a better word. I can just visualize a guy seeing a girl he finds attractive saying "your headliner" in passing, with his hand in the air, and I think she might just walk right on by only because that's exactly what you've asked her not to do. Of course, I guess it would depend on how you say it.


I don't see how my headline shows that I'm trying too hard though. I just came up with it off the top of my head. I thought it was funny. Most of the people who have reviewed my profile here liked my profile. You're the first person to say those things about my profile.



They are obviously not the kind of girls you want, or else you wouldn't still be here, would you?


You sort of have a point. My main problem throughout my life has been that the women who make it known that they want me, for the most part, have not been women I have found attractive. They find me attractive,interesting, etc. There have been lots of women who have been interested in me. I've gotten a pretty good amount of messages from women here and elsewhere.

Here's another thing. When I do get messages from women I am attracted to, they're always far away. And the women in my area that I message first hardly ever reply.

But here's another thing. I am in love with a girl in RL (long story). I really only came here to see if I was dateable. And many women seem to think so. So being here has increased my confidence.

I don't feel that I am needy in my messages to the women who don't reply. I usually try to think of something to ask them, something in their profile. I'll flirt a little, compliment them on their pics.

I think the reasons they don't reply are...

1-They're here for the same reason I am.

2-They're looking for someone of a higher status.

3-They don't relate to my interests.

4-They want someone with a very specific look and body type. They don't want a bald guy under 6 ft tall.

5-Shyness.

I doubt that these women look at my pics and laugh or throw up. :) I hope they don't.

I can be very self-conscious at times. I worry about how I look a lot. I took at least 50 pics before I came up with some that I liked, and even I'm not totally happy with those.

And I am self-effacing at times. That's because I'm being honest. If I acted like I was the greatest guy in the world, I'd be lying to everyone, including myself.



I think you might be right here, and I've been trying to come up with some better humour for my profile. I can be self-effacing when it's for the purpose of humour, and not for the purpose of getting pity. As for the car, I agree, but having that car there is what explains my opening paragraph, where I question my readers how they think I got it. Don't forget, I mention clearly that I didn't pay for the car in that opening statement, so the car is clearly not meant as a "show of bling" to attract hoochies.


Fair enough. I see what you were trying to do.




Well, I suppose a desirable girl in the context I was using it in is a girl who would consistently rate as at least an 8 by most men on the scale of 10. This is based on looks alone, I admit that, but when you first see a girl you might be interested in, this is all you have to go on until you engage converstaion. If she turns out to be a "bimbo", then yes, she is the opposite of desirable, and moving on is surely the first course of action to be taken.


Thing is, I have my own tastes. I don't usually go for the girls that every guy sees as a ten. There are girls that are tens in my eyes, but might not be in others eyes.

What is a ten anyway? I don't even see what the big deal is about supermodels. I'm not the kind of guy that has posters of hot chicks on his wall and fantasizes about being with them. I prefer real women.

I also go for women with certain personalities. The flaky, self-absorbed "hot" chick, isn't a girl I am attracted to. I may look at her, but I have no desire to talk to her.

This past weekend, I was invited to a "thing" at an art gallery. The girl who invited me introduced me to one of her friends. She was very cute. But I talked to her for five minutes, and gradually lost interest. She was just totally into herself.

Another thing. I see good-looking girls a lot. But I really don't even feel like going up to them. I look at them and that's that. It's not only that a lot of them seem to not want to be bothered, but it's also that I just don't always feel like talking to people. And I know what it's like to have people bug you when you don't feel like talking. It happens to me a lot. :) So much so, that I wore headphones while on the bus for years because somebody wanted to rant my ear off. I'm not anti-social. I just don't always feel like talking. It happens online too. If I leave my IM up, someone will start messaging me when I'm in the middle of something. It's nothing personal. I just don't always feel like chatting.

I mean, there are women who think I am handsome and can't understand why I don't have a g/f or wife. On the other hand, I have had people tell me to my face that I am butt-ugly.

Like this girl I am in love with. I'm not even going to rate her because I think it's silly to do that. But I do think that she is beautiful.




Yes, people, especially women, make assumptions about you very quickly, and your headline is what will give them a first impression.
Do I think that even if a woman reading your headline feels the same way I do about it that she is immediately going to skip you? Not necessarily, but she may already have a pre-judgement about you that you may not be able to overcome by the end of your profile, which means, no contact.


But do you really think that's the case though? I mean, I usually look at the girls pic first. I don't even pay attention to the headlines.

Being funny is possible without being obnoxious or fatuous, and also without being self-effacing, as you put it.



Yes, I have thought alot about this subject. Paris Hilton is a 3 dressed up as a 9, in the words of the great "Trooper". Physically she is attractive but no, I don't want a girl like that either.


Ok then. Good for you.


However, give her the attitude and morality of someone sweet, caring and intelligent, and then you will have an EXTREMELY good catch right there.


Eh, maybe. I don't really find her attractive though, but I see what you're saying.


How many 8 and ups get hit on at least ten times a day? All of them. Ask one if you don't believe me, the more physically attractive she is, the more she gets hit on. Unless she closes herself off and puts up unbreakable sheilds with her posture and body language, which is what some women do.


I think you're exagerrating. I do think that a lot of the women that seem stuck-up may just be tired of being hit on though. It depends on where they are. If they're at a bar, then yes they'll get hit on a lot. Not all women are totally surrounded by men all the time.




