Plentyoffish dating forums are a place to meet singles and get dating advice or share dating experiences etc. Hopefully you will all have fun meeting singles and try out this online dating thing... Remember that we are the largest free online dating service, so you will never have to pay a dime to meet your soulmate.
     
Show ALL Forums  > Current Events  > Affirmative Action Outdated?[Thread Closed]      Home login  
 AUTHOR
 _JAFO_
Joined: 11/9/2007
Msg: 1
Affirmative Action Outdated?[Thread Closed]Page 1 of 14    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14)
Supreme Court Rules Against Considering Race to Integrate Schools (2006)

In Parents v. Seattle and Meredith v. Jefferson, affirmative action suffers a setback when a bitterly divided court rules, 5–4, that programs in Seattle and Louisville, Ky., which tried to maintain diversity in schools by considering race when assigning students to schools, are unconstitutional.


In 1996, California became the first state to pass a ban on explicit racial preferences in state institutions

Similar measures have been passed in Washington state and Michigan. There are five states targeted for the 2008 ballot.

I live in one of the targeted states where it will leave it up the voting public to decide the fate of affirmative action in state institutions.

I feel, now that we have a minority running for the highest office in our land it’s time to also do away with affirmative action. It’s outdated and we as a country obviously don’t need it anymore. We are now a colorblind society.

How do you feel about colleges considering race when assigning students to schools?
 Eric2008
Joined: 2/17/2008
Msg: 2
view profile
History
Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 6/14/2008 5:37:58 PM
What a distortion of someones statement.That person stated that an individual should not get a job or be admitted on the basis of sex,color, race or religion.Just as it is illegal to deny a person employment or admission to schools for the same reason.As a Native American,I can tell you that affirmative action is just a way for some people to say that minorities are inferior and need help.
We call it Liberal Racism where I come from and it is insulting.
 yna6
Joined: 1/21/2007
Msg: 3
Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 6/14/2008 7:14:12 PM
why not "blind testing"? Just a number to identify who wrote the entrance exam. No sex, race, age, religion...nothing else. Just the score.

Seems fair to me. Anyone wanting to get into a "good" school is going to have to work for it then.
I agree with the one poster who stated "it does no good to work hard, knowing that a person from a minority is going to get the gold". It is true. Why bother? Why work so hard? You already know you can out-perform, outwork, and probably have more seniority, but...sure as shooting....some minority that is NOT as well qualified is going to get ahead because of that reason alone. Takes the wind out of your sails after that happens half a dozen times or more.
Many feel this way. No use arguing the point...it is the way the REAL world works right now.
 musicianfriend
Joined: 7/23/2007
Msg: 4
view profile
History
Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 6/14/2008 7:39:28 PM
Because of affirmative action...and the hiring of such people is so rampant by our goverment entities.....the people in charge are not the best of the best.

My friends work on a temp. basis for the state. They have excellent resumes. They are trying to get on full time. They cant. They were told by a person that teaches you how to get a job with the state, You have to act stupid and dumb and you cant have any opinions. He teaches a class to show you how to do this. In the old days....you wanted to be the smartest...but now..you have to be the dumbest. And just forget about getting a job with the state if you are white. They hired two chinese girls that cant even speak english instead of the two white girls I know. Whats up with that crap?

Anyway the deal is....people hired through affirmative action are in charge of hiring new people...well if your smart..you wont get hired cause they dont want anyone there smarter than them..If you are not a minority...forget it...they only hire from their own race...which ever minority is in charge at the time, thats the race that gets hired. Its the same in the prison system. Whatever race the warden is...thats the race that gets promotions. Whites arent allowed to behave that way because....after all...they are all racists. (aaarrrrggghh...yea..right)

Its reverse racism. But according to the "stupid people" or the "useful idiots" only whites are prejucice. But youll never hear about all this on the news.

These are true facts as I know the people working for the state and also in the prison system that have been through all this garbage.

