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Show ALL Forums  > Relationships  > A girl matter.. Way beyond spilled milkshake..      Home login  
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 00redheadsaid00
Joined: 5/30/2008
Msg: 1
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A girl matter.. Way beyond spilled milkshake..Page 1 of 8    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8)
I don’t know if there are many other out there who have really close girl-friendships. I have a close net of girlfriends that could rival that of girls on Sex in the City.. Meaning we have known each other for ages and seen each other some thunderous storms in our perspective lives.

My girl friends were the ones that saw me threw the humiliating affair of a husband and the demise of that marriage they are some of the most awe inspiring strong women one could ever have meet much less be lucky enough to call them friends.

Recently there has been a division amongst the our mighty bond, and it came to be when one of my circle of friends had began an affair with a married man.. I would have never believed it was possible for something to rip our friendship apart as quickly as this has done, it has truly divided us to the point that all of the group has ostracized this individual barring me…

Which I find sort of strange as I would have thought that if there would be anyone who would have had problem with that subject it would be me seeing as I have been a causality of it.. However I am the sort of person who can very easily hate what someone does and still find it in my heart to love that person and I find that being loyal to a friendship is the only thing that will save it..

However My question is..


Is there hope for my circle of friends to survive this as I have never seen tempers so flared to the point where lines of communication are down and also if there is a way to remain neutral between the lines even though it seems that my involvement with the one friend has offended the other three..

I guess I’m looking for hope in a very bleak situation and hoping some other girl out there will have an answer I have over looked somehow…

The Redhead..
And people who are voting to delete my topic this is a relationship question.. Just not a romantic one.. There are other sort of relationships out there in life..
 Landra
Joined: 9/10/2007
Msg: 2
A girl matter.. Way beyond spilled milkshake..
Posted: 3/20/2009 1:15:32 PM
It's hard for many people to remain friends with someone who sleeps with a lying cheating married man, without any regard for the wife (and children) or the destruction she is willingly participating in.
Sorry but you cannot remain "neutral" nor flexible when it comes to issues of morality.
You either have friends who do married men, or
you don't.
Ostracizing the woman sounds like a good idea. Why "support" someone who chooses to behave so despicably? Why be loyal to someone who has no regard for what requires the highest level of loyalty and integrity (marriage vows)?
 chameleonf
Joined: 12/22/2008
Msg: 3
A girl matter.. Way beyond spilled milkshake..
Posted: 3/20/2009 2:43:22 PM
This is one of the reasons I suppose I have more male friends than female friends. I weeded out the ones with the school girl mentality of cliques long ago - and the majority of women do tend to be that way. Even at this age I hear a lot of this stupidity. I don't see the OP as having a really deep, meaningful friendship with these other women that she thought she had. You stick with your friends through thick and thin, not just when it suits you. Sex in the City was mentioned and, although it's a show and not real life, the moral of that story is that even though some of them do things that the others don't agree with, they don't turn their backs on their friends. The fact that they don't want to be friends with the OP because she has a heart and wants to remain friends with the one who has had a transgression speaks to their poor character - I wouldn't want to be known as one of their friends. JMO
 Gwendolyn2010
Joined: 1/22/2006
Msg: 4
A girl matter.. Way beyond spilled milkshake..
Posted: 3/20/2009 3:02:56 PM

This is one of the reasons I suppose I have more male friends than female friends. I weeded out the ones with the school girl mentality of cliques long ago - and the majority of women do tend to be that way.


Is that why I have more male friends than female friends?

OP, wow, I dunno.

In a case such as this, to me, friendship would be to say, "I totally and utterly disapprove of what you are doing, but that doesn't mean I will cut you out of my life. I will be here when it comes crashing down, and maybe I'll even say, 'I told you so,' but I WILL help you pick up the pieces."

Ten years ago, I had a tightly knit circle of friends--more than friends, sisters of the spirit. I made a move of which they disapproved, but not one of them castigated me or shut me out. Their actions taught me more about love and acceptance than churches ever could. My sister is the same way--she might not approve of what I do, but she is there for me.
 chameleonf
Joined: 12/22/2008
Msg: 5
A girl matter.. Way beyond spilled milkshake..
Posted: 3/20/2009 3:22:35 PM
no, gwendolyn...you have more male friends than female cuz you're a sought after commodity....someone with a head on her shoulders instead of some of the fluff for brains femininity out there. I totally agree with the way you stated yourself, as well as others who do understand what true friendship is.

I have a problem with the whole "you can't be our friend if you're going to be hers" attitude. I taught my daughter to knock that kind of crap attitude off when she was in elementary school.
 verygreeneyez
Joined: 3/15/2006
Msg: 6
A girl matter.. Way beyond spilled milkshake..
Posted: 3/20/2009 3:34:58 PM

Pick a side.

