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Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > IQ is a garbage tool for determining intelligence      Home login  
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 Irespire
Joined: 7/30/2008
Msg: 1
IQ is a garbage tool for determining intelligencePage 1 of 10    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10)
While IQ tests might measure basic proficiency and speed in answering basic questions related to popular areas of life, they do not really give an accurate assessment of a person's 'intelligence', which involves many factors. An IQ test is just that, a test, and your results can be improved by practice or condition, or reduced by lack thereof.

As someone who has scored very high, I could not believe the questions I was seeing. They expect THIS to be a determinant of something so complex and deep? THIS? And yes, I'm talking about a 'real' IQ test, administered by a 'licensed psychologist', not that I think much of that profession. An average Joe could score 130+ if they practiced and put their mind to it.

About 'IQ tests being a predictor of success in life', that might be true if you narrowly define success as 'monetary earnings', because those who are the best at (and don't mind) doing repetitive, boring, but sometimes minorly technically involved tasks at high efficacy usually make the most money.

I love how they've also linked IQ to 'genetics' (which is nonsense), but also find that certain races have much lower 'IQ's'. Yet they don't want to say that black people are 'inferior' in line with their bizarrely skewed conclusions because it would make them look nuts, so they just ignore it. Well, except, was it....Francis Crick? Or Watson? The old guy recently under fire in the news for saying some racist stuff.

The 'race' discrepancy really just shows that IQ is a function of learning environment and family. Ultimately, it also is a self-fulfilling prophecy...if you judge a kid at a young age, chances are that he or she will also develop slowly because of that judgment which carries over to parents and teachers and whatnot.

I end this post with a great quote:

"If . . . the impression takes root that these tests really measure intelligence, that they constitute a sort of last judgment on the child's capacity, that they reveal "scientifically" his predestined ability, then it would be a thousand times better if all the intelligence testers and all their questionnaires were sunk without warning in the Sargasso Sea."

-Walter Lippman
 father3
Joined: 7/11/2006
Msg: 2
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IQ is a garbage tool for determining intelligence
Posted: 9/4/2008 8:48:29 PM

While IQ tests might measure basic proficiency and speed in answering basic questions related to popular areas of life, they do not really give an accurate assessment of a person's 'intelligence', which involves many factors

IQ meaning 'Intelligence Quotient' is a score relative to everyone else taking the test.

An average Joe could score 130+ if they practiced and put their mind to it.
An average Joe would score around 100, unless he was able to study the test questions beforehand.

About 'IQ tests being a predictor of success in life', that might be true if you narrowly define success as 'monetary earnings',
IQ tests are not predictors of success in life, be it monetarily or socially. Emotional Intelligence (EQ) is a far better indicator of future success.

I love how they've also linked IQ to 'genetics' (which is nonsense),
IQ is linked to genetics.

but also find that certain races have much lower 'IQ's'.
IQ's are culturally sensitive. The only meaningful IQ for an individual would be one that is measured against others of the same culture.

The 'race' discrepancy really just shows that IQ is a function of learning environment and family.
A lot of questions on an IQ test are related to culture (learning environment and family) but IQ tests always have a section that requires abstract thinking. You can't 'learn' abstract thinking.
 Obsidian71
Joined: 6/9/2008
Msg: 3
IQ is a garbage tool for determining intelligence
Posted: 9/4/2008 9:21:20 PM
IQ testing is worthless IMO.

Attempting to link IQ to a social construct as "race" is even more absurd.

I tend to laugh when someone begins to wax poetic about IQ simply because it's such a fallacious
concept, nothing good or meaningful usually comes afterwards.

Intelligence is one of those things that does best when it speaks for itself.

O
 Vancer
Joined: 10/29/2006
Msg: 4
IQ is a garbage tool for determining intelligence
Posted: 9/4/2008 9:26:04 PM
We all have some pretty awesome hardware in our skulls.
Too bad natural selection burdened us with such temperamental batteries.
 Irespire
Joined: 7/30/2008
Msg: 5
IQ is a garbage tool for determining intelligence
Posted: 9/4/2008 11:18:58 PM


IQ meaning 'Intelligence Quotient' is a score relative to everyone else taking the test.


Of course.



An average Joe would score around 100, unless he was able to study the test questions beforehand.
It has nothing to do with the specific test questions, just the general area, basic efficacy, etc.


IQ tests are not predictors of success in life, be it monetarily or socially.
They're said to be, from a lot of sources, if I recall.


IQ is linked to genetics.
By garbage studies that don't take into account other possible explanations, biases, and variables.


