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Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > Scientists Rather create death then life ???      Home login  
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 JHVM
Joined: 6/6/2007
Msg: 2
Scientists Rather create death then life ???Page 1 of 4    (1, 2, 3, 4)
SOME engineers work on weapons that kill.

Scientists work on concepts that may be used for weapons but just as often have practical non-agressive applications.
 forallintents
Joined: 12/16/2008
Msg: 4
Scientists Rather create death then life ???
Posted: 12/22/2008 11:12:20 AM
Scientists tend to be amoral when it comes to their work. They handle any misgivings about the possible future applications for their discoveries by handing off responsibility to others. Engineers who invent weapons do so because they believe weapons are necessary to protect their freedoms or way of life. Only a small minority of professionals actually intend to help create mass mayhem. Most believe they are working towards some better world, no matter the facts proving otherwise. The work is done within a culture of rationalization that serves to absolve any one individual of guilt, and masks the intent of those few whose aim is indeed evil. You're free to set up a program for scientists to earn a decent living working on projects that promote life. All of the tools of capitalism are at your fingertips should you decide it's a worthwhile undertaking.
 ThatGirlWithTheGlasses
Joined: 12/13/2008
Msg: 5
Scientists Rather create death then life ???
Posted: 12/22/2008 11:19:11 AM

Do you really believe war is a path for peace ? i disagree with you 1000%.


Well, except for ending Nazism, Imperialism, Fascism and, Totalitarianism...

War never solved anything.
 Jiperly
Joined: 8/30/2006
Msg: 6
Scientists Rather create death then life ???
Posted: 12/22/2008 11:20:40 AM
To be fair, I don't see alot of research being done on weapons, least of all revolutionary ones.

The main purpose behind building better weapons isn't because they want people to die- its because they want the cops or the troops to live- so they give them an advantage over the enemy.

>>> War has never been the answer and never will....

There are many, many different ways to live a society- and since the invention of weapons, people have the need to protect their beliefs, their culture, and their idealiogies. Giving you an advantage over your enemies on weapons both saves your soldiers lives and makes the enemies think twice about attacking you to force you to change your idealogy.

>>>We are technology advanced enough to live in a world without money ....

Thats completely irrelivant to the topic- but what should replace money?

I strongly believe that money is the exchange of goods and services on a voluntary basis- that there is no evil in money, but in the ambitions of man who sees money as a means of control. Remove money from sitution, and you will not remove evil from the world- you will simply replace the means to exchange goods and services from a voluntary basis based on a system that acts as a promise of value, to whips, blood, and death.
 ThatGirlWithTheGlasses
Joined: 12/13/2008
Msg: 7
Scientists Rather create death then life ???
Posted: 12/22/2008 11:21:31 AM

We are technology advanced enough to live in a world without money ....


Living in a world without money is, honestly, like living in a world without war.

Do you imagine what would happen if our currency just vanished over night. It's the same with war.
 ThatGirlWithTheGlasses
Joined: 12/13/2008
Msg: 10
Scientists Rather create death then life ???
Posted: 12/22/2008 12:07:26 PM
Sounds like your issue is with money and not necessarily war. As long as there are people, there will always be war. To ignore this is very naive.

And I wouldn't say majority of the crimes committed today are influenced by the lack of money. You're only covering one crime, which is robbery. You're forgetting rape, murder, and other crimes which aren't currency influenced. Money isn't the problem. Is when people start to take advantage of the loopholes in a society in a quest to gain money, no matter who's lives get destroyed. It's called greed.
 Jiperly
Joined: 8/30/2006
Msg: 11
Scientists Rather create death then life ???
Posted: 12/22/2008 12:24:16 PM
>>>all the crime we have today is mainly due to money ? right or wrong ?

Wrong. The removal of money will not end crime- If I couldn't trade a stolen TV for money, I could barter it just as well. Hell, the most horrible of crimes- rape, assault, murder- these have nothing to do with money at all....

>>>why would one country want to take over another ?