DOWN WITH AFFIRMATIVE ACTION. ITS ALL ABOUT RACISIM. REVERSE RACISIM.
 Essence1135
Joined: 6/8/2008
Msg: 5
view profile
History
Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 6/14/2008 9:48:25 PM
It is not up to what I believe or feel, because this sin is not based on a simple belief or feeling. If it were merely a belief or feeling we could stop here and there would be no need for conversation, because - injustice possibly would not have been carried out. To the contrary, centuries of inequality and forcible actions of atrocities that where and are clear violations occurred to people of color repeatedly in this country, not one terrorist act but many.

You can search the internet and see or hear the recent story: Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice hits U.S. 'Birth Defect' – RACE

1. Go to daily motion and get the video condi-rice-election-race-debate_news

2. Go to the Washington times and get RiceEdBoard.mp3

3. Go to Washington times and view the article

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said that the United States still has trouble dealing with race because of a national "birth defect" that denied black Americans the opportunities given to whites at the country's very founding.

"Black Americans were a founding population," she said. "Africans and Europeans came here and founded this country together — Europeans by choice and Africans in chains. That's not a very pretty reality of our founding." …………………………………Yet it is an accurate one.

So going back, the question may not be is Affirmative Action Outdated, the question may be is Affirmative Action Enough?! How do I commit countless acts of violence, against your family; rape, torture, kill, destroy, etc… and then simply create a law(s) in a few areas that in theory are suppose to undo the atrocities that occurred repeatedly over the centuries or the mayhem that is occurring as the direct fallout of the original sin? How do we undo what happened to the Slaves or what happened to the Indians? What one right thing can we do that will level the playing field that gives everyone the same privileges as if we were all starting at the same point without bias. Let’s just begin with the destruction of families or loss of life, what pill does America take to undo the centuries of injustice that were conceived and perpetuated since the countries birth by the founding fathers and how can we right the wrong the grew vast and deep simultaneously?

How can you go back and undo a simple unkind thought that is intrinsic in the fiber of America. How can we undo hatred and the perceptions of various people that make up America. How do you give privilege to those families who have survived for so long without it in a system that very founders created to not include and/or not give privilege to a people who did not look like them. A law is on paper and must be interpreted and if the interpreter chooses to fall back on what the founders themselves established, How then can you even begin to think that Affirmative Action is by any means enough. I truly believe that if we could level the playing field and give every American the same start, preconceived notions, unbiased consideration and advantage. When the least of Americans can unequivocally say that from birth they have been given the luxury of environment, health care, education, nurturing with the freedom to grow without prejudice. Then the basic rights that have been afforded to the families that owned plantations, stores; benefited from recipes or inventions from the gifts of a people who could not; imported or exported goods or services provided in the past; made laws, and then turned around and benefited financially, emotionally or physically from the laws at there very conception; etc…
How does this country make up to a people the loss ties, relationships and generations that could hand nothing down to whom. Families shattered only to possibly discover a connection through DNA.

Tim Wise an anti-racist educator, essayist and activist, and the author of two books: White Like Me: Reflections on Race From a Privileged Son, and Affirmative Action: Racial Preference in Black and White.
You can look for “Affirmative Action Debate” Tim Wise or “TIM WISE- INSTITUTIONAL RACISM IN AMERICAN SOCIETY IS REAL” on you tube
Tim Wise has been doing anti-racism work since he was 14, and professionally since graduating college from Tulane University, in New Orleans, in 1990. He has spoken on over 400 college campuses, in 48 states, since going out on the lecture circuit in 1995. His essays are distributed widely and can be read,
 Running_Pony
Joined: 6/7/2008
Msg: 6
Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 6/14/2008 10:20:13 PM
You're right

It is not up to what I believe or feel

The highest court in the land has deemed it unconstitutional.

You can't have it both ways. Sorry.
 southernlass
Joined: 5/2/2006
Msg: 7
Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 6/15/2008 1:12:02 AM
Affirmative action is completely outdated and is an irresponsible, unfair, unjust practice. What was once referred to as "minority populations" are now becoming the new majority. People should be advanced in education and employment based upon their merit, not their race. Bring back true equality, yesterday.


