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 WeAre1
Joined: 3/18/2008
Msg: 39
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Why are there so many abusive people, and is there hope for them?Page 6 of 7    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7)
First, this was your post 16, Asp Angel that started all the trouble and misunderstanding here, as far as I can see. The thread was asking, for the first time perhaps, is there any help for the abuser, not the abused.....for we know so often the abused is the one in the spotlight on these forums.....

So, I was interested to see this thread and was so glad to see the first posts were really focusing on the original questions (though I figured soon enough the abused would start talking here, for of course they are more likely to than those doing the abuse it seems)....

And then out of the blue you posted your post that not only did not address the original question, but brought up your view from the abused side and almost blamed the abused for the abuse, even though I realize you were trying to say, to help the abuser, help yourself and defend yourself and that truly is what you found stopped the abuse. But it was misunderstood because and taken as insensitive because you were taking your own strength and lack of victim identity and trying to instill that in others. Sadly, it sounded quite different upon first reading -

If everywhere you go, a problem follows you, then the problem is you.
Accept it and figure out how to fix it. Take an assertiveness training course. Get some self esteem if that's the problem, but stop blaming others for a problem that no doubt comes from within.
To be walked all over, one has to first lay down.
Stand tall and the problem will go away.
Best Wishes

See, you really do take all responsibility away from the abuser completely and make it the abused one's fault by saying 'the problem is you'.
Funny thing is I couldn't figure out at first if you were talking about the abused, or the abuser, honestly! I really thought it could be great advice - the first part because it is the advise i would say to an abuser - the problem is them and not the fault of the abused - to stop blaming the abused for the problem is within them. (I am coming from the idea that so many abusers start the abuse by pointing out fault with their partners, and using that as an excuse to beat/rape/mistreat them so.)

Alright, this is such am emotive subject for all of us, I think, that have posted here and because of that, it is very difficult to not get into some states writing about it....and trying to see the issue from the abusers view - for of course that is a bit like meeting the criminal who has murdered your child, for example and trying to talk with them to get some closure - something I don't think I would want to do, but who knows. My abuser died from cancer a long and painful death and I never got to confront him and say, how could he do it?

But, in my mind, having grown up with an extremely strict father who could not really control his temper and also an uncle who could not really control his sexual impulses when it came to young girls, I saw and experienced a lot of the mind set from these two perspectives - and to me, yes, it's a control issue and the issue is the abuser can not control themselves - they can not stop themselves from giving in to their impulses. And the more they can't, then yes, I think it is like an addiction, the harder it gets to stop.

With addictions, my understanding is one way to stop the cycle is for the addict to hit rock bottom and only when there really is no other option will they seek help, or take advantage of help that is there if they want it. But what is rock bottom for an abuser? The idea of removing the abused (or of course the abused can remove themselves, but that really is hardly possible when they are a child, or are still stuck in that childlike helplessness if you grew up from abuse and became part of another abusing relationship as an adult....)

The levels of dysfunction and distortion on both sides run so deep, I honestly don't think a forum thread trying to get to the heart of this subject is doing it justice.
But I can try and express the last parts of my experience that might shed some more light -
Yes, get away from the abuser if at all possible in any way - then the target is not you, anyway. That will help the abuser. I have no idea who an abuser blames their behavior on....for of course not until they see they are responsible for their behavior can they ever hope to seek or want help for it.

The issue of the victim mentality, of the abused recreates this situation over and over again to understand it or unconsciously? Well, when you grow up, when I grew up and long before, of course I always wondered why? What had I done to create the situation? Even as a child, for of course my father always blamed me for his lack of control of his anger and I was expected to behave in the way that would not set him off....but I was a child! And he was the adult and I was never allowed to get or express my anger.

And so, the abused grows up with questions and seeks help often. And the help comes in the form of counselling often that says, "You were the victim and it is absolutely not your responsibility what happened to you and so you can let go of it because it's not yours to carry. That there is nothing wrong with you."

And you walk away from that say, wait a minute. Every selp help book, every spiritual course, every spiritual teacher and teaching says we are responsible for everything that happens in our lives - that we are always the ones who create our lives, even unconsciuosly. And what did I do to create this - why? So, the question of why is still here. And so you start studying the issue yourself and you learn, like some said here that a victim of abuse has an 'aura' if you will and that abusers will somehow pick up on it and know this target will do as they wish and keep quiet about it because they have been there before. I believe that.....and I was really interested, rune, in your portrayal finally and for the first time I have ever seen, the profile of the abused as being strong and not a weak person at all. That made sense to me. If anything, it seemed almost like being abused is clearly a stronger 'position' than the one abusing, for to lose control is not strong, but weak in my mind.....and also a very dangerous place to go, for everyone.

