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Joined: 1/13/2007
Msg: 1
Always the friend, never the ManPage 1 of 2    (1, 2)
I have been out and about with the internet dating crowd for several years now, and my experiences have mostly always turned out the same. No matter how long a woman chats with me, no matter how similar we are in opinions or views, I am ALWAYS seen as a friend, or a brother, and nothing else. That doesn't mean they want to stop associating with me, because they usually keep contact with me (or I with them) after the fact. They just don't want me to be their boyfriend.

I don't know how I project myself, but I usually try to be intimate with them after the first meeting (holding hands, hugs, maybe kisses). I always tell them I'm NOT interested in making friends, I'm strictly looking for a relationship. Maybe they just don't get the message.

Is it a sign that I move too fast? Or is it just that I keep landing the wrong fish? I'm continually reminded of my place by talks afterwards, and its very hard to listen to. Usually they'll find a different guy they've met (usually online), and how nice he is and how they're dating, yadda yadda. I have no interest in being their friend. Why should I bother? They don't want to date me. Nobody ever does.
Joined: 2/20/2008
Msg: 2
Always the friend, never the Man
Posted: 9/9/2008 7:18:20 PM
Dude, stop looking for a relationship. You can't force that. Maybe take it easy with intimate stuff after the first meeting too. At least wait for a couple of dates. The girl usually will let you know one way or another. Just don't miss your chance. With a lot of women, you don't get more than one shot. You miss it, you are done because they look at it as if you aren't interested. Holy crap, I sound like Hitch...

Other than that... screw 'em, it's their loss :)
Joined: 1/13/2007
Msg: 3
Always the friend, never the Man
Posted: 9/9/2008 8:13:52 PM
Actually, I have taken things slow before. Same ol' stuff though. She'll go find some other guy who sweeps her off her feet, or sometimes she'll end up in a one night stand with one of my friends (yeah, I have really good friends). I'm a pretty laid back guy, who tries to keep things nice and relaxed.
Joined: 7/14/2007
Msg: 4
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Always the friend, never the Man
Posted: 9/9/2008 8:24:00 PM
Brother, google something called 'the ladder theory'.
It seems that you are doing things that keep you in the friend zone. Guys do this alot. Instead of making your intent clear (despite what you say, your actions are obviously saying friends. Don't argue. The results speak for themselves. All of the women that you try and date see you as friend/ buddy so that is what you are projecting, despite what you say.
In my opinion, when you are meeting women. Flirt. Act like you want to be more than friends!! They know what the deal is! You are coming off to platonic. Forget the holding hands and hugs. I hold my grandma's hand and hug my brother.
Joined: 3/10/2007
Msg: 5
Always the friend, never the Man
Posted: 9/9/2008 8:25:55 PM

I always tell them I'm NOT interested in making friends
I have no interest in being their friend. Why should I bother?

Please don't take this the wrong way for I don't mean this as's just my opinion and how I see things (which really means diddley squat I assure you;).

But for me personally, I wouldn't want to date a man who doesn't see the value of being friends with both men and women. In other words, the " why should I bother being friends with a woman " would really, and I mean *really*... bother me.

But like I said, that's me. And maybe I've got it all wrong anyway...maybe you meant you didn't want to bother being friends with that one woman in particular and you didn't mean all women?

It's just that to me, your post is kinda coming across as if you're saying that unless absolutely necessary (as in wanting sex or a relationship), women are not worth having as friends. And unless I have it all wrong, that would be an immediate deal breaker to me. But that's just the way it is for me and not necessarily the way it is for others. And to each their own as they say;)

Joined: 4/21/2008
Msg: 6
Always the friend, never the Man
Posted: 9/9/2008 8:43:45 PM
I agree with previous posters about finding ways to show a woman that you want to be more than friends with her, AND also being willing to develop a connection with her that shows you can be a friend. Many women want to know that you can connect with them on a friendship level before they move on to a deeper, intimate level. (After all, friendship is part of a relationship, which is what you want.) One thing that's important here is the "rhythm" of the connection--keeping an eye on when the right time is to go from showing you can be a friend to becoming intimate, but not waiting so long that you let yourself stay on the "permanent friend" track and get steered away from the "intimacy" track. (Then again, you can't force her to go too fast.) Part of this is knowing how you conduct yourself--after all, you say, "I don't know how I project myself." Find ways to make yourself attractive with your personal magnetism; that includes NOT WANTING a relationship so much as finding the right ways to connect with her! And another part of it is chemistry. Maybe the right woman hasn't come along yet. I took a look at your profile, and being 23, you have lots of time ahead! I have some other ideas of how you could improve your profile and make it more attractive to women; one idea would be to take the word "idiot" out of your username. But in the end, it's all about how you see yourself as a man; how you carry yourself as a man; what you have to offer a woman; and how you do the dance of connection with a woman through each step of the process. It'll happen; just give it time.

