Notice: Forums will be shutdown by June 2019

To focus on better serving our members, we've decided to shut down the POF forums.

While regular posting is now disabled, you can continue to view all threads until the end of June 2019. Event Hosts can still create and promote events while we work on a new and improved event creation service for you.

Thank you!

Plentyoffish dating forums are a place to meet singles and get dating advice or share dating experiences etc. Hopefully you will all have fun meeting singles and try out this online dating thing... Remember that we are the largest free online dating service, so you will never have to pay a dime to meet your soulmate.
     
Show ALL Forums  > Current Events  > Contraversery over the confederate flag.      Home login  
 AUTHOR
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 2
Contraversery over the confederate flag.Page 1 of 6    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6)
I'm taking this guy at his word, and not in any way impugning his motives.

But it's a symbol that has come to mean hate because of its use by others.

The swastika is a ancient hindu symbol of peace. But clearly the swastika means different things to hindus and jews. Hindus didn't kill millions of jews, but they don't use their symbol in America or Europe out of sensitivity.

For this kid the confederate flag means one thing; but to black America it means something else entirely. It's just really poor judgement, and I've got no problem with the school protecting teenagers from poor judgement. Heck, that's what most school rules are about.
 blueyedevil68
Joined: 12/16/2004
Msg: 4
Contraversery over the confederate flag.
Posted: 8/15/2008 10:48:47 AM
Dont you sorry asss people that are quick to wright off the south, forget that many men Died for that flag.That was our flag before the 50 states.Smoke on that 1.
 oddandy
Joined: 3/5/2008
Msg: 7
Contraversery over the confederate flag.
Posted: 8/15/2008 11:11:18 AM
For this kid the confederate flag means one thing; but to black America it means something else entirely. It's just really poor judgement, and I've got no problem with the school protecting teenagers from poor judgement.


"Protect" implies that some harm may be done otherwise. What HARM are they being protected from? None at all.

Somewhere along the line it became a popular notion for people to believe in a legal right to not be offended. I have a real problem with that, and not just because it's ridiculously and unrealistically impractical.

Hell, it offends me. :wink:
 Shenandoah
Joined: 8/10/2008
Msg: 9
view profile
History
Contraversery over the confederate flag.
Posted: 8/15/2008 11:24:37 AM
Anyone offended by the Confederate flag needs a history lesson. That means learning the whole and true history of the cause of the War Between the States.

By demeaning or complaining or being disrespectful of the South or it's cause and it's symbols is simply exhibiting ignorance of the facts.

The founding fathers of this great nation included in the Constitution the right of any state to withdraw from the union. The facts are available to you if you care to learn the facts. The War was not fought to abolish slavery. It was mainly over unfair tariffs placed upon the South. And the Emancipation Proclamation only affected the slaves in the states that had seceded, while the north still practiced slavery. Do the research.

The Confederacy did have a total of three national flags, with the Battle Flag being just that, a battle flag. The Cross is the Cross of Saint Andrew. The Confederacy was a Christian nation.

If you would like to really be surprised, research the number of Negroes who freely fought for the Confederacy. Do the research. I personally have placed a marble, military, Confederate headstone at the grave of a free Negro who served the Confederacy with honor. Want another surprise? The United States government will furnish the stone, just as for the Union soldiers.

Another fact......the Negroes who fought for the Confederacy, fought shoulder to shoulder with their caucasion fellow soldiers. This is unlike the U.S. Army who had segregated Negro units with white commanders.

History is truth. Any distortion is propaganda. Public schools seem to be a little lax on teaching history (truth/facts).

Enough of a history lesson. But before you disagree, do yourself a favor and do the research. Otherwise, you'll embarrass yourself.
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 11
Contraversery over the confederate flag.
Posted: 8/15/2008 11:30:38 AM

Enough of a history lesson. But before you disagree, do yourself a favor and do the research. Otherwise, you'll embarrass yourself.


The racist history of the flag isn't about the Civil War - it's that it was used for over a century as a symbol of hatred and violence by racists. Just like the swastika has had its original meaning changed by its use by a racist regime.
 oddandy
Joined: 3/5/2008
Msg: 12
Contraversery over the confederate flag.
Posted: 8/15/2008 11:33:02 AM

Offended? A symbol that in the past has invoked racism, hatred and violence against a race of people might be considered as something more than just an "offense".