Minorities Now Form Majority in One-Third of Most-Populous Counties

Nonwhites make up a majority in almost one-third of the most-populous counties in the country and in nearly one in 10 of all 3,100 counties, according to an analysis. ARTICLE »

SAM ROBERTS The New York Times Wednesday, August 8
http://www.blogrunner.com/snapshot/D/0/7/46BA7E910E35EC07/
 Running_Pony
Joined: 6/7/2008
Msg: 8
Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 6/15/2008 7:39:46 AM

Affirmative Action is not needed?

I agree. Because everything is equal, we should send all the inner city kids to the schools in suburbia and all the kids in suburbia to the schools in the inner city.

because it's all the same right?


Here's an analogy:

Two sons (Charlie and Rick) receive $100,000 from mom upon her passing.

Charlie and Rick both have the same good jobs working blue collar work and decide to spend the money mom left to buy brand new homes next to each other in a new housing development.

Every day after work Rick would mow his lawn, putz around the house and do odd jobs or projects. Charlie would come home, turn on the tv, lay on the couch with a bag of chips and eventually fall into a deep sleep.

Their children grew up to be like their parents. Ricks’ kids would come home after school, do their homework and chores. Charlies kids came home, played video games and rough house.

10 years went by.

One day Charlie realized his house was run down and in overall poor shape. He saw that Ricks home still looked brand new. Charlie felt ripped off by the builder because his house was falling apart. Charlie accused Rick of getting a better house originally. He told Rick that they should switch houses because it was only fair.

The point is... it's not about color or gender. It's about how a person applies themselves. Your not victim anymore.
 Running_Pony
Joined: 6/7/2008
Msg: 9
Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 6/15/2008 10:51:05 AM

What about the handicapped, gay/transgender and women that Affirmative Action also protect? Do you think having a minority running for the highest office will some how magically eliminate other forms of discrimination?


Protect? Or given an advantage -- sometimes arguably unfair?

Is it fair that handicapped, women and certain ethnicities get government grants to start businesses? Isn't that discrimination? That isn't your argument though, is it.

But we degress. The topic of the thread the OP started is about constitutional rights in schools.
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 10
Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 6/15/2008 11:17:55 AM
Two sons (Charlie and Rick) receive $100,000 from mom upon her passing.

So, right out of the gate, your analogy fails. Where in US history do you see blacks and whites having a fair, well-off, and generous "mother" to the both of them?

Affirmative action is a flawed and clumsy way to address the problem. Alternative solutions are not exactly obvious, either. But at least it has the ability to admit that a problem exists-- something some posters here cannot admit.

Edit:
Your missing the point. It's not about certain races being better or worse.

You didn't comprehend the post she quoted from very well, then. (above quote is from msg #26 prior to being edited)

You don't see a admissions departments in colleges worrying about getting enough of the Asian population included. No, because in their Culture, they are more educationally focused.

Very true. Interesting sidebar: colleges are actually having a problem keeping the male/female population balanced. Seems more women than men are meeting the qualifications. There's talk of affirmative action for male applicants.

As for being education focused, the US has a long history of denying equal education to certain segments of the population. Therein lies the problem. Just because a few notable people manage to lose 80 pounds because of the Nutrisystem Weight Loss Program does not indicate that obesity is no longer a problem.
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 11
Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 6/15/2008 11:58:35 AM
Which degree has more value.

