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 tick tock
Joined: 7/30/2006
Msg: 310
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My beef about PART TIME dads who identify as SINGLE dadsPage 19 of 18    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18)
I can't believe how childish and petty this thread is. Too funny!
Joined: 3/13/2006
Msg: 313
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My beef about PART TIME dads who identify as SINGLE dads
Posted: 5/5/2008 3:49:26 PM
"I am a full-time dad...three year old son and a one year old daughter.....when I am not working I am home with my kids. I know it sounds odd a 22 year old with his kids all the time but it is true and it is very difficult to find time to do anything without my children....any male who see's his kids everyother weekend and calls himself a SINGLE FATHER is just fooling himself.

Its a long story why I have my children but I will tell everyone that I would never trade any moment (good or bad) I spend with them. In my oppinion your not a single DAD unless you have primary custody or a dead beat mother (in my case right now).

Its a sad thing to think about or even talk about but I only hope that one day I find someone that will be willing and wanting to spend her life with me and my children."

ellioc2004 your situation blows and I feel for you bub, but Calling me a part time dad would get you a swift kick in the huevos and maybe a headbutt thrown in lol. While I cannot speak for all, I will speak for myself. I have my daughter every weekend and most of the summer. Am I still labeled by you a part time dad? So in other words I stop being a father when my daughter leaves my home?

If you like it or not I AM a single father I spend as much time as possible with my daughter, more then what is written on the divorce decree "the ex goes on her little trips with her gf" I attend PTA meetings, I bake brownies, I help with homework, I take her to the hospital when she is sick "ex will not take her to the hospital", and a myrad of other things that make a parent a parent. But according to you if I dont have a piece of paper that says primary custody I am a nobody just basicly an overglorified nanny so that the ex can go out. Thanks bub for setting mens parental rights back 2 generations.
Joined: 12/4/2007
Msg: 330
My beef about PART TIME dads who identify as SINGLE dads
Posted: 5/15/2008 9:43:01 PM
Alrighty .. some of these posts are getting nasty.

Isn't the definition of a single dad simply a dad thats single....full time or part time..... thats the definition isn't it.

A buddy of mine actually left his wife because of her temper and control issues. Ive seen it personally... broken plates... slashed furniture... yelling .. cutting up the father in front of the children..... horrible environment for kids. She couldn't see past her petty reason for her anger and see the damage she was causing. If you can't control your temper the kids loose ... all the time ...regardless of the reason..bottom line...

Personally i dont care if he was banging her sister or the babysiter.. (he wasn't.. she was just parinoid) absolutely nothing gives her the right to do that to the kids. Complete idiot.

Now despite all this they now both have joint custody... Shes proffesionally employed and a good co-providor for the kids but emotionally toxic. He wishes he could have full custody but until she fully self destructs ... he doesnt have a chance.

He takes the kids to daycare and picks them up. Buys their clothes and toys.. takes them out socializing. Has them stay over every other week.

Now.... is he not a single dad.
Joined: 8/1/2008
Msg: 337
My beef about PART TIME dads who identify as SINGLE dads
Posted: 8/12/2008 8:29:38 AM
I have more rescpect now then i ever have for moms period.....Im a full time dad..Ive had them fulltime for a year and half now...havnt heard or seen there mother in a year,this is fine with me ,but very hard on my kids...specially my doughtor who is 9 As far as being a fulltime parent..we defintly stay buzy...Im fortunate that im self employed and can make my own schedule...does make things a little easier...Plus thank god school started...yee haw....I never thought id end up raising my kids myself...but hear i am...Id like to mention also that my doughtor has cancer....was diagnosed at age 2 with a brain tumor...shes been thru it all....kemo radiation...and plenty of visits to childrens hospital....they say theres no remmission for her type of cancer,but shes proving them wrong...she doing great and just started the third grade...does great and made the honor role last year.....The cancer has left her slightly handicaped on her left side...but it dosnt stop her one bit....Wow im really rambling on...sorry...I acually got on here to meet women, not ramble on in these I guess what im really trying to say is that parenting is tuff whether your a man or women.....fulltime or part time...married or far as the dead beat dads and moms out suck........................For The rest of you......take care ........did i metion school started ,,,,,Yee Haww..............
 tick tock
Joined: 7/30/2006
Msg: 341
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My beef about PART TIME dads who identify as SINGLE dads
Posted: 8/16/2008 5:00:41 AM
Isn't time to end this pity party? Lol!