IQ's are culturally sensitive. The only meaningful IQ for an individual would be one that is measured against others of the same culture.
Yet that's not really the way they are used today.


A lot of questions on an IQ test are related to culture (learning environment and family) but IQ tests always have a section that requires abstract thinking. You can't 'learn' abstract thinking.
You can train yourself to be better at it.
 Sivoph
Joined: 8/2/2008
Msg: 6
IQ is a garbage tool for determining intelligence
Posted: 9/4/2008 11:56:52 PM
IQ is a pretty reliable tool when determining g or general intelligence. It is a broad platform which we base all our skillsets off of. I will, however, agree with you to the extent that IQ is not really indicative of a person's potential. Obviously we excel in some areas more so than others. That's why Multiple Intelligence Theory has been put forward. Pretty much self-explanatory.

A stellar IQ in no way ensures material success in life...in fact, the higher your IQ jets off into the stratosphere the more likely you are to be a social outcast. It's really how you utilize your smarts and the circumstances surrounding you. Race is definitely a factor; not because of biology, but because of the socioeconomic divisions that exist in our society...and to a broader extent, our world.
 CharlesEdm
Joined: 9/16/2006
Msg: 7
IQ is a garbage tool for determining intelligence
Posted: 9/5/2008 12:08:20 AM

As someone who has scored very high, I could not believe the questions I was seeing. They expect THIS to be a determinant of something so complex and deep? THIS? And yes, I'm talking about a 'real' IQ test, administered by a 'licensed psychologist', not that I think much of that profession. An average Joe could score 130+ if they practiced and put their mind to it.


Really you lost any credibility when you said the average person would get 130. You know what happens to these tests when people begin to score an average that high?

They eliminate the easy questions until the average is back to 100.
 Verzen
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 8
IQ is a garbage tool for determining intelligence
Posted: 9/5/2008 2:25:53 AM
You really have very little idea on what you are talking about. Although the premise may be true since our brains react differently to patterns and various questions, but the part that made you sound like a moron is that genetics play a huge role in how intelligent you are. This is apparent in the majority of Arkansas and Georgia.


Both of my parent's are college graduates and everyone of my siblings have an average IQ of 130. (My dad has a master's)

When you actually find out what you are talking about... Go ahead post back accurate information so you don't come off as a pompous ass. =)
 Irespire
Joined: 7/30/2008
Msg: 9
IQ is a garbage tool for determining intelligence
Posted: 9/5/2008 6:10:33 AM
Did you ever read what I said? You're the only one who 'lost all credibility' by not reading properly.

I said could. If they trained and put their mind to it properly. Which they don't. Obviously they'd push it back to an equilibrium, but let's say just instantly, a lot of average people could get 130.
 Irespire
Joined: 7/30/2008
Msg: 10
IQ is a garbage tool for determining intelligence
Posted: 9/5/2008 6:12:47 AM
Okay, because a lot of people assume, let's use occam's razor to falsely assume that it's due to 'genetics' instead of complex variables that we have little control over. While some aspects of thinking might, possibly be due to something genetic related, we really have no clue and it's silly to make assumptions based on simplistic explanations.

I love how you call me a 'pompous ass' then go to brag about your silly family.
 NoseyNeighbor
Joined: 2/19/2008
Msg: 11
IQ is a garbage tool for determining intelligence
Posted: 9/5/2008 9:24:19 AM
While IQ tests might measure basic proficiency and speed in answering basic questions related to popular areas of life....An IQ test is just that, a test

That statement reads like a 6th grader. I hear the school bell ringing.

IQ is not a test. IQ is a measure of general intelligence in the areas of reasoning, problem solving, creativity, verbal fluency, etc. It is reported in percentiles as an IQ Quotient. It is not a proficiency test which measures how well one has accumulated a skill such as language proficiency.

Sure, it does a poor job with 'practical intelligence' and uses white-anglo-saxon values and wording. But who cares if you used a pair of pliers to open a beer bottle, I wanna know if you can follow a multidimensional trend in global food distribution.

your results can be improved by practice or condition, or reduced by lack thereof.

Maybe that's why IQ predicts academic success with very high accuracy. And used by educational systems as a method of placement. And used as a legal measure of mental capacity.

About 'IQ tests being a predictor of success in life', that might be true if you narrowly define success as 'monetary earnings

You bet Einstein. Not only does it predict occupational success, promotions, life-long earnings; IQ also predicts ability to reason correctly, use language effectively, and yeah even success in relationships.

