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 thatswhatshesaid
Joined: 12/28/2007
Msg: 1
Does anyone use the art of seduction or mystery method on dates?Page 1 of 6    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6)
I'm curious if anyone has ever used an elaborate behavior stategy like mystery method or the art of seduction to initiate a relationship that is anything more than a hookup? What sort of relationships come out of employing such a conscious strategy in relating consistently (not just as a way to break the ice with a stranger).

Guys? Have you ever found a long term girlfriend this way? Ladies? Were you ever involved with a guy who you could tell was taking a page from these strategies in you relationship? Or have you ever adapted them to work on a guy?
 Sweethang100
Joined: 4/22/2005
Msg: 2
Does anyone use the art of seduction or mystery method on dates?
Posted: 6/7/2008 1:01:41 AM
Yes, I've dealt with a few guys that attempted to employ some of the methods used in the various 'seduction' books. Of course, those who use them, don't last long.

1. It's quite evident that they guys use them, especially if you know what to look for.
2. Personally, I found them to be downright annoying, because the fellas who employ the techniques think you don't know. Naturally, you'd have to be an idiot not to realize they're using them.
3. They're definitely not something that you can use in your relationship, longterm.
4. They tend to make men angrier than they already are, because most men don't understand the concepts behind the communications. Many of the guys attempting to use them are bitter and angry and utilize the methods to garner attention. However, the books only work with a specific type of personna, and age-group, and only in the initial attraction stage. After that, the methods are actually damaging to ANY relationship, which most men don't realize.
5. Eventually, the relationship goes down the tube, because it's the same as any game you employ; once the game is played out, only one comes out the winner. Sadly, in its wake, the books creates bitter, angry men who take advantage of unsuspecting, insecure women. Eventually, it comes back to bite the male though, as later, many of these hurt women will get the man back, in one way or another. Sad and vicious little cycle.
 baviaans kloof
Joined: 3/27/2008
Msg: 3
Does anyone use the art of seduction or mystery method on dates?
Posted: 6/7/2008 1:40:34 AM
lol no wonder i am still single.

when did relationships become science experiments? do people really use elaborate behavioural strategies...???

what happened to boy meets girl and they fancy the pants off each other...??
 Loz Hunter
Joined: 7/13/2006
Msg: 4
Does anyone use the art of seduction or mystery method on dates?
Posted: 6/7/2008 1:50:24 AM
FFS now we find there is another game men are playing.

I wish men would realize this is not a game, it is a doorway to meeting people. And if men play these games and get the dates, how do they continue playing the game for the whole relationship, or is the failure down to when they revert to type and are not what they seemed!

But it does explain some of the weird and wonderful messages that make no sense whatsoever.

Still holding out for that normal man.
 angie 46
Joined: 4/27/2008
Msg: 5
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History
Does anyone use the art of seduction or mystery method on dates?
Posted: 6/7/2008 2:03:29 AM
Well if they did it was totally wasted on me
 DazzyB
Joined: 10/9/2006
Msg: 6
Does anyone use the art of seduction or mystery method on dates?
Posted: 6/7/2008 3:28:33 AM
Loz,

I totally agree with you there.

Why can't blokes just be themselves?? Self-Confidence down to media hype I put it to. But then there's the n*bheads who do be themselves but are still only after one thing. Gives us all a bad name!