To enforce an idealogy, a belief, or a religion.
 quietcowboy
Joined: 12/25/2007
Msg: 12
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History
Scientists Rather create death then life ???
Posted: 12/22/2008 12:29:23 PM

Well think about this...all the crime we have today is mainly due to money ? right or wrong ?


Wrong, its due to criminals and we've had criminals long before we had money.
 Concertina
Joined: 8/11/2006
Msg: 14
Scientists Rather create death then life ???
Posted: 12/22/2008 1:00:27 PM

all the crime we have today is mainly due to money ? right or wrong ?


What does rape have to do with money?
What does slashing someone's tires have to do with money?
You're delusional.

Crime is brought on by ignorance and hate.
 Jiperly
Joined: 8/30/2006
Msg: 15
Scientists Rather create death then life ???
Posted: 12/22/2008 1:01:18 PM
>>>I mean if society was engineer in a way where money was no longer needed.

Care to elaborate? How would that work without turning into a socialist state or dictatorship?

>>> just there has to be a way for scientists to come up with a way it can be done.

They are working on it- but throwing down our guns and refusing to keep up with our enemies advances will only ensure our own enslavement.
 forallintents
Joined: 12/16/2008
Msg: 16
Scientists Rather create death then life ???
Posted: 12/22/2008 1:02:09 PM
We don't view the death machines as such, we view them as machines to protect ourselves from death. It's because as mortals we can be killed and we prefer not to be. Once you solve the problem of mortals being mortal, you will have obviated the need to protect ourselves and then we would no longer create machines that can be used to kill others who might kill us if we did not have adequate defenses. It's not like some ignorant policy maker dreamed up society to be unnecessarily violent on a whim. Technology gets invented to solve problems. The problem that death machines were meant to solve is the problem of getting killed by less sophisticated death machines. This development can be traced back to a rock making for a better weapon than a palm frond did.

The challenge for anyone who seeks to make war obsolete is to establish another means by which conflict can be resolved, for one thing, and secondly, to somehow magically make people invincible so that an army could do no harm.

I disagree that war is a fact of life that can never be changed. I think the main hurdle to peace is that war still serves a purpose for which no other means has yet been invented.
 quietcowboy
Joined: 12/25/2007
Msg: 17
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Scientists Rather create death then life ???
Posted: 12/22/2008 1:03:22 PM
The American Indians had criminals that did nearly every sort of crime that criminals in our society commit, and they didn't have money. Your logic is always lacking.
 quietcowboy
Joined: 12/25/2007
Msg: 18
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History
Scientists Rather create death then life ???
Posted: 12/22/2008 1:12:36 PM
And most animals will commit what we consider a crime anytime the situation presents its self and they think the can get away with it. Being civilized means living with in what ever the current rules of a society sets. Criminals pick and choose which rules they obey and when they obey them.
 fortran
Joined: 2/21/2004
Msg: 19
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Scientists Rather create death then life ???
Posted: 12/22/2008 1:54:57 PM
Money is a counter for value, and people will steal things of value, just so that this thing can be sold to "legitimately" acquire things of value that they do need (but lacked the value to purchase, or didn't want to use the value they had already acquired, however it was acquired).

Some wars are started for resources, especially access to fresh water. Another popular reason has been religious.

Some of science comes from explorations into mathematics, physics, chemistry or biology. It is really hard to say that some new method to solve some particular kind of equation only can result in war, or mostly results in war. Similar statements can be made for most other advances in science. Even us engineers usually don't pursue applications with the idea of killing people. Engineering is supposed to be the safe application of science for the benefit of society.
 Vancer
Joined: 10/29/2006
Msg: 21
Scientists Rather create death then life ???
Posted: 12/22/2008 4:54:58 PM
So long as dependencies are allowed to dismiss diplomacy, thou shalt do war.
Ideologies, resources, living space, whatever...so long as we become so dependent on something, that adversely affects others, we better be getting ready for some eventual butting of heads. Democracy often leads to the majority wishing their nation to become more independent.
I can't think of any 2 democratic nations who've warred with one another. I have no idea.
Social scientists are probably the folks who'll focus more on avoiding wars.
 shmodzilla
Joined: 10/6/2008
Msg: 23
Scientists Rather create death then life ???
Posted: 12/22/2008 5:11:29 PM
Out of all the wars i am thinking of i can't seem to think of one fought over money. Religion and politics maybe. Yea sure it would be nice if we spent money on good things instead of wars but most people can't even save a few bucks instead of going out to party can they?
My only post here since i know this will be a sensless battle.
 kenpoboy
Joined: 9/22/2008
Msg: 24
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Scientists Rather create death then life ???
Posted: 12/22/2008 5:31:27 PM
OP -

