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Joined: 9/9/2006
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What is a terrorist?Page 1 of 1    
Hmmm...this should be interesting!
Joined: 8/1/2007
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What is a terrorist?
Posted: 5/22/2008 12:53:36 PM
Criminal Justice
Summaries of Crime-Related Terrorism State Enactments

Criminal Justice Menu Page

Updated - January 21, 2003 -- Note: These are 2002 enactments unless otherwise noted.

Alabama H 38

"Anti-Terrorism Act of 2002," creates Class A, B and C felony crimes of terrorism when specified offenses are committed with the intent to intimidate or coerce a civilian population, influence the policy of a unit of government by intimidation or coercion, or affect the conduct of a unit of government by murder, assassination or kidnapping. Also creates felony offenses related to providing materials support or resources or rendering criminal assistance to terrorism, and hindering prosecution of terrorism.

Alaska H 350

Adds terroristic threatening and criminal mischief in the first degree to serious felony offenses. Includes in criminal mischief acts impairing utility services, damaging property in an amount exceeding $100,000, or tampering with an airplane, helicopter, or with food, air or water with the intent to cause physical injury. Terroristic threatening includes false reporting that causes evacuation of a public building, place or mode or public transportation, or false reporting that a harmful substance has been sent or is present in such a place.

Arizona S 1427

Classifies as felony murder any act of terrorism that causes death. Modifies the crime of terrorism to include felony acts involving weapons of mass destruction, and any act that facilitates, aids, finances or conceals terrorist activity. Modifies the crime of misconduct involving weapons to include possession or control of a deadly weapon during an act of terrorism. Makes hindering prosecution of an act of terrorism a Class 3 or Class 5 felony. Exempts acts of terrorism from statutory time limitations on filing criminal charges. Establishes a new crime of terrorism hoax, making it a Class 4 felony and giving courts discretion to hold the offender liable for expenses related to a hoax. Also addresses suspicious financial transactions and creates exceptions to liability for eavesdropping.

California A 2018

"Public Safety Communications Act of 2002," charges the state's Public Safety Radio Strategic Planning Committee with responsibility for developing and implementing a statewide integrated public safety communications system for state government agencies that facilitates interoperability and other shared uses of public safety spectrum with local and federal agencies.

California A 2072

Allows an exemption to the state's open meetings law to close sessions that consider matters posing a threat or potential threat of criminal or terrorist activity against state personnel, property, equipment, etc.

California A 2105

Requires people convicted of terrorist activity with weapons of mass destruction to provide a DNA sample for the state database.

California A 2106

Concerns jurisdiction for offenses, providing territorial jurisdiction over charges relating to weapons of mass destruction in the courts of any of the territories in which one of the offenses occurred, if the offenses are part of a single scheme or terrorist attack.

California S 551 (of 2001)

Provided in an urgency measure a $1 million, one-time allocation to the New York Victim compensation program.

California S 1267

Expands the law regarding facsimile bombs or false reports of bombs, to include sending or placing false or facsimile weapons of mass destruction with the intent to cause another to fear his or her safety. Makes a person convicted of such a felony offense liable for response costs.

California S 1873

Permits the state Victim Compensation and Claims Board to authorize payments to family members of victims of the World Trade Center terrorist attacks, Pentagon and in Pennsylvania for wages and other losses as a result of September 11, 2001.

Connecticut H 5759

Creates the act of terrorism when one commits a felony involving the unlawful use or threatened use of physical force or violence with intent to intimidate or coerce the civilian population or a unit of government. Enhances the penalty to the next more serious degree of felony. Also creates felony offenses related to using a chemical or biological weapon of destruction; hindering prosecution of terrorist crimes; damaging public transportation or contaminating water or food supply with terrorist intent; committing computer crime in furtherance of a terrorist purpose; concealing or falsifying statements related to terrorism; rendering criminal assistance; and threatening with the intent to terrorize and cause evacuation of a building, place of assembly or public transportation. Allows state's attorneys to apply for a judicial order authorizing interception of wire communication in investigations that have evidence of terrorist acts.

Delaware H 343

Adds Delaware residents who are victim to a terrorist act in the United States to those eligible for benefits from the Delaware Violent Crimes Compensation Board.

Delaware S 288

Adds the offense of causing an individual to believe he has been exposed to a harmful substance to the definition of "terroristic threatening," and enhances the penalty for such threats. Upgrades from misdemeanor to a felony repeat offenses of false statements or reports that result in evacuation of buildings, a place of assembly or public transportation.

