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 Sherlock101
Joined: 1/4/2007
Msg: 1
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The Irish here seem to have many preconceived notions about their heritage and behaviors. Curious what they think about the American Indian and what would happen if the two were to mix? I’m mostly Cherokee, not quite full blooded but enough I cant grow a beard.
 Sherlock101
Joined: 1/4/2007
Msg: 2
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Posted: 2/13/2009 1:53:14 PM
I can start off by telling you to read the Trail of tears. You can probably read it online.

I didn't grow up on a reservation or anything like that. I don't know a lot about the Canadian Indians but I do know a few and know they weren't treated as badly as they were in the USA. I also know the Canadian government has been very generous with many of the tribes trying to make up for past travesties.

I traveled to many places in the world and was a bit shocked at first about what many people thought about the American Indian. They really love them and much is due to the fact that most cherish Earth as the mother.
 SmilingSalmon
Joined: 12/27/2007
Msg: 3
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Posted: 2/13/2009 6:42:09 PM
This is a thread I have to respond to, especially since I am Irish, Cherokee and Jewish.
It almost goes without saying that I am from three nations that know suffering and are deeply acquainted with abuse. Interestingly enough, I also feel that these three nations are much closer to God, spirit, nature and joy, than any others on earth. There is a knowledge, apparently earned by this suffering that doesn't seem to be present in others. Of course, this is only this one womans opinion, so please understand I am not trying to start any discussions or debates on that statement. I feel I know a lot about my heritage and I also feel I don't know nearly enough and want to know more.

Recently I have been thinking how can I get back in touch with my Cherokee heritage. I was deeply involved with a tribe when I was a child into my teens, in Dallas. After that I was more into my Irish heritage, then deeply into my Jewish heritage. Now it seems they all call to me at the same time. I feel them and think about them in a collective national sense, daily. I am not sure where it will all lead, but I write and draw, sometimes paint and often wonder if these talents will somehow be included in where this search will lead me.

I am interested in hearing more about the Cherokee Nation from your experience and point of view. Please feel free to email me here, Sherlock.

Miss Grundy, I was not aware of that story about the Cherokee sending money to the Irish. Thank you for posting that. You have wonderful information, I am learning. I too am a fan of Chief Seattle.
 SmilingSalmon
Joined: 12/27/2007
Msg: 4
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Posted: 2/13/2009 7:17:33 PM
Hey Grundy,

I just took a look at your website and it is amazing! I loved the art. It reminds me about the time I spent in Sante Fe, New Mexico in hte mountains. There is a gallery there with an American artist that does only native artwork. His paintings look very much like early Jewish depictions. I was immediately taken with it because of my heritage and collected a few pieces. This was right when his gallery first opened. He has gathered quite a lot of acclaim since then, and I am sure my pieces would be worth something. Alas, they were destroyed in a flood in California. I wish I had those particular pieces back.
 SmilingSalmon
Joined: 12/27/2007
Msg: 5
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Posted: 2/14/2009 12:21:55 AM
Oh, his name is Michael Atkinson. I went online to see if I could find a good website so you could see his paintings. Apparently his paintings are so well protected that you can hardly find a single one online. I found maybe 7 or 8 different pics of his paintings out of the 50 or so sites I looked at with his paintings. I guess that tells you he is marketable, alive and good! LOL

Well, I could not find my favorite and I cannot remember the name of it, but I did find 2 of the others I had, which are on auction. You will find them at the url below.
Pueblo Sentinel and Ancient Ways . Also Cliff People reminds me of the cliffs in the wadi where the dead sea scrolls were found and
Water Bearers is very nice, if you can find it online to look at. My favorite that I had and cannot remember the name of was Pueblo shepherds in the desert with sheep and staff, very moving. Michael Atkinsons Pueblo paintings always have distinct horizontal or vertical line, a lot of white space and muted color. Most of them depict shepherds in robes, with staff, resembling ancient Israel. He also does a lot of Victorian era homes in America. Until doing this search I did not realize he is from my home state, Texas. Lubbock, Texas specifically.

About 7 of his paintings are at this url.

