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 Ravenstar66
Joined: 8/27/2007
Msg: 17
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Thank you for your opinion... but I fail to see how this relates to the Sumerians and the FACT that a large portion of Genesis is echoed in much older myths from Sumeria...sometimes the wording is almost verbatim. It's the difference from Sumerian to ancient Hebrew and the translations that is being discussed, and therefore their original meaning. And as our resident Hebrew Scholar has pointed out... languages don't really translate that well. I do not have much faith in the English versions of the OT. Especially since English is a mixture of Briton, Celtic, Anglo-Saxon and Germanic.. with a healthy dose of Latin thrown in. And ALL of these languages are originally pagan in origin... and not related to Semitic or Hebrew. There is a case here for there being a completely different base of thought and symbology.. and hence the difficulty in translating from one to the other. Also the Sumerian are basically the very first culture on the face of the earth (that we know of) and being a large nation influenced the peoples around it rather profoundly.

As to the "Father will chastise ...blah blah blah" It is a mindset I do not subscribe to nor do I see the logic of giving someone free-will then revoking it because it was exercised. Silly, and illogical. I agree to disagree on this subject.

Peace
 Ravenstar66
Joined: 8/27/2007
Msg: 18
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Posted: 4/7/2008 8:04:33 AM
Humans did NOT evolve from apes... there was a common ancestor.. but humans and the apes diverged long before there was anything like a chimpanzee or a gorilla. This is a fallacy that is frequently repeated ad nauseum.

Sumeria was not a hidden society.. it was the largest and oldest society in the world.. the very FIRST with any kind of written word...and there are thousands of Sumerian documents. The very first with any kind of codified law...and they existed long before the Hebrews, or the Egyptians, or the Syrians, Chaldeans, Akkadians, Canaanites, Hittites, Babylonians or any of the other cultures in the middle east (or anywhere else that we know of) They had governments, city states, they had temples, they had taxes..they had culture and art and literature and commerce (all written down for us to read)

I did not create this thread to attack the Bible, and specifically Genesis. I created it because it is apparent that a lot of Genesis comes FROM the Sumerian creation record... so I find it interesting to explore what was there, what they wrote about and how that was adopted or translated, or added to, or originated the Genesis account...Sumerian literature is the OLDEST writing we have... WAY older than any other.. and that includes the Bible account. The very first Sumerian writing dates from 2600 B.C....(Early Bronze Age.) But Hebrew documents don't show up until 900 - 600 B.C. (Iron Age) That's a difference of almost 2000 years..The Hebrews didn't even exist as a people when the Sumerian account of creation was written down... Abraham's (who came out of Sumeria) life is given a tentative date of 1441 B.C. , that's still 1800 years AFTER the first Sumerian accounts. That's a long time...and even looking at the last 1800 years a lot can change in that time. This threads purpose is to look at the Sumerian accounts and see where Genesis, at least parts of it, may have came from and what might have been lost over time and translation..

My attitude towards the Bible (especially the OT) is that is a collection of documents that expresses the "history" of the Jewish/Hebrew people.. and their mythology and their identity, but they came from somewhere and the historical and biblical record has them coming from the Sumerian city/state of Ur. They brought their beliefs with them.. therefore the roots of their history and beliefs are from Sumeria.. and progressed with their travels through the middle east (mainly Egypt and Canaan). Therefore I think it pertinent to explore the origins of their beliefs and history... and THAT is in Sumeria.

It's not an attack...it is an exploration, hopefully an open-minded one. I seek truth, not dogma. I want and insist on facts..and I search for them even if they are uncomfortable. It is not an attack to place ANY ancient writing under a microscope and really look at it objectively and compare it with others.. it's called research.