Sucessful with women=someone who isn't comlaining about his lack of success with women.


Well, you have a point. But not all of those men will complain. I go through long periods of time where I don't care. I get caught up in other things.


All you want is one girl, but to find that one girl you may need to date 10 or more.


But see. I don't want it to be like finding a job. I don't want to date around. I think it should just happen. This girl I am in love with was someone I met when the last thing on my mind was finding a g/f.


If you don't have the skills to approach those ten and have them pursue a relationship with you, then you'll never meet that one.


But why do you have to have "skills"? Again, you're making it out to be a game.




No, they represent themselves the best way they can by doing what they know works best, just like everyone else is. The truly attractive confidence can not be faked, the fake confidence can only be faked for a very short amount of time. Women know almost immediately if you're faking, cause they ARE ALWAYS better at reading body language and people then men are. This is a fact I can prove to you some other time.


Again, I think you're putting too much thought into it. I don't feel I should have to worry about my body language or anything like that.




For someone who is upset because his personality type is being over-generalized, you sure have a way of fighting fire with fire.


I can be antagonistic, yes, but only when I feel that I am being wronged in some way.


What you are saying is NOT ALWAYS the case, in fact, very rarely is what you say actually happening. Again, confirm this with other girls if you don't believe me. Guys who get lots of dates have worked hard on themselves to be as attractive to the opposite sex as possible.


Eh, not always. A lot of them are just good at bullcrap. A lot of them have a lot of money.


The reason they do this is to give themselves as many options and opportunities as possible, and there is noting immoral about that.


I agree, there's nothing wrong with putting yourself out there, and that may be part of my problem.


As far as the guys who "screw around", well, if you mean that they are cheating on their significant others, than yes, I agree that they are acting like total scum.


Regardless of whether or not they're in a relationship, I do think it's wrong to sleep around.



I hope you don't honestly think that it's only liars with big wallets that are successful with women. I'm sure most girls would disagree.


No I don't. It just seems that way sometimes.

I envy guys that are in loving, committed relationship. Those are the guys I am jealous of. Not the players.



Me too, but if you don't equip yourself with the skills to show that girl that you are all the things you say you are, then you've lost completely.


But what skills? You talk to someone, they talk to you. Why is this like a game?




Well, there is nothing wrong with visualizing a great "roll in the hay" with someone.


I agree. I have my fantasies. Even with the girl I'm in love with. But mine with her are romantic most of the time.

I used to do that a lot with women. But it's something I feel that I have grown out of. And I didn't necessarily want to screw them for real, because I knew that they probably wouldn't want to have casual sex with someone. I know that my fantasy would be better than the reality. I've also always understood that women generally want to be in love when they have sex, and so do I. To me, it's better. If I just want to get off, I can do that myself while thinking of a "hot" girl or looking at autoerotica or something.

If you're dating a girl just to get her in bed, then imo that's wrong. If you meet a girl, and that's all you do is fantasize about her, then that's wrong.

Here's another thing. When there have been girls I have lusted after, I've found that when I get to know them as people, my lust usually subsides. There was a girl I used to work with whom I had dirty fantasies about. She had a great body and she knew it. But the more I got to know her, the less I wanted to have sex with her. In fact, I got tired of her shaking her little butt around all the time. I used to get annoyed with her because she hardly did any work and was always asking me for something when I had work to do. And she'd try to use her sexuality to get over on me too. She's bat her eyelashes and wiggle her stuff. And I just go, "Michelle, what do you want?" She thought she was something. But she was immature and petty, and she has bad teeth and bad breath. She just had a killer bod.

Guys would be telling me, "You need to get some of that!" But I just didn't want her.





You do it all the time.


No. Not really. At least not anymore. To tell the truth, I got tired of checking out girls. More than anything, I get annoyed with the way they dress. I'm also 32. So, a lot of these "hotties" are too young for me anyway. When I have to get the bus, I'll often see a lot of college-age girls waiting there with me since a bus to the community college ( not my bus ) runs there. Most of them are cute as hell. But they just look like little girls to me. 15 years ago, I'd be beside myself. I glance at them nowadays though and wish they'd pull up their jeans a little so I don't have to see their butt cleavage.

Which brings me to another thing. I do find these girls easier to talk to. Maybe because I don't really want them. They seem to at least not mind me. They'll talk to me out of the blue. Maybe I remind them of an older brother or something.

It's always been that way too. When I worked at a nightclub, and there was an under-21 night, the girls would hit on me like crazy. But I was 19 at the time. I'd have 13 year old girls blowing kisses at me. Other nights, the women that would hit on me would be at least 35. Older women seem to like me too. Girls around my age? Forget it.



However, if this girl turns out to have second class behaviour, it's a real turn off for MOST men, and the last thing they want to do is bring her home. The ones that will accept this type of behaviour are either desperate and needy, or the ones you talk about that are egomaniacal, self centered morons.


Eh, I agree with you somewhat.





When you are able to communicate to a woman that you are interested in her, it does not make you a pig. This is what the woman wants, isn't it? Do you think women want pigs? Every self-respecting girl finds it attractive when a man has enough confidence to tell her exactly how he feels without fearing the consequences of possible rejection.


I agree with that. But that's after I have known her for a little while. On a first date with a girl you barely know, you just want to relax, have fun, and get to know each other. I'm not going to want to sleep with her or fall in love with her yet.