You can "consider" it anything you like, it's still a symbol, nothing more, nothing less. That belt buckle isn't going to sprout arms and legs and go lynch anyone.

Next you'll claim that a symbol may entice people into behaving in an unacceptable manner, which flies in the face of personal responsibility...i.e. a symbol can take no action, and a symbol can't make anyone do anything, people choose their own action and should be dealt with accordingly.

The point remains the same, in a free society you don't get to tell people what kind of symbolism they can sport, no matter how heinous the things the symbol represents may be.
 Jiperly
Joined: 8/30/2006
Msg: 13
Contraversery over the confederate flag.
Posted: 8/15/2008 11:33:52 AM
>>>Everyones elses rights seem to be defended when it comes to dress code, why not this kid.

Because its a public school. If he was walking down the street, I'd agree with you
 Shenandoah
Joined: 8/10/2008
Msg: 14
view profile
History
Controversy over the confederate flag.
Posted: 8/15/2008 11:37:55 AM
Sir,

If you were to bother to look at past pictures of the KKK, you will see the use of the flag of the United States as much or more of the Battle Flag. Facts are facts.
 oddandy
Joined: 3/5/2008
Msg: 15
Contraversery over the confederate flag.
Posted: 8/15/2008 11:49:34 AM

Because its a public school. If he was walking down the street, I'd agree with you


What's the difference? Public schools are funded with the same taxpayer money as public streets.
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 17
Contraversery over the confederate flag.
Posted: 8/15/2008 12:02:37 PM
You're actually making my point:

If you saw someone in white robes and a pointy hood, are you thinking, "Hmm, must be going to a costume party as a ghost"?

The flag has been used as a racist symbol, despite the revisionist history I saw above about the KKK using the American flag. That was so ironic I at first didn't feel it needed commenting on.
 SAguy_06
Joined: 12/29/2005
Msg: 20
Contraversery over the confederate flag.
Posted: 8/15/2008 12:35:53 PM
Lil Tommy Defoe's rights were never, and are not, being violated.

Lil tommy can walk down Any Street, USA and no public official would, or will stop him and ask that the buckle, shirt, hat...or W ever TF Lil Tommy is "sportin" be removed or surrendered.

Lil Tommy can even take his School District to Federal Court...Get Real.

So y'all can Howl at the moon, Party with Confederate Ghosts, Paint your P-truck in Stars and Bars...Knock y'alls selves out, you got the Right!
 Belle Requin
Joined: 2/17/2007
Msg: 21
Contraversery over the confederate flag.
Posted: 8/15/2008 1:21:21 PM

The swastika is a ancient hindu symbol of peace. But clearly the swastika means different things to hindus and jews. Hindus didn't kill millions of jews, but they don't use their symbol in America or Europe out of sensitivity.
I seem to remember that actually the Hindu Symbol is a different direction of the swastika, though I may be in error on that one. However, I have been in a Hindu temple where they did have swastikas on display and in artwork on the walls- clearly not black ones on white backgrounds in red circles, but they still chose to use their symbol in their temple. If they do it Cda, I'm sure they do it in the US.
 SAguy_06
Joined: 12/29/2005
Msg: 22
Contraversery over the confederate flag.
Posted: 8/15/2008 1:35:31 PM
The Swastika is a Hindu symbol and is either right handed or left, right for good, left meaning Night and Magic...mysticism.

The NAZIs use the same RH version, they just rotated it 45 deg. CCW.
 Ezzee
Joined: 7/26/2004
Msg: 23
Contraversery over the confederate flag.
Posted: 8/15/2008 1:56:58 PM

Offended? A symbol that in the past has invoked racism, hatred and violence against a race of people might be considered as something more than just an "offense".


You know, as a Native American, I say the same thing the US Flag sometimes.

Fact of the matter is that a symbol, like the Confederate Battle Flag or the US Flag is open to interpretation. And those meanings can be perverse or wholesome.

To me, the Confederate Battle Flag stands for an important time in this nations history. A time when our country was divided over an important issue in which Abraham Lincoln decided to overstep his authorities and shred the constitution so that he could keep the USA together, be it good or bad. It is still an important time in our history.