Joined: 7/10/2008
Msg: 344
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My beef about PART TIME dads who identify as SINGLE dads
Posted: 8/16/2008 2:29:27 PM
Single mom's have the hardest time due to challenges unique to being a mother in this society.

you try fighting the leagal system when you are a man and the mother does not want you to have contact with your childreen. it is very hard and costly and some people mothers will play the system so that the farther child bond is broken. this then means that you get to see your child for two hours with someone watching you.

i do not tink that men a put in a priveliged position and i do not aprove for any parent being a part time parent. if you have childreen then should be a 50/50 split. you have a responsablity to your childreen for life not just for christmass.
Joined: 7/10/2008
Msg: 345
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My beef about PART TIME dads who identify as SINGLE dads
Posted: 8/16/2008 2:42:38 PM
I think it would be super cool if a man was willing to join a support group.

i am involve with running a support group that mainly men come to that are gowing through the pain of seperation and devorce. and very person ing that group is conserned about their childreen. it is called families need fathers.
Joined: 7/10/2008
Msg: 346
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My beef about PART TIME dads who identify as SINGLE dads
Posted: 8/16/2008 2:43:53 PM
sorry i forgot to say this group is uk wide and has been running since 1979
Joined: 7/15/2008
Msg: 349
My beef about PART TIME dads who identify as SINGLE dads
Posted: 8/16/2008 3:44:28 PM

I was at my single mom's group today

There's your first mistake. Most single parents are doing it without the help of wanna be mothers sitting around drinking tea, having a men bashing party.. BTW hope you kids are at school as you attend these stupid meetings

and we all had a beef about single dad's who lament on the challenges of single parenting, when in reality some only contribute some cash and/or have the kids some of the time.

Could you provide an example for us. Because my babies mother does NOTHING with out my help. My child is covered under my medical insurance and pharmacy benefits, therefore I choose what doctor she sees, what hospital she goes too, I pay for her school clothing, I attend every parent/teacher meeting. Why I'm out busting my ass, supporting my daughter, her mother stays home, collects money from the state for being a full time student at college. Yet I will never critize her, because college is very important and I give her kudos for doing it. But she has full custody, but I'm just as important in my daughters life as she is to mine, and I find your thread obtuse, full of ingroance, lacking evidence to any reasonable measure.
Joined: 8/8/2008
Msg: 354
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My beef about PART TIME dads who identify as SINGLE dads
Posted: 8/18/2008 5:40:37 PM
I consider myself a single dad. I'm a dad, and i'm i think the phrase single dad fits.

I have my son on weekends fri-sun. I pay entirely for his school and i pay his mother child support. I would love to have my son full time and have told his mother that he could come live with me and she could come get him on weekends. This way she could focus on school or whatever she wants to do without having my son in the way. That and the fact that she drops him off at school at 8 in the morning and picks him up at 5pm and 3 days of the week she has night classes where my mom ends up watching him from 6-10.
She doesn't want to give him up. She thinks it would make her look like a bad mother. I don't want to take him away from her because I think its best that both parents have an active role in the childs life..... so....for now i guess i'm a part time dad, but that change the fact that i'm a single dad.

Anyone who thinks that because a father doesn't have his child full time cares or loves their child less than someone who does have them full time is shallow and naive.

There are plenty of single dads who have hardly any social life because they give up their weekends to be with their kids. Myself included.

I know plenty of single moms who say the whole reason they want to have the kids during the week is so they could have their weekends free to go out and party, and collect child support.

But i'm not on here calling all "full time moms" gold digging sluts because i know to think that would be judgemental and untrue in most cases.
Joined: 12/16/2008
Msg: 357
My beef about PART TIME dads who identify as SINGLE dads
Posted: 3/27/2009 10:41:07 AM

You poisonous witch to label all 'part time' fathers as lazy and uncontributing...

You shouldn't worry......the the poor little girls went home because she did not have enough...or anyone to support her!

Perhaps her knitting circle who are all of the same ilk all support her premise...but she did seem to lack support here?

And she was unable to articulate a decent arguement so she left to the provincial page...and now seems silent?

