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 Black velvet 46
Joined: 11/5/2007
Msg: 52
Does accepting an expensive dinner from a man obligates a woman to have sex with him?Page 3 of 20    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20)
" this argument is EXACTLY the reason I hate dating in america.
It's not even a question in ALMOST ANY OTHER COUNTRY"

Ahh you mean anywhere else the women usually put out after an expensive meal without making a big deal about it, because that's the norm?.
 matchlessm
Joined: 11/11/2007
Msg: 53
Does accepting an expensive dinner from a man obligates a woman to have sex with him?
Posted: 4/14/2008 9:03:56 PM
Of course not--nor does anything else obligate any woman to have sex on a date. A number of times, I've been used for free drinks, a free dinner, or both, by women I met on internet dating sites. You just write them off as resentful, manipulative jerks and go home.

I can't imagine having sex with a woman who didn't want to--that's part of the excitement. And when it comes to ones like I mentioned, I wouldn't want to touch them, either.
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 54
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Does accepting an expensive dinner from a man obligates a woman to have sex with him?
Posted: 4/14/2008 9:12:42 PM

No bloom they are yust your everyday liberated women, who happen to know what they want and is not afraid to go after it.


Not that it matters , because you ignore when I speak directly to you...but...being liberated and going after what you want isn't exclusive to sex...and, that sounds suspiciously like an attempt to make any woman who doesn't agree feel guilty...a common tactic, pretty much the same as the men who expect sex just for buying dinner....

PShaw....I am "liberated" and know what I want, and how to go after it...but, it would be about what I want then...not what some man wants...no? Liberated doesn't mean...agrees with men does it? Not last time I checked...
 aSydneyMale
Joined: 5/16/2006
Msg: 55
Does accepting an expensive dinner from a man obligates a woman to have sex with him?
Posted: 4/14/2008 9:22:23 PM

I don't know...seems a man would prefer to have someone have sex with them because she liked him, and wanted to, not out of obligation...


Well that's my position exactly.

If I thought for a second a woman is having dinner, or indeed sleeping with me for any other reason than because she liked my company and wanted to, then she wouldn't be there.

Dating is a way of finding out about someone and seeing if there's potential for something more, for me anyway, I expect nothing else.
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 56
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Does accepting an expensive dinner from a man obligates a woman to have sex with him?
Posted: 4/14/2008 9:34:01 PM

Dating is a way of finding out about someone and seeing if there's potential for something more, for me anyway, I expect nothing else...


Well, that's how most people see it , I think...

You all need to go over to the sex on a first date thread ..lol...the argument is a little one sided on that one...lol...I keep getting told I'm unliberated, frigid and repressed, and no one else, especially any men, feel that way?



 Black velvet 46
Joined: 11/5/2007
Msg: 57
Does accepting an expensive dinner from a man obligates a woman to have sex with him?
Posted: 4/14/2008 10:00:26 PM
"Not that it matters, because you ignore when I speak directly to you... But... Being liberated and going after what you want isn't exclusive to sex"

I just went over your post in this thread and can't find an instant where i ignore you when you were addressing me directly. That comment must be directed at another thread. If you feel i have offended you in some way, please accept my apology.

I never said being liberated was exclusive to sex. But a woman speaking out for what she wants sexually is a huge part of the liberation.
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 58
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Does accepting an expensive dinner from a man obligates a woman to have sex with him?
Posted: 4/14/2008 10:23:17 PM


I never said being liberated was exclusive to sex. But a woman speaking out for what she wants sexually is a huge part of the liberation


(You didn't offend me, I just asked you something earlier and you skipped right over it.)

Which also means...if she wants to not trade sex for food she's allowed that too, doesn't it? To me, liberation just means being free to be who I am without judgments from other people, whatever "who I am" entails...I guess I think this assumption that if you aren't into casual sex, or sex for trade, that means you aren't "liberated", with the assumption being..that makes you "bad"?

Men complain that women pick and choose what they want based on liberation...I think many men ignore or despise almost any aspect of it that isn't about sexual "freedom", because we all know , many men would be ecstatic if all women felt the same way as they did about it ...sexual freedom to me just means free to do what I'm comfortable with, in the ways I'm comfortable, without being looked down on by some men.

But as usual, that isn't really possible...no matter which way a woman feels, she turns off some group of men...if she's freer about sex, some think she's a slut...if she is more reserved the other group assumes she is a prude or frigid...so, the real liberation would be the freedom to be whichever way works for you..and not get blasted about it by any group?
 Black velvet 46
Joined: 11/5/2007
Msg: 59
Does accepting an expensive dinner from a man obligates a woman to have sex with him?
Posted: 4/14/2008 10:23:43 PM
Here is the thing i hate most about online dating.....WAY TOO MUCH BS GOING ON.

