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 gentalltheway
Joined: 9/9/2006
Msg: 3
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Neoconism Is Alive and WellPage 1 of 7    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7)

As described in the quote above, I am a Neocon. All this time, I figured it was a deragatory term used by lefties. When reading it, I am pleased to say it fits my views and I'm not ashamed to say I am a neocon as described above.


Well then, I would think that you also agree with the REST of the definition from Britanica…right?


U.S. political movement. It originated in the 1960s among conservatives and some liberals who were repelled by or disillusioned with what they viewed as the political and cultural trends of the time, including leftist political radicalism, lack of respect for authority and tradition, and hedonistic and immoral lifestyles.


Hmmm… “lack of respect for authority and tradition, and hedonistic and immoral lifestyles” you cheeky bugger!

There’s more…


Neoconservatives also believe that government policy should respect the importance of traditional institutions such as religion and the family.


And when used at an extreme like some that we know…Nutcases!

Ohhh and there’s more…


Unlike most conservatives of earlier generations, neoconservatives maintain that the United States should take an active role in world affairs, though they are generally suspicious of international institutions, such as the United Nations and the World Court, whose authority could intrude upon American sovereignty or limit the country's freedom to act in its own interests. conservatism.


Well, we certainly have seen just how much active they were in the past 7 years. Also, we also saw how their crooked minds work once this present government remove the US from the World Court and went to the point of threatening smaller countries who were part of it by asking them to stop being a member or will no longer receive money from the US. Yeahhh I can just see how wonderful the “NEOCON’S” are. And let’s not forget the little part where an administration changes laws to protect themselves against any future accusations. WOW…aren’t those NEOCONS just…something else?
“could intrude upon American sovereignty or limit the country's freedom to act in its own interests” Oh please say it aint so!

By the way, you always said that you were neutral…nor conservative or Democrat. Should I conclude that this is just another proof of being nothing more than a pitiful liar?


And, even I, erroneously, thought of it as 'negative'. It's quite positive actually

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight! I can just see how positive it is
 exodusi1
Joined: 8/19/2006
Msg: 9
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Neoconism Is Alive and Well
Posted: 5/20/2008 7:13:47 PM
It is all about profit!

Let's break a country; Iraq.

Let's give no bid contracts: Haliburton.

Let's have a private military: SS, err Blackwater.

The book everyone should read is shock doctrine. That is Neocon policy 101!

I am proud to be a Liberal. I stand for those who can't. Neocons stand for themselves. Christ was, perhaps, the greatest Liberal of all time. Neocons have false faith and don't EVER act like Christians, despite calling themselves so.

Be afraid. . . That is the Neocon motto. Enjoy your fear?
 exodusi1
Joined: 8/19/2006
Msg: 12
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Neoconism Is Alive and Well
Posted: 5/20/2008 10:06:57 PM
Jedi;

I guess that means no?

According to the bible; he fed the hungry

Jesus himself cared for those in need by feeding the hungry. Crowds of four thousand (Mark 8:1-13) and five thousand (Mark 6:30-44) had assembled to listen to Jesus. They soon became hungry. When his disciples suggested that Jesus send the people away to buy food, he responded by saying "I have compassion on these people..." and "you give them something to eat." He proceeded to perform miracles to feed these large crowds of hungry people.

By the way, Jesus NEVER said he was the son of God. He ALWAYS said he was: "the son of man!"

He was a Liberal. He would most certainly be offended by all of those right wingers using his name!
 oldkid
Joined: 7/3/2006
Msg: 15
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Posted: 5/21/2008 6:42:06 AM
Thank you Jedi Girl for starting this forum, it has been an interesting read and some insight into the beliefs of some of the posters.

While I cannot agree with all the tenants of neoconism as identified in the postings, I also am more closely aligned with neoconism than liberalism. My parents raised me on the belief that being honest and working hard would produce great success in life. While it has produced financial and other material successes, it has been a little hard on relationships; seems like a good career and a good relationship don't mix well.