Do abused people grow up to be compassionate? Yes, quite often because if they want to understand their abuse, eventually they get to the wisdom that tells them the only way to heal is to truly and unbelievably forgive. And to do that, it takes more compassion than most of us have. And finally, for those of us who still believe we are responsible for everything that occurs in our lives, we then have to forgive ourselves for whatever we did that somehow attracted the abuse. It is the only way I think to heal and I truly think for abusers, this is the only way they too will learn other ways to deal with their impulses and stop their abusing - to really stop it. For themselves, and for those they hurt.
 WeAre1
Joined: 3/18/2008
Msg: 40
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Why are there so many abusive people, and is there hope for them?
Posted: 5/21/2008 3:45:33 AM
Sorry - double post - forgot to say - yes abusers can change! My father, once all his stresses were removed (raising four children all a year apart in age, with not enough funds or time or patience or tolerance).....he finally has become one very loving man. How? I don't know, I would have to ask him. I think he faced himself finally - all this targets grew up and left except my mother, though he only was verbally abusive with her......something in him gave it up and he faced his demons perhaps.....like we all have to do. And under all the anger was a very sensitive heart who was bursting to express his love, which he does these days more than most anyone else I know. SO, there is hope. There is help for the abuser - and the abused.
 StrangerInTheHouse
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 43
Why are there so many abusive people, and is there hope for them?
Posted: 5/21/2008 7:56:33 AM
the reason abusers don't get help is that it's a successful survival strategy. They just use people up for what they can get and then move on if the abused people don't stand for it anymore.
They really don't need the people they abuse in their lives, so they take advantage of them.
The person in a relationship who needs that relationship the least can control it. Whether they do or not is just a matter of consience and how much they need to feel "good" about themselves.
I've been abusive, but learned when the person cut me off from them that I'd miss not having the person in my life, so I stopped.
That's the ONLY thing that will make them stop and if they don't need people, they'll NEVER stop.
It's a condition described by psychiatrists as being "anal" as in "analytical". They don't value people the way people value themselves, but as tools to be used in life to get what they want. They feel no guilt, pain, shame or remorse when they hurt someone else, because, they reason-it's not them, so why should they feel that?
Successful people in our society have to have some measure of "anal" qualities in their psychological makeup to succeed, unless they're born rich. They might not be abusive at all... but it's that quality taken to the nth degree that's what we're dealing with here.
 StrangerInTheHouse
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 45
Why are there so many abusive people, and is there hope for them?
Posted: 5/21/2008 11:27:37 AM
Interesting that the thread title is asking if there's hope for the abusers...
I should think the abused need it more, actually.
It's about saying NO and leaving, if necessary.
Feeling sorry for abusers is one of the traps that leads to empowering the monsters who commit the abuse.
 WeAre1
Joined: 3/18/2008
Msg: 47
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Why are there so many abusive people, and is there hope for them?
Posted: 5/21/2008 12:30:43 PM
ikiera, like a few of us here, thank you for sharing more of your personal experience. I found it another layer of healing to write a bit about mine and I felt that healing also reading your post.
Yes, there is hope....there has to be...for everyone....and that means all who have been abused, male and female.....and all who have abused....both male and female. This thread is not a gender bashing subject and I really pray that stops right now, since it seems to be creeping in here and there is no place for it here.
All sexes, all ages, and honestly, so many people I am close to have experienced abuse, some as both abuser and abused. It seems so unbelievably more widespread than any statistics I have seen.
It is a severe problem with humanity, as far as I can tell, and it is very troubling. So, yes, it is a matter of raising our children with awareness and sensitivity and truly paying attention to what is happening with them.....sensing their level of emotional and physical safety at all times, and thankfully, now, many more adults are coming forward to ask for help - from both sides.
I know this is only one small thread, and lately there have been many on this subject, so I know more and more are speaking openly about this. And that is good, I think, for in the end all need healing....'all' meaning both abused and abuser.
Figuring out how to help the abuser is a huge step in the right direction.
 beautifuldancer400
Joined: 6/12/2007
Msg: 49
Why are there so many abusive people, and is there hope for them?
Posted: 5/21/2008 8:00:34 PM
It is easy to get involved with someone who is abusive because at first they are extremely attentive and almost seem too good to be true. This is part of their trap.