I think this kid should have no problem being able to wear the belt buckle. Hell, I have a belt buckle with the Confederate flag on it. I also have a belt buckle with a bald eagle and the Confederate Flag and the US flag crossing. Because they are important symbols to our history to me. It isn't about racism. And I'll tell you right now, just because I wear them has nothing to do with racism or diversity. I have been recognized several times in my commitment to diversity at my University.

So I tell you what, keep your whining, complaining, this that and all the other stuff about racist symbols. That is your right. But one thing you may wish to relive is the opening presentation in Da Vinci Code. More interesting stuff about symbols and rhetoric.
 Strongdad
Joined: 6/9/2007
Msg: 34
Contraversery over the confederate flag.
Posted: 8/15/2008 10:21:21 PM
Why cant dude just wear his silly beltbuckle off campus?

Schools can employ dress standards for a lot of reasons. He needs to leave it at home while he goes to school.

What's the big mystery?
 RDtoo
Joined: 1/30/2005
Msg: 35
view profile
History
Contraversery over the confederate flag.
Posted: 8/15/2008 10:29:31 PM
When the Berlin Wall came down, a photo was taken of a guy standing on top of it waving the Stars and Bars. He was showing true Rebel spirit. That is what the Stars and Bars has always represented, the Rebel Spirit. It never represented hatred. Does anyone actually believe that slaveholders were out there fighting for their rights??? No, the boys in Gray could barely afford shoes let alone slaves. Research it if you think I am wrong. Think I will go buy me a Stars and Bars t-shirt and dare anyone to say anything to me about it here in Michigan. Go Rebs!!
 mcbobly
Joined: 8/28/2005
Msg: 41
view profile
History
Contraversery over the confederate flag.
Posted: 8/16/2008 5:40:30 AM
News flash people, IT'S JUST A FREAKIN FLAG OR SYMBOL! Get a grip, it only means something if someone is "looking" to read something into it. It's a freaking flag like all other flags around the world, who cares what era or area it's from it has NO MEANING until some people read meaning into it. Let it go and get over it already, there are much bigger things to be worried about, geez.
 RDtoo
Joined: 1/30/2005
Msg: 49
view profile
History
Contraversery over the confederate flag.
Posted: 8/16/2008 10:55:27 AM
You know I am offended at black kids wearing a big X on their shirt to represent Malcolm X, a common criminal who hated white people. If they can wear their X, then Southern Kids should be able to wear the Stars and Bars X. You wear your X and I'll wear mine.
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 50
Contraversery over the confederate flag.
Posted: 8/16/2008 10:56:10 AM
I have no problem with protecting speech which offends others.

But this is a public school where others are legally obligated to attend. This isn't a case of the right of free speech, but of conflicting rights. And that's where you always get the muddy solutions.

If someone wants to parade around in a sheet and hood and burn a cross on his own front lawn I'll defend his right to do so, even though I obviously disagree. But if my daughter has to attend the local high school, I don't want her subjected to hate directed at anyone. And for many, many students there, the Confederate flag has become a symbol of racist hate.
 bigshrek
Joined: 11/15/2007
Msg: 59
Contraversery over the confederate flag.
Posted: 8/16/2008 1:58:01 PM
About the Flag-raising in Florida...did anyone notice that it was two BLACK Sons of Confederate Veterans who finished raising the Confederate Battle Flag the last 30-odd feet up the pole??

Myself, I think they should have chosen the Confederate Standard rather than the Battle Flag. It's as polarizing as Hillary Clinton.

But back in the 80's I wore a grey Pink Panther t-shirt to high school that had him in a Confederate Kepi & holding the Battle Flag...nobody ever even blinked at it. Being a History major gave me a totally DIFFERENT view of the Civil War...and a view that I still hold to this day...that our Federal Government has gotten so huge and so far past what the Founding Fathers ever intended...and that States have predominately lost the ability to HAVE many rights...that one day the whole thing will do just as the USSR did...collapse due to the onerus weight of Buracracy.

I really can't see us continuing to do business with the government in it's current deteriorating state for more than 50-100 years without a MAJOR change. A couple more idiot presidents & congressmen and it will lead to something horrible.
 bigshrek
Joined: 11/15/2007
Msg: 62
Contraversery over the confederate flag.
Posted: 8/16/2008 2:31:08 PM
^^^ Yep. I also believe that all schools should stick to a standard uniform just to alleviate headaches.

