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 pantsonfire
Joined: 7/19/2006
Msg: 5
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Gaza MassacrePage 1 of 11    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11)
I agree the Jews were persecuted as a religious group but as for being the most persecuted nation hmmm.. I have my doubts... They seem to have taken this broken nation misnomer and run with it..They use it as reason and excuse for every atrocity they perpetrate...

Israel is not the poor put upon nation they make themselves out to be.. They have consistently used and abused the unquestioning support they have received from the US.. They are far more often guilty of being the aggressors than we in the west can imagine.. Yes Palestinian terrorists are rife and they do cause untold damage to the attempts to any cease fires but Israel's retaliatory attacks are way out of proportion and do nothing to reassure the Palestinians that they will be treated fairly should a peace treaty be brokered..

Look at the death tolls ..

Total Number of Palestinian deaths] : 4209

Children: 892
Women : 273
Men : 3044

[Total Number Israeli deaths]: 1556

Children : 113
Women : 305
Men : 603

Figures up til 2006..


These figures are of course approximate and are not totally reliable as source is probably biased but I cannot find anywhere that the Israeli death toll amounts to even half that of the Palestinians..


Israel needs to be held accountable for its over zealous responses to Palestinian terrorist activities and should perhaps target specific groups rather than laying waste to large swathes of civilian populations, claiming they are Hamas strongholds..

Two wrongs do not make a right but until Palestinians stop blowing themselves up in Israeli markets, Israel will continue to annihilate Palestinians with extreme prejudice...

Funny how a nation that grew from a persecuted religion that was subjected to such horrors as the holocaust can justify genocide when they are not the victims..



vv Ok maybe it is a little strong but they are teetering on the brink...

 restless_native
Joined: 12/17/2006
Msg: 7
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Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/5/2009 6:38:39 AM

while no fewer than 6,000 rockets and other missiles rained down from Gaza upon its southern towns.


You have to consider why the Palestinians are doing this. Nearly 2 million people blockaded into a small strip of land with the flow of goods severely restricted by Israel.

Also consider this hypothetical situation. If a foreign power decided to invade the UK and force all of the existing population to move onto Anglesey saying that the land was their's by right because their God who you don't happen to believe in gave it to them and then the rest of the World backed up their claim how would you feel? Would you fight using whatever limited means you may have in order to get back your homeland?


Unfortunately Israel seems to be the most persecuted Nation in the modern world.


I disagree with that. The Jewish people have suffered their fair share of oppression admittedly. But, the state of Israel seems to be the global equivalent of an abused child who grows up to abuse others. If there is any group of people who know how wrong it is to oppress others you'd think it would be the Jews.

This is a very complex issue and one to which I don't think there is a simple answer. However, I believe that an immediate ceasefire should be implemented as has been demanded by European leaders to avoid further loss of civilian life and a humanitarian disaster.
 pantsonfire
Joined: 7/19/2006
Msg: 14
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Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/5/2009 7:47:04 AM
I am sure that Hamas and the Palestinian people see it more as reinstating the lands to their original state.. Israel is an invented country, it was created from lands forcibly taken from innocent Palestinian farmers who had worked the land for millenia ..

To them this is not genocide, this is reclaiming lands that are their own... As someone pointed out earlier in this thread, how would we feel if we were suddenly told that actually we couldn't live in these lands any more and we had to move to one small corner and survive on whatever the occupying nation decided we could have?

You cannot wipe out a nation that never really existed except on political documentation .. Would America have been so supportive if Jerusalem had been on their shores? I doubt it..

Why did the Jewish people deserve a nation? Was it as compensation for the Holocaust? Maybe Germany would have been a better place for Israel then?

Nobody can expect a nation to allow another to take their lands and not feel some hatred towards the occupying forces.. We are still apologising for the occupations of other countries by our forefathers.. Will Israel hand Palestine back in centuries to come?