Then it starts...Who were you talking to? What time did you leave work? Why didn't you answer your phone when I called? I called you 15 times in the past five minutes...where were you? Etc.

Next, come the accusations. After that, they prey on any weakness you have and try to make you feel like a looser.

After that...hmmmmm I don't know??? That's about as much as I've ever let anyone abuse me.

Next time, I will get out after...I called you 15 times in the past five minutes...
 packagedealx3
Joined: 2/4/2006
Msg: 54
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Why are there so many abusive people, and is there hope for them?
Posted: 5/22/2008 6:55:30 AM
Some people and those they abuse do not recognize it for what it is. Others are afraid to really look at themselves and change. And in many cases, the services that are available are unaffordable if someone cannot find a non-profit or some other organization from which to receive help. My X never hit me but I am sure if the prospect of jail hadn't been staring him in the face he would have. To this day, nearly four years after we split and closer to six since the day I told him to get counseling or we weren't staying married, he says he wants his family back but refuses to make that phone call. I wish for my kids' sake he would do it but he is 53, not going to happen.

Another reason that many abusers remain the way they are is because nice people usually choose not to associate themselves with people that are negative influences. I knew someone that was a snotty biatch for no apparent reason and one by one, those individuals that were her friends disassociated themselves because most of the time not only was there no reason for her bad mood, she would go from perfectly normal to mean as hell in two seconds, really pretty unbelievably mean. She was just poison to be around.

I don't work outside the home so my opportunities for doing this are limited but I encourage my children to be nice to people if they can, even if they are being hateful because they may have a horrible life at home. My children have forged some pretty decent friendships because of this and more often than not, find out that their behavior at school was related to things going on with the family. Who knows, maybe more olive branches would take some of the hurt and anger away and allow people to make better choices for themselves.
 StrangerInTheHouse
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 56
Why are there so many abusive people, and is there hope for them?
Posted: 5/22/2008 9:17:36 AM
jeez.. and these are only the ones who tell you the TRUTH!!!

How about the serial spouse killers out there? of BOTH sexes?

hey... it's a crap shoot no matter what... to some degree. You might grow up with someone who winds up becoming abusive as they get older. The way people treat other people depends on many things: their mental health, their home or work environment, their support systems...like family, etc... neuropsychological development.. who knows?
The truth is that somewhere along the line, most people get abusive in some way. Humans are like that, I feel...so if you want to be in any LTR with someone, you have to be able to take a little crap... unless you're rich and can afford to dump them when that happens.

However, when it becomes life threatening or a chronic condition that makes it so you're afraid to face them or you're losing sleep and getting extremely depressed and can't stop thinking about the problem even when you're not with them; it's probably time to make a change, whether you can afford it or not.

If you stay, you're not helping them. If anything, they'll be more confident in what they're doing BECAUSE you stay and they'll get worse.

Don't forget: nothing succeeds like success... and if they pull that stuff on you and get something out of it, they've succeeded and you've given them the power to do that.
You lose.
 StrangerInTheHouse
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 58
Why are there so many abusive people, and is there hope for them?
Posted: 5/23/2008 8:15:32 AM
I don't think it's fair for women to get as many advantages as they generally do when it comes to child custody in a divorce case. The problem is that when a court rules, it really doesn't have the resources to determine WHO the best caregiver is...
It's just like a murder case... The state and the accused bring their case before the court. The court MUST rule one way or the other...and either convict the defendant or let them go free. They have to make the call based on ONLY the evidence presented to it. Some innocent people are going to get convicted and some guilty people will go free, but it's the best our society can do at this time.

Males in the human and indeed, the primate species are known as being more violent, generally, than females. Females are usually the caregivers of the species. Of course, there are MANY exceptions to this... and courts would be well advised to listen to arguments concerning those...