Do not lie to yourself anymore that you are doing the chivalrous and noble thing by tip-toeing around the issues of attraction and sexuality,


Romantic attraction is something I don't think you should tip-toe around. Sex is something that should take time. Again, I'm not dating to get laid. After I have known her for a while, and I like her a lot, then yes, at some point I'd like to sleep with her. I'll make it known in a subtle way. I'm not going to be like, "Hey, I know you want this, so let's screw."


because women don't want you to do it, and it's getting you nowhere.


Women don't want to jump in the hay right away. Look at how many women complain about guys just wanting sex from them. I don't want women to think that I am a dog. Because I'm not.



The fact is, most guys that fit the "nice guy/doormat" category justify their fear of approaching a woman and telling her how he feels about her by claiming that, not "making your move", is the righteous and moral thing to do, and that just isn't the case.


Well, if you've known her for a while, then you're right that you shouldn't hide your feelings.



She will probably misinterpret you not wanting to have sex as you either A) Not being attracted to her. B) Afraid of rejection C)Denying your own biology with superficial ideas.


You seem to be saying that women expect to be lusted after right away.



However, if you are very vocal about wanting to obstain from the start of the relationship, then she will probably not see any of those things I just mentioned, and that would be fine. The problem is, most "nice guy/doormats" are too timid around the subject of sex, and will never be able to tell her why he is acting the way he is. This leaves the woman confused and annoyed, which is part of the reason these types of guys don't have any success.


So upon first contact, you should make it known that you want to sleep with her? Won't she think that you're looking for a f*ckbuddy?

I mean, the girls I have contacted here, were just women I found cute. Their pics weren't sexual at all. Just cute pics.

Now I have seen women here with very sexy pics, but most were not in my area. These were women I did have sexual thoughts about.

The ones that were, I just complimented them on their pics in a tasteful way. Hell, I've even sent messages to the ones that were nowhere near me. But many of those women complain about guys just saying sexual things to them (which I didn't do). I figure that they're just posting sexy pics to get noticed and to stand out. Then they're hoping that you'll talk to them and get to know them as people.



YES, exactly, if you're true motives are to have a relationship with the girl and you can only tell her you want that relationship with her by buying flowers/being too good of a listener and all the rest of that nice guy stuff, and you can't tell her with words, then you've lost your chance. At least I hope you've lost you're chance, because the only kind of girl you'll be picking up with that kind of behaviour is one that will break your heart after she's taken everything you've got.


I agree. You should tell her. I have done that in the past, but it always turned out that they were with another guy or just liked me as a friend.

I sent a letter to the girl I'm in love with. Telling her that I am in love with her, and that I want to be with her. I don't know if she got my letter yet though (long story, lots to explain). I laid it on the line.

I was a good listener and all of that. But I was just biding my time.



Having a good sex life does in no way reflect your amount of respect for women.


I agree if it's in a committed loving relationship. I want to have passionate, sweaty amazing sex with someone too. But I want it to be in a romantic context. I don't want to really do that with a girl I barely know. And it's not all that I want in the relationship either. I want to love her mind and personality as much as I do her body.



If you would stop treating women as if they don't know what they're doing, you might realize what I'm telling you. You are acting as if they are little children that need guidance because they always seem to go for what's "bad for them". As if YOU know what's right for them and they don't. It appears that you sir, are the one that has the lack of respect, since you put them on this pedestal of ignorance, at least from a womans perspective that is.


I don't feel that's the case.

Women do seem to get misled a lot by men. There are a lot of naive women with low self-esteem out there. And they do go for what's bad for them. I see it a lot. I can see that they aren't happy.

But I don't feel that all women are like that. I don't feel that I am putting women on a pedestal or babying them.



You sound like someone who is giving up on themselves. Don't. You just have to realize that it IS a game, and you have to want to play it. You see, women want you to chase them a little bit, if you don't, the woman thinks that you are not interested enough in them to make your move, and no woman wants a guy who doesn't want them back, right? If you do play their little game with them for a little bit, then and only then can the love happen "naturally" like you want it to. Sorry, but that's just the way it is.


Well then whatever. The game just isn't fun to me.

I can see the chase thing. I have done that. There's nothing wrong with courting a little. I just don't like the whole "jungle" of the dating scene. I don't like having to compete for dates.

The game I'm talking about is where guys want to see how many girls they can get. I just want one girl.



This is where I said that ALL men lust for women the instant they meet them. I made a mistake. I should have rephrased that. It should read: ALL men know instantly whether or not he is physically attracted to the woman he's just met.


Ok, fair enough. I usually do know when a girl is pretty. But they do "sneak up" on you too. This girl I'm talking about was one I didn't notice right away. I didn't start becoming attracted to her until she showed an interest in me. Then it hit me. She was pretty.


I don't mean that all men immediately concoct an elaborate fantasy of sexual behaviour in their heads about the woman they just met, don't misunderstand me here. To deny this is lying to yourself, because it's just biology that determines this, it's not a reflection of you or you're personality.


M Scott Peck did say that love is a "genetic trick", so you may be right.




Just like every other guy, we "take care of it" yes, I understand. The problem is that some "nice guy/doormats" think that having these urges is somehow immoral, and that feelings of lust equate to being disrespectful to women.


I don't think having sexual feelings is immoral. I just don't think it should be the only thing you care about in regards to a girl.


