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Show ALL Forums  > Politics  > White House: John McCain was NOT Tortured in Vietnam      Home login  
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 PVS
Joined: 4/20/2006
Msg: 2
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White House: John McCain was NOT Tortured in VietnamPage 1 of 5    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5)
enough with this pesky linear deduction. BURN THE LIBERAL!!!!
 incogNEEEtoe
Joined: 8/10/2008
Msg: 6
White House: John McCain was NOT Tortured in Vietnam
Posted: 8/19/2008 8:21:46 PM
Arguing that John McCain was not tortured is nearly as ridiculous as claiming the Holocaust never happened...
 PVS
Joined: 4/20/2006
Msg: 7
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White House: John McCain was NOT Tortured in Vietnam
Posted: 8/19/2008 8:26:03 PM
indeed. its only 'torture' if it happens to an american...well...a white american.
like waterboarding. when the japanese did it in ww2 it was tried as a war crime. but now...


hey, it sounds cool and fun doesnt it? "waterboarding". sounds like some new waterpark attraction.

surfs up dude!
 geeleebee
Joined: 5/26/2008
Msg: 9
White House: John McCain was NOT Tortured in Vietnam
Posted: 8/19/2008 8:31:02 PM
Bush says...('puke' icon goes here)

Any of you recall what the Bush people did to McCain during their election battle? It was filthy, and I don't even LIKE McCain. If you accept the word of slimeholes like Bush and Cheney ('spit' icon here) then you'd better make a tinfoil hat and hide under a bush, cuz the aliens done landed in your back yard.
 Ready4SomethingFun
Joined: 3/17/2008
Msg: 10
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White House: John McCain was NOT Tortured in Vietnam
Posted: 8/19/2008 8:31:43 PM
McCain suffered two fractured arms that happened when he was shot down. The Vietnamese repeatedly strung him up by his arms as torture, and refused him any medical attention for them. That comes from several other POW's who were there at the time. Waterboarding would probably be a welcome diversion from that bit of fun.

That's just one of the top of my head. Surf the 'net. There's tons more, not out of McCain's mouth, but other P.O.W.'s.

And for the record, McCain pushed the reform on prisoner torture harder than most at the time when that legislation was in debate.I seem to remember when he and Bush were in some pretty heated debates on the matter.

Torture is listening to Obama crsuaders try to smear McCain with all kinds of nonsense becasue they can't anything real to go after. If Obama became President and was captured in a war, he'd probably poop his pants and give any every secret he knows within 2 minutes on a waterboard and then it would all be over.
 PVS
Joined: 4/20/2006
Msg: 11
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White House: John McCain was NOT Tortured in Vietnam
Posted: 8/19/2008 8:33:48 PM
i believe the famous love-line was
"don't give me that shit. and take your hands off me."

http://www.perrspectives.com/blog/archives/001059.htm

this however was before mccain began running for the presidency and pandering to the far rabid right
 geeleebee
Joined: 5/26/2008
Msg: 15
White House: John McCain was NOT Tortured in Vietnam
Posted: 8/19/2008 8:45:40 PM
Read the title: that is the point being made.
p.s.
duh
 PVS
Joined: 4/20/2006
Msg: 16
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White House: John McCain was NOT Tortured in Vietnam
Posted: 8/19/2008 8:49:23 PM
"John McCain and many others Americans were tortured by the North Vietnamese. The terrorists in Club Gitmo just get a good bath yet the left don't care about any Americans tortured. No empathy at all for Americans but lots of love for the much needed well bathed terrorists."

suspected terrorists

wait, im sorry...our freedom loving administration has managed to suspend habeas corpus...my bad
 StrangerInTheHouse
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 19
White House: John McCain was NOT Tortured in Vietnam
Posted: 8/19/2008 9:14:25 PM
McCain and other republicans maintain that certain types of what we all know (whether we admit it or not) to be torture are okay.
I disagree.
I think that soldiers who risk their lives to defend their country should be treated with respect and left alone, regardless of who that country is.
I also think other nations should do this.
This is why the Geneva conventions were accepted by the signator nations to begin with.
We all know that these are laws which are going to be broken. Prisoners are going to be killed, tortured, beheaded, etc, etc...
At one time, the US was a nation that brought people who did this to justice... but when the lawbreakers are our own and breaking the laws suits their own political purpose, all the sudden the definitions become shaky.

