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 Seafarer227
Joined: 11/8/2007
Msg: 2
Barriers for menPage 1 of 2    (1, 2)
I suspect the poster was attempting to cite an example of a field traditionally dominated by females and the first thing that came to mind was nursing. He/she probably did not have a medical service background and very limited experience with which to justify that opinion.

In his/her defense I will agree that very rarely are nurses in television and movies cast as men and when they are, they are very often portrayed as effeminate and very much less than masculine. So, if the poster's only exposure to "nurses" has been through TV and movies, I can very easily understand this misconception.

I think a much better example would have been preschool and early elementary education. There is, in my experience, a general assumption that women are not only better at filling teaching positions in this age rage but that men are in fact dangerous and assumed to have criminal intent.

I do not wish to assume the poster's position as I am not familiar with the post to which you are referring. So, please try not to hold me accountable for anything he/she may have said. I am instead responding to your description of the conversation. While I disagree with the implied intent of the poster's opinion, I will grant him/her that I have observed very few women (feminist or not) push the general public for greater acceptance of male preschool and early elementary teachers.

I do not however believe that this example discredits the feminist movement or in any way justifies the unequal treatment of women in the workplace.
 Seafarer227
Joined: 11/8/2007
Msg: 4
Barriers for men
Posted: 7/23/2008 6:05:09 AM
Well yeah, like I said, preschool teachers.

Would you send your child to a preschool that was staffed entirely by men?

But who would give a second thought to placing the very same child in an otherwise identical preschool staffed entirely by women. It's an obvious double standard that benefits women over men in this particular field.
 Seafarer227
Joined: 11/8/2007
Msg: 6
Barriers for men
Posted: 7/23/2008 6:13:11 AM
No, the poster was completely disillusioned and misinformed. In my observation the nursing field is pretty well gender balanced. In fact it may even sway slightly in favor of men in some areas.
 GeneralizingNow
Joined: 10/10/2007
Msg: 8
Barriers for men
Posted: 7/23/2008 8:31:30 AM
My opinion of why nursing was considered a "woman's occupation" in the first place was because of the glass ceiling put in play by the men--women weren't seen fit to be doctors, but were fine for being the caregivers/lackeys of the smarter men. So now that one person turns it around and puts it on the women? Interesting spin on history.

I know quite a few nurses from the military, half and half, men and women. I think because of the military many more men ar in the nursing field now than in the recent past (20-30 years or so).

There is no barrier for men in traditional women's jobs, except negative feedback from peers (usually other males).
 good_catch77
Joined: 3/28/2007
Msg: 9
Barriers for men
Posted: 7/23/2008 9:14:02 AM
OP ~ Check your mail. I emailed the response.
 jm0405
Joined: 7/7/2008
Msg: 14
Barriers for men
Posted: 7/23/2008 12:35:26 PM
Obviously someone has not been in Utah lately. In their hospitals, you have 5:1 male nurses to women. Reason being: Mommies have 5-6-12-20 kids at home and the men utilize that good paying industry with job security and great health benefits to support the family.

Of note, finance and banking used to primarily be 79% male, but these days more and more women are entering brokerages, investment banking, banks and credit unions. Also, you are seeing more and more male teachers that used to be primarily female. In essence, things are simply balancing themselves out. Women are going into different industries as well as men.

Didn't the women's lib want equality anyway? Well...to receive you have to give...life is about give and take so there's no room for the remark about men leaving the women's industry alone. Besides, I prefer having a fine, good looking male nurse any day over Lady Hitler weighing 200 pounds with a bad attitude.
 TravelingHomebody
Joined: 6/7/2008
Msg: 15
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History
Barriers for men
Posted: 7/23/2008 1:30:08 PM
Barriers to men becoming nurses? My best friend -- a man -- is in nursing school, and when I worked at a Texas State School, three of the four nurses were men.
 slybandit
Joined: 7/10/2006
Msg: 17
Barriers for men
Posted: 7/23/2008 3:28:41 PM
Insofar as a narrow construction of the original topic is concerned, I cannot speak for "internal" barriers to men in the nursing industry.

That being said, the distinction is artificial, in my view. Anything is a barrier that acts as such, whether it is attitudes inside or outside the nursing profession. Put up all the incentives you like, if a male nurse gets subjected to derogatory comments and gets mocked and treated with disrespect for his choice of career, that's a barrier. To claim that that barrier "does not exist in the industry itself" is not particularly relevant, because the general culture permeates the profession also, it is not hermetically sealed off.

No Wall Street firm openly states that it discriminates against women, but the results are pretty obvious, right? You do not need an explicit rule, all you need is an implicit culture of exclusion.