District of Columbia Bill 14-373

Creates the crime of terrorism, defined as an acts or acts intended to intimidate or coerce a significant portion of the population, or influence the policy or conduct by intimidation or coercion. Also creates crimes of providing material support or resources for an act of terrorism, and the solicitation of material support to commit an act of terrorism. Provides that murder committed as an act of terrorism, by possessing, manufacturing or using a weapon of mass destruction, is punishable by mandatory life imprisonment without the possibility of release. Adds firefighters, emergency medical technicians, and paramedics to public safety employees for which murder requires a life sentence. Adds these crimes to "crimes of violence," and requires DNA sample of persons convicted under this act. Penalizes hoax weapons and false or fictitious reports, and enhances penalties for such acts that occur during a state of emergency.

Florida S 8 (of 2001)

Adds acts of terrorism or in furtherance of terrorism to felony murder law, which could be a capital offense, and enhances to the next higher felony degree other crimes that facilitate terrorism.

Florida S 6C (of 2001)

Defines terrorism as any activity that involves a violent, dangerous or computer act intended to intimidate, injure or coerce a civilian population, influence a government or affect the conduct of government through destruction of property, assassination, murder, kidnapping or aircraft piracy. Adds aircraft piracy to the crimes for which pretrial detention is authorized.

Florida S 26C (of 2001)

Creates the Florida Domestic Security & Counter-Terrorism Intelligence Center within the Florida Department of Law Enforcement. Creates the Domestic Security & Counter-Terrorism Database within the intelligence center for gathering and analyzing active criminal intelligence and investigative information related to terrorism. Requires the database be capable of performing data review that may reveal patterns, trends and correlations indicative of potential or actual terrorism activity. Makes database information available to federal, state and local law enforcement agencies, and prosecutors, as allowed by state or federal law or rule.

Florida S 998

Makes false reports concerning weapons of mass destruction and planting a hoax bomb second-degree felonies. Also holds convicted offenders responsible for restitution to cover state and local costs that arise from such criminal conduct.

Florida H 1427

Adds events involving an act of local terrorism or a national terrorism alert to exception to bonding requirements to allow sheriffs to appoint special deputy sheriffs.

Georgia S 320

"Georgia Homeland Defense Act" defines domestic terrorism as injuring or killing 10 or more people as part of a single act and intended to intimidate a civilian population, or government. Requires the maximum sentence and fine and, in a death penalty case, includes domestic terrorism as an aggravating circumstance. Adds activities related to domestic terrorism to racketeering law.

Georgia S 459

Expands to certain terrorism-related investigations the authority to seek a warrant for interception of wire or oral communications. Expands circumstances under which providers of electronic communication service or remote computing must provide transactional records for law enforcement purposes.

Idaho S 1348

Defines weapons of mass destruction, and biological and chemical weapons, and makes it a felony punishable by a sentence of up to life for willfully using, threatening, conspiring or attempting to use such weapons. Adds acts of terrorism to first-degree murder provisions, and to acts chargeable or indictable as racketeering.

Indiana H 1001

Establishes the counterterrorism and security council. Authorizes bonds and creates service charges to fund an integrated wireless public safety communications system. Establishes or enhances various criminal penalties for disorderly conduct at airports, use of the identity of another person with the intent to commit terrorism or to obtain a weapon of mass destruction, money laundering with the intent to further terrorism, and dissemination of a substance with the intent to cause a person to believe that the substance is a weapons of mass destruction. Allows vehicles, money or other assets to be seized if used in the commission of certain offenses as part of an act of terrorism and requires the seized assets to be deposited in the state's general fund.

Iowa S 2146

Defines terrorism as an act intended to intimidate or coerce a civilian population, or to influence government policy by force or violence and makes such acts, or attempts, a Class B felony with a sentence of imprisonment of up to 50 years. Also makes it a Class B or C felony to provide material support or resources to those who commit or attempt to commit terrorism. Makes criminal assistance to another person who commits terrorism that results in murder a Class B felony. Makes threats of terrorism a Class D felony. Also creates crimes of "intimidation with a dangerous weapon" when with intent to injure or provoke fear one shoots, throws, launches or discharges a dangerous weapon at or into a building, vehicle, airplane, railroad car or engine, or boat, occupied by another person or a group of people.