Oh--you also ask, "Is it a sign that I move too fast? Or is it just that I keep landing the wrong fish?" You could always ask one or two of your girlfriends about that--get their feedback.
Joined: 9/3/2008
Msg: 7
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Always the friend, never the Man
Posted: 9/9/2008 8:51:51 PM
im a "always a friend and always a man".
I love men as they are much more fun to be around than most woman.
Friendship is an awesome foundation to build on.
If its set right it will withstand many of challenges.
I would like to give you some advice from a womans point of view.
A woman likes a man to have their head held way up high.
you can have self esteem but it has to start with you.
It really doesnt matter what you look like how big or small as self esteem is very attractive.
I should know ive battled my weight all my life and go up and down untill lately.
now i just keep going down.I believe in myself and although it took many years its doable.
I wish you the best of luck in finding that right person.
You have allready made a good start by asking for help.
isnt this dating service RAD
take care!
Joined: 7/20/2005
Msg: 8
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Always the friend, never the Man
Posted: 9/9/2008 9:32:15 PM
I took a look at your profile and it seems like it's filled with you being negative about yourself and about what you wish you were, so I'm guessing that negative attitude spills over onto your assessment of your relationships with women. If you have this sort of "woe is me" feeling, then anytime a woman doesn't want to be romantic with you, you take it as a personal rejection and get down about being "just" friends. Other guys might go through as much rejection as you, but let it slide off their back because they expect it, and don't worry about it as much. I actually find it sad when a man meets me and we may date or whatever, but then he DOESN'T want to be friends with me afterwards. I have a tendency to take THAT personally (though I am seeing that this is not it appears to be fairly common with guys not want to be friends with their exes and previous dates). So the fact that these women want you in their lives as friends should be a huge compliment. Take it as such.

A negative whiny attitude and being down about this stuff can be very unattractive to women, too, which creates sort of a vicious cycle of being down about not getting dates and then not getting more dates because you're down about it.

The best thing to do is work on loving your life as a single person. Dive into hobbies and interests and love who you are now.
Joined: 12/7/2006
Msg: 9
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Always the friend, never the Man
Posted: 9/9/2008 9:52:28 PM
OP, your problem is not unique. I suspect that many guys have and are probably still experiencing the same thing as you do. Unfortunately, there isn't a whole lot you can do about it. Finding someone that will click with you on a romantic level is ,imho, more of a matter of luck.

I have often liken the whole internet dating thing to a lottery draw. If you have a profile, you have one ticket. If your profile is on a few sites, you have a few tickets. The problem is, no matter what you do, no matter how many profiles you put up, your chance of hitting the big one does not improve significantly. You are still a long shot from winning the top prize. Far more frequently your numbers are not even close.

If a woman is not (sexually) attracted to you, which is basically what you're describing here, it doesn’t matter how much you have in common with her. The end result is that you are never gonna be anything more than 'just friends'. Been there done that myself. But if she is attracted to you, whatever differences you may have won't matter as much. She will want to date you first and hope that the differences can be resolved later. That's been my experience.

About the only thing I can suggest is to stay positive and keep your options open. Sometimes the best way to look is not to look, if that makes sense. Many people goes through life without finding his or her match so you need to understand that at best it is a long shot. But people don't stop buying lottery tickets either. There is hope even if you only have one ticket, and with luck, you too can hit the jackpot in spite of the steep odds.
Joined: 10/11/2007
Msg: 10
Always the friend, never the Man
Posted: 9/9/2008 10:06:59 PM
You know your profile doesn't match your pictures one bit. Your pictures show a party guy and the profile makes you sound like a man hidden in an obscure religious town that rolls its sidewalks in at night (yes, I am saying this to extremes...sarcasm). You probably should have posted this in profile review instead of pity me nice guy thread.