Dazza.
 genegem
Joined: 7/24/2007
Msg: 7
Does anyone use the art of seduction or mystery method on dates?
Posted: 6/7/2008 3:54:19 AM
“Don't let anyone tell you that you have to be a certain way. Be unique. Be what you feel.”
Melissa Etheridge

“No matter what age you are, or what your circumstances might be, you are special, and
you still have something unique to offer. Your life, because of who you are, has meaning.”
Barbara De Angelis

“Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience
of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.”
Douglas Adams
 HDynasty81
Joined: 3/10/2008
Msg: 8
Does anyone use the art of seduction or mystery method on dates?
Posted: 6/7/2008 4:04:56 AM

1. It's quite evident that they guys use them, especially if you know what to look for.
2. Personally, I found them to be downright annoying, because the fellas who employ the techniques think you don't know. Naturally, you'd have to be an idiot not to realize they're using them.
3. They're definitely not something that you can use in your relationship, longterm.
4. They tend to make men angrier than they already are, because most men don't understand the concepts behind the communications. Many of the guys attempting to use them are bitter and angry and utilize the methods to garner attention. However, the books only work with a specific type of personna, and age-group, and only in the initial attraction stage. After that, the methods are actually damaging to ANY relationship, which most men don't realize.
5. Eventually, the relationship goes down the tube, because it's the same as any game you employ; once the game is played out, only one comes out the winner. Sadly, in its wake, the books creates bitter, angry men who take advantage of unsuspecting, insecure women. Eventually, it comes back to bite the male though, as later, many of these hurt women will get the man back, in one way or another. Sad and vicious little cycle.


From what I can gather about this, it's not meant to be something to use in a relationship, so it's more of getting out there and for some it works and some it may not work. I don't think it's that bad at all frankly considering that the whole "Be yourself" thing doesn't always work especially if being yourself means you're at home eating doritos while watching Star Trek or something.
 eazk
Joined: 9/8/2006
Msg: 9
Does anyone use the art of seduction or mystery method on dates?
Posted: 6/7/2008 8:25:38 AM
Ahhhhh, you girls (and most guys) are SOOOOOOO missing the point.

The purpose of what you call "behavior strategies" is not to seduce the woman, it is to help the boy become more of a man.

Our society has largely stripped away the ability for boys to mature normally, so what you have is a lot of boys who don't know how to communicate, how to act, how to lead, and this is manifested in their relationships with women, although it is significantly evident in their ability to relate to other adult males.

IF YOU TAKE THE TIME to actually go out and observe and understand what some of these "teachers" are saying, you'll soon start to see it's about helping boys learn what is important to them in becoming men, and what it is that women want and seek in relationship...namely, MEN with an edge.

So, if the boys are simply going to acting school, then yes, I agree with SweetThang~...their cover will be blown quickly. BUTTTTT, if they start learning life lessons they should've learned at 15 and they integrate this into who they really are, then what you end up with is a man you'd like to date. This is simply the education these poor young boys didn't get from their dad's or other men in their life.

It's a shame that our society has so transformed that jerks and wusses comprise 90+% of the adult males out there. It wasn't that way when men had to be accountable for their actions...now, everything is a blame game.

As a woman, you can say you don't like the fact that they're being educated...after all, shouldn't this all just be magical? But that is BS...no one instinctively "knows" all the rules...girls are just much better at socializing the analysis at a young age...and the boys are left bewildered and unable to meet their needs. And then you b!tch because they don't know how to sense the right moment that you want them to slide their hand around your waist, to hold and slightly pull your hair while kissing, to brush the back or their hand over your breast as they are raising it to your face to hold your face in their hands when they kiss you...and about a million other things.

Y'all don't willingly offer up instruction manuals, and now you want to kick the boys for trying to learn via a different route. The truth is, you want a man who has power, strength and an ability to make you feel like a woman, but you cannot be the one to empower him otherwise you forever hold the power. So asking him to get to know you first and then maybe you'll teach him the secrets is stupid...and a certain recipe for divorce.

Men need to learn their role in an adult relationship...and Mom's can't teach it to them...Mom's say "Just be nice"...he11, you all say "Looking for a nice man", but what you really want is a man who has an edge, who excites you, who makes your toes curl when you think about him.

Heck, what you ought to be doing is flagging the ones who don't use it and sending them hyperlinks of where to start. We'd have a lot more satisfied women and relationships.