I went to a shop recently to buy my monster (age-9) some school clothes...I decided to go with three collared Izod's and two Nintendo (DK & Mario) tshirts...two blue jeans & three khaki slacks. He LOOKS better all dressed up, but realizing that kids wil be kids (and in HIS case he thinks he's a flying tree monkey) I bowed to the inevitable tshirt & blue jeans for at least TWO outfits. I would VASTLY prefer that he wore a Uniform for several reasons...not the least of which is Conformity. School is Learning Time, not an Individual Rights Display.

Less Distractions = Better Grades.
 Ezzee
Joined: 7/26/2004
Msg: 63
Contraversery over the confederate flag.
Posted: 8/16/2008 2:45:15 PM

Once again, how is it any different from a child wearing a Nazi uniform if he had german grandparents? Or hell, a shirt expressing terrorist sympathies?


While in your opinion this may be the case, then I would rebut this as questions of my own:

A.) How can one look at the American Flag with any feelings of pride when they have a history of genocide within their history?

B.) How can one look upon the Canadian Flag with any feelings of pride when they have a history of Humanitarian Rights violations?

My point being this. All countries/flags have blood on their hands, whether it be American, German, English, Austraillian, Israelli, or what have you.

And while all countries/flags do have this blood upon their hands, we have chosen to overlook these other atrocities and fly them proudly as patriots of that country, and for the deeper meanings of the flag.

If a person is offended by the Confederate Battle Falg being displayed because of the blood that they have on their hands, I can't do anything about that except to attempt to help them understand the deeper meaning.

However, if this society is going to take such a shallow symbolism upon the Confederate Battle Flag, then in the name of my ancestors, I will have to take the same shallow symbolism upon other flags.

That being said, to me, the American Flag stands for Genocide of the native people and the Canadian Flag stands for Human Rights Atrocities of the aboriginal people. So if you are going to deny me my right to fly the Canadian Battle Flag, then maybe it is time to start fighting against your right to fly the American or Canadian Flag based on those same principles.

I'm sorry if people see this as flame baiting, but as a previous poster stated, one can't suppress an emotional issue.
 stephen_86
Joined: 8/10/2008
Msg: 67
Contraversery over the confederate flag.
Posted: 8/16/2008 3:33:46 PM
The American Flag stood for slavery a lot longer than any confederate banner. Should we ban the American flag in our schools as well.

The emancipation proclomation signed by Lincoln only freed the slaves in the Confederate states. Slavery was still legal in several states that fought for the North. Therefore slavery was legal in the Union after the Union Outlawed it in the Confederacy.

The Confederate Army was the only Army in the war to have black Officers. The union, even after allowing blacks to enlist, still refused to allow them to be officers.

The KKK does in fact use the Stars and Bars as a racist symbol They also use a Christian cross. If you are going to ban the Starts and bars then you would have to ban the cross as well.

A symbol is only racist if you let it be. That goes for the people who are offended by it as well as the people who try to use it as such. I wonder how long the Natzi's and other racist woudl continue to use it as a symbol if the NAACP carried it in all their marches. Just a thought. If you want to take aeay the power of a racist symbol. Stop treating it like a racist symbol.

Just my two cents.
 RDtoo
Joined: 1/30/2005
Msg: 70
view profile
History
Contraversery over the confederate flag.
Posted: 8/17/2008 1:08:04 AM
Historian Shelby Foote said that the South remembers the War more vividly than the North because they lost. He compared it to the all the fights he had as a young boy. He only recalled the ones where he got whipped. Every Southerner I have known who displayed the flag did it out of Southern Pride, not some hidden or overt racism. In my mind the Confederacy is not the lost cause, it is a part of our American Heritage and should be allowed to be remembered.

It's funny that we speak of freedom of speech but are so quick to deny people the right to speak less it offend someone. That is except Southerners, Church goers, and blondes. They are put down every day and nobody says a thing about it...
 RDtoo
Joined: 1/30/2005
Msg: 79
view profile
History
Contraversery over the confederate flag.
Posted: 8/17/2008 8:56:58 AM
Outofthedesert mentioned a little known period in history to most Americans. Reconstruction. This was the total rape and abuse of the South and an effort by the U.S. Government to humiliate the South for secession. If Reconstruction had not happened, we would not be discussing this issue right now, nor would there have ever been a group called the KKK. If I had been a Southerner at the time, I would have pushed to secede again.
Show ALL Forums  > Current Events  > Contraversery over the confederate flag.