Peace
 RDtoo
Joined: 1/30/2005
Msg: 20
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Posted: 5/12/2008 11:19:07 PM
I picked up a copy of the book "History begins at Sumer" many years ago. It was fascinating. The author seemed to think the Bible was borrowing from the Sumerians as many of the accounts were similar. I have no problem with that. There was no official religion set down by God in the beginning of history. Gods chosen people began with Abraham. For all we know, Job, which supposedly is the oldest book of the Bible, could have been a Sumerian. I see what the Sumerians wrote down as more confirmation of the Bible being accurate than not. For example, there is an ancient list of Sumerian kings who lived impossibly long lives, like 800 and 900 years, which is similar to lives lived in the early chapters of Genesis. The Babyloanians surely got much info from the Sumerians, and they made up seals (pictures on clay) of the Adam and Eve story. One of these seals is at the University Museum in Philadelphia. Though the Sumerians had a different take of things than the Bible, I do not see much of a conflict in them negating what is set down in Genesis.
 Vancer
Joined: 10/29/2006
Msg: 21
Sumerians
Posted: 5/12/2008 11:34:22 PM
I don't know much about the Sumerians, so I'm hoping someone here can help me.
Does anyone know why the Sumerians used base 60 in their mathematics?
I heard we use base 10 more often, probably as a result of having 10 fingers, but where did 60 come from? Why was 60 important to them?
 Phoebus2k9
Joined: 3/15/2008
Msg: 23
Sumerians
Posted: 5/14/2008 9:09:02 AM
I really like the reading on this thread, i 2 have had alot of questions about this. There are so many things in the bible that make you scratch your head.

I think you might be reading quite alot into the simple words that are written, i would have to go by Occam's razor which would say usually the simplest answer is the correct one. Your makings this alot more confusing then it realyl should be.

Its says he created man out of our image and of our likeness, So we look like our creator correct. If this wasn't the case why would it be stated then? to confuse us and assume this or that is what is meant ? why do so many ppl try and throw the words off track. Keep it simple stupid.

There is the whole creation, the bible does it within a few statements and the sumerians go into quite some detail with it. Now the one say when we die we will return to dust. now the other one states that we were from from red clay or something along those line. So if thats true then it would make sense as to why we return to dust when we die.

So many record have been destroyed which would clear up alot of this confusion that we have today with these old passages. If you really read the bible for what it is instead of a bunch of assumptions of what you think they might have meant or what others before you assumed. Whats wrong with taking it at face value. I have alot more to say but im at work and cannot gather my thoughts properly at this moment hahaha damn

anywho have a good day
 Phoebus2k9
Joined: 3/15/2008
Msg: 24
Sumerians
Posted: 5/14/2008 12:20:06 PM
Ok if it is not the oldest then please provide some info on this ? If anything i would say the natives of the Americas would be the next oldest if not around the same era.

Alot of the teachings and painting are really close in detail with the information from the Sumerians, as well as the pyramid making and sacrifices. There is alot of info people should start cross referencing with these cultures from The Americas
 RDtoo
Joined: 1/30/2005
Msg: 25
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Posted: 5/15/2008 8:02:25 AM
Ok Andy, I am curious too. Everything I can find on the topic states that the Sumerians are the oldest known civilization, which includes writing that they left. Unless you are talking about cave paintings, which could hardly be considered a civilization, I cannot imagine who else would qualify for the title.

Ok, I just did a quick search. There was some writings found in Egypt that they say "may" predate the Sumerians.
 RDtoo
Joined: 1/30/2005
Msg: 27
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Posted: 5/15/2008 8:30:08 AM
Did some more research and found out that some symbols have been found on pottery in Harappa, part of the Indus Valley Civilzation. These symbols may have developed into the Indus language which is a dead language as it has not been able to be deciphered. These symbols may predate the Egyptian writing I mentioned earlier, but this civilzation seems to be contemporary with the Sumerians. At any rate, it is just some symbols at this point.
 Ravenstar66
Joined: 8/27/2007
Msg: 28
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Posted: 5/15/2008 8:40:34 AM
From what I have seen so far the Sumerians were the first with a written language, followed by the Egyptians and then the people of the Indus valley, then the Chinese, then the South American.. but I can't remember if it was the Olmec, or the Inca first.