So you guys just keep dumbing it down....while our profits soar from exceptional real estate.
 Verzen
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 12
IQ is a garbage tool for determining intelligence
Posted: 9/5/2008 10:53:45 AM
Irespire, The family thing was a genetic example. Do you even know what pompous means? It sure doesn't mean, "Having the ability to prove your point by using valid examples"
 father3
Joined: 7/11/2006
Msg: 13
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IQ is a garbage tool for determining intelligence
Posted: 9/5/2008 11:41:44 AM

You know what happens to these tests when people begin to score an average that high?

They eliminate the easy questions until the average is back to 100.


Actually, the way the tests are scored will automatically set 130 as 100. It's a quotient remember. The score is based relative to everyone who takes the test.
 Verzen
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 15
IQ is a garbage tool for determining intelligence
Posted: 9/5/2008 1:01:36 PM
So you are saying that autistic people arn't that smart?

I bring you exhibit A:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbASOcqc1Ss

Rule of thumb? Don't generalize.
 Verzen
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 16
IQ is a garbage tool for determining intelligence
Posted: 9/5/2008 2:06:38 PM
Aspergers is a form of autism. It's on the autistic spectrum and it is known as, "Social autism." Many in the scientific community argue that it may be just a different way to think. I have aspergers. One of the main reason's I researched a lot on the subject.
Your problem is that you specify one group and you don't look at the variables. The variable being that there is a debate whether it is autism or not. However, despite the debate, you have clearly made your mind up that it is not considered autism when there are people currently in the field that know more than you do who remain neutral on the subject.
Who are you to proclaim to know more than these medical professionals?
 Irespire
Joined: 7/30/2008
Msg: 17
IQ is a garbage tool for determining intelligence
Posted: 9/5/2008 8:42:03 PM
LOL, medical professionals. 'Medicine' has absolutely nothing to do with understanding emotional problems. Regardless of what those psuedo-scientific hacks might think.
 Irespire
Joined: 7/30/2008
Msg: 18
IQ is a garbage tool for determining intelligence
Posted: 9/5/2008 8:51:32 PM
That statement reads like a 6th grader. I hear the school bell ringing.
hay look we got a major pseudo intellectual on our hands....



IQ is not a test. IQ is a measure of general intelligence in the areas of reasoning, problem solving, creativity, verbal fluency, etc. It is reported in percentiles as an IQ Quotient. It is not a proficiency test which measures how well one has accumulated a skill such as language proficiency.
Yes, IQ results are just 'test results'. People might 'think' that it actually 'measures' anything, but much of these 'broad attributes' can be sharpened and are largely accumulated skills. The problem is that most people have so little faith in themselves and their ability to grow. That's why they turn to IQ tests to validate their BS.



Maybe that's why IQ predicts academic success with very high accuracy. And used by educational systems as a method of placement. And used as a legal measure of mental capacity.
First, the fact that the legal system uses it as a legitimate measure does not mean anything, except in extreme cases such as obvious retardation.

And yeah, it does predict a lot of 'success', because it measures basic efficacy at doing boring, repetitive technical tasks, as well as 'test' mentality. It predicts job 'success' pretty well. The fact that it predicts academic 'success' should be a strike against it because the current academic system is a load of nonsense.


Not only does it predict occupational success, promotions, life-long earnings
Which does not necessarily have anything to do with anything innate, nor real 'intelligence'.


Q also predicts ability to reason correctly, use language effectively
Maybe because people who embody these traits have had a different upbringing? Oh wait, better to just assume that it's 'genetic' or 'inborn' because if you have a higher number it's all the more reason to brag about it.



So you guys just keep dumbing it down....while our profits soar from exceptional real estate.


You keep being a materialistic drone and living a pointless life, alright?

I think people like you are most of the reason why 'intelligence' has no real respect any more.
 seenitall
Joined: 5/19/2008
Msg: 19
IQ is a garbage tool for determining intelligence
Posted: 9/5/2008 9:02:16 PM
I strongly disagree. A timed high end IQ test such as those used by Mensa give enough information to determine an individuals basic proficency in basic intellecual skills, such as reading comprehension, vocabulary, spatial and pattern recognition and reasoning. Its not meant to be an in depth analysis of an individuals complete intelligence and abilities. I worked for awhile in corporate human resources and
for certain key positions we used it as a basic tool for assesing the persons basic capabilities, particularily for positions that required critical reasoning and technical work. That in conjunction with their verbal skills in a face to face interview and a basic writing test gave a pretty good indication of where to place them in the organization.
The overall score wasnt as important as how the test indicated where their strenghts and weaknesses lay.
 Irespire
Joined: 7/30/2008
Msg: 21
IQ is a garbage tool for determining intelligence
Posted: 9/6/2008 10:53:30 AM
I've seen mesna IQ tests and the questions often seem to come from highly obscure literature related sources. While it's fair to say that these might measure some kind of proficiency or knowledge, what's often implied by them is that they measure actual intelligence. I have no problem with any kind of proficiency test (well I do with some, but that's a separate issue), and they're already used extensively.
 Aphorism
Joined: 6/21/2007
Msg: 23
IQ is a garbage tool for determining intelligence
Posted: 9/6/2008 4:22:12 PM
Unfortunately for your thesis, it is contraindicated by neurological studies on elementary cognitive tasks, reaction times and g-factor intelligence, not to mention studies of monozygotic twins reared apart.