Each of us has our own belief structure and we make most of the decisions in our lives based on that. These beliefs may change as we age and go through various stages and experiences in our lives but they still are the guides we use. While I have become more aware of the societal problems identified by liberals, I cannot support the solutions they campaign for. More government control and interference with our lives is NOT and never will be the solution to these problems.

The biggest problem I have with people representing both ends of the political spectrum is their unwillingness to actually sit down and try to find acceptable solutions to our problems. I guess I spent to many years in a technical world where working together in problem solving was the only way to move forward; seems like most of todays politicians haven't learned that lesson. A perfect example of this is the immigration proposal crafted by McCain and Kennedy; the right thought it was amnesty and the left wanted instant citizenship for illegals - end result: not a damn thing accomplished!!!!!! I happen to believe there is a way to make progress on any problem and personal agendas, political posturing or ego do not have a place in those discussions.
 exodusi1
Joined: 8/19/2006
Msg: 17
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Neoconism Is Alive and Well
Posted: 5/21/2008 10:47:33 AM
Trapper;

You have ABSOLUTELY NO understanding of Iraq!

Saddam DID NOT attack us.

Was not associated with Al Queda!

Did kill many of his citizens, but fewer than 10% of the ones killed by OUR invasion and occupation!

Your party is INSANE!
 NwMke
Joined: 8/1/2007
Msg: 20
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Posted: 5/21/2008 12:01:59 PM
.

Would like to hear from Lefties as to why those aspects are wrong.


I am not a leftie but a middlieee.

Simple answer because that little definition no where near approaches the realities of neocons in practice.


http://forums.plentyoffish.com/9891687datingPostpage7.aspx


The Neocon Agenda
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4MdyJDnSoI

Does that fit the definition?

The little plane crash clip they show here is a slomo snap of it:

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o296/nine_one_one/wtc2originalfootage3.jpg

kool huh?



I like stop hates comments;
Guess what, guess what!

Did you know that the neo-cons Robert Kagan and William Kristol are both advisers to McCain, and BOTH also co-founded the Project for New American Century.

Who is among McCain's advisers?
William Kristol AND Robert Kagan, THE Co-Founders of Project for New American Century.

McCain is turning neo-conservative, Yes he is yes he is, McCain is turning neo-con, I really really think so.

----------------------


Excerpts:

However, Brzezinski added, American democracy posed an obstacle:

America is too democratic at home to be autocratic abroad. This limits the use of America’s power, especially its capacity for military intimidation. . . . The economic self-denial (that is, defense spending) and the human sacrifice (casualties even among professional soldiers) required in the effort are uncongenial to democratic instincts. Democracy is inimical to imperial mobilization.106

Brzezinski, however, then suggested a way in which this obstacle could be overcome. Having said that in the United States “the pursuit of power is not a goal that commands popular passion,” he then added: “except in conditions of a sudden threat or challenge to the public’s sense of domestic well being.”107 The American people would be willing to make the economic and human sacrifices needed for “imperial mobilization,” he suggested, if there were “a truly massive and widely perceived direct external threat.”108 The kind of threat he had in mind was suggested by his statement, earlier in the book, that the public was willing to support “America’s engagement in World War II largely because of the shock effect of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.”109

It is possible that Brzezinski’s discussion here inspired the statement about a “new Pearl Harbor” in PNAC’s 2000 document, which can be read as a call for a false-flag operation that would provide a pretext for turning PNAC’s agenda into official policy. The plausibility of this reading was increased, moreover, by a statement made by Brzezinski’s during his warning, in testimony to the Senate Foreign Relations Committee on February 1, 2007, that a “head-on conflict with Iran and with much of the world of Islam at large” was the likely outcome of the US frustration in Iraq. “A plausible scenario for a military collision with Iran,” Brzezinski suggested, involves “a terrorist act in the U.S. blamed on Iran; culminating in a ‘defensive’ U.S. military action against Iran.” Adding that a “mythical historical narrative” for an expanded attack on Islamic countries “is already being articulated,” Brzezinski said that “9/11 [is being presented] as the equivalent of the Pearl Harbor attack.”110

Until the attacks of 9/11, however, no one had found “a way to do it.” As neocon Kenneth Adelman has said: “At the beginning of the administration people were talking about Iraq but it wasn’t doable. . . . That changed with September 11.”132 Bob Woodward makes the same observation in Bush at War, saying: “The terrorist attacks of September 11 gave the U.S. a new window to go after Hussein.”133

The attacks of 9/11 allowed the imperialist agenda of leading neoconservatives to be implemented.