1. A degree earned through hard work and merit?

2. A degree earned through affirmative action?

False dichotomy. Life is so simple in anti-affirmative action land. I'll add at least a couple more:

3. A degree earned through hard work and merit after being granted the opportunity through affirmative action?

4. A degree earned because the student's father, one of the biggest donors to the university, pulled some strings?
 h0ldfast
Joined: 12/19/2006
Msg: 12
view profile
History
Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 6/15/2008 3:14:08 PM
how exactly would you prove that one got his degree through affirmative action rather than merits and hard work

Institutions of higher learning have a responsibility to ensure that the degrees they award reflect the learning and effort of their students. Colleges and universities should have the option of basing the degrees they award on merit or on other factors. People who are given degrees based on factors other than merit should have a notation on their diploma to differentiate it.
 lateef7842
Joined: 4/14/2008
Msg: 13
view profile
History
Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 6/15/2008 3:53:48 PM
Hmm ... outdated? No. In need of adjustment, yes. I think affirmative action should move away from race and begin to address economically challenged Americans of all backgrounds. Sensible reform is whats needed. The job isn't finished.

Don't get me wrong, I still feel blacks, women and other minorities have a tougher time getting ahead. But, I don't think those obstacles are insurmountable. It's still needed in some corners of our society.

By the way, affirmative action benefits women in greater numbers than it does blacks and other minorities combined. So, while your looking to eliminate affirmative action all together, you will be doing harm to womens progress. Conservatives don't tell you that because they need to "female" support base to push their agenda.

Lateef
 Adam 4 Coffee
Joined: 5/31/2007
Msg: 14
Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 6/15/2008 4:00:03 PM
I think people who get jobs or go to colleges should get their foot inthe door based upon their qualifications and not on race. Affirmative action is outdated and only benefits blacks in the US. It does not benefit other minorities for the most part. Waht about people who actually get the grades but can;t get the loans or financial aid to go to a good school. But the black kid gets a free ride even though he does not have the grades just becuase of the color of his skin. That's not right. Things are much more equal now. And I think that if you work hard enough or are smart enough you should get the job or go to college despite your race or sex or sexual orientation. As long as we have laws agianst discriminnation and give equal rights to everyone. And advantages to noone except those who are qualified. Will this society be free of racism. Give it another 10-20 years I say.
 lateef7842
Joined: 4/14/2008
Msg: 15
view profile
History
Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 6/15/2008 4:03:20 PM
One more thing. If you're going to eliminate Affirmative Action in schools, then you should also eliminate legacy admissions. In other words, a person shouldn't get a pass or extra points add to their admission score just because they had a family member attend that school. That person didn't earn his or her place or any of those extra points. They receive them based on being born to a certain family.

So, if you're really looking to do what fair, you come out in support of abolishing legacy admissions as well as Affirmative Action. Just a thought.

Lateef
 Eric2008
Joined: 2/17/2008
Msg: 16
view profile
History
Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 6/15/2008 9:09:21 PM
The bottom line is that affirmative action is unconstitutional.Why?Any law that decides someone receives preferential treatment because of their sex,religion or skin color(race) also discriminates against someone else for the very same reason.
Have you ever heard of the term racial backlash?
Affirmative action creates racial backlash.People who have grown-up their whole lives without any prejudice now hate African-Americans because they have been denied a job or admission into schools because they weren't the right color.
Now before you start calling me all kind of names.I am Native American and a member of a minority.I have been discriminated against and unknowingly benefited from affirmative action.I withdrew from a college when I found out that more qualified people were denied admission.
 southernlass
Joined: 5/2/2006
Msg: 17
Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 6/15/2008 9:40:40 PM

But the black kid gets a free ride even though he does not have the grades just becuase of the color of his skin. That's not right. Things are much more equal now. And I think that if you work hard enough or are smart enough you should get the job or go to college despite your race or sex or sexual orientation.


I watched this very situation in action toward the end of my masters degree. In one of my classes, an African American student skipped a lot of classes, never had his homework in on time, and was a part of a group project where he didn't pull his weight. When he had his homework to turn in, it wasn't comparable in any way to the rest of the papers being turned in by the class. It was obvious that he had put in significantly less effort. He managed to skate through, however, with the rest of us, gifted with a "B" despite doing C- work and not helping his group out. I think that is so unfair and it burned me a little that I had busted my rear to make an "A" and this kid got a "B" he didn't earn just because of the color of his skin. The professor was African American as well, and I guess felt sorry for the guy and wanted to see him have a chance to succeed but that's no way to teach anyone. You should get the grade you legitimately earn.
 LoonyTunz
Joined: 8/11/2006
Msg: 18
view profile
History
Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 6/18/2008 8:33:34 PM

False dichotomy. Life is so simple in anti-affirmative action land. I'll add at least a couple more:

3. A degree earned through hard work and merit after being granted the opportunity through affirmative action?

4. A degree earned because the student's father, one of the biggest donors to the university, pulled some strings?


Is every white middle class males father a major donor to universities where you live?