Their is nothing wrong with that once you are well into a relationship. If you are not, then it is an underhanded tactic used by the "nice guy/doormats" to get the girl, and that IS wrong.


I agree if it's just a ruse to get her in bed. That's not the case with me. The girls I have really liked were ones I got to know over time. I wanted to help them because I did care about them. I wanted to show them that I cared about them. I don't feel that it was underhanded or anything. It's not like I barely know these girls.

Say I meet a girl on PoF. We go out. I'm not going to buy her white roses. I'm not going to hold her hand and have her tell me about all of her problems. It's just fun at that point.




Yes, you are a good person. I know you're a hell of alot more physically attractive than I am, did you see my ugly mug when you looked at my profile? Lol, j/k. And no, there probably isn't anything really wrong with you.


Thanks for that.


But, if other people don't see the real you, that in fact IS your problem, and not theirs. You just have to give the girls that opportunity to see who you are, without falling for the B.S. conditioning that society has given you by telling you this type of behaviour is somehow immoral.


I feel that I am letting them see the real me.




Your worldview appears to think that women aren't able to control their impulses, and that they keep going for the wrong types of guys.


Just the opposite. I think women are way better at controlling their impulses than men.


Yes, it happens sometimes, but not as often as you imply. They want to be let known that they are being pursued, yes.


I prefer the word courting, but ok.


And, yes, many books and speakers on this subject have taught me what I know, not Maxim though.



Ok sorry. I think I misunderstood what you're about.




Again with the "I'm better than you" incinuations. You have to realize that you are the one who chooses to believe that everything said here is the rest of society's fault.


I think it is in part. I do think society places importance on the wrong things.



So the small minority of guys that think like you can keep thinking that way, and never really looking within to improve themsleves and their love lives. Well, you can sit on your throne of virtue while I go and meet some potential lovers. Can't you admit that maybe it's society who made you believe these lies you are telling yourself in the first place? The facts are, if you're not happy with the way things have been working out for you, maybe a different method should be considered? This is alot easier than saying society should change to conform to your beliefs, isn't it?


Well, I don't want to be someone I am not.

We can all improve ourselves. Me included. We are all works in progress. I never said that am better than everyone. I have my faults too. I know that I am not perfect. I guess I just figured you to be a player or something.

I think I just need to put myself out there more, but I'm not sure how to do it exactly. Online's not cutting it.




Only tryin to help, Cheers.


I understand. Same to you. :)
 romegaguy36
Joined: 4/21/2006
Msg: 79
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 8/26/2006 12:32:06 AM
This is bout the biggest "waste my time" post i've ever read.

First its all in how you see life. You either see the glass half empty or half full. I see it as half full you see it as half emply. Sure your logic way of thinking sees the "nice guys" as a bunch of losers who couldn't hold down a steady relationship due to being way over commited and passionate. Not true yes we may have the tendencies to feel like why r we the ones women will pass by and later find out she married some low life tom cruise look alike but now shes divorced 4 kids, battered, beaten, and in a 12 step program to recover from her drug addiction. So in a way we get the last laugh on these type of women.

But to me this post seems more of a cry for help from a woman who wouldn't settle for the average guy of any kind of character. She has enough insecurity within herself she feels that some rich guy with all the bells and whistle will sweep her away and they live happily ever after.

Ok i read enough why you don't like the nice guys so why do you want to be treated poorly????
If a guy is nice to you its for a reason, it shows good character and someone with good judgement not some desperate afraid to be alone looser who do anything to keep from being alone.

You just making assumptions about us nice guys. First of all i could care less what happens on a date or if i met somebody if they don't like me then i move on no big deal. You make it sound like its a matter of life or death which is not even close to being true.

The only thing about us nice guys that is remotely even true is we just like being friendly and show good character about ourselves. We show and try to impress that we can be a good canidate for a relationship. If they don't like us we're not going to beat ourselves up over it. We just move on and find someone who doesn't mind affection.

So its a matter of the glass being half empty or half full its just one's perception of things.
 rsoxfancg
Joined: 12/31/2005
Msg: 80
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 8/26/2006 12:48:44 PM
The article sounds like it was written as a way for women to pyschologically console themselves as to why they are attracted to men who treat them like crap. The problem isnt "nice" guys...........its the women who find this trait unattractive.

The reason why some guys treat women like crap is because women subconciously find that attractive, for what reason i really do not know.
 Etownboy79
Joined: 8/3/2006
Msg: 81
view profile
History
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 8/26/2006 3:22:22 PM

heres an idea, kiss my ass. I'm a nice guy and alot of people know that i'm a nice guy.. sure some people act nice to get there way, i'm generally nice.. take your rant and shove it up yoru ass.


Lol, I didn't think it was common practice for a self-proclaimed nice guy to so gently allude to me putting my rants where the sun don't shine so often. Not feeling too nice today?
 Etownboy79
Joined: 8/3/2006
Msg: 82
view profile
History
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 8/26/2006 4:07:02 PM
Fireknight:


Free your mind


I love that song. lol j/k


Further the reason so many quote them is it because it fits with their individual needs and beliefs not neccesarily the reality of the active discussion.


I agree that some posts, even mine, will not neccessarily apply to their intended readers. I think that all we can do while participating in a thread discussion is assume that we understand where a certain poster is coming from for the most part. Then, based on those assumptions, our response follows. I agree that I don't have all the answers, just answers that work for me, and if they work for others, that's great. I think we all know that everything one person says does not always apply to the next person, and as humans most of us have the ability to dissect certain posts to gain what we want out of them. This kind of just goes wihthout saying.