Women are going out with guy they have no interest in. Just to get out of the house, making the guy spend money on them, while knowing there will be no second date. That to me is total and utter BS. It's women like these that make it hard for most women online.

Guys are spending money on women and trying to treat them like hookers. This to me is also total and utter BS. Guys like these are making it alot harder for some women to want to come out from behind those computers and actually date.

Neither side can fully trust the other so we are forever buried in a pit of mistrust.
 Black velvet 46
Joined: 11/5/2007
Msg: 60
Does accepting an expensive dinner from a man obligates a woman to have sex with him?
Posted: 4/15/2008 4:56:07 AM
" So what's the difference then from a woman who decides to go out with a guy and put up with him knowing she she don't really like him and has no real inetrest in him, and knows tha there willll never be anything between them "dating/relationship oe even friendship of any kind ever.. weather its for "hey i got nothing else to do this weekend and he has been bugging mem lets see what happens??? why not,? hehe... or hey free meal get outta the house for awhile .
Is it any different than some men manipulating a woman into beliving he's really interested in her and wants something meaning full when in reality he just wants SEX"

I totally agree with the above statement. Both senarios are clearly wrong.
 Black velvet 46
Joined: 11/5/2007
Msg: 61
Does accepting an expensive dinner from a man obligates a woman to have sex with him?
Posted: 4/15/2008 6:48:44 AM
" limousine door to door service to 5 star restaurant-my younger and much prettier friend is hungry too- do you mind if she joins us for ..erm... dinner "

Now there is a senario that will have some guys blowing their entire paychecks. And doing it with a huge smile on their faces. Taking into account this comment of course.... "Exclusive 5 star restaurant---my ass is yours baby"
 Black velvet 46
Joined: 11/5/2007
Msg: 62
Does accepting an expensive dinner from a man obligates a woman to have sex with him?
Posted: 4/15/2008 8:56:37 AM
"I'm generally not asked by wealthy women to enjoy dinner with them"

Ok this i understand, but if you were asked and at the end of the night she expected you to get naked as some kind of payment..... What would you do?
 Adam 4 Coffee
Joined: 5/31/2007
Msg: 63
Does accepting an expensive dinner from a man obligates a woman to have sex with him?
Posted: 4/15/2008 2:17:41 PM
The woman is not obligated to have sex unless she wants to. But taking a woman out to a fancy resturant for the best prepared foods is an attempt to imnpress her and woo her into wanting to have sex with the man. Often after eating a big meal I am too full for sex. So we gotta take it easy for a couple hours untilw e digest our food. Thent he lvoe making can begin. Somtimes when Iw as with my grilfriend of 3 years we would go to red lobster or this korean BBQ place. not super expensive more like an $80 meal. We would be too full to do anyhting but watch tv and go to sleep and have sex the next day.

to answer the question no, she is not obligated to have sex. But if you bought a guy a $200 wrist watch or spent hours in the kitchen slaving over a hot stove for him woulldn't you want or expect soemthing in return? My point is that nothing is owed or an obligation. Having sex is not anymore of a big deal than taking a dump in a public restroom. Just keep it safe and if you are that grossed out by the act you should find someone who you would want to have sex with and not an ogre!
 Black velvet 46
Joined: 11/5/2007
Msg: 64
Does accepting an expensive dinner from a man obligates a woman to have sex with him?
Posted: 4/15/2008 5:10:15 PM
"While i think the guy OP is quoting sounds like a very selfish person, I do think that a woman has an obligation to not put herself in a situation of appearing as a "user" as well"

That's what i think also, it's a two way street.
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 65
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Does accepting an expensive dinner from a man obligates a woman to have sex with him?
Posted: 4/15/2008 5:37:39 PM

That's what i think also, it's a two way street.


That's exactly what I think..however, I have been out on dates with men, who, even though I offered to pay my half, they vehemently insisted otherwise, so, to avoid an unpleasant scene, I let them...if it doesn't turn out the way they wanted... accuse me of being a user? Which is never my intent.