 SKAJ
Joined: 5/29/2008
Msg: 10
Does anyone use the art of seduction or mystery method on dates?
Posted: 6/7/2008 8:30:44 AM
I don't have any friends in real life that subscribe to that particular method of dealing with women, but I do have friends from the internet who swear by it. Most of them were probably pretty anti-social to begin with, and I'm guessing having a 'manual' of sorts gives them a way to be comfortable in a situation where they normally aren't. I personally think at best it's disingenuous, but they assure me that it's not.

I don't think it is really that wide spread though. Most women are pretty observant.
 Solarpanel
Joined: 3/22/2008
Msg: 11
Does anyone use the art of seduction or mystery method on dates?
Posted: 6/7/2008 8:46:00 AM
I've had all the David DeAngelo material (apart from his interviews with gurus stuff) and found it to be very educational - the reason I like his stuff is because it focuses on the man making himself more attractive and not acting 'wussy' - he promotes 'cocky funny' attitude which, if it fits naturally in with your personality, isn't 'false' at all.

I've found his stuff works when I adopt it and I learned some deep stuff about how modern society has affected men's attitudes to the point that men beat themselves up about not 'getting it' - ie how the sexual relationship stuff works. I had more dates in the few months of reading his stuff than I had in my life. DeAngelo teaches men to be laid back and comfortable in their own skin - and like most behaviour if you practice it long enough it's 'you' rather than a learned behaviour.

I have never seduced anyone. I'm only looking for a balanced, loving, long-term relationship and to me seduction has 'false' written all over it.

I've seen the mystery method and although I think it has some important material in there such as 'comfort strategy' to me the idea of men training to seduce women turns it into a cynical exercise in getting something not worth having. Several mystery trainers are experts in teaching others how get 3 in a bed etc and although it's got a glossy image it's still no different from a perv who's addicted to sex not valuing the woman he's with.

I think it's useful for a man to read the stuff and extract those things that are in tune with who he is as individually it's better if we can structure our approach to this 'love' malarky but in a way if you just 'surrender' your personality over to this kind of training what you've really done is given up on finding the real meaning supposedly found in intimate relationships.
 Loz Hunter
Joined: 7/13/2006
Msg: 12
Does anyone use the art of seduction or mystery method on dates?
Posted: 6/7/2008 9:10:08 AM
I have seen the mystery method used too:

And by the time he gets back from his mystery - the woman has buggered off with someone else.

This dating is about real life and real people knowing what you want and how to get it, its not about playing stupid games with peoples feelings.
 MajorThomas
Joined: 2/10/2008
Msg: 13
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History
Does anyone use the art of seduction or mystery method on dates?
Posted: 6/7/2008 1:30:30 PM
mystery method is just commen sense, theres nothing magical about it. its just a lot of guys don't know the basics to approaching women, talking to them and getting beyond the friend zone.

I have no idea why women are so upset with the idea of a guy trying to learn how to be socially adept, when they continuously complain about not being able to find a charming man that sparks any attraction.
 Forum.Skulker
Joined: 11/25/2007
Msg: 14
Does anyone use the art of seduction or mystery method on dates?
Posted: 6/7/2008 1:57:38 PM
Well, if you're doing serious research, here are a few threads. Might take a while to get through all of them, though.

http://forums.plentyoffish.com/datingPosts898092.aspx
http://forums.plentyoffish.com/datingPosts8896103.aspx
http://forums.plentyoffish.com/datingPosts9762811.aspx

Enjoy.
 Forum.Skulker
Joined: 11/25/2007
Msg: 15
Does anyone use the art of seduction or mystery method on dates?
Posted: 6/7/2008 1:59:35 PM
Well, if you're doing serious research, here are a few threads. Might take a while to get through all of them, though.

http://forums.plentyoffish.com/datingPosts898092.aspx
http://forums.plentyoffish.com/datingPosts8896103.aspx
http://forums.plentyoffish.com/datingPosts9762811.aspx

The last link delves a bit into your question:

Guys? Have you ever found a long term girlfriend this way?