But feel free to jump in if she ever returns and spouts more trash or foolish illogical comments?
Joined: 12/16/2008
Msg: 361
My beef about PART TIME dads who identify as SINGLE dads
Posted: 3/28/2009 12:20:05 PM

I'm a father first. I have two boys that are everything to me. they live with me most of the time. I feel that as a single parent my first priority is their protection.

Your profile states one thing? And your post?

I am a full time dad. No part time every other weekend crap here.

So when you talk about the differences you might also like to consider the single parents who sit on the sidelines and perhaps wish they were allowed or able to be more involved and not the part time weekend only parent.

But that's not all you get to date or see the lady or man in your life but maybe once every other weekend if the other parent doesn't give you some lame excuse for not being able to deal with the kids that weekend (again) !!!

So you dont know any babysitters?

I hope I helped you with your quest to educate the moaning part timers. Like you I have no patience for the sad stories of the so called single parent that only works the weekend shift. too easy!!!

It has been over 6yrs now and it has been very rewarding and I would never have it any other way.

So what could be worse. the moaning custodial parent or the moaning ncp? I have no patience for custodial parents who sit and talk how difficult it is being a custodial parent. I make or made a choice to be the custodial parent and in fact spend probably double the amount of time with my children than you do. But that was a choice as I wanted to see them achieve or have opportunities based on education and athletic abilities.

But you are right the role of full time custodial parent is not for everyone. The cooking and laundry not just for yourself but for everyone is a little more difficult than the part time parent. But then it could also be ex could still be part of the household and then I really would be unhappy and miserable.

But why do you feel the need to suggest you are so much better?
Joined: 12/16/2008
Msg: 365
My beef about PART TIME dads who identify as SINGLE dads
Posted: 3/28/2009 2:33:38 PM
You should understand something.

I have 2 children. One is here basically full time...((this year away 9 nights...last year about 3 nights ))..and the other about 75%. I understand getting up in the middle of the night when they are sick and then having to go to work without perhaps getting a full nights rest. I understand getting up and making the lunches and getting them up for school. Or calling now from the highway to insure they are off for school on time. I understand being the one to drive them to their after school activities. Last summer I probably did about 12,000km's for soccer. And I understand the pain or anguish when they look out and do not see both parents so we simply adjust and insure the time we do have is that much better.

I also understand and have gone through the children being upset when they talk or ask why their mother has at times seemed more interested in her life than spending time with them. And rather than get upset about it I treasure the added experience and time we can share together as an abbreviated family of 3.

I sit in the drivers seat and with the children as we determine the direction that we are choosing to go. I still find offensive any time a custodial parent denigrates or marginalize the contribution of a ncp. Not everyone is capable or suitable to be the parent our children requires from us. I suggest any contribution they have to offer is better than nothing. Yet I also envy the custodial parent who never see's their perhaps that may make things easier....but that would just be for me?

At times in the past i was resentful when my ex would take only one child at a time but i realized that was what was best and each child spent quality time with opposed to more stressful or angry environment when they were both together for a few days or an evening.

then complain to anyone with an ear that RAISING children is tough,

I suggest being a single father raising children is easy. What is hard is raising your children and trying to maintain a strong healthy marriage in today's society!

And woman perhaps make it easy for single fathers with custody to succeed. LOL....after all woman have such low expectation of our ability we cannot help but succeed.

But any custodial parent when faced with an ex who does not live up to their expectation.......should take a pill and and realize the time they spend with their children can never be measured. And the ones who are not involved will never make up that time. It take 2 to tango and create our children and be it one or be it two participating or active the end of the day whining or crying about what they do or do not do compared to only

Joined: 12/16/2008
Msg: 369
My beef about PART TIME dads who identify as SINGLE dads
Posted: 5/8/2009 3:07:23 PM
1. I would love to join a support group that was for single parents. Not a group that was labeled single mom's support group.

2. The supports that are in place for me as single parent who happens to be a father taking care of his kids 24/7 (and mother that is supposed to see her kids every other weekend and see's them about once for about two hours every six months ) are very few.

3. As a single father I have been treated with more ignorance by so many women its truly astonishing.....from how to take care of my kids when they have a cold, to how to discipline my kids, to how much time I should spend with my kids, and how to keep my house clean or what I should feed my kids for supper.