Person A is just that Person A you are attributing characteristics to Person A without any information to validate them.


I'm not saying I know Person A's life story and everything about his/her roots that makes him/her what they are today. What I am saying, for the purposes of this thread, is that if Person A shows traits of being a "doormat/nice guy" and is unsuccessful with women, maybe it's those traits that are holding him back. I think this is the theme of everyone's posts on this thread.


Person C is again just Person C do you see yet how YOU are filling in information I didn't give you presuming situations?


I understand that I made assumptions, and I also questioned you if those assumptions were correct. Again though, if we all posted on these threads in a way that feared the possibility of not FULLY understanding what one is trying to convey, than we'd never really be able to talk about anything.


I have specifically NOT provided genders leaving it just Person A B C allowing you as you have to walk into the logical trap that shows why you need to stop the phsycobable.


Well, I realize that the sexes could be reversed in all of your situations. However, I don't think it was too brave of me to assume that A & B were men, while C was the woman, because this is a nice "GUY" thread, and that's what all these discussions are about.


The problem is you are untrained, you are not an expert, and you are not even following the base concepts of the situation because you are trying to fit it into your world view. Any of the Persons could be male or female or any combination there of it would not even effect the story or situation the infection as it were. However I provided several causes of that situation and left you to reason out why. Instead as seen here you have recreated your stereotype implied to make it fit your desired outcome.


Ya, I see what you're saying. I am no expert, I admit that freely. I admit that I have to relate my own experiences to a thread I post in retort, but we all have to, since we need to try and put ourselves in one posters' proverbial shoes if we are to reply to that poster.


I've not discussed my view about women relationships at all. :)


Well, you did say "Well and truly said, Iwarrior" in response to his first post. I'm sure you realize that this strongly implies your concurrence with what he said as it relates to your life situation. In fact, you knew that.
 Etownboy79
Joined: 8/3/2006
Msg: 83
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The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 8/26/2006 4:10:01 PM
Fireknight:
this post just copied itself from last one...nvm this one
 Fairwayman
Joined: 7/8/2006
Msg: 84
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The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 8/26/2006 4:51:29 PM
hmmmm not sure what to think about this thread... I consider myself to be a "nice guy" which to me means the following:

Treating the woman I am dating with respect, courtesy and honesty. SOOO many of the profiles that I read tell a woeful tale of how men have not treated them with these two simple things. Being a "nice guy" doesn't mean that you let someone walk all over your emotions, and it also doesn't mean that I'm insecure. It means that in general, I treat women with the things that they seem to be complaining is lacking in their past relationships- respect, courtesy and honesty. I don't think that these things would be classified as (to name a few of the adjectives in the original post)- CLINGY (LOL), DESPERATE, INSECURE, SPINELESS, "HELPERS" and "going after "HARD LUCK CASES"

Wow Wickedzoot.. this is a harsh and mislabelled article you found... dont worry, I know you werent the author (yay)

I am not a clingy person, hardly desperate, can't totally say I'm 100% "insecure-free"- after all who honestly isnt insecure about some things in their lives. I think that to a certain extent, we ALL have to some level, a fear of rejection (this manifests itself in certain ways depending on the individual- could come out as shyness, arrogance and "putting up a wall". I dont believe that TRUE "Nice Guys" are "spineless" either- I will NEVER let a woman knowlingly take advantage of me physically, emotionally or financially. I had an EX-fiancee that TRIED this and I was very quick to show her the door (did it hurt??.. you bet, but I believe that anyone worth my heart would never take advantage of me). As well, the notion of "Nice Guys" going after women with "neuroses, problems, and personality disorders, because Nice Guys are "helpers", is false I believe. As a self-proclaimed "Nice Guy", I stay away from such potential romantic disasters, and have enough sense to know that a good relationship doesnt involve coming to the repeated rescue of such people.

I think that whoever wrote this article may have mislabelled the term NICE GUY with the more appropriate term EMOTIONAL WIMP (tm).. I think men that are EW's display the characteristics of the original post WRONGLY misapprpriated to REAL "Nice Guys".

Sooooooo any women out there actually want a REAL nice guy??

 Etownboy79
Joined: 8/3/2006
Msg: 85
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The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 8/26/2006 11:07:56 PM
I think that whoever wrote this article may have mislabelled the term NICE GUY with the more appropriate term EMOTIONAL WIMP (tm).. I think men that are EW's display the characteristics of the original post WRONGLY misapprpriated to REAL "Nice Guys".


Yes, yes....that's the point we've all been discussing. What you have to realize is that if you are all the things you say you are Fairwayman, than this post wasn't aimed at you. It is aimed at the ones who do show those emotional traits and behaviours. The reason you're confused is because someone who actually acts the way Wickedzoot describes, is not actually going to call themselves an "EMOTIONAL WIMP", right? Guess what they so actually call themselves....just a "nice guy". So this thread is aimed at people who call themselves nice guys BUT act in the way that is insecure, wimpy, and "CLINGY (LOL), DESPERATE, INSECURE, SPINELESS, "HELPERS"......"DOORMATS".