I had one guy, after a meal, where I did pay for my own, and he asked what I thought, and I said nicely..I just don't think we would do well together ( for one thing, conversation was like pulling teeth), exclaimed in a loud voice in a crowded restaurant: Well, I guess I am not getting any tonight? WTF? I quickly paid my bill, said in a soft voice...and what made you think you ever were going to..and got up to leave. He followed me out of the restaurant, berating me all the way to the car...his last comment was: you don't know what you are missing...I thought to myself..oh, yes I do..lol...then there was the guy who bought me one drink and tried to physically accost me...

I admit to being dismayed that sex has become such an entitlement issue in todays world. There have always been men who thought this way, but seems the net, and the so called "sexual liberation", has made it even worse. I've had men get nasty with me in real life and online for not "playing" their way...it is frustrating and does make one more cautious and less "open" , more cynical. I hate it. But, what can you do?
 El_Mariachi
Joined: 4/21/2007
Msg: 66
Does accepting an expensive dinner from a man obligates a woman to have sex with him?
Posted: 4/15/2008 7:20:32 PM

limousine door to door service to 5 star restaurant-my younger and much prettier friend is hungry too- do you mind if she joins us for ..erm... dinner


That right there is what I like to call a Fully-Blown-Wad.
 matchlessm
Joined: 11/11/2007
Msg: 67
Does accepting an expensive dinner from a man obligates a woman to have sex with him?
Posted: 4/15/2008 7:53:01 PM
Merry0709,

You've already answered your first question to me. Apparently that was necessary to make things come out the way you'd like to see them, rather than as I know they were.

I agree that planning a dinner for sex is not respectable. There's no need to tell me that, because it's neither something I've ever done, nor can even imagine myself doing. You are the first person who has ever impugned my honor in that way. Just curious--is that because, as your profile states, you're "very nice," "gentle," and a Christian?

I didn't say I offered dinner, or that it was my idea. You have no basis, then, for concluding that it was--but why let that interfere with your prejudgment? Nor did I say I spent a lot of money to impress anyone. That was never my intention in the least, and your assertion that it was would get a good laugh from anyone who knows me. Which you do not.

Your conclusions about me could not be more mistaken. I could explain in detail just how each one of these incidents developed, and how I watched my original plan to do something inexpensive and simple (yes, I somehow came up with that without your advice) slip away each time. With truly awful women--rude, ignorant, manipulative, and dishonest. None of whom, incidentally, I met through this site.

But you evidently feel more comfortable assuming (wrongly, and with no real knowledge of the facts) that because I am a man and they were women, the fault must have been mine. Shades of Jim Crow--just substitute sex for race. You've made up your mind, and I don't feel like taking the time and effort to try to change it. If you decide to respond to anything else I post, I hope you won't imply that I lack honor and integrity unless you have some basis for doing that.
 Black velvet 46
Joined: 11/5/2007
Msg: 68
Does accepting an expensive dinner from a man obligates a woman to have sex with him?
Posted: 4/16/2008 5:31:09 AM
" That right there is what I like to call a Full-Blown-Wad"


Touche.
 itechman63
Joined: 7/7/2005
Msg: 69
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Does accepting an expensive dinner from a man obligates a woman to have sex with him?
Posted: 4/16/2008 1:22:24 PM

Does having sex with someone oblige you to but them an expensive dinner?


Don't you think that's the least we can do ?
 Todd817
Joined: 10/17/2006
Msg: 70
Does accepting an expensive dinner from a man obligates another man to have sex with him?
Posted: 4/16/2008 3:36:19 PM
going to a fine dinning place for a 1st(2nd, or 3rd) date is sooo lamo... I hate the lets meet @ starbucks routine as well, being surround by thespians is disturbing.... you need a find a good happy hour @ a place where you can throw peanut shells on the ground.. laugh and have a good time and when she looks at the menu and asked what your in the mood for, say 'room service' =)
 fra59e
Joined: 6/4/2005
Msg: 71
Does accepting an expensive dinner from a man obligates a woman to have sex with him?
Posted: 4/16/2008 5:57:39 PM
reddwine says:

"You and your date should be grown up enough to know how to communicate. Its simple. Discuss what you want to do and if it doesnt please both parties, then go to the next fish. "

Ah yes, how right she is. Discuss what you WANT, not what you think is owed like a duty. Desire, not obligation, is the point.

*sigh* If only I were a whole lot younger and way, way closer I would want to swing by to meet that lady, she's gorgeous. As well as smart and articulate.