Make your own conclusions.
 Ready4SomethingFun
Joined: 3/17/2008
Msg: 24
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White House: John McCain was NOT Tortured in Vietnam
Posted: 8/19/2008 9:37:57 PM
You know I seem to recall about 4 years ago, someone named Kerry was waiving around his Vietnam paper cuts like the red bagde of courage, and all the dems were crying about how Bush was a "deserter" and crap like that. Remember how great a hero Kerry was?

Now we hand you a real hero and you try to paint him to be a crybaby, even when he's on your side some of the time.

It amazes me how the odor changes when the same shoe is on the other guys foot.
 exodusi1
Joined: 8/19/2006
Msg: 31
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White House: John McCain was NOT Tortured in Vietnam
Posted: 8/19/2008 10:38:08 PM
First, I think it is pretty funny that the only conservative to get the premise was 04, not sure what prize you get buddy, but I'm sure the rest will receive some lovely parting gifts. . .

The irony for me is either McCain told the truth when he confessed to the Viet Cong, which supports his new position that torture is useful, or he lied to them, which conflicts with his current position. So, he is lying now or telling the truth then!

He DID flip flop on torture, though, flip flop is too light of a phrase for what this means. I know, because after that, I lost ANY respect I had for him as a leader.

I wrote him a letter, his response; to inform me that I didn't understand the measures necessary to protect our nation. . .

I beg to differ!

He was courageous then and I respect his service, but anyone who would lose the one moral high ground that makes them who they are, just for a shot at support from the neocons, is NOT A LEADER!
 StrangerInTheHouse
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 33
White House: John McCain was NOT Tortured in Vietnam
Posted: 8/19/2008 11:10:12 PM

You know I seem to recall about 4 years ago, someone named Kerry was waiving around his Vietnam paper cuts like the red bagde of courage, and all the dems were crying about how Bush was a "deserter" and crap like that. Remember how great a hero Kerry was?

Now we hand you a real hero and you try to paint him to be a crybaby, even when he's on your side some of the time.

It amazes me how the odor changes when the same shoe is on the other guys foot.

Jeez.. the republicans should be the last ones to complain after the hack job they did on Kerry...
I think the republican smear campaign against Kerry was a success, and might have cost him the election.
" It amazes me how the odor changes when the same shoe is on the other guys foot. " also applies to republicans when they get their "war hero" smeared. They can't handle it. I'm not saying it's right, but neither was the swiftvets.
If the republicans don't like that kind of stuff, why did they start it?
Just another dirty tactic introduced by republicans.
I'm not defending it. It's just a fact.
Maybe a good upshot of this will be that the republicans will stop slurring someone's record of honorable service in the US military so it doesn't come back at them in the next election?
I doubt it. There are many less republicans in Washington who've served in the nation's military than democrats...
I don't know if McCain was tortured by the North Vietnamese... there's a story out that he let them know right away that he was the son of an admiral and for that reason they considered him a very valuable prisoner and didn't mess with him too much... but that could be a lie.
What amazes me is... that if he was tortured, why does he now say that waterboarding is okay?
I don't get that...
 cncgandolf
Joined: 7/29/2007
Msg: 36
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White House: John McCain was NOT Tortured in Vietnam
Posted: 8/19/2008 11:47:38 PM
"As for his character, McCain:

1. voted against the anti-torture amendment to the intelligence authorization bill, which would have applied the same interrogation standards to the CIA as those McCain applied to the United States military.

2. led the effort to pass the Military Commissions Act, which among other things granted interrogators retroactive immunity for past instances of torture while establishing the military tribunal system that allows the executive branch the joint duties of judge and jury.

3. criticized a U.S. Supreme Court decision allowing detainees to challenge in an impartial court of law their imprisonment and secret evidence being used against them. (important for the evidence to be challenged if extracted through torture).

....
McCain's 95 percent support score for last year was the highest in the chamber. "

Is enhanced interrogation a euphamism for torture - of course. Even if a POW is only held prisoner try going and spending a few days in prison and you might change your point of view about it being anything but heroic.

Are current US war prisoners receiving much the same treatment that McCain did. Yes.

Even though he had lived through the experience they are having McCain still voted against ending the "enhanced interrogation."