Louisiana H 53

Creates the crime of terrorism, which is the commission of acts that kill, injure, kidnap, constitute arson or damage property and which are carried out with the intent to intimidate or coerce civilian populations or influence policy or conduct of a unit of government. Sets terms, including up to life imprisonment, for various acts. Also creates the crime of providing material support or resources to aid acts of terrorism and hindering the prosecution of terrorism. Sets penalties of 10 to 50 years. Adds communications related to terrorism to those for which the attorney general is authorized to request interception of wire or oral communications. Excludes records of criminal intelligence pertaining to terrorist-related activities, or vulnerability assessments and security plans from public disclosure.

Maine S 801

Creates the Class A crime of terrorism when, with terroristic intent, one seriously injures another or causes risk of such injury, or when one damages structures or critical infrastructure. Creates the crime of terrorist murder, requiring a life sentence and adding it to those for which the statute of limitations does not apply. Creates the Class A crime of criminal possession or use of a weapon of mass destruction. Expands the crime of causing a catastrophe with chemical or biological toxins. Creates a Class B crime for terrorist threats.

Maryland H 1265

Establishes the State Commission on Public Safety Technology and Critical Infrastructure to ensure that communication and information management systems maintained by public safety and other governmental units are compatible.

Massachusetts S 2122

Establishes the crime of communicating a terrorist threat by various means. Threats include mention that weapons, explosives, dangerous chemical or biological substances are in place and will be used or that a hijacking of aircraft, ship or common carrier will occur. To be a criminal threat it must cause evacuation or disruption of schools, transportation or places of assembly. Sets sentences and fines. Also requires restitution by a convicted offender for costs, damages and financial losses incurred by local, county or state public safety agencies as a result of the threat.

Michigan S 930, 936, 942, 948, 949, 995, 996, 997 and H 5513

Addresses terrorism in the criminal code. The Michigan Anti-Terrorism Act (S 930) creates criminal penalties for an "act of terrorism" defined as a violent felony intended to intimidate or coerce a civilian population or influence or affect the conduct of a government. Knowingly committing an act of terrorism is a felony punishable by imprisonment for any term up to life and a maximum fine of $100,000. Such an act causing death requires a life sentence without eligibility for parole. Prohibits and punishes knowingly providing material support or resources for acts of terrorism; making a terrorist threat; falsely communicating a terrorist threat; and hindering prosecution of terrorism. Other enactments provide criminal penalties for use of the Internet to disrupt functions of the state; eliminate the statute of limitations for acts of terrorism punishable by a life sentence; and hold offenders financially responsible for certain terrorist acts related to explosives, bombs or other harmful devices. Another measure adds acts of terrorism to predicate offenses to constitute racketeering under Michigan penal code; and another includes acts of terrorism under forfeiture or seizure provisions.

Minnesota H 2515

Establishes the Homeland Security Advisory Council, consisting of various law enforcement, public safety, emergency, medical, agriculture and government and private sector officials. Authorizes county public debt to design, construct, acquire public safety communication system infrastructure and equipment. Creates a regionwide public safety radio communications system, and planning committee to develop a project plan. Adds terrorism to the definition of first degree murder. Sets up to a 10 year sentence and a fine of up to $20,000 for damage to physical property of critical public service facility, utility or pipeline with the intent to disrupt operation. Establishes penalties for trespassing on such property. Also sets up to a 20-year sentence and a fine of up to $100,000 for manufacturing, acquiring, possessing or making accessible to another a biological or chemical weapon of mass destruction. Also sets a statutory maximum of 50 percent longer prison term than the underlying crime for any felony crime carried out in furtherance of terrorism. Makes related appropriations.

Mississippi S 2518

Makes it a felony punishable by up to 20 years and $100,000 to knowingly possess, manufacture, bring or send into the state a harmful biological substance with the intent to cause harm to human, animal or plant life.

Nebraska L 82

Creates the criminal offense of placing a false bomb and threatening with a false bomb.