American Indians lost their lands and we know we were wrong to take them away..
Native Australians also lost their lands, again we admit we were wrong..
Apartheid, where a whole nation were made into second class citizens, we were wrong..
Russia's occupation of Georgia? Condemned ...

Why is Israel right when they have done the exact same thing? Why aren't they subject to the same laws as other occupying forces?

It's as though, because of the horrors their forbears suffered, they are deemed unpunishable and untouchable.. No matter what they choose to do..
 restless_native
Joined: 12/17/2006
Msg: 19
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Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/5/2009 8:16:25 AM

Put it this way. If a little bloke goes into a bar and taunts and nips at a big bloke and the big bloke gets fed up and beats the hell out of the little bloke, then people would say he probably brought it on himself and have little sympathy.


True. But what if the big bloke had moved into the little blokes house and forced the little bloke to live in the shed? Some would probably say they'd sympathise with the little bloke when out of desperation he hurled a few bricks at the big bloke from a distance knowing that he wasn't strong enough to take him on in a fair fight.
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/5/2009 8:24:39 AM
When the state of Israel was created and handed to the Jews, no one wanted the land, it was unproductive and deemed unfertile. The Jews have made it fertile and incredibly productive.. so the Palestinians want it back.... ?????
 restless_native
Joined: 12/17/2006
Msg: 22
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Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/5/2009 8:29:35 AM

The Jews have made it fertile and incredibly productive.. so the Palestinians want it back.... ?????


That statement implies that the Palestinians only decided that they wanted the land back after Israel had developed it. Which to be fair isn't the case. They've wanted it back ever since it was taken. In fact they didn't want to lose it at all in the first place.

Which makes another thought occur to me. God must really have hated the Jews if their promised land was such a sh1thole.
 pantsonfire
Joined: 7/19/2006
Msg: 24
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Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/5/2009 8:43:21 AM
So what about the 6 day war? Was that all about poor little Israel being bullied too? Or was it Israel being greedy anagonists and occupying large tracts of land belonging to Syria, Egypt and Jordan? Sounds more like the little bloke having the house, then wanting the shed, car, wife, kids and pet cat!!

They were given land yes.. The Palestinians agreed to the giving of that land but the Israelis wanted more and more and more .. The West Bank was not part of the initial agreement .. Nor was Sinai or the Gaza strip ... This i believe is the crux of the problem... Relations were strained enough when the poorest Palestinians had their lands taken from them by their government as consession to greater powers, then Israel decided that wasn't enough and it wanted even more..




The 6 day war was the most dramatic of all wars fought between Israel and the Arab nations, resulting in a depression in the Arab world lasting many years, changing the mentalities and political orientations among the people, as well as resulting in increased tensions between the Arab countries and the Western world. While the actual material and human losses were dramatic enough, Arab weakness in this war compared to Israeli efficiency will probably not be forgot for still many decades to come.
The war left Israel with the largest territorial gains from any of the wars the country had been involved in: Sinai and Gaza Strip were captured from Egypt, East Jerusalem and West Bank from Jordan and Golan Heights from Syria.
For the international society the war resulted in a closure of the Suez Canal for 8 years, resulting in increase of freight prices in international trade.
The war would be followed by the War of Attrition (1968-1970).



Those ^^ are not the actions of an oppressed and bullied nation...

I can understand Palestinians being mildly pissed off at this constant wanting and taking more and more..
 restless_native
Joined: 12/17/2006
Msg: 29
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Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/5/2009 10:00:36 AM
the thing about terrorists is they will not fight a convetional war they are cowards who fire and flee usually into schools so that or hospitals so there attackers are unable to retaliate.


How exactly would Hamas fight a conventional war against Israel? They simply don't have the resources. If they had the arsenal at their disposal that Israel does they wouldn't need to adopt the tactics that they have so far.

Whichever way you look at it, this is hardly a fair fight.