You people have to start realizing this and stop getting offended because the "DOORMATS" have called themselves the same thing you call yourself, and this thread is only intended for those "doormats".
 Etownboy79
Joined: 8/3/2006
Msg: 86
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The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 8/26/2006 11:14:12 PM
The article sounds like it was written as a way for women to pyschologically console themselves as to why they are attracted to men who treat them like crap. The problem isnt "nice" guys...........its the women who find this trait unattractive.


So are you going to try to change the minds of all the women in the world? Or are you gonna give them what they want for a little while, until you've developed a strong enough relationship with her to "be yourself" without any fear of her not being attracted to you since she already is? The easy way is obviously the latter, and it will make you and your lucky companion alot happier in the end.
 Etownboy79
Joined: 8/3/2006
Msg: 87
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Posted: 8/26/2006 11:24:55 PM

THIS WAS obviously written by a woman.


And whom exactly are you trying to attract? If you're answer is a "woman", well maybe you should listen to her, because she does speak for the majority of women out there. Yes, she does, don't argue with me lol.
 Fairwayman
Joined: 7/8/2006
Msg: 88
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Posted: 8/26/2006 11:35:37 PM
Hey etownboy

I wasn't offended by this thread at all, I was just giving my opinion...

Thanks!
 Etownboy79
Joined: 8/3/2006
Msg: 89
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Posted: 8/27/2006 12:01:52 AM

I wasn't offended by this thread at all, I was just giving my opinion...


Oh, my bad sorry. Unfortunately alot of people on this thread do get offended that way.
 TheBigID
Joined: 8/7/2006
Msg: 90
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Posted: 8/27/2006 12:14:07 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but is the OP from Heartless ****es International?

That's actually a fun site.
 totallove
Joined: 7/30/2006
Msg: 91
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 8/27/2006 12:55:26 AM
That was a long book,Nice guys, well I havn't never met one, so I am still wondering what it would be like to be treated like a person. Of course I don't think I would want someone overly
nice, always in my face, and always asking what he should do.
I think there is a difference in nicey nice and respect. And finding a respectful man is hard to find also.
I also think that men prefer nice women, more so than women preferring nice men. Every man
that is married says oh she is just the sweetest woman. She is great enough for them to marry! Usually someone that is always doing you good needs, wants and expects something in return. I recall, "oh you don't have to do that" nice guy "no really I insist", than when it is over, "you owe me , look what I did for you" .
But than what would we have, our search would be over if we did not look for that wonderful person where we want to cherish each other forever?
 Etownboy79
Joined: 8/3/2006
Msg: 92
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The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 8/27/2006 2:07:32 AM
Iwarrior:


I took a public speaking class in college. Believe me, most people would get nervous up there. It's been said that people are more afraid of public speaking than of skydiving.


Ya, actually after I saw you write that I asked some people if that was a fear they had as well, and you were right, at least half said yes. I was surprised about that, because everyone in my high school classes seemed so confident when making class presentation and such, and I thought I was the only one who wanted to kill myself rather than be laughed at by the rest of my peers. Thanks for the eye-opener. I've since gotten alot better with public speaking and I don't find it unbearably intimidating anymore thank god.


I'll agree in part. But just because people feel less than doesn't mean they really are. Others may make them feel that way.


Ya that's true. It does take a certain amount of self-confidence though, to realize where other people are illegitimately making you feel the way you do. Also, it's important to assert how you feel about that to those people. I don't think the topic of this discussion (a genuine doormat) would be likely to do this though.


My poor luck with women has to do with a lot of things. I don't think it's because I'm "too nice". I don't think my behaviour has anything to do with it.


Ya, I guess I'm kind of in the same boat, but me and you have an advantage over the less self-assured types of this world. That advantage is that I think we know what we need to work on to get our "luck" up. The "doormats" won't know, because their ego can't handle self-analysis in anything but a reassuring way, so they lie to themselves about their faults and decide that their faults are actually justifiable.


I don't see how my headline shows that I'm trying too hard though. I just came up with it off the top of my head. I thought it was funny. Most of the people who have reviewed my profile here liked my profile. You're the first person to say those things about my profile.


Maybe I was wrong, I was probably overly sensitive to the issue of discussion, and was looking for something that wasn't necessarily there. I will say though, that anyone can say anything two ways. You could say "your headline" in a wimpy, unsure and whiny voice. Try it. See what I mean? On the flipside, you could say "your headline" in a commanding, playful or confident tone and the results would be reciprocal from the previous. I guess you could argue the same about my headliner too, though. Just food for thought I guess.


I really only came here to see if I was dateable. And many women seem to think so.


Well, I am glad you're getting the answer that is becoming more and more apparent to me as I read your posts. Good luck with the one in RL, wherever that is lol. Is it Raleigh, NC? I would only know that because of those **stard Carolina Hurricanes that took my Stanley Cup away from me!!!!!!!!!


I can be very self-conscious at times. I worry about how I look a lot. I took at least 50 pics before I came up with some that I liked, and even I'm not totally happy with those.


Lol, me too.


Thing is, I have my own tastes. I don't usually go for the girls that every guy sees as a ten. There are girls that are tens in my eyes, but might not be in others eyes.

What is a ten anyway? I don't even see what the big deal is about supermodels. I'm not the kind of guy that has posters of hot chicks on his wall and fantasizes about being with them. I prefer real women.