Enjoy.
 thatswhatshesaid
Joined: 12/28/2007
Msg: 16
Does anyone use the art of seduction or mystery method on dates?
Posted: 6/7/2008 10:40:43 PM
Thanks all. I indeed had read two of those threads. It's where I heard of NLP and mystery method to begin with. I read some of "the art of seduction" on line too, out of pure curiousity. But that thread veared off in a different direction (lots of name calling) and raised other questions for me, so reposted.

I found the responses, to this thread very interesting, especially from the oldr gentelmen who had more life experience to put the bare method into context. Indeed, the methods must have some value to someone, or be some help, or why would there be a persistent interest.

I am curious about "the art of seduction" in particular and how it breaks women into 9 groups of "victim" types.

Do any of you guys who find some wisdom in what the method teaches worry that it might lead you to be indeed snare a "victim" or is this just a dramatic choice of language to prove a point?
 Callie Steph
Joined: 6/8/2008
Msg: 17
Does anyone use the art of seduction or mystery method on dates?
Posted: 6/11/2008 7:43:40 AM
I actually signed up just because I have a lot to say about this post. First off, I should explain my situation: A couple of days ago I found out that my boyfriend (now a freshly minted ex) had posted a profile on here, and so I was curious about the site.** Said ex was a big participant in that whole seduction community, and we were together for about 2.5 years, so I think I might have some insight to add to the conversation, plus it gives me a chance air some opinions.

Now I do agree that women do not just need a nice guy, just like guys don't just need a nice girl. Everyone is drawn to people who have high self-confidence, who have a life going on, and who are grounded enough to realize that you too (even if you're hot or smart or whatever) are just another person with flaws, and smelly farts, and all the rest.
For those who lack those things, pick-up theory can be a good way to learn methods for faking it. And maybe for some, the faking can also help them discover that they actually have some of that which they just fake at first. (eg, having some success, even with just talking to girls, can heavily boost a guy's self-esteem, so when he does meet a 10 he's genuinely less awed).

That said, I think pick-up is detrimental to building a long-term relationship, but it's not for the reasons you might expect.
I did not mind that my ex had names and methods for certain rapport-building techniques or social games, and didn't even mind when he used them on me. In reality, most people with a healthy and interactive family probably learned very similar strategies naturally. And if he had to learn them online while I deduced them from things my grandma said, who am I to judge?

So why would I not recommend pick-up to guys who are looking to find a quality girl? When apparently pick-up helped this guy get a lot of love from me? It's not what pick up does to girls, it's what it does to the guys who use it.
Even if you make every girl in the room swoon, in the long run, these silly games undermine your confidence in who you are when you’re just yourself. What’s missing in the lessons from DeAngelo versus those from grandma are that grandma is telling you to act like you have high self-esteem (even when feeling low) because she knows you, loves you, and genuinely wants you to love yourself. When D’Angelo tells you to do the same, it is purely a tactic to get attention from people who, if you acted like yourself, wouldn’t deem you worthy of love/attention. The effect on the girl may be the same, but the effect on the guy’s self-image is very different.
At first there will be a rush of pride that you have acquired all these new potent skills, but it undermines your ability to believe in unconditional love, love of your faults and fumblings, and love of your insecurities. You start thinking that even those close to you love you for all the fake things that made you more attractive in a crowded room, and that messes with your sense of self.
This particular ex is only my second boyfriend, and fortunately the first one gave me pretty excellent training in the idea that faults and weaknesses and awkwardness can be loved more deeply than strengths. But this second guy was just unable to progress to that level. Case in point: even after we'd been together for years, he said he would never regret his pickup training because it helped him get me! Do you see the logic of that? He still thought that, even having lived with him and knowing him deeply, that I stuck around because of the bravado act he could turn on sometimes. Also, he would get really hung up on some extremely trivial faults of my own, but I think a lot of it had to do with his own insecurities, his secret thought that people had to fit a certain prescription to be loved. That insecurity is why he had to go hunting for an alternate branch to grab onto before he could let go of the one in hand. And why he lost me.