... But if a custody case is brought before the court, given as little as they know about the individuals, who can fault them for assuming the woman would usually do a better job?
 StrangerInTheHouse
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 60
Why are there so many abusive people, and is there hope for them?
Posted: 5/23/2008 11:21:15 AM

this is one of the poorest explanations I have read yet ..and this is exactly what men are complaining about ..equal custody removes the fight without the need for a court at all to become involved unless there is a problem.,,and we have a system in place to call if there is reason to settle things in favour of one ....so if you want to stop abuse or pushing men over the edge ..stop abusing them ..stop forcing them to fight back..stop pushing them around..stop kidnapping or steeling there family from them..and extorting them to pay up in court when they try and contest this one sided court system ..want to stop abuse ..just stop abusing men ..because that is what keeps the cycle of abuse going.... its time to legislate equality unless it can be proved in court otherwise should be considered..and end all the fighting

Poor explanation?
I don't quite understand how you're criticizing my statement... if you're saying there's no general pattern of women being less dangerous to children than men... let me ask how many times you've heard of men holding their families hostage when police are trying to arrest them? or killing the wife and kids because the wife wants a divorce, etc, etc, etc...?

How many times have you heard of women doing this?
Isn't familicide almost exclusively a male thing?
Isn't this in itself a valid general reason (exceptions notwithstanding, as I mentioned above... The court certainly can't ASSUME everything, or there would be no purpose for a court...it would just be a rule of law that women GET custody, and that's certainly NOT the case!) for courts to be abit predisposed to assume the female would usually be a better caregiver, all other things being equal?
Think about it.
 opnmydm
Joined: 3/23/2008
Msg: 61
Why are there so many abusive people, and is there hope for them?
Posted: 5/23/2008 2:43:37 PM
there is, they just dont seek it out, are afraid to admit the problem.
jail is ok in certain instances, but truthfully, it will mostly do more harm than good for most..some do deserve time in the cell, but they need mental help..meds and counseling
 WeAre1
Joined: 3/18/2008
Msg: 62
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Why are there so many abusive people, and is there hope for them?
Posted: 5/26/2008 2:26:27 AM
^^^yes, i agree -
Who can fault the courts for assuming the women would do a better job? I will, for one, fault them. The court is supposed to be impartial. The court system is a major reason possibly the biggest reason we have equal rights legislation so it is time they started to impliment their own laws into their system and treat both sexes equally.

perhaps off topic, but yes - i have always thought the courts and law are full of hypocricy -

the 'innocent until proven guilty' cliche' does not apply when children are automatically put with mothers and it is assumed they will make better caretakers and providers....grrrr.... i'm a woman and i feel that is much too closed minded - almost like the men are pre-determined to be guilty, so not given a fair chance being fathers...grrrr...i don't agree with it at all.
 WeAre1
Joined: 3/18/2008
Msg: 64
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Why are there so many abusive people, and is there hope for them?
Posted: 5/26/2008 3:51:43 AM
^^^ You say
"I think it's easy to get away with is because, when it really counts, people "mind their own business" and people ignore it, accept it or generally chose not to deal with it for whatever reason. ..."


I think the essence of why there are so many abusive and abused people is because of the shame. And, some abusive people carry guilt just after the incident, but it does not usually stop them from 'committing' the same crime again....and again.....and again.

And the abused, both men and women, carry so much shame that runs very deep. To tell anyone requires huge trust that they then won't be ridiculed for allowing themselves to be in such a relationship.

Also, remember, for those who were abused as children, not telling anyone was part of the 'training'. It runs very deep not to tell. And many are still too afraid to.
 WeAre1
Joined: 3/18/2008
Msg: 66
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Why are there so many abusive people, and is there hope for them?
Posted: 5/26/2008 5:40:46 AM
'and the game plays on'....

we are so horrified to think torture happens by our and other governments, but it also happens right here in our own homes - for that is what abuse is - it is torture and it really is no game, of course......and all the players are losers....until the end the game....a bit like Jumaangi - opening it up can so often bring more horrors.
 simpleman20188
Joined: 8/11/2007
Msg: 68
Why are there so many abusive people, and is there hope for them?
Posted: 5/26/2008 10:56:04 AM
"Why are there so many abusive people, and is there hope for them?"
I have come to the conclusion we teach people how to treat us.