New Jersey A 911/S 775

The September 11, 2001 Anti-Terrorism Act defines first degree crime of terrorism as committing, attempting, conspiring or promoting an act of terror against five or more people or influencing the policy or conduct of government by terror. Sets a mandatory sentence of 30 years, including a mandatory life sentence for violations that result in death. Adds terrorism to murder law and adds murdering more than one person as an aggravating factor in considering a death sentence. Also creates a first-degree crime related to producing or possessing chemical weapons, biological agents or nuclear or radiological devices for use as a weapon, also with 30 years to life mandatory terms. Criminalizes actions that provide material support or resources for terrorism; allows the interception of wire, electronic or oral communications in law enforcement investigations; and adds terrorism to "racketeering activity" law. Establishes no statute of limitations for prosecution of terrorism crimes. Amends the law regarding "terrorist threats" and "false public alarms" to include a crime in the second or first degree for such actions that take place during a declared period of national, state or county emergency.

New York A 6002 and S 70002 (of 2001)

Adds murder in furtherance of a terrorist act to the list of capital crimes.

New York S 7356

Enacts the September 11 Victim and Families Relief Act to help victims of the terrorist attacks and their families or representatives in making workers' compensation claims, probating estates, and collecting funds from the victims' compensation fund.

North Carolina S 1108 (2001)

Makes it a felony punishable by 20 years to life without parole for the unlawful manufacture, assembly, possession, storage, transportation, sale, delivery or acquisition of a chemical or biological weapon of mass destruction. Provides a sentence of life without parole for use of such a weapon that injures another person, and 20 years to life for attempts to injure. Makes false reporting of a weapon of mass destruction a felony punishable by five to 10 years. Adds murder by means of a weapon of mass destruction to first degree murder, a Class A felony punishable by death or life without parole.

Ohio S 184

Creates terrorism offenses as acts with the purpose to intimidate or coerce a civilian population or influence the policy or conduct of government by specified offenses. Includes actions that raise, collect or provide material support or resources with the purpose that such be used to aid in, prepare for or carry out terrorism; and prohibits terrorist threats. Makes terrorist offenses one degree higher than the most serious underlying specified offense, with penalties up to and including life without parole or the death penalty. Includes terrorism as an aggravating circumstance in determining a death sentence. Expands the offense of "obstructing justice" to include hindering discovery, apprehension or prosecution related to acts of terrorism. Also holds offenders accountable for the costs of investigation and prosecution of acts supporting terrorism, threatening terrorism or obstructing justice. Expands contamination law to also prohibit and provide penalties for contamination or false reports of contamination with hazardous chemical, biological or radioactive substances. Expands communications interception law to include terrorism offenses; adds terrorism offenses to corrupt activity law; and expands the definition of "contraband" to include property that is used as material support or resources for terrorism. Excludes security and infrastructure records from public disclosure. Addresses the coordination of state and local emergency management.

Ohio H 411

Enhances penalties to third and fourth degree felonies for inducing panic and making false threats and actions related to a weapon of mass destruction. Expands the definition of economic cost related to such actions for which offenders may be held accountable.

Oklahoma S 822

The Oklahoma Anti-terrorism Act defines terrorism as an act of violence resulting in damage to property or personal injury perpetrated to coerce a civilian population into granting illegal political or economic demands; or conduct intended to incite violence in order to create apprehension of bodily injury, property damage or coercion. Makes every act of terrorism a felony and makes a person who causes the death of another in an act of terrorism guilty of first-degree murder. Defines a terrorism hoax and sets penalty for up to 10 years and restitution for costs associated with the hoax. Makes conspiracy to commit terrorism punishable by up to a life term; and also penalizes terrorist activity that aids or abets terrorism. Also defines and sets penalties for biochemical assault, and makes it a felony to manufacture, deliver or possess a chemical or biological substance with the intent of engaging in terrorist activity.

Oklahoma S 1472

Creates misdemeanor and felony crimes and penalties for tampering with or disabling a security or surveillance camera or system.

Pennsylvania S 1109

Makes offenders who commit terroristic threats responsible for restitution related to the costs of fire, police and other emergency response. Upgrades from a misdemeanor to a felony threats that evacuate buildings or places of assembly or divert public transportation. Creates misdemeanor and felony offenses of threat to use weapons of mass destruction, and also holds offenders accountable for fire, police and other emergency response. Expands definition of bombs, as related to bomb threats, to include various biological and chemical agents. Creates crimes of unlawful possession, manufacture and use of weapons of mass destruction, with second- and first-degree felony penalties. Upgrades to a felony for false alarms to agencies of public safety that occur during a declared state of emergency if the false alarm causes the resources of the agency to be diverted. Creates felony crimes related to facsimile weapons of mass destruction, including holding offenders responsible for costs.