However, to jump to a conclusion as to why he did or that this makes hin a person that approves of the behavior is an ASSumption. To claim flimsy excuses to show he doesn't are potential fallacies. Minor issues with the law could easily be handled with amendments to the law. Better to have some negotiable law than none. Soon as it passes you can start negotiating the changes you want. Just get something in place to stop the "enhanced toture."
 eeeo4U
Joined: 6/25/2007
Msg: 39
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White House: John McCain was NOT Tortured in Vietnam
Posted: 8/20/2008 7:10:59 AM
Stranger, I too would agree that soldiers who fight for their country should be respected and treated fairly. I guess the line being drawn is between soldiers defendint their nation-states and fanatical insurgents attempting to impose their bleak will upon not only nation states but the world. A member of an actual army, even a Guevaraist "national liberation front" is one thing, a terrorist is another and I don't know where to draw the line...maybe we should err on the side of gentleness but when we use the Marquis of Queensbury rules and the enemy uses ninjutsu how can we win?
Maybe it doesn't matter who wins...hope you all enjoy living under Sharia law, I'm sorry I won't!
 eeeo4U
Joined: 6/25/2007
Msg: 42
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White House: John McCain was NOT Tortured in Vietnam
Posted: 8/20/2008 10:13:11 AM
Stefano, they're scared of you guys...especially the Italians in the North End and the Irish in Southie...nope, they're sneaking down through Alberta and Manitoba disguised as Blackfoot Indians!!!
 StrangerInTheHouse
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 43
White House: John McCain was NOT Tortured in Vietnam
Posted: 8/20/2008 10:27:31 AM

Maybe it doesn't matter who wins...hope you all enjoy living under Sharia law, I'm sorry I won't!

eeeo4u: So you're saying that if we don't torture, then we'll wind up losing the war on terror? ... and that's the reason we'll lose it?
You didn't write that, but your comment seems to imply that.
Your comment also seems to make the assumption that if we then lose that war, the Muslims will invade us, overthrow our government, throw the US constitution out the window and we here in the US will be living under Muslim law.

and that's why we're invading them?
False dilemma?
Straw man argument?
ridiculous assumptions based on nothing but dogma?
I think so.
Get real, Dude. Don't write things that insult everyone's intelligence. If you have a point, you should make it and if you don't... then don't.
 eeeo4U
Joined: 6/25/2007
Msg: 44
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White House: John McCain was NOT Tortured in Vietnam
Posted: 8/20/2008 12:40:26 PM
I don't believe we need to torture anybody. However, I do believe that prisoners of war and terrorists are two different categories of people. I also believe that people willing to sacrifice their children, mentally challenged people, and themselves will not be discouraged by anything less than total defeat and humiliation...I honestly think if Bush 41 had put Saddam away in 1991 12 years later his son would not have had us in Iraq, mainly because Saddam was hailed as a victor by his fellow Arabs since we let him live...mercy is a sign of weakness.
 geeleebee
Joined: 5/26/2008
Msg: 46
White House: John McCain was NOT Tortured in Vietnam
Posted: 8/20/2008 1:05:28 PM
Thanks for the tour.
Contrary to your opinion, I would guess that the the 'most unpleasant aspect of life' for many?/most?/all? incarcerated at Gitmo would be that they haven't been charged with anything.
 StrangerInTheHouse
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 47
White House: John McCain was NOT Tortured in Vietnam
Posted: 8/20/2008 1:13:47 PM
On whether ununiformed combatants should be treated the same as prisoners of war: I don't think the Afghans even had a uniformed army to my knowledge... Outside of Ethiopia or some other place everyone's starving to death, they're about the poorest nation on earth. People drink water out of the road runoffs...the same roads where they herd their livestock. The people don't have toilet paper or clean water, so they wipe themselves with their left and cook with their right.
Hey, how about the northern alliance that helped our side? Did they have uniforms?
I think not.
If you attack a nation... as the US did in both Iraq and Afghanistan...Does it give you the right to torture and kill them for defending their country?
What would you do if the US was attacked and you didn't have a uniform on?
Would you not fight back?
As someone else said, "If someone invades my home and I don't have a uniform on, I'll choose to fight with what I'm wearing... and if I don't have an Uzzi, I might use a butcher knife or a soup can. I'll do whatever needs to be done to protect my home."

Wouldn't you do that?

So, how can we call them "terorists" for doing what we would do under the same circumstances?