It doesn't mean there are'nt abusive people out there it just means the are not likely to abuse someone who doesn't let them.
 licoricecat_1
Joined: 11/23/2008
Msg: 69
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Why are there so many abusive people, and is there hope for them?
Posted: 10/9/2009 1:23:35 PM
My ex-boyfriend was abusive in every way. What caused me to fall in love with him was his charm and humor and his class. He only abused me when no one was looking and he was explosive. He is friends with the police and the courts, so they continue to let him slide and find reasons to not give me an order of protection. He stalks me, sets me up and calls the police after he hits me and tells them he did not want me there when he insisted on me spending time with him. Help!
 licoricecat_1
Joined: 11/23/2008
Msg: 70
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Why are there so many abusive people, and is there hope for them?
Posted: 10/10/2009 6:38:38 PM
I go to a 12 step group. It is called "loving detachment". You detach yourself emotionally. Provide them tools such as pamphlets, schedules of meetings in whatever the area they have a problem in, purchase literature, provide them phone numbers of the detox programs. If they get in trouble with the law,---do not bail them out. Do not enable them, cover up for them, sugar coat what happened. Let them be responsible for telling the story and being responsible for their own actions. Always tell them you love them and give them the tools so that they may get the help. Hug them. Call the police if they get abusive even if it your own child. It might be possible that you might have to even write a letter to the Judge and let the Judge know they have a drinking problem, anger management problem, gambling problem or ? and need Gambler's Anonymous, Alcoholics Anonymous, Narcotics Anonymous, Anger Management or other kinds of support groups. Use wisdom and tact in this. If it is dangerous---get out. Things will not change and it is not your fault.Take action. /Set boundaries. If they are violated---take action and make a decision.
 licoricecat_1
Joined: 11/23/2008
Msg: 72
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Why are there so many abusive people, and is there hope for them?
Posted: 10/10/2009 7:09:32 PM
My ex-boyfriend I fell in love with and bent over backwards to please him. In return, I got a man who refused to introduce me to his family or friends and I went out 4 1/2 yrs. I was never invited to holiday events. Weekends he often was with his family and I was never invited. He would invite me over and when I went to his apartment he would explode and then tell the police that he did not want me there. Then the police would not know who to charge, ----him with getting violent after begging me to come over or me with trespassing. He stalked me everywhere, bad-mouthed me to everybody where I got kicked out of large churches I went to for years based on him ruining my credibility as a person, ruined my character to his family which made them not want to meet me, choked me, hit me and when I tried to get away he locked my purse, credit cards and telephone in his trunk. When the cops arrived they arrested me because in trying to get away, he got scratched and he dramatized the story on the phone when he called the police, since my phone was locked up. He has also cheated on me repeatedly, with POF women, which is how I found out about POF. He has humilated me behind my back and in front of others. When I was with him, he flirted with woman everywhere and excluded me in any conversation. He is abusive when I am alone with him, never in front of others. He is also technology oriented so he uses equipment to trap me and get evidence to use in court. He is up and down, very charming and charismatic with everybody and most people like him and would never think that he is abusive. He could explode if I ask him a question regarding a party or ? and then next thing you know I am being thrown across the room. No one would ever believe that this man is this abusive. He lies, bounces checks, sets you up to be trapped using technology equipment that is his employers. It is frightening because he is smooth and learned all his techniques from the military, special forces. I really tried to help him and really loved him. He does not want help and fools all the counselors, doctors, police and judges. I tried to go to the counselor with him but he refuses to be honest and deal with the real truth. Now he is lying about even throwing me across the room to the Judge and the Judge is believing him and dismissing the order of protection. It is going to trial and he has a good Attorney. I can't afford one and they told me I don't need one since I have a Town Prosecutor. I do not know what to do. I did nothing, so I should not be concerned. What does he want from me? If we are not seeing one another why is he freaking out about an order of protection and he wants to go to trial instead? The Judge dismissed this order of protection based on a lie that he told the Judge and I was not even present to defend myself. He knows the cops, Judges and systems pretty well since he goes in and out of court for his tenents. He has done so much more to me before, but they are too numerous to talk about. Even though it is over, I hurt emotionally that he did not want help and that he wants a relationship with me, (according to him) yet he is abusive. It does not matter if I love him or not---I need to stay away for my own life and my own freedom, since he knows alot of cops and Judges and they continue to protect him.