South Carolina H 4416

The South Carolina Homeland Security Act includes definitions of terrorism as dangerous acts intended to intimidate or coerce a civilian population or influence the policy of government by intimidation, coercion or by mass destruction, assassination or kidnapping. Also defines weapons of mass destruction to include various biological and chemical toxins. Makes possession, use and conspiracy to use a weapon of mass destruction that results in death punishable by death or by life imprisonment. Penalizes such acts not resulting in death to terms of 25 years to life. Makes terrorist related threats punishable by up to 15 years, and hoax actions or devices punishable by two to 15 years. Makes false reporting related to terrorist acts a crime punishable by one to 15 years. Sets protocol for interception of wire, electronic or oral communications.

South Dakota S 19

Defines acts of terrorism as violent or dangerous acts intended to intimidate or coerce a civilian population, influence the policy or conduct of government and substantially impair or interrupt public communications, transportation, utilities or services. Makes acts of terrorism a Class A felony, punishable by death or life imprisonment.

South Dakota H 1305

Provides criminal penalties for threats and hoax threats related to destructive devices or substances. Makes various actions Class 4, 5 or 6 felonies. Also allows people found guilty to be ordered to make restitution to local county or state public service agencies for the costs incurred in response to such actions.

Tennessee H 3232

The Terrorism Prevention and Response Act of 2002 creates Class A felony of acts of terrorism that include intimidating or coercing a civilian population, seeking to influence the policy of government by intimidation or coercion, or affecting the conduct of a unit of government by murder, assassination, torture, kidnapping or mass destruction. Defines the use of a weapon of mass destruction as various chemical, biological or hazardous material. Creates a Class B felony of providing material support or resources in support of terrorism, and a Class C felony for hoax actions related to terrorism. Amends the definition of first degree murder, which makes it eligible as a capital crime, to include killing in perpetration of an act of terrorism. Adds to the authority of bureau of investigation to use certain intelligence information pertaining to domestic terrorism.

Utah H 283

Creates felony and misdemeanor crimes of terrorist threats. The crimes include threats involving bodily injury, death or substantial property damage and threats to use a weapon of mass destruction or hoax weapon with the intent to intimidate or coerce a civilian population or to influence or affect the conduct of a government or unit of government. Threats include placing people in fear of injury or death or preventing occupation of a building, portion of a building or vehicle. Makes people convicted of such threats responsible for the resulting expenses and losses. Adds terrorist threats to crimes that may form a pattern of unlawful enterprise activity. Adds murder by means of a weapon of mass destruction to the definition of aggravated murder. Makes causing a catastrophe by use of a weapon of mass destruction that causes widespread injury or damage to people or property a first-degree felony. Also creates a second-degree felony causing a catastrophe by means other than a weapon of mass destruction. Makes those convicted responsible for the resulting expenses. Adds to crime of criminal mischief damaging or destroying "critical infrastructure", which includes information and communication systems, financial and banking systems, transportation, public energy and water, health facilities, emergency fire, medical and law enforcement, food distribution systems, and other government operations and services. Sets second and third degree felonies and a Class A misdemeanor for such acts; holds offenders responsible for resulting expenses. Also sets felony and misdemeanor penalties for false alarms and reports, and holds offenders responsible for resulting expenses. Defines weapons of mass destruction, delivery systems, hoax weapons of mass destruction, toxins. Sets felony penalties for the manufacture, possession, sale or use of a weapon of mass destruction or hoax weapon, and holds convicted offenders responsible for resulting expenses or losses.

Vermont S 298

The Vermont Public Safety Act of 2002 defines crimes related to chemical or biological weapons of mass destruction, and sets penalties of 20 to 30 years of imprisonment and fines up to $250,000 for those who may cause disabling illness or injury. Also penalizes use of such weapons in a form to disrupt food, water, livestock or crops. Also criminalizes hoax weapons and threats, and sets penalties of up to five years in prison and $10,000 fines.

Virginia H 1120

Defines "acts of terrorism" and "weapons of terrorism" and punishes committing, aiding and abetting terrorism, manufacturing and possessing terrorist and hoax devices, and committing bioterrorism. Allows for seizure of property used in connection with or derived from terrorism. Makes murder in furtherance of terrorism a capital crime.

West Virginia S 6002 (2001)

Makes false reports concerning bombs or other explosives a felony crime and allows courts to order an offender to pay for economic harm caused by such an act. Enhances the penalty if such an act results in serious bodily injury. Also creates the crime of threatening or convening false information about a terrorist act, also holding offenders responsible for resulting economic losses.