And I would assume there are more than a few woman who have men give them loads of advice about raising their children. Good for you in that you are another illustration that men are capable of raising children...but...

4. The courts however favorable to my situation in rewarding full child support. Denied my request for spousal support even though I had been a stay at home dad the previous ten years and gave up a career as a bank manager.

So there may be a few mothers...woman who I have made can we say....inflammatory statements about in respect to not being equally finacially responsible...

Spousal support! You got to be kidding me. I paid it not because I like it...not because I thought it was fair....but because it was not worth the battle and case law suggested I might be held liable anyways...

But your profile..........age 39......less the suggested 10 years you were a stay at home....would put you at 29....which suggests 10 years of post high school? less 4yrs of University.....that leaves us with 6yrs...of a career.

But that does not or does it include the almost 3yrs since your marriage fell apart?

So one wonders how a rising star....someone who enters in the banking profession and within a few years is a branch manager....suddenly leaves to be a stay at home the house....and putting food on the table for the wife when she came home.


8. Single women who are raising their children 24/7 thankyou for doing a great job. However it is not as hard as it is for a man who is raising his children 24/7. AND FOR THOSE WOMEN WHO ARE ABOUT TO REPLY TO THIS BY SAYING WELCOME TO OUR WORLD...THEY ARE NOT THE SAME WORLDS. OURS IS LACKING SOCIAL AND ECONOMIC SUPPORTS FOR SINGLE MEN THAT WOMEN HAVE AND ARE ENTITLED TO, THAT MEN ARE NOT WHO ARE FULL TIME PARENTS ON THEIR OWN.

You know I have never really had any problems getting help when I needed it.

5. I have yet to receive a cent of child support in 30 months. And, surprisingly there has been no enforcement of the child support agreement by the agencies deemed responsible for such issues in my province. ( 30 months at 465/month). Hmmmm!

Join the majority of custodial fathers who do not see any cs....but the majority of custodial fathers based on the US census also work full time as well so we do not have a problem?

But again this begs the manager earning ????? stops working and wife later assessed $465 month....which for 2 children suggests less than $32,000 per year.......somewhere the economics do not seem very solid?

7. Yes, I do agree with the OP about single dads who have weekend visitations and identify themselves as a full time father. HMMM! Sounds like a guy who is shallow enough to use his kids for ulterior motives, and that is WRONG!

Shallow are parents who hide behind their children about a lack of finacial resources when they are not working or not working full time....Look at the history and the career of the complaining parent and perhaps the real reason is something more than children.

Spousal!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You should be ashamed of yourself.
Joined: 12/16/2008
Msg: 373
My beef about PART TIME dads who identify as SINGLE dads
Posted: 5/9/2009 4:22:14 PM

My girls call me Daddy. Therefore, I am a Single Dad.
Pretty much will trust their opinions before anyone else.

Well said ! DKV...because no matter where some are be it custodial or non it active or non are still the father or the Dad!

Mikey...the poster you are identifying with also has perceptions in respect to her need or requirement to support herself and her child!

My baby is why I live on less because his sweetness, our connection and I just love him so much. No amount of guilt inducing will change that I happily accept the financial support and work less hours.

Today I declined work for two reasons.
1) Baby needed a break. We worked 3 days in a row.
2) His dad was available to see him today for a short visit.

I always marvel at people who talk about others being responsible and supporting their children while at the same time they are found not working or working part time or working below their capabilities.

But as to child support....

simplified tables Ontario
31600 288 466 626 757 867 960
48000 444 725 946 1113 1253 1370

But heck...since I have never pursued a dime...perhaps there are different tables in respect to cs?

Secondly why should I be ashamed for asking for spousal support, (so are single mothers who ask for spousal support be expecting to be in great receipt of your vile and such hurting words for wanting spousal support too) I gave up a job as a bank manager to raise my kids for ten years and now I am stuck working a job that is far less financially rewarding but extremely rewarding working with intellectually challenged people in the community..... And one might conclude that also that if this about gender, then maybe we should look at your age and conclude your values are different and based on none equality issues you have. Do you have a problem paying spousal support?

I have made similar comments in respect to woman asking for or saying they were entitled to spousal support! As to individuals choices in where they work that is often a matter of personal choice but why should someone be expected to subsidize a persons decision not to work full time or to work at an occupation that is below their education or work experience? You made a choice in life in respect to where you wanted or did not want to work. Why should someone else be penalized or forced to finacially make up the difference because of your choice or for some their inability to do the job.