I do agree that translation of Sumerian cuneiform is still tentative.. although it seemed to work well with the Epic of Gilgamesh and the creation myths.. and various other texts (mainly commercial records) there are still a lot of untranslated texts from Sumer.

Abram was from Ur, a Sumerian city-state..(Though I'm not sure if it was pure Sumerian at that time, Akkadian or Chaldean rule, though it was before the Empire of Babylon's time) when he left he was renamed Abra-ham by "god".. 'ham' must mean something significant in ancient hebrew. A new name in shamanic tradition usually denotes a spiritual death and rebirth as well as a dedication to a certain deity, I'm thinking that is what this name change meant.

When the Judeans went back (under force) to Sumeria.. it was much later and under Babylonian rule. Many people mistake this for the influence of Sumeria on the Hebrews, but the Hebrews came out of ancient Sumeria originally and only later went back.

The creation story of the Sumerians seems like a much longer and more detailed version (and it's much much older) than the account in Genesis... but the basic story is VERY similar...even to some of the phrasing, which is surprising considering that Hebrew and Sumerian have no linguistic connection that we can see.

I've been working and have not had the time lately to look into this on a deeper level, but it's on my list!

Thanks all!
 Ravenstar66
Joined: 8/27/2007
Msg: 29
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Posted: 5/15/2008 8:41:51 AM
ahhh.. the Harrapa

now there is a mystery... not sure when that is dated, or where they disappeared to.

I forgot about them.
 RDtoo
Joined: 1/30/2005
Msg: 30
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Posted: 5/15/2008 6:40:58 PM
Andy, your claim was that the Sumerians were not the oldest known civilization with writing. I have a dictionary that defines civilization as "a state of human society charcterised by a high level of intellectual, social, and cultural development". I think the Sumerians are the oldest known example. If the Indus Valley people were as advanced as the Sumerians, there is a lack of evidence. As far as your statement that we had conquered the entire globe as of 20,000 years ago, that's absurd.

On a related note, about ancient civilizations, someone told me once that there were some ideas that the Sphinx in Egypt was not built by the Egyptians, but an earlier unknown group of people. I have never came across any info on that though.
 Phoebus2k9
Joined: 3/15/2008
Msg: 31
Sumerians
Posted: 5/16/2008 7:09:55 AM
yes i have head this as well before. The arguement comes from the fact that the Sphinx is alot older then the egyptians and any other known civilized culture. So if its was here before man start building anything i would guess the pyramids were just as old.

No one is saying your full of shlt but if your going to say that then give some kinda of point of refer for us to look at or something. Like more ppl on here thats what they will be looking for when statements like that are made on here.

Has anybody looked into the Ancient Americas ? I been reading a book about some of the writings and history over there and this person has done quite alot of research. its quite interesting to read how similar their stories and pictures of the all seeing eye looks the same.
 unique14yu
Joined: 7/8/2008
Msg: 32
Sumerians
Posted: 7/20/2008 12:07:35 AM
celestial beings came down from the heavens and gave them knowledge. Check out zacharia stetchen on youtube. Its all there.
 shammgod
Joined: 5/3/2008
Msg: 33
Sumerians
Posted: 7/20/2008 10:08:40 AM

So if they are from 8ooo years ago, wouldn’t that date from around 6000BC? Isn’t that much older than the Sumerian artifacts?


There are many areas all over the world which have traces of humans that are older than the Sumerians, the question is whether or not they are sufficient to be called a "civilization", which usually denotes more advanced features like writing, a calendar, government, religion, division of labor, etc.
 RDtoo
Joined: 1/30/2005
Msg: 34
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Posted: 8/2/2009 11:24:40 AM
Do you think you could expand on that statement Julian, for those of us who are in the dark?
 shankalicious
Joined: 7/19/2011
Msg: 35
Sumerians
Posted: 10/10/2011 12:51:43 AM
Hey Raven

I would like to recommend a book - "Divine Encounters" by Zecharia Sitchin. In this book the author dissects many of the different "forms" that God has taken on in the Bible, with the hopes of providing some sort of clue as to WHO God really might be. Of course this is all in reference to the mythological deities that existed during the years of the Sumerian, Persian, Babylonian, Egyptian, and early Mes0-American cultures... but still, it is a fascinating read for anyone wanting to get a better grasp on the true identity of God. In this post it seems you have questioned that God must be at least 2 different beings... but "Divine Encounters" shows that his image might be that of multiple Old World deities.