I soooooooooo disagree.

~OP~ I don't know if your clique will survive this. If the dismissed friend was NOT having an affair with one of the other friend's SO ~ why take it so personal? Our friends (our true friends) are fallible. They are human. They are ~ just like the rest of us. Sounds to me like some of your clan are trying to be moral-police and personally? I'd probably stick it out with the "other woman" before I'd stick with a bunch of judges/jurors/executioners. But that's just me.
 sweetest
Joined: 10/8/2007
Msg: 7
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A girl matter.. Way beyond spilled milkshake..
Posted: 3/20/2009 3:35:00 PM
redhead, I too am a person that finds that I can hate what someone does and still love the person.

I do see a possibility of the friendship among you being saved over time; but I think you are integral to the salvage effort on this. What may be happening is that your friends may feel somewhat taken aback by the 'breach' committed by the friend who is having the affair...after all, they just lived through the whole thing once with you.

I can certainly understand that it may be hard for them to not be judgmental about something like this; but you can help build some perspective in the group; while not sanctioning the behavior.

People often (friends included) make poor choices. Being admonished by your friends by being ostracized is not what good friends do. Being a friend to me means sometimes just providing counsel, sharing the alternate point of view---and then, the hard part – walking away from the issue and leaving it alone for the sake of the friendship. Often these things will run their natural course - the misguided will find their rightful path eventually - and at the end of it, the friendship endures; but only if each in the group can stop insisting on imposing their own moral code. JMO
 goodkindacrazy
Joined: 3/3/2009
Msg: 8
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A girl matter.. Way beyond spilled milkshake..
Posted: 3/20/2009 4:11:16 PM
My best friend had an affair with a married man. She truly believed him when he said that he was leaving his wife. She believed him when he gave excuse after excuse as to why he couldn't leave just yet. I didn't approve of the relationship and I told her so. I didn't break off our friendship for it. The married man was playing on her weaknesses and insecurities. It was my job as her friend to show her that she was worthy of better and to help her through the inevitable break up. It took almost a year but she finally made the break.

I believe that I would tell those so called friends that you don't abandon a friend that way. None of you are condoning her behavior by remaining a friend. If she had developed a drug habit would they have abandoned her? Or would they have had an intervention? To me its the same thing. Your friend is doing something that is bad for her, she needs help to quit.
 Wishes Granted
Joined: 3/6/2008
Msg: 9
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A girl matter.. Way beyond spilled milkshake..
Posted: 3/20/2009 4:33:42 PM
It would be pretty hard for me to forsake my friends who have been there for me in times of trouble. Good, solid, longtime friendships are a blessing and when one of us is in trouble.. the rest of us try to be there for each other.

The group should be truthful about how you don't approve of what she's doing nor will you listen to her on going drama and by letting her know that when the shit hits the fan you'll be there to help her clean up.. Is not condoning her actions but still shows your continued loyalty and love.

I dunno, I love my friends too much to drop all contact because they've taken a wrong road along the way. I know they've been there for me when I've needed them.. and I've been there for them as well..

Too bad your friend didn't have the intuition to realize who in the group would be so judgemental and fair-weather-like, before she disclosed her situation.
 Pitch Blease
Joined: 3/4/2009
Msg: 10
A girl matter.. Way beyond spilled milkshake..
Posted: 3/20/2009 4:49:58 PM
This might sound harsh but if you were a real friend and want it to stay that way, why is it any of your business who she is seeing? You may not agree with it, but you should stay out of her sex/love life. Unless of course, it is your husband she is sleeping with. Otherwise, it really is none of your business. Never EVER get involved with your friends love life. It will only add drama to your own life. A bunch of lies are going to happen, then you are going to have to cover for her, and so on.

You can judge her all you want, but she is going to do whatever she is going to do no matter what you say. She will live and learn like every other "other" woman before her. She'll come running back to you and the other "friends" when she realizes dating a married man is not right. It just depends if you will be there to catch her when she falls.
 Wishes Granted
Joined: 3/6/2008
Msg: 11
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A girl matter.. Way beyond spilled milkshake..
Posted: 3/20/2009 6:05:28 PM
Re: Msg 21: That's your choice and I, myself (can't speak for anyone else) won't judge you for your decision to break off ties with her.. however; by breaking off those ties, you didn't do anything to stop her from destroying her life .. Friends don't let friends drive drunk .. most times they let them stay over, call them a cab or they drive them home because they're the designated driver.

If I had been in your position, I would have said if you feel you HAVE to see him, then bring me along and get your closure from his evil ass. If she started her relationship back up with the abuser, then I suppose that it would mean that I too would leave the friendship but only because I wouldn't be able to tolerate him ..