WTF are you on about. The vast majority of scientists do benign research. Behaviors, medicines, improved farming, power, environmental research, etc........the list goes on and on.

Come on man.
 yna6
Joined: 1/21/2007
Msg: 26
Scientists Rather create death then life ???
Posted: 12/22/2008 6:52:20 PM
Thatgirl seems to be on the right track. (Also, impressive profile girl...) anyways, A lot of scientists work onthings that have more than military applications. It is simply that the military has the money to allow these scientists to do their work. Civilian applications come afterwards.
Don't forget, war is an extension of politics, and as personal as a punch in the nose. The generals are told where to hit, how much pressure to apply, and when to quit, by the politicians WE vote into office. Otherwise there never would have been a Gulf2...it would have been finished the first time around!
We needed something better than a barter system. Money was a good subtitute. Unfortunately, we allowed the gov't to remove "hard currency" form us...BIG mistake on our part. Now we have paper and plastic, rather than silver and gold and copper. Paper was ok, IF it was backed by valuable metals. It used to be, but no longer is. YOu used to be able to trade paper for gold at the bank, or silver. Can't do that now though.
anyhow's, many scientists DO work towards the betterment of future living. Not so much for mankind, but for the comapnies they work for. They want to turn a profit, the best way is to introduce new products, etcand charge for them!
 James Bottomtooth III
Joined: 5/19/2008
Msg: 27
Scientists Rather create death then life ???
Posted: 12/22/2008 7:47:20 PM
..."A self-destructive man feels completely alienated, utterly alone. He's an outsider to the human community. He thinks to himself, "I must be insane." What he fails to realize is that society has, just as he does, a vested interest in considerable losses and catastrophes. These wars, famines, floods and quakes meet well-defined needs. Man wants chaos. In fact, he's gotta have it. Depression, strife, riots, murder, all this dread. We're irresistibly drawn to that almost orgiastic state created out of death and destruction. It's in all of us. We revel in i."...

J.C. Shakespeare.
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 28
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Scientists Rather create death then life ???
Posted: 12/22/2008 11:14:29 PM

why do they work on weapons that kill?

Because there are lots of people willing to do anything to have them.
Those people will pay the market rate for such research and development, if they can get people to make such weapons.
If they can't, then they'll pay well above the market rate.
If they still cannot get people, they'll head-hunt scientists.
If they still cannot get people, they will spend a lot of money paying people to develop lots of arguments to convince people to make them weapons.
If they still cannot get people, they will pay uneducated people to learn how to make them.
If they still cannot get people, they will threaten people with their lives, to get them to make them.
If they still cannot get people, they will threaten people with their families' lives, to get them to make them.
If they still cannot get people, they will torture people, until they make them.
In short, they'll do everything they can to make weapons.

Why? Because if you have better weapons than everyone else, then you can threaten everyone else that they have to do what you want, or you'll use those weapons on them. So if you need lots of money to get more or better weapons made, then you can use those weapons you have now, to threaten lots of people to give you money.

As long as there are people who will do anything to have those weapons made, and there are people in the world, SOME of those people will be willing to make those weapons.

So really....would it not make sense to create a self sustaining abundant world.....instead of ways of killing or destruction ?
Sure, but we'd have to convince everyone to abandon having those weapons made, to gain unfair advantage over others, so that they can get anything they want, simply by threatening others. We haven't figured out how to do that yet.