Wyoming S 61

Expands the definition of "victim" to include victims of domestic terrorism, as related to crime victims' compensation.

For more information, call NCSL's Criminal Justice Program at 303-364-7700. For more information on other state responses to terrorism, see NCSL's Protecting Democracy web site.

Joined: 9/9/2006
Msg: 6
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What is a terrorist?
Posted: 5/22/2008 1:56:07 PM

By definition, terrorists are those, not part of the military of a legitimate nation state, that deliberatley target civilians to achieve the maximum carnage possible to achieve a particular political or social goal

So, how should we classify this?

In an interviews with 60 Minutes, US military acknowledged that field commanders had clearance to call in air strikes on civilian targets, knowing that innocent deaths would likely occur, provided they made what one official described as a "macabre kind of calculus" about whether the "target" was "worth" the likely number of civilian deaths.

By your definition terrorist, that alone sure fits the bill if you ask me.

And what about this?

On the morning of 19 November 2005, U.S. Marines were on their way to Haditha, in northwest Iraq. When they were attacked and later failed to find their attackers, they deliberately and “INDISCRIMINATELY” massacred 24 Iraqi civilians in the Subhani district of Haditha. The victims”range from little babies to adult males and females”. Initially, the U.S. Marines alleged that 15 “insurgents” and civilians were killed in “cross fire”. As usual, the U.S. Marines lied about the massacre and tried to cover it up. It was the video of an Iraqi journalism student from Haditha which prompted the Time to investigate the massacre.

How should we call that? Casualties of war? Those soldiers took upon themselves to create terror acts. You have to wonder how many of such carnage is done without being caught on tape.

Let's try this example…

March 2002
When U.S. warplanes strafed [with AC-130 gunships] the farming village of Chowkar-Karez, 25 miles north of Kandahar on October 22-23rd,killing at least 93 civilians, a Pentagon official said, "the people there are dead because we wanted them dead." The reason? They sympathized with the Taliban1. When asked about the Chowkar incident, Rumsfeld replied, "I cannot deal with that particular village

If that’s not terrorism, I just don’t know what is! Ohh's the military so I guess it must be ok.

This will mean that innocents will die as an inevitable result of human error and judgment

That would be the nice version as seen in north American media. The truth is, civilians are intentionally targeted and there's plenty of proof to back it up!

I can write pages of US participation in direct and indirect terrorism acts. In fact, one that I found to be horrible was when the US through the UN, put in place sanctions against Iraq in 1991. Our media was saying that it was life as usual in Iraq when in fact hundred of thousands were dying…mostly children which goes against the Geneva Convention. To make matters worst, not only did the US knew what would happen, they monitored it!

Saddam was a monster but he couldn't come close to the US in regards to crimes against humanity and terrorism acts.
Joined: 8/1/2007
Msg: 9
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What is a terrorist?
Posted: 5/22/2008 2:25:40 PM

Seems to me, by this definition, the US is pretty guilty.

yup aint that kool? By their own definition, however congress gave them immunity!!! :)

Bush to Give Immunity To Himself - Congress Again Bends Over

There is a kennedy speech out there somewhere too that I do not have time to dig out :)
Joined: 9/9/2006
Msg: 10
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What is a terrorist?
Posted: 5/22/2008 2:57:12 PM

there greatest gifts the US gives to the world are worthless to those who least understand the value of them.

Very poetic. 100% bullshit of course but poetic.
Joined: 8/1/2007
Msg: 14
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What is a terrorist?
Posted: 5/22/2008 5:10:43 PM
depotism, nihilism, imperialism, and a host of other ism's including a constant and growing infringement or inalienable rights. Free speech zones, habeous violations, fisa violations or structuring law to reduce same.
What justifies it? I would htink its a matter of when a person actually works out the numbers and adds licenses taxes permits inflation all up and when they see how they are getting screwed and essentially watch the american dream go up in taxation and interest to the international bankers, which is money one way out of the country for "nothing" in return and not commerce but robbery causing loss of property etc when the reality is to get rid of that system they can again feel good and reach for the stars instead of being oppressed by regs designed to rape the middle class. thats when.

Once people get to that point of understanding that is what will determine when.

Otherwise its when they take the remote and 6 pak away which of course they are smart enough not to do :)
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