And this is not anything to do with gender. And in fact based on what is happening in the universities we will probably see more woman earning better jobs and the ones looking or asking for spousal more and more will be the men.

I had a great problem paying the lump sum spousal support as I felt my ex made choices because she felt more emotional rewarding reinforcement working with animals than she did working in her field. And once i started earning more than she did she felt it was her right to support her and be the primary breadwinner. And she also felt she was entitled once we separated that i should continue to pay or subsidize her choice of not working as hard or being delibarately underemployed.

As she is still working in a field that does not pay her as well as she was once paid...i choose not to pursue cs..

Now as to your career choice. I would never suggest someone in your field is of less value than anyone else. But people make a choice in occupations and with that comes accepting the finacial renumuration that is part of that choice. I grew up as a pk...where my father entered the ministry as a calling where there was never a great deal of money. If he needed extra he would and did drive a cab...drove a truck..or a number of other extra jobs to make up what was lacking in his chosen profession.

Hey look...age 49..single primary custodial parent to 2 children..i know i have made more than a few mistakes in life.

But I also know I have worked and earned everything that is in my house. I have never whined and complained about why I am unable to afford something as long ago I was taught that we are architects of our own fortune or misfortune. I did require help for 6 months in the form of partial subsidized before and after school care simply because the bank accounts were emptied by my ex. But once things were cleared up....I was happy to be paying for my own children and sometimes going without on my own requirements.

And maybe you should get life instead of stalking people on the forums looking to show how intelligent you are. Posting intelligent thoughts is one thing, however, slamming people based on assumptions you make yourself on open forums....

I have no problem making apologies to people if I made mistakes in my conclusions.

But stalking???? please. You made a post in single parents and I responded in a manner that was critical of your sense of entitlement to finacial support.

as to your complaint about a lack of services for men in comparison to are correct..And the differences in family court for men and woman...

I made choices in life...and I have no problems with the results...just do not ask me to like hearing or being supportive of people who look for others to finacially compensate them for their choices in life. Just review and consider the education or lack of education of many of the single parents and one has to ask why would a responsible adult bring children into this world when they are not even capable of providing a home for themselves. I suggest the answer is they look for someone else to do the providing and we then ask where is the line between those who are looking for a free meal ticket..and those who really need short term assistance?
Joined: 5/4/2009
Msg: 374
My beef about PART TIME dads who identify as SINGLE dads
Posted: 5/13/2009 2:44:05 PM
I want to post in this thread just to get a reply from Tealwood. Love it!

Do me next! Do me next!

Single father, primary residency of two children (66.6%), she pays no child support, I pay $1300 a month in spousal support. wheeeee!

The "single father" tag seems to still be a new one to a lot of people. Most people always refer to the mother as the single parent and to the guy as the divorced guy who has kids; as if to imply they aren't fathers.
Joined: 12/16/2008
Msg: 377
My beef about PART TIME dads who identify as SINGLE dads
Posted: 5/13/2009 6:05:29 PM

Single father, primary residency of two children (66.6%), she pays no child support, I pay $1300 a month in spousal support. wheeeee!

The "single father" tag seems to still be a new one to a lot of people. Most people always refer to the mother as the single parent and to the guy as the divorced guy who has kids; as if to imply they aren't fathers.

That's calling paying for the sugar you got!

Or is it called justice?

Despite having the children I went the lump sum so I would not have the constant reminder each and every month.

But you are part of the fastest growing segment of society today. Stand proud! Custodial father and over 50% of us do not see child support!

But that $1,300 does seem steep and very unfair! It could be worse......she might still be living with you?
Joined: 5/4/2009
Msg: 378
My beef about PART TIME dads who identify as SINGLE dads
Posted: 5/14/2009 9:06:25 AM

But that $1,300 does seem steep and very unfair! It could be worse......she might still be living with you?

Indeed my good man, indeed. She has requested an increase to $2500.oo/month in the courts now, but we'll see how that goes. I tried the lump sum amount, but we couldn't agree on a number of course.