I know what you're saying. Let's just say there are girls who 98% of the male population would agree that they are pretty "hawt". Examples: Jessica Alba, Britney Spears (before that **stard K-Fed planted his rotten seeds lol), Angelina Jolie (only in tombraider) etc.
And there are also girls I find more attractive than the previous that alot of people don't Examples: Rachel Leigh Cook, Posh Spice (Ya ya, I know that was years ago, but one day I tell you, one day she will be mine lol), Jessica Biel........aaawwwwwrrggghh, Jessica.....brb I have to go to the bathroom LOL!


Another thing. I see good-looking girls a lot. But I really don't even feel like going up to them. I look at them and that's that. It's not only that a lot of them seem to not want to be bothered, but it's also that I just don't always feel like talking to people. And I know what it's like to have people bug you when you don't feel like talking. It happens to me a lot. :) So much so, that I wore headphones while on the bus for years because somebody wanted to rant my ear off. I'm not anti-social.


Well, if you want to go up to them, that is the advantage of being male, you get to if you want and there is nothing she can physically do to you about it (hopefully lol). This is the reason I believe that it is usually fair for the male to be viewed as the pursuer to women in society, and most women want it that way too. It would take alot more courage for women if the tables were turned and we expected them to approach us, since if we became annoyed enough about girls always coming up to us and hitting on us, we could be a real and serious physical threat, as I'm sure some women wish they could just knock out some of the freaks that hit on them all the time. So in the end, most girls will just ignore you if they are not interested, and rarely will they give you some harsh words, but that's the worst that can happen.


But do you really think that's the case though? I mean, I usually look at the girls pic first. I don't even pay attention to the headlines.


The lucky part about being male is that females are alot less judgemental about looks than men are. It isn't too rare to see a real weird looking ugly dude going out with a "babe", you know, one of those couples you see and you scratch your head wondering how he did it. He has the right attitude, or may be being used but the latter is less common. The reverse isn't true, because you will almost never find a guy that is successful with women trying to date an Ugly Betty, no matter how good of a personality she has. So I think females would probably read your profile to see what you're about before making a decision as to their approval about you. This works really good in my favor since I'm a total freakshow on the outside, all I have to do is work on my "personality" lol j/k.


Again, I think you're putting too much thought into it. I don't feel I should have to worry about my body language or anything like that.


Good, if you don't worry about your body language than you are probably already ahead of the game.


Romantic attraction is something I don't think you should tip-toe around. Sex is something that should take time. Again, I'm not dating to get laid. After I have known her for a while, and I like her a lot, then yes, at some point I'd like to sleep with her. I'll make it known in a subtle way. I'm not going to be like, "Hey, I know you want this, so let's screw."


Ya, okay, I'm starting to see where the misunderstandings are coming from. When I say things like "don't be shy about the issue of sexuality etc" I mean dating in general. I'm not talking about being able to dirty talk her a half hour after you've met. I mean sexuality as in the common interest to explore a dating relationship with one another, that's something that no one should be shy about, but alot are for fear of rejection. I believe this is something you can tell a girl you've recently met, but not with words. I mean body language, hidden meanings etc. For instance, if I meet a girl at a pub or something, and I have talked to her and her friends for 5 mins or so and would like to possibly get to know her more but I can't be sitting with her and her friends for much longer because that would be "linger-ish", I would say something like: When you girls get a chance, come over to my table and meet some of my friends, and maybe we can talk some more too. At that point, if she comes, she is now at MY table, and I don't have to worry about seeming like a lingerer, so I can then get to know her better and maybe ask for her number and the rest of the story tells itself. I think this to be an example of a man who isn't afraid about sexuality. Does that make sense?


So upon first contact, you should make it known that you want to sleep with her? Won't she think that you're looking for a f*ckbuddy?


When I said that if you make it clear to a woman that you would like to "obstain" from sex at the beginning of any relationship, that means you don't want to have sex right away. Did you misunderstand me? Or do I misunderstand you? If you make this clear to a woman, she will not doubt herself or you in the ways I mentioned about the issue of having sex, and she'll probably appreciate your honesty.



I think I just need to put myself out there more, but I'm not sure how to do it exactly. Online's not cutting it.


I hear ya, but I wish that they could have a "block" button in real life too, lol. Then I wouldn't have to talk to creepy chics the way I don't online. I guess there's good and bad for both worlds.

Good Luck with whatever you decide to do, Iwarrior.

Adam
 Etownboy79
Joined: 8/3/2006
Msg: 93
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Posted: 8/27/2006 2:38:17 AM
I think I just need to put myself out there more, but I'm not sure how to do it exactly. Online's not cutting it.


Maybe try going to places that the types of women you desire would frequent. If you want a deep philosophical type, one that has lots of world experience, than maybe you would go to the trendy coffee shops around town. If you want a physical girl that likes the outdoors and sports and stuff, try a gym. A "bigger" girl? Go to a weight clinic. See what I mean?

After you figure that out, just know that you should approach one you're interested in, and do it without hesitation. There is a rule out there that I have a tough time doing but I can see the truth behind it. If you see a girl you find attractive, you should be speaking to her within 3 seconds. That's the 3 second rule (mysterymethod.com). Even if you don't know what to say, and all you can think of is "Hi, how's it goin?", that's better than sitting there and thinking about it until you convince yourself why you shouldn't approach, or you lose your chance. The website goes more into detail about the theory on this for sure. Do this enough, and you'll start getting some "canned" opening lines that work, and the conversation will flow after that. I think the better a guy gets at the approach than the better success he will have and therefore the better his approaches will become etc. I guess it's hardest when you first start, cause I get nervous about the approach too, but it gets a little easier every time.