Maybe scientists can figure out how to do that. Might be more useful than lots of other forms of research. After all, probably more people in African die in wars, than who die of disease and famine put together.
 Irespire
Joined: 7/30/2008
Msg: 29
Scientists Rather create death then life ???
Posted: 12/22/2008 11:15:50 PM
peace sells, but whose buyin
 chrono1985
Joined: 11/20/2004
Msg: 30
Scientists Rather create death then life ???
Posted: 12/23/2008 6:37:11 AM
I'm going to take the second part of the title literally for this post.

If scientist were to create life, actually create a living being. How do you think people would react when they are already having problems with scientist developing means to prevent death (medicine, surgery, artificial tissue). The vast majority of people view growing organs in a lab to implant into someone immoral in a large survey taken recently, but are perfectly fine with the idea of cutting the same organs out of someone else to have implanted. What does that tell you about people? It's a growing fad to reject medication, like having an arm dislocated some hospitals offer the option of pain killers, but in most case the folk either reject the pain killers or accept them and give/sell them away.

Sure we have the technology and resources to make a world where money isn't required and yet everything is fair, but the problem is that we don't have the technology to change the way people think to fit into such a world, or the collective will to teach people how to fit into a place where everything they need is provided everything they want is shared and not to be hoarded.
 Jiperly
Joined: 8/30/2006
Msg: 33
Scientists Rather create death then life ???
Posted: 12/23/2008 9:33:33 AM
Its Ayn Rand, thorb. And theres an esspeially good rant in it about how money is the root of all good;

http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=1826
 Ahoytheredave
Joined: 8/29/2006
Msg: 34
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Scientists Rather create death then life ???
Posted: 12/23/2008 9:33:35 AM
The "natural" development of higher animals is to select the fittest. The result in human society is levels of leadership based in who can have the toughest army etc. Sometimes, that army is "empowered" by strong religious beliefs, social biases, and/or wealth. Conflicts naturally occure and in humans, that means war. It's not about crime although all kinds of crime result from the prosecution of war.

Money is an invention designed to enable easier trade. Trade generally makes war too costly to prosecute and therefore is a deterrant to war between trading partners. Sometimes the ambition of a leader or society conflicts with another and trade is disrupted either involving the ambitious party or not. This often leads to attack by the ambitious party or the trading partners against the ambitious party. In this model, one can consider religious beliefs and/or practice much like money. Money makes some crime easier but doesn't cause it.

Early in my career, I turned down money to work on nuclear weapons. I considered that a weapon of war I would never want to see used. Scientists and engineers work for pay just like any oyther profession. We have our biases as well. Its politicians who guide the morals of a country. Most of the politicians in the west are lawyers by profession. Unlike most other professions, theirs depends on setting aside moral judgement for their paying clients. Why don't you blame the poltician-lawyers who shun morality and get us into wars instead of the scientists and engineers who try to end them in our favor?
 forallintents
Joined: 12/16/2008
Msg: 35
Scientists Rather create death then life ???
Posted: 12/23/2008 9:35:35 AM
Money is numbers. The numbers represent property. Property is a social contract to grant an individual exclusive rights of use. To change from an economy based on money would require changing the social contract of exclusive use. That contract arose so that people could make plans and get things done without endlessly negotiating who gets to use what how and where.

Consider a piece of land. How will it be used, by whom, for what purpose? If land is not owned in some way, which is to say its use is not controlled, then you have the basic problem of any two or more people wanting to use that land for different purposes at the same time. That is a case of conflict. War grew out of that basic conflict. Contracts and laws and property ownership and then money all grew from the need to resolve conflicts that are built into the basic facts of their being more than one person and different people wanting different things.

It's easy to dream of a world without conflict but then explain how you would handle a situation where what someone else wanted would prevent you from having what you wanted. Because conflict is unavoidable there must be some way to resolve conflicts. The ways that have been tried have led to the ways we have now, including property ownership, money, and war. You can invent a better means of resolving conflict if you like. Nobody is stopping you. But if other people do not agree it is a better way then you will have to choose between giving up the idea or finding some way to persuade them to accept it. If push comes to shove you're right back exactly where you started from: pushing and shoving (war).

Science can probably eventually formulate knowledge sufficient to convince an effective majority of the benefits of some better approach to conflict resolution. What that would look like I have no idea.
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