Name one type of person it is LEGAL to discriminate against(and therefore prejudge) based on their race, gender, or sexual orientation alone..............
It won't be any group benefiting from AA. So who really does face concrete verifiable discrimination that is well documented and enshrined in law as a "legal right/responsibility" of governments, businesses and schools?
 h0ldfast
Joined: 12/19/2006
Msg: 19
view profile
History
Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 6/19/2008 7:47:37 AM

when people were hired and promoted based primarily on the color of their skin (White) where were the protests against that?

I guess you haven't heard of the civil rights movement. I won't go into it in detail, but there were a lot of protests.
 LoonyTunz
Joined: 8/11/2006
Msg: 20
view profile
History
Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 6/19/2008 8:22:58 AM

Tell me...prior to affirmative action...when people were hired and promoted based primarily on the color of their skin (White) where were the protests against that?
Or when that also happens today?
<<Honestly I'd be MORE upset by AA if I were in any of the target groups. Who would the government be to say I needed special help since I couldn't cut it on my own?
example: On a university application I saw boxes to tick to indicate if I was
1 native
2 African descent
2 Hispanic
3 female
4 Disabled
5 Other visible minority (please specify)
Now consider the selection process for undergrad studies. Few schools interview. The look at grades, extra-curricular activity, community involvement and so on.
Now, how from those things can they tell if one is a visible minority? Oh, they can't. So the reason for those boxes is to force equal outcome when the top students are selected. The racial profile is examined and then offers are made to unqualified students that will fullfil the quotas and offers are not made to qualified students that worked to achieve the level that would have originally entitled them to admission as they only take so many students a year.
Now in the first round of selection process there were no doubt members of those select groups represented that worked their proverbial a$$es off to qualify and compete. And these deserving individuals now know that whenever anyone sees them there will be a number of people wondering "Did he/she EARN her place here or was it a gift?". Not because of anything they've done, but because it is a simple fact that racism exists and for some groups it is officially encouraged. This will not ever eliminate racism, if anything it gives racists ammo to fuel their hate. And it is demeaning to those that DID get to where they are on their own merit.
 KountMacula
Joined: 12/15/2006
Msg: 21
Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 6/19/2008 8:56:38 AM
Colorblind society? Excuse me, but when was the last time you were a minority? When was last time you were pulled over because you were in the 'wrong' neighborhood, driving the 'wrong' car? When was the last time you 'fit the description'?
When was the last time you went to an upscale department store and got followed around like a suspect? When was the last time your kid came home crying because someone called them , or spic, or wetback, or camel jockey, etc.? WHen was it?? YOu, and others like you, who have NEVER personally experienced reacism in this day and age really have some nerve to suggest we live in a colorblind society. WE do not. People in general are not as racist as they were in years past. The ones that are, usually keep their ideas to themselves...in public anyway. So, if you aren't a minority you might 'think' it doesn't exist. Just because you don't see something doesn't mean it's not there. I can agree that affirmative action needs to be revamped. Some of the policies that are implemented because of affirmative action are convoluted nonsense, that sometimes do more harm than good as is it pertains to race relations. But to say we live in a colorblind society is asinine! It kills me when people (non- minorities) spew drivel like this. We almost had a female president, and Oprah is like uber-rich. Women are CEO's, prominent doctors, lawyers,senators, and too many other viable, and important things to name. So by your logic, I suppose there is no sexism anymore because of the shining examples of some women who are successful right? So let's do away with separate bathrooms for the sexes. No more sexual harasment lawsiuts. Let's also get rid of sexual division in sports. See where I'm going w/ this? Sounds pretty stupid huh? Well that's what you, and others like you, sound when you imply we live in a 'colorblind society' as if it were just a given. Affirmative action was implemented to counterbalance the discriminatory practices of the white power structure of the time. Racism, made affirmative action necessary. Without racism, there'd be no need for affirmative action. We have as a society come a long way in terms of race relations, but in NO way is racism gone. Affirmative action practices in every arena shold be looked at, and revised to actually makes sense,and help do what it was designed to do.But sadly, as long as there is racism, ther will be a need for affirmative action, in some form or another.
 LoonyTunz
Joined: 8/11/2006
Msg: 22
view profile
History
Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 6/19/2008 9:24:12 AM
Come to Canada Kount.....just avoid Toronto.