Also: IQ is only one psychometric description of "intelligence". See Cattell and Raven for more information.

Furthermore, your implication that the expectancy effect on student potential is significant fell in disrepute among the research community long ago but continues along its merry memetic way as folk wisdom and feel good pablum.

Finally, the idea that general intellectual aptitude is a "last judgment on a child's capacity" is a straw man. No psychometrician of repute subscribes to such a simplistic notion.

But then again, I could be mistaken...
~D~
 Irespire
Joined: 7/30/2008
Msg: 24
IQ is a garbage tool for determining intelligence
Posted: 9/6/2008 10:22:20 PM
I suggest you read the book 'the gene illusion'. Again the brain has been also shown to significantly change over time with experience, so unless 'studies' chart exact progress over a long time, its often impossible to attribute anything to genetics. Not to mention that these 'reared apart' studies are plagued by small sample size, previous contact, confirmation bias, etc etc etc. Not that I'm saying that some basic, broad attributes are not influenced. That's possible, even likely. I'm saying that these studies usually are bunk, or at least make a lot of assumptions that really aren't well founded.

It doesn't matter if the 'expectancy effect' (I'm assuming you mean that 'high IQ' causes biases in raising that change things for the 'better') has fallen out of favor with the 'research community' because the research community in the field of psychology is primarily BS. It's common sense that such a thing exists, and you don't need 'studies' to prove things that are obviously existent in a social context.

Parents who are told that their kid is 'smart' are going to push the kid harder because he or she now has more 'potential'. At least in many cases. I really don't care whether most 'professionals' believe this or not because the bulk of them have little grasp of reality due to being so soaked in their pseudo-intellectual pomp. Most aspects of psychology are pseudo-science.

Not that it's an entire judgment of a child's capacity, but it's often treated as a major indicator of potential....
 Verzen
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 25
IQ is a garbage tool for determining intelligence
Posted: 9/6/2008 10:26:31 PM
So, let me get this straight.. the college you were wanting to get in to declined your acceptance and not you are out to prove how "smart" you are... right?
 Merrylass
Joined: 12/30/2007
Msg: 26
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IQ is a garbage tool for determining intelligence
Posted: 9/7/2008 4:22:19 AM
[qutoe]A lot of questions on an IQ test are related to culture
Therein lies the problem. Those sections purport to measure 'general knowledge' but are overly biased towards culture. I think, were they removed, IQ tests would be more useful. I know I'd score higher on them if I'd continued a little farther in math. I was good at math but it bored me so I dropped it early and didn't learn some of the formulas and forgotten some of the others that IQ tests test. I can figure the answers out w/o the formulas but it takes longer. However, I, too do very well because of my language skills, pattern recognition skills, etc. I also do well in 'general knowledge' but, while I'm doing those questions, I see how easily a person from another culture would be at a disadvantage.


hay look we got a major pseudo intellectual on our hands....

Nope. A genuine intellectual, however, unfortunately, one who tends to be very abusive of those he deems fools (which is just about everybody else). And who often makes spelling and grammar mistakes
 RocketMan_Len
Joined: 7/5/2006
Msg: 27
IQ is a garbage tool for determining intelligence
Posted: 9/7/2008 7:12:18 AM

IQ tests are little more than trivia contests. These questions from a real test: "Who wrote Moby****" and "What continent is Madagascar nearest?" Knowing the answer to these questions merely means you paid attention is school. And they have little practical application in survival.


Which IQ tests are you taking...? The ones I've taken have nothing of that sort in them. The questions I've encountered most deal with solving basic relationship problems, sorting items into their proper order, identification of commonalities... that sort of thing.

Something like that, I can't picture how it can be biased. (Maybe I'm just not smart enough... )
 Irespire
Joined: 7/30/2008
Msg: 28
IQ is a garbage tool for determining intelligence
Posted: 9/7/2008 7:20:49 AM
No, IQ tests in general are just stupid.
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