Many people, to be sure, feel that there is no need to examine the evidence that the attacks were arranged by members of the Bush administration because they feel certain, on a priori grounds, that it simply would not have done such a thing. Having addressed most of those grounds elsewhere,150 I have here dealt with only one of them, which is often phrased as a rhetorical question: What motive could they possibly have had for arranging attacks on their own citizens?

Having suggested that the motive was to have a pretext to turn the neocon agenda into national policy, I should add that it is probably only the neocons in office, and even only some of them, who should be suspected of involvement in the planning for 9/11. To say that 9/11 allowed the agenda of the neocons in general to be implemented does not imply that many or even any neocons outside the government were involved in the planning for, or even had advance knowledge of, the attacks of 9/11. About eight months after 9/11, for example, William Kristol and Robert Kagan wrote pieces urging the Bush-Cheney administration to undertake an investigation to see if the attacks might have been prevented. Gary Dorrien, reporting that this call “earned a sharp rebuke from Cheney,” adds that “the Bush administration had no intention of allowing an investigation on that subject.”151

No genuine investigation has been carried out to this day.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article17194.htm



U.S. Department of Defense
Office of the Assistant Secretary of Defense (Public Affairs)
Secretary Rumsfeld Interview with Parade Magazine



Rumsfeld: Well, I was sitting here and the building was struck, and you could feel the impact of it very clearly,

Rumsfeld: There were lots of warnings. The intelligence information that we get, it sometimes runs into the hundreds of alerts or pieces of intelligence a week.

Rumsfeld: Here we're talking about plastic knives and using an American Airlines flight filed with our citizens, and the missile to damage this building (the pentagon) and similar (inaudible) that damaged the World Trade Center. The only way to deal with this problem is by taking the battle to the terrorists, wherever they are, and dealing with them.
(edited for brevity)


I would suggest that the neo con agenda is world domination just like hitler and the wtc was nothing more than collateral damage to accomplish that end.

.
 exodusi1
Joined: 8/19/2006
Msg: 22
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Posted: 5/21/2008 12:27:21 PM
Most of America, Including "Middle America," is Liberal, not Conservative and definitely NOT NeoCon!

Notice the 23% approval rating of the idiot in chief? 77% disagree with you!
 NwMke
Joined: 8/1/2007
Msg: 24
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Posted: 5/21/2008 12:36:13 PM
.

Less calories, same great taste.

Bang on MG!

The only problem of course is that the other 2 are no better.
.
 _JAFO_
Joined: 11/9/2007
Msg: 25
Neoconism Is Alive and Well
Posted: 5/21/2008 12:38:14 PM
<------------(slowly slides right foot out towards Jedi and 17456 to edge closer shaking with fear hoping she too won't be attacked by the self righteous)

I'm not ashamed to advocate a free market economy with minimum taxation and government economic regulation.

I'm not ashamed to advocate strict limits on government-provided social-welfare programs

I'm not ashamed to advocate a strong military supported by large defense budgets.

A while back I was in the car with a friend driving out of his exclusive neighborhood. As we pulled up to a stop sign on the outside edge of the neighborhood an old vintage Cadillac--the style that was often referred to as boats--rounded the corner and painted across the trunk was the statement in huge letters "when do I get my million dollar home?"

That said it all
 exodusi1
Joined: 8/19/2006
Msg: 28
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Posted: 5/21/2008 1:07:31 PM
No, its barely Democratic, but it will be more so soon. Two down, 50 to go!
 exodusi1
Joined: 8/19/2006
Msg: 29
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Posted: 5/21/2008 3:33:36 PM
Congressional Democrats are FAR higher in support from the public than their counterparts. The only thing making the public angry with them, is their inability to stop the shrub regime.
 tallskier
Joined: 5/20/2005
Msg: 30
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Posted: 5/21/2008 5:48:17 PM

Read Strauss, unlike Jedi HE is the one whose philosophy the neo cons are studying. He is the father of the movement.