Do you really expect a woman to get excited or feel sexual attraction to a guy dressed up in a costume and calls himself an idiot? You are in friends zone because you are probably a big time jokester . The jokers entertain, but don't go home with the babes.
Joined: 6/2/2008
Msg: 11
Always the friend, never the Man
Posted: 9/9/2008 10:35:33 PM
Problem is i think that you tell them you are strictly looking for a relationship.Why tell them this at all?. It is a turn off for a woman to hear that.Just don't even mention it in the future and i'm sure your luck will change.Oh and being friends with a woman can be a good thing.Why you ask?.Every woman has other woman friends you know.
Joined: 1/13/2007
Msg: 12
Always the friend, never the Man
Posted: 9/9/2008 10:52:03 PM
*Just for future reference, I have changed my profile to accompany suggestions posted in this thread.*

This is also a reminder that the thread was not started to discuss my profile, but to discuss what I'm doing wrong when I'm around women. Although I was never aware of the theory before, the suggested Ladder Theory seems to explain things very well for me.
Joined: 5/12/2005
Msg: 13
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Always the friend, never the Man
Posted: 9/9/2008 11:28:52 PM
Most women don't want to have a relationship with a guy who has beer drinking in 1/2 his photos. But getting rid of the photos won't change anything.
Joined: 7/16/2008
Msg: 14
Always the friend, never the Man
Posted: 9/10/2008 12:13:35 AM
OP, "I don't know how I project myself, but I usually try to be intimate with them after the first meeting (holding hands, hugs, maybe kisses)."

There's your answer...Unless a woman seems really, really into you on a first date (Leaning in towards you, putting her hands withing your reach) don't even think about holding her hand or kissing her. You just made it sound like a GOAL and that you have to do those things on every single first date. You can't possibly like every single woman you go on a date with enough to hold her hand or kiss her, so it would certainly come off as Horny most of the time, because that's what it sounds like....

Many woman want to move much slower than that, and if they had any attraction to you on the first date, you're going to come off looking horny as hell and not one bit genuine...

And just FYI most women who see a profile that says "Hang out' and then the guy wants to get all touchy on the first date, reads as "Total player"....not saying you are, I'm saying that how it comes across...
Joined: 11/20/2007
Msg: 15
Always the friend, never the Man
Posted: 9/10/2008 12:32:06 AM
There are things you can do to mitigate being placed on the friends ladder.

Like you, i spend a lot of time on that friends ladder, and it sucks when you chased a girl as a romantic interest to land there.

However, looking back at myself, I realize I'm generally to blame in such situations. If you're serious about wanting a relationship with a girl, don't shoot for friendship. Do your own thing, and don't try to be the friend. She's got her own friends to go shopping with, her own friends if she needs a shoulder to lean on.

You can be that for her when you're in a relationship. If you be that for her before that happens, trust that you'll get put in the friend zone.

This means setting boundaries pretty early on. It doesn't mean being an ass, but it does mean standing up for yourself and what you want. If the girl simply isn't in to you in that sense you can then make the conscious choice to either accept her as a friend, or simply move on and forget about her.
Joined: 2/16/2007
Msg: 16
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Always the friend, never the Man
Posted: 9/10/2008 1:44:39 AM
Hey OP send me your email, I tried to message you but you have dudes blocked which makes sense. But I think I can help you out a bit, but can't do it on the forum.
Joined: 10/30/2006
Msg: 17
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Always the friend, never the Man
Posted: 9/10/2008 2:12:10 AM
I can't tell for sure about this from your text, OPie, but you do go on about what you want and telling a woman what you want and what you don't want, etc.

When do you get to the part where you show your genuine interest in her, in her life, her preferences, her wants? A date isn't a waitress. She isn't there at all to deliver what you want. Just as you are there for your reasons, she is there for hers. Knowing your own reasons is easy. Do you know hers? Are they interesting reasons? Attractive reasons?

Do you know that showing interest in a woman is not about trying to get her? That it is about showing interest? If you're doing most of the talking and none of the engaged listening, which is how you seem to describe things, then you certainly come across as interested in no one but yourself.