I think the answer to the header question is: nobody should feel obligated or feel owed anything if they give somebody a gift. And if a dinner isn't a gift then who would want it? Who wants it to be a commercial transaction like bargaining? And of course the sexist reference in the header is inappropriate in this century - in an honest relationship gift-giving such as buying dinners goes both ways with no obligations and no expectations. If a healthy relationship develops it will be built on mutual respect between equals, not on obligations.
 itechman63
Joined: 7/7/2005
Msg: 72
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Does accepting an expensive dinner from a man obligates a woman to have sex with him?
Posted: 4/16/2008 6:01:17 PM

And never let it be said you didn't do the least you could do, itech?


Ohhhhh SNAP!
 Black velvet 46
Joined: 11/5/2007
Msg: 73
Does accepting an expensive dinner from a man obligates a woman to have sex with him?
Posted: 4/16/2008 6:56:35 PM
" I would never take a woman on an expensive date unless we were going steady anyway. There are too many cheap tarts wanting something for nothing"

And the hits just keep on coming..... Hard to imagine why the above posters is not taken.
 Black velvet 46
Joined: 11/5/2007
Msg: 74
Does accepting an expensive dinner from a man obligates a woman to have sex with him?
Posted: 4/17/2008 5:16:40 AM
" this thread makes me think i should re-consider my position w the guys that offer me two grand for sex, at least i'w get more done with that, and don't have to listen to BS all night. I guess i was stupid to turn those guys down!".

Ok now i know that the guys that come into those clubs are usually drunk and pretty horny.... BUT TWO GRAND TO SLEEP WITH A STRIPPER?????. I find that very hard to believe, unless there was something else in that poor fools drink besides alcohol.
 fra59e
Joined: 6/4/2005
Msg: 75
Does accepting an expensive dinner from a man obligates a woman to have sex with him?
Posted: 4/17/2008 8:28:11 AM
Quoting Disco:

"Just because a woman accepts an expensive dinner, it doesn't obligate her to do anything. At all. "
................................................................

Exactly. A gift is not a gift unless it is given without expectation of return. If there is expectation of return it is not a gift at all but is a market transaction, a trade.

If one person invites another to a meal, the one who does the inviting should be preapred to pay for it. His or her hosting the dinner is giving a gift, not bargaining a deal.

There is nothing wrong with a market transaction if that is intended. In that case, agreement is reached before they do anything. Then each understands in advance what they are getting into. And each person will stick to the agreement.

Trouble arises when one person assumes that a transaction is being negotiated when the other assumes that a gift is being given. There is a failure to agree in advance because somebody is making assumptions. Assumptions screw you up every time.

If James says to Mary "Would you like to go for dinner at the Cosmopolitan Hotel dining room? I hear it's pretty classy."

Mary responds, "Isn't that pretty expensive?"

James: "Yes, it is."

Mary: "O.K., I would like to go with you, and let's split the bill."

James:
(1): No, let me pick up the tab. I just got a big raise.
or
(2): O.k., that will be fine.

Notice that nobody is walking into the trap of some implied but unstated obligation.

Switch James and Mary around and the result will be exactly the same. Neither of them should assume that they are expected to take a predetermined role just because one of them has genitals different from the other.

This is a wholesome and clean agreement bewetween equals, not getting suckered into a set of unstated obligations.

It should be exactly the same pattern if James is going to dinner with Charlie, or if Mary is going to dinner with Jane. Gender has nothing to do with courtesy.

But what if James is such a jerk that he thinks he deserves to get laid just because he buys Mary a lobster dinner? If he's like that she will do better to have nothing to do with him. And if Mary is such a golddigger that she thinks her gender gives her automatic access to his wallet, she is a mooching pest and he should dump her fast.
 fra59e
Joined: 6/4/2005
Msg: 76
Does accepting an expensive dinner from a man obligates a woman to have sex with him?
Posted: 4/18/2008 5:16:55 PM
" ... They were all more than willing. *sigh* It just doesn't play the same coming from a woman to a man as it does in reverse. Not a one of them even tried to play 'hard to get'. ..."
.........................................................

Well I have never "played hard to get" and I have never wasted my time on any woman who "played hard to get."

I have however been the cause of grief to one woman who stayed over one night and ASSUMED that this implied that she would get laid. Well, I do not ASSUME anything and I do not feel obligated to care about people who are dumb enough to ASSUME stuff. I did not feel obligated and I did not feel attracted to her and apparently that was very hurtful to her. Well, too bad. No woman should imagine that just because she is female every man is eager to get into her pants. It's just not true.

And if I stay overnight at some woman's house I do NOT imagine that her hospitality means she is inviting me into her bed. If that's what she wants, let her say so, and if it's what I want, trust me, I will say so. Assumptions really screw things up.
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