BDG

It's a case of the pot calling the kettle black. Plain and simple. "Do as I say, not as I do". "It's not okay for you, but it's okay for me..."

Who cares if they cheated, right? Let's go back to hating men for being pigs and players instead..
.
NO one here has said this or has condoned op's friends actions or her affair. We are talking about maintaining friendships here.
 Gwendolyn2010
Joined: 1/22/2006
Msg: 12
A girl matter.. Way beyond spilled milkshake..
Posted: 3/20/2009 6:42:51 PM

Ostracizing the woman sounds like a good idea. Why "support" someone who chooses to behave so despicably? Why be loyal to someone who has no regard for what requires the highest level of loyalty and integrity (marriage vows)?


Ya know, I am not Christian, but I DO take wisdom where I can find it, and a bit of wisdom that I have tried to adhere to is, "Let she who is without sin cast the first stone."

I don't believe in "sin," but change that to "mistake." There are degrees of mistakes, of course, but having made quite a few in my lifetime, I would stand by my friend in an issue like this one even while telling her/him that she/he is an idiot.

What else do the Christians say? Love the sinner, hate the sin.
 Gwendolyn2010
Joined: 1/22/2006
Msg: 13
A girl matter.. Way beyond spilled milkshake..
Posted: 3/20/2009 7:30:59 PM

Having an affair with a married person is not a "mistake". Having an affair with a married person is done freely, willingly and with deliberate intent....


Au contraire, even a deliberate action can be a mistake:

dictionary.com says: mistake: an error in action, calculation, opinion, or judgment caused by poor reasoning, carelessness, insufficient knowledge, etc.

Also: An error or fault resulting from defective judgment, deficient knowledge, or carelessness.

And: 1. To take or choose wrongly.

One more: a wrong action attributable to bad judgment or ignorance or inattention;

The things that you list are mistakes, but of an accidental nature. The friend is most certainly making a mistake based on bad judgment and poor reasoning--even if she has considered all the ramifications, it is still bad judgment.

For example, I sent an email to a man last week that said some things quite deliberately. As soon as I hit the "send" button, I knew that it was a mistake to send it, but sending it was my intention.
 parklabrea
Joined: 1/4/2009
Msg: 14
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A girl matter.. Way beyond spilled milkshake..
Posted: 3/20/2009 7:35:53 PM
You're in a tough situation alright. Is there no way of negotiating with the girls that the one having an affair is a topic not to be discussed? I'm sure they're shocked at you supporting her, but you have to do what's right in your heart. If it comes down to either standing by your friend or leaving the group, I guess you'll be forced to ask yourself who's involved in the greatest sin, the group, who are rejecting her, or the friend, who's with a married man?

As for myself, I hold myself to a certain moral standard as well, but I express it differently than you. I gave up on a former best friend that I'd hoped to re-connect with, when I learned he was starting, and had been in before, a business that was designed to rip off its customers. I couldn't see myself going out with a beer with him, having him open his wallet to buy a drubj and all the while I'm knowing it's stolen money. I brought our friendship to an end. Not only because of what he was doing but because the character flaw that was evidenced.

I've been approached by a married woman for some, "no consequences" sex. Part of the reason I refused was because of the picture I had of her husband. I don't walk that way. Your friend is hurting at least one innocent person.

What would you think of your husband's friends, had they known about his affair and stood by him in the name of friendship. Maybe you'd be okay with that. I have the feeling that you're a much more loving and kind person than I.

I am what I do and I'm also who I associate with. That's how I see it.
 Wishes Granted
Joined: 3/6/2008
Msg: 15
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A girl matter.. Way beyond spilled milkshake..
Posted: 3/20/2009 7:59:37 PM

but it's "okay 'cause we're all friends right, and we all look out for each other"
What op's friend is doing is not okay.. and yes, IMO friends look out for each other. They don't have to agree with what she's doing, they can tell her she/he is doing the wrong thing, they can tell her what will most likely happen to devastate her/him. Then they can be there to tell her they told her so, and help her through the emotional mess she's most likely going to find herself in.

{I think} Beliefs and one's moral code are important.. but to go to the extent of discontinuing a life long friendship because of something, that in reality is not affecting You in anyway, is rather unyielding.

The other question you may want to ask yourself is this, after 10 years of deep friendship with me and taking it to the mat with her, she still chose a man who would abuse her and treat her poorly, over our friendship. Do you really think I am the one who walked away? Over some guy? I think not.
Thanks for the further update. After reading it, then I would most likely have walked as well. There comes a time when enabling someone to be stupid .. is well stupid in itself. . If someone continues behaviour that is against my basic principles over and over, well then we can be considered no longer compatible and like any relationship it's run it's course.
Tks again.