Here's a quick self test. How many questions do you ask a date about herself and her life that are not yes/no questions? How many questions do you ask her based upon her answers? How often do you find elements of her life in her answers that you can relate to and tell her so?

And how much of what she tells you about herself do you remember the next time you see her?

The closer your answers are to zero, the more self-absorbed you appear. And that's not attractive to anyone.

Just guessing here!

Joined: 8/26/2007
Msg: 18
Always the friend, never the Man
Posted: 9/10/2008 2:33:12 AM
Ever hear of the saying "you are shooting yourself in the foot"?

That is what you are doing. I am not going to go into detail on everything you are doing to shoot yourself in the foot but I will give you a couple of ideas.

1. When you said you are a laid back relaxed guy is an indicator that these women feel relaxed around you and put you in the friends bucket. Sexual tension doesn't grow from relaxation, it comes from emotions, intensity, an unsure feeling and I know this sounds foreign but a little bit of excitement and intrigue. No this doesn't mean you turn into a jerk or an @sshole, it means you need to shoot for a different goal than your own goal of being relaxed.

2. Pay attention to what her body is saying and what yours is saying. I suspect you have no clue that your body language is saying I am clueless and want to be friends as a result. No matter what your words say, your body is overshadowing your words and you don't even know it. Women are super keen to body language and will listen to that over words any day. Work on that a bit.

Lastly I would suggest that you find a much more experienced and accomplished person as a mentor to guide you through this process. In the past it used to be father figures making you "a man" to do this but our society seems to be stripping itself of that resource so you may need to look for another mentor figure to learn from.

Good luck
Joined: 5/26/2008
Msg: 19
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Always the friend, never the Man
Posted: 9/10/2008 3:49:05 AM
OP ... you are still young and have lots of time to find the right one for the long term. In the meantime, making friends is never a bad thing!

I don't know how you come across in person with these women, and can't speak for them. But from your post, it seems to me like you want to be married tomorrow!! If I was a young lady out on a date with you and that's the way you come across, I must say, it would scare me just a bit. Women like to get to know a man on a deeper level before knowing if they even think a realtionship could be possible. And what's wrong with starting out as friends? Don't you want your potential lifemate to be your BEST friend?! I know I do.

Also, as far as the intimacy goes on a first date ... I would be very put off by hand holding, hugs or kisses on the first meeting (unless of course there was a tremendous amount of chemistry on both parts). And even then, I think maybe just a nice goodnight hug and small peck would suffice. Gives something more to look forward to the next time if she's really into you.

And despite what someone else said about all your pics having a beer in hand ... well I think your pics are fine. You are a very handsome young man and I only see two pics that look like party pics. I think it's a great assortment of pics that show different sides of you and they are just fine!! You are still young and have so much time to find the one that is right for you!! Don't get discouraged, keep on fishing till you catch the keeper!!!

Joined: 8/10/2008
Msg: 20
Always the friend, never the Man
Posted: 9/10/2008 3:55:29 AM
You can't force a relationship. If they girls you go out with aren't feeling any chemistry with you, then they aren't feeling it, and trying to change that isn't a good use of anyone's time or energy.

If you keep having this problem, I'd look at how you project yourself. Are you insecure? Do you try to hard to get your dates to like you? Are you exhibiting a lack of confidence?

Also, I'd recommend not taking ladder theory too seriously. It's mostly a lot of bunk, and has absolutely no scientific basis.
Joined: 9/6/2008
Msg: 21
Always the friend, never the Man
Posted: 9/10/2008 4:51:57 AM
Getting caught in the friendzone is serious boner poison.

Try not associating with whores?
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 22
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Always the friend, never the Man
Posted: 9/10/2008 5:58:13 AM

I don't know how I project myself, but I usually try to be intimate with them after the first meeting (holding hands, hugs, maybe kisses). I always tell them I'm NOT interested in making friends, I'm strictly looking for a relationship. Maybe they just don't get the message.
Maybe you aren't getting the message. If you mean what you say, that you are STRICTLY looking for a relationship, then why are you trying it on with them at the first meeting? Why aren't you trying to get to know them? How do you know they aren't a crack whore? You cannot tell just by looking at them. So maybe you need to SLOW IT DOWN, MAN!