As for his own story, he's a positive kind of guy, and I'm sure he'll be fine... but two years with me is not what he wanted. And in the end, he did lose me forever. I have my flaws, but most people consider me quite a "catch" in all those mainstream kind of areas. And more importantly, when I choose someone, I have the strength to love them fiercely and with genuine selflessness. Chances are pretty high that he won't be finding someone quite like that again, and it's sad that his old pick-up perspective basically blew his chance.
...And that's what a "successful" pick-up story looks like! So no, I don't recommend you get too far into it.

(**Yes we had had a fight and I had said I did not see a real future for us, but the circumstances made me realize he had very little integrity. For starters, the fight was about his wandering eye, yet he was literally on the phone pledging his devotion while he was fishing on this site. He even had me send him pictures so he could make "a collage of us", but the pics were actually for his dating profiles! And finally, when I found the profile, I essentially gave him a chance to 'fess up, pressing him to answer whether he'd been true to me, but he of course just kept berating me for being so "insecure". Hmmph. Not so insecure that I can't go solo without a net waiting below. And so I jumped.)
 Just_Jay79
Joined: 10/11/2005
Msg: 18
Does anyone use the art of seduction or mystery method on dates?
Posted: 6/11/2008 7:52:02 AM
In today's modern cynical and paranoid times, trying to generate an air of mysterious intrigue about you is more likely to have your date thinking you're a closet serial killer with a truckload of severed heads in your freezer rather than a suave sex-machine...

Life's too short for manipulations, tricks, and elaborate strategies. The only thing you should be planning is a fun and relaxed outing, with a couple of backup places should things go well and the two of you want to extend the evening to a secondary activity...
 *Amaze Me*
Joined: 6/2/2008
Msg: 19
Does anyone use the art of seduction or mystery method on dates?
Posted: 6/11/2008 8:08:42 AM
Eazk hit the nail on the head. These "systems" are more about teaching men to act like men than about how to play a new game. No, this is the original game that has been nearly lost in this world of ours that systematically strips males of their manhood. Women yearn for men to act like men again and men need it for their own well-being.
 grkboy
Joined: 3/20/2008
Msg: 20
Does anyone use the art of seduction or mystery method on dates?
Posted: 6/11/2008 8:34:31 AM
I think anything that will help a shy male get the courage to approach and take chances with a female is a good thing.

However, the only time I think it's bad is when men need to use books like "The System" to trick women into dating them, when their true honest selves (assuming the guy is a decent man) would not attract women into dating.

In the end, I still stand by that all men who want relationships should just be their true honest selves with women. If the women you meet can't seem to get into that while chasing some guy who uses "The System", then it speaks loudly on how wrong that woman was for you.