From what information I have amassed, the timeline for Mesopotamia follows:

Sumerians
Amorites (Akkadians)
Old Babylonians
Hittites
Kassites
Assyrians
New Babylonians
Persians

The Egyptians were in power too during this time, but they were being overthrown by the Hyksos while the Hittites were overthrowing Old Babylon.

Also, Meso-American cultures existed during all of this. The order for their rise is:

Paleo-Indians (a step up past cavemen)
Archaic Indians
Olmecs (from Africa)
Mayans
Aztecs


There are other cultures that ruled (like the Incas and the Peruvians - who settled in South America after coming across the ocean from SOMEWHERE, extremely early in the game) in South America, but I dont know enough about all of the different offshoots to actually list them. I'm sure someone else could though.

An important note to be made is that almost all of these cultures have the same Gods, but with different names.
 Ravenstar66
Joined: 8/27/2007
Msg: 36
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Posted: 10/10/2011 10:23:14 AM
"In this post it seems you have questioned that God must be at least 2 different beings... but "Divine Encounters" shows that his image might be that of multiple Old World deities.
"

Intriguing
 shankalicious
Joined: 7/19/2011
Msg: 37
Sumerians
Posted: 10/10/2011 12:05:22 PM
I dont know if you are familiar with Sumerian deities, but God is at least two of them for sure. Enki is the serpent, which is often associated with Satan in the Bible, cos Enki is the being that convinced Eve to eat the fruit of knowledge. I am pretty sure this story is in the Enuma Elish. But Enki is also the being that hid behind the wall and told Noah (in Sumerian he is known as Utnapishtim) about the flood. And since the Bible says that this was Jehovah, it is clear that Enki takes on some of the characteristics of Jehovah in the Bible. There are of course other references to Enki as Jehovah simply cos the Enuma Elish and other Sumerian "texts" associate Enki with the character that acted as Jehovah in the Bible. But Enlil is also associated with Jehovah, cos it is Enlil who has the Garden that man tends to.... as well as other stories in which he takes on Jehovah's character (I dont want to list them all cos that would take forever)... I think in short it is Enlil that receives the sacrifices after the flood subsides (this is in the Bible as the event in which man begins to eat meat, instead of having to only sacrifice it to the "Gods").

But "Divine Encounters" shows that Enki and Enlil (who are brothers in Sumerian mythology) were both not present during some of the events in which Jehovah appeared during the Bible. Most specifically is the bombing of Soddom and Gommorah. This occurred due to a nuclear weapon that Enki's half sister obtained and used in a war with the Gods. Since the Bible says that Jehovah was responsible for this, it seems that He is associated with multiple Gods. "Divine Encounters" does a great job of detailing the differences, as well as the differences in the God known as "Yahweh" and the God known as "Jehovah".

Happy reading!
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 38
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Posted: 10/14/2011 12:48:40 AM
The most prolific forces in all religions and belief systems, are inference, and interpretation. When we look back to beliefs of old, such as the Sumerians, it is important to recognize BOTH, that the Sumerians themselves were engaged in trying to interpret and infer the nature of the world around them, and that the scholars who read the Sumerian texts are ALSO trying to interpret and infer how those texts might relate to what they saw that came later from others.

This is important, not because one should discard all interpretations by anyone out of hand, but because all interpretations and inferences are DEPENDENT upon their source materials having been accurately translated, and that in turn requires that the now long gone culture that wrote them, has been accurately understood.

That is a VERY tall order to fill.

For myself, I also would keep in mind that whether or not a given belief came before or after another has nothing to do with it's being more valid than another belief. If anything, we can see through the study of history, that the hegemony of a belief has very little to do with the belief itself, and everything to do with the continuity and relative military and social strength of it's followers.