I can speak about the teaching profession, elementary and secondary, in at least one particular area, as I have numerous male relatives involved in it. It is misandrist. Point blank. There is an institutional hostility to male participation, male teachers are treated badly because they are male, stigmatized with suspicion of being potential sexual abusers, deliberately excluded and marginalized. The proof is in the results, as rather than becoming more gender balanced over time, it is becoming ever more overwhelmingly female. And an overwhelmingly female teaching profession is showing results in increasingly poor performance for male students.

Negative rants about "feminism" are usually pretty uninformative. But I would be interested to see if there are any women out there, whether they self-identify as feminist or not, who would support a 50-50 gender quota for female-dominated professions.
 slybandit
Joined: 7/10/2006
Msg: 19
Barriers for men
Posted: 7/23/2008 4:59:49 PM
Hey, supposing we adopted that quota across the board. There's a social experiment.

Suddenly, almost no woman can get a job as a teacher, a nurse, a receptionist, a librarian, etc.

Plenty of openings as a roustabout on an oil rig, a logger, a miner, a geologist, a physicist, a stockbroker, an engineer, a welder, a construction worker, an orderly in a mental hospital, garbagewoman, and so on.

If it's dirty, dangerous or isolated in the middle of nowhere, plenty of openings. Safe, warm, clean, 9-5 office job? You are out of luck.
 Double Cabin
Joined: 11/29/2004
Msg: 20
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History
Barriers for men
Posted: 7/23/2008 5:12:15 PM
When I was in the corporate world I benefitted from my sex and race more often than not but I was passed over for promotion a few times for less qualified women or minorities. Some guys would blame the "system" and some guys would choose to be a survivor than a victim.

Any guy that blames feminism for vocational shortcomings conveniently forgets women still make far less than we do for the same work.
 SomethingManly
Joined: 4/18/2008
Msg: 21
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History
Barriers for men
Posted: 7/23/2008 6:51:04 PM
I think a lot of this stuff is hogwash. Some of it just doesn't make sense to me.

For starters, if i own a business, i pretty much want to make money. Which means i hire the best person for the job. How much do i pay them, that probably is supply and demand and how good they are.

I wonder....if a job group (nurse, engineer, etc.) is dominated by a certain gender, could it be that this gender is more attracted to this type of work?
 xeot
Joined: 10/25/2007
Msg: 26
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History
Barriers for men
Posted: 7/23/2008 10:01:46 PM

Yeah there aren't a whole lot of female engineering majors in school right now from what I've been seeing.


The college (engineering) I went to gave grants, tuition deductions effectively to women for being female. I can put the percentage of women in another perspective. When they made some deal with the military that made the school cheap for ROTC participants the percentage of women went WAY up. (from 10 guys to 1 girl to 8 to 1! )

Anyway, what the quoted portion the OP posted means IMO is that in dating feminism attacked every aspect where men had had an advantage but left alone ever where women had the advantage. Women and men were made 'equal' where men had the advantage in the old ways but women were left with the advantage in all other areas. Net change is women have the upper hand overall. This has, needless to say created a variety of modern dating issues.

The person who wrote the quoted bit was trying to support that by using a jobs example. Feminism sees a problem when there are more men then women in a given field and works to equalize that field. The areas where women dominate, well women keep on dominating them. Basically he's making the point that in the name of equality things have been made more unequal than they ever were before rather than specific instances in the nursing field.
 WpgGentleman2
Joined: 6/19/2008
Msg: 29
Barriers for men
Posted: 7/24/2008 1:46:13 AM
I'm in Canada. Things may be different in the USA or UK.

The barriers to men in nursing are the same as the barriers to women in engineering, except more absolute.

They are societal and about society's expectations.

I was an engineering student back in the 1970s. Up to that time there had always been girls enrolled in engineering. Although there was only one that had graduated before the 1970s. From my time onwards, multiple women have graduated at my old school every year, and now make up 10 to 20% of the graduates.

In nursing, there were many years where there were no men enrolled. Male RNs make up only a few percent of nurses in Canada.

In Canada, nurses are mostly unionized. So the starting salary is higher for nursing than for engineering, and that continues for many years. (Then so people go into management or set up their own companies, and the statistics probably become meaningless.)

So if money was men's motivation, more would take nursing. But systemic discrimination, and society guide men away from it.

Whereas, there are ongoing government and industry efforts to remove society's pressure on women away from engineering, and to bring women into engineering, with sexist summer educational offerings to high school students, sexist bursaries, sexist job ads, there are no such similar efforts to even out nursing enrollment.
 WpgGentleman2
Joined: 6/19/2008
Msg: 30
Barriers for men
Posted: 7/24/2008 2:33:40 AM
Consider now discrimination in the workplace.

Our governments, federally regulated companies, and companies that want to do business with the Government of Canada must have employment equity programs. (The Province of Ontario used to require this for provincially regulated companies too.)

These programs mandate provide combinations of preference to "members of designated minorities" in hiring, training, development opportunities, and promotions, where they are under represented.