But sadly, as long as there is racism, ther will be a need for affirmative action, in some form or another.

Bullshit. In my example the selection process does not allow those choosing the students to even know if they are a minority, so how could they be accused of racial preference for one group? It is pure fascist social engineering. Simple to say the person with the 90% average should get the spot over the person with the 85% average, but the reality is that can't happen under affirmative action.


It kills me when people (non- minorities) spew drivel like this.

Do you not even see the racism in your own words? I didn't think AA was a good solution, but wasn't really opposed to it until a professional acquaintance explained to me why it was so wrong and destined to never work to remedy anything ...... since it matters to you this guy was black, (smart as hell and driven to succeed aswell....which he did do).
 Eric2008
Joined: 2/17/2008
Msg: 23
view profile
History
Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 6/19/2008 8:11:15 PM
Kountmacula,
Every morning I wake up I am a minority.I am a Native American.Your post is a prime example why a lot of minorities don't get ahead in life.They are to busy whining about how the man is holding them down they don't realize that they are what holds them back.I have many clients both black and white that I must visit in their homes.Not a month goes by that I don't get stopped in a predominately black neighbor usually by a BLACK cop wanting to know why I'm in that neighborhood and wanting to search my car.Racist black cops.
Most people try to be colorblind,but as long as there is a "Rev." screaming his hatred towards all people who aren't black you will continue to have racism.I don't care if his name is Jackson,Wright or Sharpton they are just as wrong as the KKK.And just so you know I have been called the "n" word, camel jockey,wetback,PR,spic and too many others to call.
Most often it was an African American doing the name calling.

Any law that places one race ahead of the other is wrong and Unconstitutional.
Next time you fail in accomplishing something look inside yourself and try to determine if you just didn't have the ability to succeed instead of blaming the color of your skin and what you think others done to you because of it.
 TheLimey
Joined: 2/24/2008
Msg: 24
view profile
History
Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 6/19/2008 9:08:42 PM
What's needed is an IQ test to get into college. That way we won't waste who knows how much money on educating people who won't or can't benefit from it.
As the system stands now they're producing an extraordinary amount of over-educated idiots.

Want to get into college? Do well at school, thats ALL it takes
 LoonyTunz
Joined: 8/11/2006
Msg: 25
view profile
History
Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 6/20/2008 3:12:47 AM
Sara that would apply to biased IQ tests, things like MENSA use such biased tests. But tests such as the WAIS test will be found to be much more accurate, as they are not culturally bias but a test of your brains ability to perform different tasks.

Still waiting on a rational explaination on how when you have two kids as follows...

Person A: 87% average in school, 10 hours of volunteer work a week in the community, participation in extra curricular activities and tutoring other students after school. From a middle class family.

Person B: 77% average in school, 8 hours of volunteer work a week in the community, participation in extra curricular activities and tutoring other students after school. From a middle class family.

How do you justify NOT selecting student A just because student B ticked a box indicating that they belong to a targeted racial group therefore they are somehow entitled to the spot instead because the school otherwise would have been "racist" and selected the higher performing person?
Show ALL Forums  > Current Events  > Affirmative Action Outdated?[Thread Closed]