If you are already meeting a woman, she is GIVING YOU THE CHANCE TO GET TO KNOW HER, AND HER TO KNOW YOU! So use it.

Probably, that fact that you try and be intimate with her right away makes her feel, like some of my friends said, that you are an octopus. It puts them off.

Women WANT you to put your hands all over them, ONCE THEY LIKE YOU, and for women, that is as little as an hour. But when they want you to, THEY WILL TELL YOU! They will let you know, and in no uncertain terms.

So be interested in them, get to know them, and only paw them once they let you know they want you to. Then, they'll want to paw them all night long! :wink:

Edit: If you do this, and they STILL just want to be friends, then BE A MAN, AND MEAN WHAT YOU SAY! You say that you're NOT interested in making friends, and you're strictly looking for a relationship? Then act like it! When she says that she just wants to be friends, thank her kindly, say that you enjoyed her company, but that you have enough friends, and good night, but that you'll get the bill. Then immediately go over to the waitress and use asking for the bill as an excuse to chat her and all the other waitresses up. At the very least, it will teach your date not to say to be friends until she is prepared to end the date, as that is the end of dating between the two of you. It will also teach you to get your head in gear, and just get on with dating, and not worrying about dating.

Your body has enough energy to worry for 1 hour, or to work for 12. Your choice. I suggest that you spend 12 hours dating women, instead of one hour worrying about it. That way, you'll have 12 dates, and one will work out. Even if not now, then 12 such hours in 12 days is 144 women, and I doubt that any man has dated 144 women without at least ONE turning into a possible relationship.
Joined: 6/1/2008
Msg: 23
Always the friend, never the Man
Posted: 9/10/2008 6:00:52 AM
That seems so odd to me
Sure there have been women that used the term lets be friends before

But to have never for years been successfull in getting in the Door

would bring to mind some serious confidence issues.

an old rule of thumb, masturbate before going on a date

you wont seem so desperate, and no its not from the movie
something about Mary.......learned that back in the 70's
Joined: 2/13/2007
Msg: 24
Always the friend, never the Man
Posted: 9/10/2008 7:20:44 AM
Red flags:
no matter how similar we are in opinions or views...
they keep contact with me or I with them..
I don't know how to project myself
I try to be intimate after the first meeting
Talks afterwards

Unfortunately you are just a nice guy that moves too fast and then accepts becoming just friends. What it tells me is that you spend all your time trying to prove to these woman what a great guy you are. And this is wrong. When you try to validate yourself to a woman, they lose interest.

Take for instance your statement "no matter how similar we are in opinions or views" this tells me that you try too hard to agree with them, appear to think alike and so on. Don't. Here's an exercise, with the next woman you are with. Disagree with, don't be mean or anything like that, but if she tells you how much she likes this movie, tease her about just liking melodramatic chic flicks. Keep her a little confused, not able to completely figure you out. What that also involves is that when it's time to get intimate, you push too hard.

The good news is that you're young. You just need to learn a bit more about social dynamics and don't listen to anybody who tells you to just be yourself. That is like going to college and somebody instead of telling you what to read, what to learn, what to practice, they tell you, just be yourself.

So, learn. Don't give up. And realize that there are women out there that will want you even more than you want them. And that all the stories these women tell you about the other guys that broke their hearts, well, that could be you.
Joined: 9/4/2008
Msg: 25
Always the friend, never the Man
Posted: 9/10/2008 7:49:10 AM
It's you. You, unfortunately, did exactly what many women do when hearing men comment on things like this. You went the wrong way of a one-way street. His issue is not as you stated. He's rightfully annoyed by women (in this particular case) that pull the line, long enough to keep the fish from getting away.
See, some of us men (who show that we have hearts) regard "potenial" as POTENT. We can be friends, as well as make friends. But, some women have a tendency to "fear" a "potentially" good situation. Their fear becomes, "this is too good to be true!"


Then comes the let's be friends line. Women's so-called "saving grace"...which should be listed under "fear of the unknown".

It bugs me people in general miss the point entirely, and try to compensate with non-applicables. I'm sure that asking, (like women want us to do of them) he would've clarified.
Show ALL Forums  > Dating and Love Advice  > Always the friend, never the Man