It's wrong for Hamas to continue rocket attacks against civilian targets over the border. But, is the current action of Israel actually going to improve stability in the area in the long term or make matters worse by further increasing friction? I certainly can't see it all ending peacefully.

The only solution I can see to the current situation is for the UN to be sent in to effectively monitor a ceasefire. The first step has to be to stop the bloodshed on both sides. Then the process of actually finding a long term solution can begin.
 restless_native
Joined: 12/17/2006
Msg: 56
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Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/5/2009 3:44:43 PM
hamas are pretty much like the i.r.a.


That's quite a useful parallel to draw in this situation. Remember all the years that the British government spent saying that would never deal with people who they perceived to be terrorists? However, in the end it wasn't military action that brought an end to the violence it was diplomacy.

The situation between Israel and Palestine is never going to be resolved with a clear victory for either side. The only way a long term peaceful solution will be found will be after compromises are made by both sides with neither having to lose face by actually having to concede defeat.
 restless_native
Joined: 12/17/2006
Msg: 64
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Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/6/2009 6:42:49 AM
I re-iterate what I said and will stand by it.....ISRAEL, BOMB THESE FCUKERS UNTIL THEY CANT RESPOND NO MORE


Try saying it a third time. You never know. You might get lucky and find someone gullible enough to bite.
 pantsonfire
Joined: 7/19/2006
Msg: 73
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Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/6/2009 9:55:17 AM
^^ Yes I agree the state of Israel has a right to exist.. It was agreed to hand over the lands to the Jewish settlers and that would be that..

Then the wars started, who was the aggressor and who was the victim is debatable and subject to bias but suffice to say Israel more than doubled it's land mass during the 6 day war .. These lands were not given, they were occupied and forcibly taken from Jordan, Egypt and Syria .. Do they have the right to these lands? Or should they be returned to the original countries they belonged to? (Their occupancies and productiveness are moot points, there are large tracts of Scotland that are completely unused, it does not mean they are available to whomever fancies a bit of it for themselves..)


1967 May: Forces on both Arab and Israeli sides of the borders are mobilized.
June 5: Israel attacks Egypt, Syria and Jordan. Israel achieved great victories immediately, especially on the Egyptian front, where Egyptian air crafts are wiped out after effective bombing of air strips.
June 7: The strategically important Egyptian Sharm el-Sheikh is captured.
— Jordan surrenders to Israel, after having lost East Jerusalem and the West Bank.
June 8: The entire Sinai comes under Israeli control. Later that evening, Israeli fights on the Egyptian front cease.
June 10: Syria surrenders, after seeing Golan Heights come under Israeli control.


These lands were not given to Israel as a multi country political agreement, they were forcibly taken ... If Israel is happy to attack other countries and steal lands from them, then they have no right to squeal when they are attacked... Israel is not protecting the lands it was given, they are protecting the lands they stole during the 6 day war... i.e The Gaza ...

I really do not know who is more in the wrong here, both sides are guilty of gross stupidities ... All I do know is that this current situation has the potential to escalate into to something really bloody scary, for all of us!!
 pantsonfire
Joined: 7/19/2006
Msg: 76
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Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/6/2009 11:06:09 AM
ZG I've been trying to find a fair and unbiased reportage of the historical problems suffered and caused by Israel.. Would love to be directed towards somewhere I can be properly educated on this ...
 Steve_Sandy
Joined: 3/19/2006
Msg: 82
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Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/6/2009 11:48:09 AM
lots of rockets being fired into israel from gaza, what is israel supposed to do, let it's people die or wait until the extend the range and hit the nuke plant ?

seems hamas have been using ambulances to move troops, mosques and houses to store ammo and people get upset when they get targeted and blown up...

can't see israel giving up and leaving the area, where would they all goto ?