Don't forget: we're in their country. They're not 911 suspects... They're protecting their homes and families from outside invaders. We are those invaders.

Hey, if waterboarding or torture made any war shorter, maybe it would be the best thing... but what's the point?
How could you learn anything from a person being tortured that you didn't know already?
Doesn't a person who's being tortured just admit to whatever you tell them to, anyway?
Why would they disagree?
If they did, you'd just torture them more, right?

I think the strongest example of how torturing doesn't help us get information is just that we haven't gotten enough useful information by torturing to win the war up to this point. They're just moving the battle to where there are less soldiers to fight them.
 Ready4SomethingFun
Joined: 3/17/2008
Msg: 49
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White House: John McCain was NOT Tortured in Vietnam
Posted: 8/21/2008 9:53:42 PM
Yeah, and speaking of those horribly torturous conditions where our detainees are being held---wasn't it good ol' Michael Moore who boohooed and cried about how good the health care was for those detainees, better than for the poor of the U.S.A.?


And I'm glad they got one someone to stand up for Kerry and say he was a real hero. I didn't bother to read the story Erik, but if the dateline on that link is the close to the time that it happened, I'd say it was a little late. If it did happen before the election then it played little or no part in it anyways.

I personally think anyone who fights for our country is a hero. I don't want it seem as if I am belittling Kerry. He served his country, I respect that, but if what he did was good, so is what McCain did, and I don't think there should be any disagreement on that by either side.
 eeeo4U
Joined: 6/25/2007
Msg: 51
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White House: John McCain was NOT Tortured in Vietnam
Posted: 8/22/2008 9:29:02 AM
I personally thought that another Kerrey, Senator Bob Kerrey of Nebraska, former Navy SEAL and Medal of Honor winner, would have made an excellent President and he was a Democrat. However, the fundraisers and powers that be preferred Clinton and drove me straight into the arms of the Republican Party. I would have voted for Bob Kerrey over Bush 41...he was a hero, he was honest, he was a self-made businessman.
 wvwaterfall
Joined: 1/17/2007
Msg: 53
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White House: John McCain was NOT Tortured in Vietnam
Posted: 8/22/2008 2:58:16 PM

hey had conscripted some captured low-level West Virginian grunts into guard duty,.....


Hey now, careful who you bash. Contrary to popular belief, Deliverance was not filmed in nor was it about WV. And WV has the highest percentage of military service from its population in the country. Be nice.

Dave
 Boricua Papi
Joined: 10/8/2007
Msg: 54
White House: John McCain was NOT Tortured in Vietnam
Posted: 8/22/2008 3:19:35 PM
There are a lot of liberals in these POF thing. Especially talking about sex. Obama people
 StrangerInTheHouse
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 57
White House: John McCain was NOT Tortured in Vietnam
Posted: 8/22/2008 7:47:15 PM

I don't think referencing McCain's time as a POW, or his many injuries suffered, and great pain (both physical and psychological) for political gain does any real good - nor serves any real purpose.

But remember, that's a double edged sword.
I can believe he was tortured. It's consistent with what I've read and heard from other POW's... but the way McCain and his supporters keep bringing it up... as if we didn't remember that... It seems as if they feel that alone would qualify someone to be president... an idea with which I strongly disagree.
I think alot of people are sick of hearing about it, so at this point, they're reacting...

Shouldn't the candidate's politics, achievements (Neither of these candidates has ever really achieved that much in Washington. McCain's heart was once in the right place when he voted to limit campaign contributions, and he's been on all these committees, but WTH did they ever do that was good or right?) and personal character be more important than whether or not they were in the military? or were a prisoner of war?

I think so.

For that, I believe Obama's far more qualified.
 StrangerInTheHouse
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 59
White House: John McCain was NOT Tortured in Vietnam
Posted: 8/23/2008 7:59:19 AM
^That's what I'm talking about.
It's well worth a "mention" concerning his personal character... that he served his country and suffered in the process, but that experience can't be considered justification on it's own as a presidential qualifier. It's not like everyone doesn't know already.
... and his going along with Bush's policies on detainment of terrorist suspects without trial or evidence disrespects all soldiers of all nations as it undermines their rights. It's like a cancer victim like Robert Dole saying "Nobody's proved cigarettes cause cancer." (Another republican sellout.)
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