 licoricecat_1
Joined: 11/23/2008
Msg: 73
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Why are there so many abusive people, and is there hope for them?
Posted: 10/10/2009 7:26:17 PM
If an abuser wants to get help they should get it, be separated from their family while getting help and slowly be reintroduced back into their family once they display healthy behavior. It is best to keep the family together. However, this should only happen once their are positive signs of healing and behaviors. Kids still love both of their parents and don't want to love neither one.
On another note---what would you say to a person who is abused and none of the agencies will help her? They tell her not to call and will not give a reason why. Some of the shelter people work in the police department and they also refuse to help as well as the Luitenant who is in charge of the Domestic Violence unit. All authorities in the police station were notified and they are all sticking together. When an attempt to make a complaint was filed, 5 police officers surrounded her and told her to leave the premises or she will be arrested. Are the newspapers next? The police refuse to help, refuse to give a reason why and will not allow a complaint to be filed against them.This is the honest truth and this IS a domestic violence situation.
 Discerning Virtuosa
Joined: 6/10/2008
Msg: 74
Why are there so many abusive people, and is there hope for them?
Posted: 10/10/2009 8:28:58 PM
Miss Contemplative- I notice you said "the woman that raised me" as if you have a problem referring to her as your mother or mom - I too get a sick feeling when I say the word mother or mom.
- I grew up with a violent and abusive mother, I was the last of 5 kids - all of them having anger and control issues, paranoid schizophrenia and one died of a head injury at 10 years old before I came along. I was the one who became the doormat - to go along to get along. Walking on eggshells my entire childhood. I have extensive cervical spine problems later in life likely from her yanking my then waist length hair whenever she felt like it, throwing me across a room, hitting me with whatever was handy - the things she said to me go through my mind like it was yesterday. The yelling, screaming, verbal & mental abuse can never be erased from my mind with any amount of counseling. Her biggest fear, was being exposed or "locked up". She did everything she could to keep me isolated, make me feel that was a terrible person and deserved to be treated that way, and she saw herself as a victim of circumstance was very clear to us how much of a burden it was for her to be a single mother. I went to college and rarely went back. One time she did attack me and I still have the scar on my hand where she bit me from 25 years ago. I didn't respect my father for being such a coward and leaving us with her when he knew how she was. They're both passed away - they had me pretty late in life.
When we talk about our mothers very frankly, people think we are being disrespectful, a bad daughter, maybe even possibly making it up for attention because they are in disbelief. They want us to just "get over it". I manage to find happiness throughout my life and think I've turned out very well - no divorces, no pregnancies, no rehab or prison, and I believe I'm a kind person that friends would say is fun to be around. To be honest I am terrified of ever getting into a situation again where I can give anyone that much control over my life. My mother made me never want to have children with a man and end up in the same situation as her. I had been a doormat in many relationships since then always been afraid to set boundaries - that would mean making someone mad and then they could hurt me. I couldn't understand why a man would want to leave me when I was giving, caring, kind, loving and never got angry, lost control, raised her voice, trying to be that perfect little girl but they would stay with women who were demanding, controlling, etc. I wanted to be loved and have a man's attention so bad.
I majored in Psych at college and have done a lot of reading and growing since then. Now I listen, watch, and wait when getting to know someone. I'm no longer afraid to communicate my needs without fear of confrontation, and at the first sign of anger, manipulation or coersion, belittling me - I nip it in the bud and they are gone. I no longer get romantically involved with someone before I have seen and observed their personality thoroughly. and just like I am not afraid to expose my mother for what she truly was, I know an abuser's biggest fear is the humiliation of exposure. They hate accountability to others - one of the strangest, funniest things is where they amazingly are able turn it around completely and try to appear like a victim when that happens. My mother was good at that. She no longer has any power over me, but I have lived much of my life in fear of confrontation and am just now at 46 know that I have a right to be treated with dignity and respect. I don't care if some people think I'm a bad daughter - they have no idea what it was like. Mothers are supposed to protect us and nuture us. I pray for all abused children because I know first hand they have a long hard road ahead of them. Blessed are the meek.
I think abusers are the worst criminals roaming the earth and there is a special place in hell for them.
 Ideoform
Joined: 9/23/2007
Msg: 75
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Why are there so many abusive people, and is there hope for them?
Posted: 10/10/2009 8:51:01 PM
There is a lot of good discussion on this thread.