All of the most influential and/or popular belief systems include the swallowing of other belief systems, and the integration of those systems "gods" within their own beliefs. This is the equivalent of empire-building in a religious sense, and when accompanied by military conquest, or by economic conquest, has resulted in one religion SEEMING to swallow others, while actually itself EVOLVING because of it's ingestion of those other belief systems.
 Ravenstar66
Joined: 8/27/2007
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Posted: 10/14/2011 7:58:55 AM
"All of the most influential and/or popular belief systems include the swallowing of other belief systems, and the integration of those systems "gods" within their own beliefs. This is the equivalent of empire-building in a religious sense, and when accompanied by military conquest, or by economic conquest, has resulted in one religion SEEMING to swallow others, while actually itself EVOLVING because of it's ingestion of those other belief systems."

Great way of putting it. Seen in culture all the time...
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
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Posted: 10/16/2011 10:10:57 AM
It can also lead to the student or researcher having to deal with the [practically unanswerable ] question: is the EARLIER understanding of a god, the more accurate one, or is the later one a more enlightened or revealed understanding?

Thus the Sumerians, were they around to speak for themselves today, might claim that the Judeo Christians religion is built upon "going astray of the Truth," while at the very same time, the Judeo-Christians claim that the Sumerians simply misapprehended the REAL truth of god, which they have since managed to make known.
 Gwendolyn2010
Joined: 1/22/2006
Msg: 41
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Posted: 12/6/2011 3:27:51 PM
We in the modern world cannot begin to understand the religion of the Sumerians.

As for the similarities in the Hebrew Scriptures and the Enuma Elish and other Sumerian religious writings, research religious archetypes. The creation myths of every mythoi that I have read include the same basic elements. The Sumerians were not the originators of their myth: they inherited them in an oral tradition that could have existed from the Neolithic if not the Paleolithic. Egypt, having a civilization concurrent with the Sumerians, had the same types of myth.

The Jews got the myths from the Egyptians and the Sumerians--or, probably more accurate, from the Babylonians. There is very little new in the way of Judaic myth; to know this, all one has to do is compare the story of Utnapishtim and Noah. Utnapishtim predates the Noah tale.
 Ravenstar66
Joined: 8/27/2007
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Posted: 12/30/2011 6:54:38 AM
True

What this leads me to is that there is an underlying common psychology of belief for humanity based on archetypes, which spans time - from the earliest days of civilization (probably from the beginning of symbolic thought).

Maybe we should look at that as a part of humanity's evolutionary process.(?) it's a thought. Carl Jungs "Man and his symbols" was very enlightening for me in this area.
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
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Posted: 12/30/2011 5:25:07 PM
I've heard about that stuff, though I haven't read it. There might well be significance to it.

I CAN see, just by looking, that there is LIKELY to be lots of similar solutions to peoples ponderables (this weeks cute religion reference) simply because all humans are shaped the same, and have to deal with the same basic challenges. People come up with similar solutions, because they face similar problems. That they might be influenced by having the same basic BRAIN structure, and chemical forces working inside them is also likely.

I always wonder about psychology-based explanations, even as I use them to understand things. I have to admit, I can't tell for sure if Jung and Freud and the rest, actually believe that the concepts they describe have independent reality, or are just "virtual" ways for them to get ideas across.
 Ravenstar66
Joined: 8/27/2007
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Posted: 12/31/2011 6:37:24 AM
GREAT thought!

I will have to mull that over to give a good response but I think that Jung and Freud, et al believed in these as real... take the 'collective consciousness' of Jung's - from his writings you can see he believed in it. (and in another vein quantum mechanics kind of supports it - the observer effect)

BUT, the better question is, "is it an independent reality, albeit an energetic structural one, or is it just another layer of virtual symbolism to describe human perception?"

Language is virtual symbolism itself, a construct to convey perception and the synthesis of those perceptions.

okay, now you are hurting my brain. lol
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