Now consider Canada's chartered banks. (Approximate figures that are a few years old.) The percentage of female employees is 75% overall, 20% of executives, 30% of information technology.

So they have employment equity programs to hire, train and promote women into the executive ranks and into IT.

They have no corresponding program to hire men into bank branches, and many bank branches don't want men. They have no corresponding program to hire men into mainstream head office banking jobs.

Incidentally, the "designated minorities" are: women, aboriginal Canadians, visible minorities, and the disabled. At the bank, they were over quota in ethnic Chinese and Asian Indians in IT, because they used to actively recruit from overseas. The bank was the only place where I ever heard Chinese or Asian Indians openly complain at work about employment equity.
----

Now consider a particular government ministry.

Fifty years ago it was 70% male. It is 80% female employees, but with only 30% female employees in IT.

Again, they have an employment equity program in the male dominated area, but not in any of the female dominated areas, even though the female dominated areas display greater inequality.

In fact, all government jobs ads in my part of Canada bear a "boiler plate" statement to the effect, "Employment equity will be a factor in the assessment of candidates for this position."

Which means that, even for jobs where men are not discriminated against for employment equity, where the quota for women has been met, there is systemic discrimination because that boiler plate statement discourages men from applying.

--------

The law here is, if there is any *part* of the company or government organization where a "recognized minority" is under-represented, then there must be a program to correct it.

--------

Our laws in Canada are based on attempts to correct historical injustices. However, our legislators have a very unclear picture of history. The old days were the bad days. In "highly civilized countries", ordinary people of either sex and any race generally lived short desperate lives.

1. Getting grabbed by the army or navy and sent away to be used as cannon fodder for 2 to 3 years was not preferential treatment towards men. Forget loosing 1,000 men a year. At the Somme it was roughly 150,000 in 3 days. In sailing days, even if you didn't die in battle, sailors would be crippled or killed by scurvy.

2. In North America aboriginal North Americans ran everything for 20,000 years. That is little different than Europe, where aboriginal Europeans ran everything.

3. In Canada, our aboriginals didn't have writing, so our courts go by oral tradition. According to oral tradition, and this continues today, many of our tribes were matriarchies. So historically in these tribes men were second class.

3. Starting shortly before the birth of Christ, slavery was epidemic in Europe and Caucasian Europeans were the slaves. Only after we banned keeping white slaves did the use of African slaves become widespread in Europe. But since the Americas were discovered around the time keeping whites slaves was abolished, we in North America think only blacks were ever slaves. (For those with a bible handy, Leviticus has the prices. Yes, women were priced at only 2/3 of what men were. But the slaves didn't see that money anyways. The only racial difference was if the slave was Jewish.)

4. Women having a 10% chance of dying with each pregnancy was not discrimination but rather a sad fact of biology. When we developed medical technology, this inequality was one of the first things we corrected.

--------

I agree with the idea that many inequities in occupational sex ratios are because men and women find different jobs attractive. To the extent that that is true, I disagree with our current practice of trying to brainwash women to go into jobs they don't want.

Personally, I think women are smart to want to stay away from IT these days. The glamour has gone, and the jobs are moving to low salary third world countries.

But if you read CIO Magazine (a magazine for IT executives), you'll read IT executives saying they want women in IT in order to reduce salaries. To them it is about getting employees that *they* believe are bad at bargaining wages and benefits. To them, the quotas and discrimination against men aren't about fighting discrimination at all.
 WpgGentleman2
Joined: 6/19/2008
Msg: 31
Barriers for men
Posted: 7/24/2008 2:24:02 PM
In the USA, about 60% of bachelor degree recipients are women, 40% are men. (60% is 1.5 times 40%.) And the starting salaries for women graduates are higher. More women than men receive masters degrees.
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/006/531ffoaa.asp

In the USA, 5.4% of nurses are men.
http://www.allnursingschools.com/faqs/men.php

In Canada, 4.89% of nurses are men.
http://www.thestar.com/SpecialSections/article/209399

In the USA, 20.5% of BSc in engineering degrees go to women.
In the Canada, 23% of BSc in engineering degrees go to women.
http://micpohling.wordpress.com/2008/03/16/oecd-female-graduates-in-engineering-2004/

Obviously there are going to be different ratios in specialist hospitals, like military and maternity hospitals, and variations by region within the countries.

Figure 2 here is a graph of the gap between male and female engineering salaries versus years since obtaining BSc from 1995:
http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/issuebrf/sib99352.htm
The gap is about 4%.

There is usually a 20 to 30% gap between the earnings of male and female physicians in the same specialty within the same province in Manitoba. However, all physicians in the same specialty in the same province are paid the same amount for the same procedure under our medicare systems -- which pay for the vast majority of medical examinations and procedures in Canada. This gap has been looked into, more than once, and the reason is that male doctors are now typically working 40 to 50 hours a week and female doctors 20 to 30% less.
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