Well, that would just be my humble advice on a good way to "put yourself out there".
 thegreatrockyhill
Joined: 12/26/2005
Msg: 94
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 8/27/2006 10:51:35 AM
Thanks Adam for the discussion. And I apologize for my misunderstandings. I will think about what you said.
 yankeeinnc
Joined: 8/2/2006
Msg: 95
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 8/28/2006 3:39:12 AM
See totallove, this is the problem. Women think all men fall in two categories, a wimp ass nice guy or a bad boy. We need a name (I,m really leaving myself open for this one) for people like me that think all women as well as humans and most animals ar beautiful and deserve respect. I am such that I only get pleasure out of pleasing others, or shall I say the utimate happiness type pleasure, and I don't only mean physical. Women don't know what the want. They want a bad ass and then when they get abused they want to whine and complain because most bad asses are **sholes as well. I have a theory that women who always go for the bad ass get sexually frustrated because the badass is inconsiderate and gets his and doesn't care about yours. This leaves women sol confused, they can't think clearly enough to know what the heck they really want - maybe thay just want drama which can also be found with a proverbial nice guy, but you may never find that out. My past would blow your mind, but I am a NICE GUY.
 khris20m2
Joined: 8/25/2004
Msg: 96
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 8/28/2006 10:39:36 PM
ok then she is full of it i call myself a "nice guy" cause hey i am i ain't over the top and sniveling and i know i can have other women no prob. so why is it that women cheat so damn much then thats what i can't figure that out. if you do give a woman freedom to do what she wants and have her own life that means that you are asking for this or what i dunno seems thats what you all think. well i for one am a nice guy and i won't change no matter how many times i get the wool pulled over my eyes. and for another thing no one on this dang site can talk bad about one another. i mean duh we are all on the friggin internet looking for someone.(well not me currently) but you know what i mean
 slimguy1952
Joined: 7/23/2006
Msg: 97
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 9/1/2006 12:03:59 PM
Well I think its time for my 2 cents worth now.I have read all the posts and read the article that WickedZoot posted about the "infamous nice guy"
I consider myself to be a nice guy and I resent any attempt to label me as a participant in this overly generalized composition.
Why don't we put it another way. I think there are two kinds of people on this planet. The "givers" and the "takers" If you happen to be a member of the givers fraternity, that does not automatically define you as the person that this paganistisc article describes.
Yes, "nice guys" do exibit many of the traits listed in this "article". But I have news for you the ***holes exibit many of these traits as well.
So I think it all boils down to common sense. When a woman chooses a man as a partner, hopefully she will use some.
I have been around a bit and seen a few things in my time.And I have come to the conclusion that we are all individuals. Similar in many ways yes, but oh so different in many others.Any woman who is willing to steriotype men into these predetermined categories, will never be content.
You have to look at the individual person, and then make your generalizations. To try and label a particular group of people in such a common way is completely ludicrous.
So ladies in your search for the "right guy" keep my comments in mind. Because if you percieve the fore listed article to be an accurate description of a "nice guy " you are going to miss out on a lot of pleasureable experiences.
 gildersleeve
Joined: 6/26/2005
Msg: 98
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 9/1/2006 2:38:59 PM
I think we're talking about two types of people here...nice guys and wimps.
A wimp is insecure, clingy, needy and thinks whatever woman he's with should want to spend every waking moment with him. He also tends to move too fast and may be carrying around a lot of excess baggage from past relationships. His insecurity is usually evident right from the start...a warning sign to move away.
A nice guy is secure with himself and his life and shows it in the way he speaks and presents himself. He knows how to treat a woman like a lady, with dignity and respect. He accepts her for who she is and doesn't try to change her (or want to). He doesn't sweat the small stuff and tries to always take her feelings into consideration...and while we all have baggage that we've picked up along the way (it's called life), he's learned to retain only the stuff he can use (or has learned from) and locked the rest away in a closet. He also knows that the lady has a life away from him and is secure in giving her all the space she needs and wants...and if it was meant to happen, it will happen.
At least, that's the way I see it!
 Etownboy79
Joined: 8/3/2006
Msg: 99
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Posted: 9/1/2006 5:32:45 PM

Well I think its time for my 2 cents worth now.I have read all the posts and read the article that WickedZoot posted about the "infamous nice guy"


I don't think you did. If you had, you would've realized that the idea behind this thread is to label a certain brand of "nice guy". This brand of "nice guy" probably does not apply to you, since you seem to be fairly assertive and mild-mannered. The brand of "nice guy" we are talking about is the spineless, approval-seeking, needy type that you don't appear to be.

I don't believe you can simply categorize people as either "givers" or "takers", not without realizing that there must be many sub-categories within each. Besides, the "needy, approval-seeking nice guy" would be classified as a "giver" but his true intentions behind his thoughtfulness are selfish, therefore he is a "taker" at the core. I think this shows that your generalization is an unsatisfactory representation of either, because if one type of person can fall into both categories often, than those categories don't accurately label.
 slimguy1952
Joined: 7/23/2006
Msg: 100
The infamous NICE GUY rant
Posted: 9/1/2006 5:43:00 PM
Geez etownboy79 ,lighten up !
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