Way I see it, I call life a win-win. Either I'll find love and live happily ever after or I'll be alone, travel, do things, live a full life, and never deal with the drama.
 Re-animator
Joined: 1/23/2008
Msg: 21
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Does anyone use the art of seduction or mystery method on dates?
Posted: 6/11/2008 8:48:44 AM
For the most part, if you read all the 'seduction' materials, the most important thing you learn is what you've been doing wrong in the past. No one gets mad at guys who are 'naturally charming'; who are doing the very same things but without being taught how to do it, now are they. They just see those guys as 'alpha males', who 'naturally' deserve the attention and girlfriends they have from this very same behavior. But heaven forbid any of us poor guys who spend most of our lives on the outside looking in, seeing everyone else dating, try to improve ourselves and get that same type of life. That seems to be forbidden. For what? Why should I have continued to be alone in life because I didn't behave the 'correct way to get female attention'? And now that I've learned all the things I did wrong, and all the different ways I used to put my foot into my mouth, should I still 'be myself' and continue to do all the things that don't work? Now, that would be really stupid, wouldn't it? None of what the dating 'gurus' teach is unnatural. What we're learning is what the most successful males have been doing since time began, mostly, conversational skills, something that we won't learn anywhere else. We learn what women like to talk about, and then do that. Not really that different from women learning what men like to look at, and then try to look like that. Not any different than, say, going to baseball camp to learn to pitch a perfect curve, or football camp to throw a perfect spiral. Or learning good manners. In the process of learning the simplified basic material, we become comfortable with our own ideas and topics of conversation. If you comb the pick up artist forums, and follow the threads of a lot of guys on there who post their progress, you will find that they gradually move away from the original material and start to come up with ideas of their own to talk about with women. For most of us, it's not all about just picking up random women; it's about finding that one special woman that we want to stay with. But it's really difficult to find her when you only get to go out with so few. The lucky, the beautiful women, and the talented men, get to date many of the opposite sex. I don't see why the rest of us should be limited to the few. It's hard to find someone we're truly compatible with; why make it any harder?
 life_of_leisure
Joined: 1/4/2007
Msg: 22
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Does anyone use the art of seduction or mystery method on dates?
Posted: 6/11/2008 8:49:20 AM
> (grkboy) I still stand by that all men who want relationships should just be their true honest selves

I think the whole appeal of the genre of literature under discussion is that "just be yourself" isn't doing a damn thing for lots of guys, no matter how many people preach it enthusiastically, or how often. Those women who do preach it should put their money where their mouths are and have relationships with men who are just being themselves -- i.e., not doing anything special.

Ok, so once the guy concludes that something more than just being himself is required, such as the various aspects of the traditional male role which women call "being a REAL man", or "having balls", then the question becomes "what else you got besides just being myself?", to which the answer is "become a pick-up artist".

The whole PUA schtick for men is a lot like trying to become a beauty jock is to women. [on edit: I see Re-animator hit on the same thing.] If done well it works, if done poorly it looks cheesy and tacky.
 firegurl61-17
Joined: 11/22/2006
Msg: 23
Does anyone use the art of seduction or mystery method on dates?
Posted: 6/11/2008 8:55:01 AM
I have seen this before and my thought on it was...no one likes a date who assumes they know it all because they read this book..and the book says...all females....blah blah blah!
Thats about the time I tune him out. I think all people are different just because of their backgrounds not being identical. When authors write a book it is usually tainted with their experiences and their theories according to what they have lived. Dating for dummies doesn't quite cut it for me. I would rather be seen on my own merits not because a book said all females are this and that.
 The_Standard_Model
Joined: 7/14/2007
Msg: 24
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Does anyone use the art of seduction or mystery method on dates?
Posted: 6/11/2008 9:09:49 AM

This dating is about real life and real people knowing what you want and how to get it, its not about playing stupid games with peoples feelings.

That is the point. While many men know what they want, they have absolutely no idea on how to attract a woman. For all of those knocking these methods, perhaps you should do a bit of reading about them.
It makes me laugh that women have had these stratagies shoved down their throats since they were kids. (All of those Cosmo articles about how to attract a man, Books like 'The Rules' and 'He is Just not That Into You') But when a man attempts to get the same information they want to cry "enough game playing, already'.
For the record most of these stratagies are simply teaching men to be more confident and personable. How to present themselves better. encourage them to take improve classes for the shy and that sort of thing. Women should be jumping for joy because it just means that ther will be more interesting well rounded guys out there.
 RDtoo
Joined: 1/30/2005
Msg: 25
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Does anyone use the art of seduction or mystery method on dates?
Posted: 6/11/2008 9:26:04 AM
Kind of funny to see women condemning men for turning to this material when they pick up Cosmo every month that features articles like "How to get the man you want" and "How to get him to do anything".
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