As for paying for the sugar I got....... wouldn't that make her a prostitute???
Joined: 7/7/2005
Msg: 381
view profile
My beef about PART TIME dads who identify as SINGLE dads
Posted: 5/14/2009 11:26:32 AM

If you have the child over 50% of the time why do either of you have to pay child support?

I have my kids 50% of the time at least. While the child support is very reasonable as my ex does not view C/S as an additional income but rather assistance in providing for the kids, why I pay it in this instance is because of this.

Their mom works in a factory that provides good health benefits worthy of keeping the kids on her plan as opposed to mine. I figure C/S helps with covering half of the premiums that come out of her check.

Their mom pays the school lunches. Assistance with that.

Since both of my children are daughters, I defer to their mom's taste in clothing. She's a terrible shopper in that she overspends on their clothes, but still they do have pretty clothes.
Joined: 11/13/2008
Msg: 384
My beef about PART TIME dads who identify as SINGLE dads
Posted: 5/14/2009 5:59:25 PM
now hear this,ive been a single dad for about6 years of three beautiful kids.i work 12 hours a day three days, i bring my kids to almost all there doctor appointments, i cook ,clean, bath go to all their baseball games,soccor,concertstake them to ammusment parks,parks,the beach.i aiso get up in the morning do my kids hair feed them and take them to school[thay missed about1 or 2 days of schoolthis year]i also carry all health insurance on them.i love my kids very much and i wouldnt change a thing.i find your letters very insulting lady. a very good dad nick
Joined: 5/7/2009
Msg: 389
My beef about PART TIME dads who identify as SINGLE dads
Posted: 5/15/2009 8:26:43 AM
My apoligies if any of this redundant... I have not read the whole thread just wanted to provide my 2 cents.

If you as a parent (mother or father) take custody for any period of time (50/50, weekends, alternating weekend ect.) of your child then you could be labeled a part time parent HOWEVER (regardless of custody sechedule) this is (and should be) a FULL TIME responsibility. In my opinion simply providing child support and not partaking in your childs life does not and should not make you a PARENT, it just means that you have parental responsibilities/obligations to financially support your child.

Just my opininon comment if you like!
Joined: 4/16/2009
Msg: 390
view profile
My beef about PART TIME dads who identify as SINGLE dads
Posted: 5/15/2009 12:12:41 PM
I think it all comes down to motive: if a guy says he's a "Single Dad" to get a date with a "Single Mom", well that's just not right. And the OP has a valid point.

On the other hand, he's letting everyone know that he's got some 1st priority obligations: his cash supply is going somewhere else, his weeknights are all about homework and PTA and bedtime stories and his weekends are probably going to be some kid's sport or activity. No matter what his motive, and no matter whether he's 24/7 or 48/2.

I have 2 daughters (17, 10) 24/7. I'm 53 years old. To be honest, I'm not sure what my motive was when I put that "Single Dad" on my profile.

The reality is that most women interested in dating a 53 year old guy are thinking about traveling, weekend getaways, adult get-togethers - they've already spent their time raising kids and want to get-a-life or have-a-life of their own. It's a red light indicator. But it's also honest - and it's fair. She deserves her time in the sun. I'm going to be running around doing kid stuff. If a woman is interested in me, she needs to know that.
Joined: 4/27/2009
Msg: 391
view profile
My beef about PART TIME dads who identify as SINGLE dads
Posted: 5/15/2009 4:28:31 PM
I am a full time dad but my little brother says that because i only have 1 child that im still not a real parent so i guess its all in how you preceeve things.
I am more than willing to join a support group Ill take all the help i can get. But unfourtanitlly they dont exist for us men if anybody knows of one in the Calhoun,Rome,Dalton area contact me.
Joined: 3/8/2009
Msg: 395
My beef about PART TIME dads who identify as SINGLE dads
Posted: 5/17/2009 11:30:32 PM
The court systems the set rules. For divorced parents.
A typically divorce . Woman loses control of her husband. Uses children to control husband. Husband loses parenting and family life with his kids. Kids and father are only part time now. Father pays child support. Single father , wants to reset his life again. Will seek new life with new kids and his ex kid( part time). By court system. You do not likeUS court system??????

You do not like sole ownership of children????

You should have thought and consider this before divorce. Do not wine and complain.

After after math of situation.

Live with it and move on. Divorced woman with kids( no longer a big demand with men......too much baggage)
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