MG has read Strauss, therefore we all must have.

MG believes Strauss is the father of neoconism, therefore, everyone who resembles a neocon to MG must follow Strauss.

Interesting "logic".
 exodusi1
Joined: 8/19/2006
Msg: 32
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Posted: 5/21/2008 5:54:07 PM
Maybe we're wrong MG, maybe Neocon is too soft?

How about a new term for the people like Bush, Rove, Cheney et al.

Neocronies?

Kind of a nice ring to it.

You don't have to have a degree in science, to run Nasa, Neocrony.

You can run FEMA if you've run a horse show Brownie, Neocrony.

Hey, I can almost hear music. . .
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 34
Neoconism Is Alive and Well
Posted: 5/22/2008 8:19:13 AM
According to a neat little survey on the Christian Science Monitor website called "Are you a Neocon?", Teddy Roosevelt and Reagan were neocons. However, I think Kristol et al ushered in a new era of that philosophy, as MG is trying to get across. The neocon agenda is neatly summarized in The Project For The New American Century, which was established in 1997. I tried looking for their website, but it seems they haven't been paying their bills! PNAC bankrupt? Tell me it ain't so!

Well, instead I found this:

http://www.oldamericancentury.org/pnac.htm
 gentalltheway
Joined: 9/9/2006
Msg: 36
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Posted: 5/22/2008 12:16:14 PM

I refuse to budge from my stance on the Neocon as described in Britannica

All of it or just what you cherry picked?
 themadfiddler
Joined: 10/16/2006
Msg: 39
Neoconism Is Alive and Well
Posted: 5/22/2008 1:03:04 PM


1) Religion is used by the political right as a justification. At the same time, "family values" and morality don't apply to Republicans.

tap, tap,tap....

Clinton's accusers, many of them (and that included religious people) all were having affairs as they picked up that stone to throw at him.

2) Fear is used as a weapon on the American public. Kerry's numbers rose in 2004, and suddenly there was a terror alert. The timing was remarkable.

Smoking guns and mushroom clouds.... Iraq, Sept 11th, Iraq, Sept. 11th.

3) Deception on the situation, through the noble lie.


These are the cornerstones of the Straussian view of the Neoconservative movement/ideology. If the Britannica definition doesn't include them, it is simply softsoaping it or is wrong. Strauss is essentially one of the founders of Neo-Conservative thought. It emerges from his views which, in an almost frighteningly similar way to Leni Riefenstahl's aesthetic, depict a mythic good vs. evil struggle in high relief that emerges from the pedestrian source of Strauss's fascination with TV's "Gunsmoke."

"Perpetual War for Perpetual Peace" is one of the basic mottos of the Neo-Conservative movement and constantly having a "black hat" mythologized as an agency of evil to fight against regardless of any real evil they might be to constantly maintain a level of "war footing" and thus "war economics" to maintain the machine that feeds the military industrial complex...good for the economy, thousand points of light, stay the course.

Of course it is not news to anyone that Strauss' star pupil, Wolfowitz has been working in the White House, behind the scenes, since Ford. He has had with him, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and others, also working to produce this white hat vs. black hat image that for the duration of the Cold War was Us vs. The Soviets, which was started by Truman and is now the "War On Terror."

I would hardly want to be identified with, nor self identified with these shysters...their only ideology is one of $$$ And the take the hindmost.
 gentalltheway
Joined: 9/9/2006
Msg: 41
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Posted: 5/22/2008 2:30:12 PM

I pointed out the roots of Neocon... not some updated PCism it's being given now. That isn't cherry picking.


You pointed out a small part of Britannica’s definition. In fact, you intentionally left out the not so good part of it which is...cherry picking. Nice try though.
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 43
Neoconism Is Alive and Well
Posted: 5/22/2008 2:51:26 PM
If you call yourself a neocon, I'm a little surprised you haven't already checked out The Project For A New American Century website in the past. As I said, the PNAC website seems to be defunct for now, and it is difficult to find positive spins on the organization. Take that as you will.