earthimpressions.com/other_artists.htm

Here is a site with Water Bearers

http://dart.fine-art.com/aqd-asp-i_136456-buy-artlistinginfo.htm
 Sherlock101
Joined: 1/4/2007
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Posted: 2/16/2009 12:53:28 PM
OP still here, enjoying the interesting reading but still waiting for some opinions on the second question...
 SmilingSalmon
Joined: 12/27/2007
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Posted: 2/16/2009 2:07:42 PM
I don't see a second question. As far as the first, I personally would never know how to answer such a question, but I did tell you that that is exactly what happened in my family, both moms and dads. I had 1 great grandfather and 1 great great grandfather, both Irish straight from Ireland that married full blood Cherokee women. One of these couples never spoke the same language for the entire marriage. That particular great grandfather died in his late 40's and later his wife, my great grandmother, learned to speak English. She lived well into her nineties. Her husband, my great grandfather, did speak English, but mostly only Gaelic, especially at home.
 Sherlock101
Joined: 1/4/2007
Msg: 8
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Posted: 2/16/2009 3:50:14 PM
Smiling I think you already answered the second question just by being you and all seems good. I also think you have somewhat answered the second one to the best of your knowledge. Seems the Irish know a lot more about Canadian Indians than American...
I very much enjoyed all the responses from you and Grundy. Made me check some things out I would have never known about.
As for the lack of responses, I guess most Irish either don't know much about American Indians or don't care to, hence my first question.
 SmilingSalmon
Joined: 12/27/2007
Msg: 9
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Posted: 2/17/2009 6:48:06 AM
To Msg 15
LOL no. I wouldn't know what to write about. One of my great grandmothers, who was born in 1873, didn't pass until I was 8 and I remember her (and later my grandmother spoke of it a lot) saying that in those days and before in America there were many couples that never spoke the same language. Many people traveled extensively, adventure types, while others never traveled more than 20 miles from where they were born. These people would meet, love at first sight (which was common back then) get married and be together until they died.

Maybe only 30% to 40% of women had any measure of choice in the matter back then, but even those who did still followed social convention and did as was expected or told by certain or all men. Often people forget that until 1940's and in some places 1950's the general population of women in America were only allowed to speak when men weren't around and in whispers behind closed doors with other women when men were in the house. A woman spoke with her husband only when spoken to if men were present and when they were in private, only as much as he was comfortable allowing her to. That relationship and amount of freedom of speech she had then totally varied from man to man. Some men had normal conversation and input from their wives in private, some still carried on the "speak when you are spoken to woman" relationship even in private, and there was everything else in-between.

The few women that had any freedom back then are the ones of legend...
Molly Brown (the unsinkable Molly Brown)
Calamity Jane (Martha Jane Canary)
Belle Star - this woman led a gang of outlaws and many of the free women were outlaws, cattle drivers, business owners usually by some form of actress or prostitute.
When I speak of free women, I do not mean they didn't have relationships with men. I am mean that they managed to have lives where they could choose what they said, what they did and how they did it and most importantly, not get themselves killed for doing it.

To this very day women struggle to have a voice. It may seem they have a very loud voice and they do, but it is so new to women that they are now battling themselves rather than men for that voice. Women of this generation often are too loud because they do not yet know how to handle the freedom, women have never had this freedom before. They are far too competitive with other women instead of just leading their own lives they must feel that there is only room for a small number of women to be totally free, so they battle what they perceive as the competition. They need to stop this. Women also shoot themselves into failure because they still do not believe they have real freedom and they do not know how to act in what they still perceive as a mans world.

One day, as a few generations of women are confident in knowing women are now free, these things will stop and life will be much better for men and women relationships in general. Men in this generation are also acting horribly because they do not know how to accept free women and end up either being whimps, hateful, abusers or just totally turned off. I am sure it will all settle down in a couple more generations and finally men and women can get on with a better and more normal existance.

This is my book.
 Sherlock101
Joined: 1/4/2007
Msg: 10
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Posted: 2/17/2009 9:50:53 PM
Gaelgoir good for you bud! It's a shame though, many Indians in the west part of America are still treated horribly. That’s where most of the poverty, alcoholics stories come from. In America we have to prove we are ¼ blood quantum to receive any kind of benefits. This is very hard to do as Indians were looked down upon for so many years and most tribe’s didn’t keep your usual birth records.
 Prettypicky I
Joined: 7/14/2008
Msg: 11
Irish mix
Posted: 2/18/2009 11:12:11 AM
I am SOOO going to get whopped with rotten tomatoes a la foodies for this ( ):


The few women that had any freedom back then are the ones of legend...
Molly Brown (the unsinkable Molly Brown)
Calamity Jane (Martha Jane Canary)
Belle Star - this woman led a gang of outlaws and many of the free women were outlaws, cattle drivers, business owners usually by some form of actress or prostitute.
When I speak of free women, I do not mean they didn't have relationships with men. I am mean that they managed to have lives where they could choose what they said, what they did and how they did it and most importantly, not get themselves killed for doing it.

To this very day women struggle to have a voice. It may seem they have a very loud voice and they do, but it is so new to women that they are now battling themselves rather than men for that voice. Women of this generation often are too loud because they do not yet know how to handle the freedom, women have never had this freedom before. They are far too competitive with other women instead of just leading their own lives they must feel that there is only room for a small number of women to be totally free, so they battle what they perceive as the competition. They need to stop this. Women also shoot themselves into failure because they still do not believe they have real freedom and they do not know how to act in what they still perceive as a mans world.

One day, as a few generations of women are confident in knowing women are now free, these things will stop and life will be much better for men and women relationships in general. Men in this generation are also acting horribly because they do not know how to accept free women and end up either being whimps, hateful, abusers or just totally turned off. I am sure it will all settle down in a couple more generations and finally men and women can get on with a better and more normal existance.


The above is very eloquently stated.
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