suspect will see a few more weeks of palestinians being killed whilst the building around the borders are flattened, the french president had it right when he blamed hamas for most of the troubles

given up on religion, bit like willy waving - my god is better than your god pap....
 dub08
Joined: 4/28/2007
Msg: 93
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/6/2009 12:19:46 PM
Dont really intend to get into this debate - I dont know enough about the history of it etc however on a point - a lot of Arab countries still dont recognise Israel. I spent over 10 years in the Middle East and:

You can't visit Israel from most Arab countries - you have to go into another country and then get a separate flight. You can't telephone Israel from most Arab countries - dialling code is blocked. You can't enter most Arab countries if you have a stamp from Israel in your passport - which is reason why a lot of business men living in the middle east (expats) have 2 passports and finally if you buy a globe or map in most Arab countries you will find Israel marked out with black pen!

Just for info!
 dub08
Joined: 4/28/2007
Msg: 95
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/6/2009 12:27:14 PM
And Bahrain and Saudi - so that would be 4 out of 6 that dont recognise Israel - I would say that was most!
 itechman63
Joined: 7/7/2005
Msg: 99
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Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/6/2009 1:37:19 PM
Don't you think though that should Hamas and other militant groups did not launch rockets daily into southern Israel and rhetoric of pushing Israel into the sea were not so routine that at some point the Palestinians would have some leverage globally when Israel is not seen as defending itself? A "help us to help you" scenario?

I feel so badly for Gazans but I wish they would look at Hamas and tell them that they are not helping the cause and lives of the common Palestinian. I agree that some accountability for the sad deaths of innocent Palestinians do lie with the rocket launchers.
 restless_native
Joined: 12/17/2006
Msg: 110
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Posted: 1/6/2009 4:32:45 PM
The irony is that this thread has turned into a perfect example of why the problems in Gaza are so difficult to resolve. If people who actually have no real vested interest in the issues can argue so passionately about who is right and who is wrong it's hardly surprising that those who actually have lost family members in this conflict aren't willing to compromise to find a peaceful solution.
 stevencl
Joined: 6/19/2004
Msg: 115
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Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/6/2009 6:37:49 PM
i've been reading all the posts and thinking, why should we really care about who started it and what one country is doing whilst the other is doing something else. Do we not have enough problems on this island to contend with? Just a historical thought though - substitute Israel with England, and substitute Palestine with Scotland, Wales, Ireland, most of africa, north america, the Indian sub-continent parts of the far east and parts of the middle east. Now most of these countries fought back and took what was rightfully theirs and I don't hear anybody taking sides over this. What if Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland decided to take up arms to become independent nations and take back all that was taken from them by the English? would the same people on this forum say that the Scots et al. are terrorists and not have the right to do so?
Just food for thought
 restless_native
Joined: 12/17/2006
Msg: 119
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Posted: 1/7/2009 3:51:53 AM
Israel have taken a sledgehammer to crack a walnut. The only problem is that they seem to be having difficulty in actually finding the walnut so while they've got the sledgehammer out they may as well tw@t everything else in sight.

I think that's it in a nutshell.
 restless_native
Joined: 12/17/2006
Msg: 123
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Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/7/2009 4:39:28 AM

Terrorists never hide in schools or mosques do they


Yes they do. Which really is the problem. If terrorists hide inside a school and use the children as shields that's wrong. However, bombing the school and killing everyone inside in order to kill the terrorists is also wrong.

These actions simply demonstrate that neither side has any regard for the safety of the civilian population if that gets in the way of their own political agendas. That's why international intervention is urgently needed to put a stop to it.
 restless_native
Joined: 12/17/2006
Msg: 138
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Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/7/2009 4:03:06 PM

Also as far as Thandor knows ,no Zionist ,let alone Isralie or indeed Jew has tied bombs to their body , ran into a crowded market place and blown themselves up.