I agree with some here that the victims need more immediate and intensive help for safety reasons than the abuser because of an appearance that the abuser is "in control" of the situation, when really he is not in control at all.

Unfortunately, as it has been pointed out, it is in the nature of violence that it is difficult to tell who is being the abuser and who isn't when you aren't in the situation directly. This is because it is also in the nature of any human behavior that is not condoned by society -- to lie about it, and to be covert, and secretive about it. And so, a woman can take advantage of the fact that more men tend to be physically violent and abuse men emotionally and get away with it. And men can take advantage of the fact that women tend to be more verbal than physical and use that to get away with being physically abusive by pointing out a women's primary way of dealing with things as the "reason" (excuse.)

I think that the help that needs to happen has to happen to all of us. The abused, the abuser, the witnesses, the community, the culture. Obviously, focusing on any one group hasn't worked. We can separate the abuser from his victim and he knows he/she can find another one. We can separate the victim from the abuser and the victim isn't safe because there is not ever enough surveillance to completely prevent all repercussions unless everyone gets involved at every level of society. We as a society can separate ourselves from both, by jailing the abuser, putting the abused into "homes" (shelters.) But they are never very far away from us, just out of sight for the moment, until the news comes on.

There is a free newsletter available from this website that deals with abuse from all angles:

http://www.angriesout.com/
Dr. Lynne Namka

This website has a great program that can be implemented in schools to prevent the bullying that often precedes or is a sign of abuse among children:

http://www.thegraycenter.org/

"Gray's Guide to Bullying" by Carol Gray (Spring 2004 Jenison Autism Journal)

Abuse is a sign of a lack of social skills. And so the resources that help children and adults with poor social skills are excellent for this.

But that is assuming that the abusers are not sociopaths. A sociopath doesn't want to "get better" or get fixed, or change. Partly because they can't, because they are missing something essential that nobody yet knows how to fix. For this group, the only hope for society, the abused, and the abuser to not abuse again is confinement in jail or some other institution.

I think that the books by M. Scott Peck, M.D. address the larger question of what we need to do as a society to change so that there are fewer abusive people in this world, and to offer hope for them and for us.

"People of the Lie: The Hope for Healing Human Evil" (New York: Simon & Schuster, 1983).

"A World Waiting to be Born: Civility Rediscovered" (New York: Bantam Books, 1993).

"The Different Drum: Community Making and Peace" (New York: Simon & Schuster, 1987).

Peace is the opposite of violence, and love is the opposite of fear. But to love someone who is fear-based is to often put yourself at risk of being the bogey monster that the paranoid thinks is out there amongst us.

To end violence we can't just endlessly study violence. At some point we need to study what peace is and how to expand it to everyone who needs it.

To end fear, we can't just study and discuss fearful topics. We will have to study how to end the isolation that is the breeding ground for things that hide in secrecy and lies and bring them to the light.

Its good to discuss what happens with violence, but we can only help together as a group. And maybe that is why it exists...it will never go away unless we can all work together to make it so.
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 76
Why are there so many abusive people, and is there hope for them?
Posted: 10/11/2009 1:58:56 PM
^^^Of course he was. You know that.

But at least you got it out of the way, and hopefully know what to avoid. Careful though - the really abusive men are incredibly affectionate early on.
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 78
Why are there so many abusive people, and is there hope for them?
Posted: 10/11/2009 2:06:26 PM

I dont think he was an abuser really actually, im not sure, it's like he had no clue he was doing anything wrong at all?! he was angry, but physically a gentle man, he wouldnt have hurt me. I think he had insecurity and abandonment issues.

I wish I could just message you with this:
Abuse is about control. He didn't have to hit you to control you, so he didn't. You still walked around on egg shells and had to go to great lengths to avoid his wrath. He also kept you insecure and dependent.
 Discerning Virtuosa
Joined: 6/10/2008
Msg: 79
Why are there so many abusive people, and is there hope for them?
Posted: 10/11/2009 5:05:30 PM
I do see it, but then i make excuses I suppose for everyone, I see good in everyone, and do excuse people. It's just me I guess.

But I cant reiterate enough, how he REALLY thought he didnt have a problem at all!



When they deny it, it's like they're abusing you a second time.
They take no responsbility for their own actions.

There was some crap in the bible about if you cause someone to sin you are the one headed for hell. My mother would curse and scream a blue streak at me when I was 6 years old, and then quote that stupid crap to me and tell me it was my fault and I was going to hell for it.

So tell me mother - is it hot there?
 Discerning Virtuosa
Joined: 6/10/2008
Msg: 81
Why are there so many abusive people, and is there hope for them?
Posted: 10/11/2009 5:44:39 PM
When people grow up, "normal" and "acceptable" are archetyped by that which they are exposed to in their upbringing.


That's not true at all. Violent people just use their past to justify their behavior. I grew up with violence and I find it TOTALLY unacceptable. If a boyfriend even so much as raises his voice at me, he's done, and I would never treat anyone the way I was treated growing up. I believe in the golden rule.
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