I posted the "Old American Century" website with tongue planted in cheek...
 exodusi1
Joined: 8/19/2006
Msg: 44
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Posted: 5/22/2008 5:28:56 PM
Nice rhetoric Trapper, but not accurate!

We have no superpower enemies! None!

If the rest of the world combined to try to attack us, we would have air superiority within hours. The F-15 Eagle is 102-0 in air to air combat. There is only one plane in the world that can shoot it down: the F-22 Raptor. There wouldn't be a plane in the air that wasn't our's in hours.

The M1-A1 Abrhams Tank destroyed at a kill ratio of 500-1 in Desert Storm against Soviet Tanks. Combine that with Unlimited air attacks from A-10 Warthogs and Apache Helicoptors and the Kill ratio goes up to 2000-1.

No, what we need to fear is ignorance in leadership like Bush, who attacks the wrong country fueling hatred towards America. Inventing enemies is counterproductive, unless you have stock in the industrial military complex.

It is no longer feasible for a country like Iran, China, etc. to build tech weapons that have no chance of working. It is far more cost effective to pay for small groups of terrorists to subvert from the fringes.

Your idiot in chief and the ignorant policies of hatred, greed and power have left us in a dangerous position. It is going to take a lot to overcome the destructive policies of the so-called conservatives. History will not look kindly upon your kind.

No, this isn't the 60s, but it isn't the 50s either, so enough with the facist Mcarthism sentiment. Communists aren't the enemy to freedom, it is the Facists like the current administration!
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 46
Neoconism Is Alive and Well
Posted: 5/22/2008 8:17:22 PM
Wikipedia has a pretty comprehensive and well-rounded article on the subject:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoconservatism

The salient point being overlooked by the self-professed neocons here is this:

Neoconservatism emphasizes foreign policy as the paramount responsibility of government, maintaining that America's role as the world's sole superpower is indispensable to establishing and maintaining global order.
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 49
Neoconism Is Alive and Well
Posted: 5/22/2008 8:40:50 PM
First of all, I don't see why ya'll object at what I quoted. Second of all, I don't use anything as a sole source. Third of all, it's easy to tell you two neoconnies haven't even read the damned thing. Fourth of all, I said the article was well-balanced. Fifth of all, I often read things from suspect sources just to see how many holes I can poke through them. Much of it is from my own family. Sixth of all, I disagree that wikipedia should be dismissed out of hand. That is classic letting one bad apple spoil the bunch, throwing out the baby with the bathwater, etc. thinking.
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 51
Neoconism Is Alive and Well
Posted: 5/22/2008 9:15:44 PM
Woops! I just noted that xnerox linked the same wiki article waaaay back in post 5. Where were you "Neoconnettes" then? He seemed to think it was well done also. See, I don't put anything in the Holy Grail of complete accuracy. Not Brittannica, not anything. Wiki strikes me as generally accurate as anything out there. We're not exactly tossing around names and dates here anyways. We're talking ideology-- and we're not being tested on it in class on Monday, either. I'm just not aboard the wiki demonization bandwagon that is so hip on these forums. Maybe a thread on wiki accuracy? Starting with the wiki article on wiki's accuracy?
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 53
Neoconism Is Alive and Well
Posted: 5/22/2008 9:33:00 PM
Actually, I would rather wear a t-shirt that says: "Trust but verify" or "Don't take my word for it; look it up!" or one with a bathtub being upended out a window with a baby flying out saying "Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater!" or "If I don't look good, have another beer."
 exodusi1
Joined: 8/19/2006
Msg: 54
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Posted: 5/22/2008 9:35:28 PM
Make that two. . . MG, that was friggin' funny!
 exodusi1
Joined: 8/19/2006
Msg: 55
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Neoconism Is Alive and Well
Posted: 5/22/2008 9:45:56 PM
How about we meet halfway?

Make it pink. . . Real men aren't afraid to wear pink.
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