Thandor isn't wrong. However, this in itself tells you something about the nature of the conflict. If you were the commander of an army would you rather sit in an air conditioned bunker directing missiles to their target or spend your time brainwashing some fvckwit into wanting to spread their body parts over a 500 yard radius?
 Tah,
Joined: 11/18/2008
Msg: 172
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/8/2009 7:45:44 PM
Who do you think is responsible for such atrocities being committed in Gaza

a week or so before the attacks the UN human rights officer in Palestine was very roughly ejected by the Isreali's, the media is banned from gaza and thus we have no idependant eyes viewing whats happening, what is in their and has reported the attrocities are now getting hit themselves along with the civilians.
their is no doubt in any sensible human beings mind what is and has been happening, everything we hear from the Isreali's and the Americans and the media in my country is irrational, unrealistic and i describe as sick.
If what is happening in these vids im posting a link to was happening to me in my country i couldnt sit back and allow nor can i take the agressors in these vids word for anything they have to say.
These vids clearly show whats being done to palestinians being done as what was done to german citizens in the 1930's.

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=2LrkhN6Pcto

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=aHigx-owFLQ
 pantsonfire
Joined: 7/19/2006
Msg: 174
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Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/9/2009 1:40:49 AM

Israeli forces shelled a house in the Gaza Strip which they had moved around 110 Palestinians into 24 hours earlier, the UN quotes witnesses as saying.

The UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) called it "one of the gravest incidents" since the beginning of the offensive.

The shelling at Zeitoun, a south-east suburb of Gaza City, on 5 January killed some 30 people, the report said.

Israel said the allegations were being investigated.

"According to several testimonies, on 4 January Israeli foot soldiers evacuated approximately 110 Palestinians into a single-residence house in Zeitoun (half of whom were children) warning them to stay indoors," the OCHA report said.

"Twenty-four hours later, Israeli forces shelled the home repeatedly, killing approximately 30."

The UN said those who survived and were able walked 2km to the main north-south road to be transported to hospital in civilian vehicles.

"Three children, the youngest of whom was five months old, died upon arrival at the hospital," the report said.

An estimated 770 Palestinians and 14 Israelies have died in nearly two weeks of Israel's air and ground offensive against the Palestinian militant group Hamas.




Accidental? Collateral damage? Or purposeful targeting of innocent civilians?
 Tah,
Joined: 11/18/2008
Msg: 177
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/9/2009 5:08:30 AM
Politicians need to hear from the public that it is in the best interests of Americans, British, Israelis, and Palestinians for Israel to accept a ceasefire, end the blockade, and achieve peace through an end to Israel's 40-year old occupation of the Palestinian Territories.

no isreal need to give palestine their land back that the isreali's/usa took off them by military means and generaly disregarding UN directives the same as the two French resustance's only stopped when no German soldier controlled any of France in 45.
But Isreal wont do that because they have housed thousands of citizens in them military occupied palestinian land and these people would have nowhere to live. these people were told like Jewish persons the world over finanly they had thier own state,thier own automy in control of thier own security and a place for all jewish people(automatic immergration acceptance if your jewish to isreal) and if they suddenly found themselves crammed in like sardines with much less farming land if they were inside thier true borders everything jews the world over were told would be found a lie so everything you see from isreal is an eloborate lie to hide the very lie i just explained and the sad fact is the same genocide just without the gas chambers is happening to palestinians and has happened to lebonese.
Why the USA is involved in this I do not know but i consider a united arab world free of war could sit around and work wonders with oil, the very thing america relies on.
but that divide and conquer stratergy 1 of many possible conspiracies
 Tah,
Joined: 11/18/2008
Msg: 187
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/9/2009 6:26:58 PM

Israel has never attacked a sovereign state without being provoked.

you dont know about the isreali bombing of the USS liberty do you? the idea was to sink this famous named american ship,blame it on egypt and then america invades and wipes out all of isreals adversaries and then they own the middle east.
you obviously dont know about the mossad hit squads that went around the world in the 70's assisinating any educated,articulate palestinian they could find.
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