 Wishes Granted
Joined: 3/6/2008
Msg: 16
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A girl matter.. Way beyond spilled milkshake..
Posted: 3/20/2009 9:28:36 PM

WG -- Then {I think} that this is a classic "enabler" you've described in that sentence, and one that enables the bad behaviour to continue because they simply take a sideline stance because it doesn't involve them "directly". Yes indeed, we call those types ENABLERS.
someone who is an enabler will condone the behaviour over and over and over and make excuses for it. Op's friend has made one mistake (as far as we know) If her friends keep allowing her to do this over and over and over without any repercussions for her actions .. then yes, they would be enabling.

I don't see anywhere where op says her friend's situation was repetitive.
 daynadaze
Joined: 2/11/2008
Msg: 17
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A girl matter.. Way beyond spilled milkshake..
Posted: 3/20/2009 9:37:23 PM
You condone it or you don't, pretty black & white on this one. Sure she's a friend but where's your stand, your morals on the subject and how much do you tolerate something you wouldn't want in your life? It's a judgment call, we'd all have to make our own decision. I wouldn't judge your friends who are not enabling the friend having an affair, it's their right to take a stand. If you want to stay friends with the cheater friend, that's your choice and not for others to judge.

I can guarantee you that this person would no longer be involved in my life where she might sleep with my husband/boyfriend, after all, she's quite open about how those boundaries are meaningless to her. And it has nothing to do with trusting my husband or boyfriend, it has to do with not purposely putting someone around my relationship that is obviously not trustworthy.
 katrinasq
Joined: 8/2/2008
Msg: 18
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A girl matter.. Way beyond spilled milkshake..
Posted: 3/20/2009 9:42:01 PM
Wow, I sure don't envy you right now. You didn't say if she is still having the affair or if she ended it, so that may well make a difference to your circle of friends. While I think having an affair with a married man is horrible, I also think that people don't have the right to judge others this way (though I know as humans, we do anyway). I am with you in that you can love someone and hate something they do. All you can do is tell her that you are disappointed in her behavior and know she is a better person than that. I also think you should talk to the other friends about judging her for a Human mistake, and since none of you can walk on water, maybe they would consider "forgiving" her. You might mention that you should be the one with the strongest reaction, and they really surprised you in ostracizing this girl from a very close group. You may have to live with the fact that your other friends have the right to end a friendship for whatever reason and have the group on one hand, and an individual friendship on the other. Even if you feel they are being judgmental, they can and should be able to associate with people with the same general morals as they have. We all have things that are dealbreakers for both relationships and friendships, and this seems like it could be just that for your other friends.
 GoneSailinBabe
Joined: 7/6/2008
Msg: 19
A girl matter.. Way beyond spilled milkshake..
Posted: 3/20/2009 11:39:50 PM

A person who makes a CHOICE to do what your friend has done, is doing so at the 'expense of somebody else'. And if she can do something at the expense of somebody else now.....there may come a day when that 'somebody else' is actually YOU. Simply because she hasn't done anything to you YET, doesn't mean she wouldn't take full advantage of it at another time.


I think the concept of "friendship" in women is one that has age old issues, cracks and fissures. Women are not taught to be real, true or honest friends with each other. The competition, back stabbling and throat cutting occurs. ALWAYS. Where two or more or gathered atleast 75% will cut the other's throat for no reason at all.

THAT's why all my friends are men.

Normally KK I love your posts, however this one feels personally emotionalized and a little off the mark.

In that the argument you're making here could be stated about any situation that someone puts out there.

People DO make choices at the expense of others. That's life. That's all life.
So therefore the "friend" is not "friendworthy" because she makes choices at the expense of others and MAY at some point in the future make a choice that costs the op?

I take it that what you're promoting in your post is that the friend should be ostracized because she's a piece of shit undeserving of unconditional friendship simply because she's made a choice to love a married man and you've judged that to be a reprehensible act.

Therefore she should be damned to aloneness for life.


Stand for something or fall for anything


Suddenly it becomes easy to see the village folks, the stones and Hesther kneeling at their center.

Close minded people make judgements of others without compassion or consideration.

You've jumped on a badwagon of wickedness and are ready to tar and feather some woman without knowing anything factually and judging, forming assumptions and giving advice and opinion based on YOUR emotion.

I pray you're never on a jury.

OT - a friend is a friend regardless of anything. If you are not that kind of friend than the issue lies within your ability to be a TRUE friend.

A great many sanctimonious people have placed themselves in the role of the Judge of Morality in this thread. That's a role I feel that someone far more intelligent and compassionate than I should have and certainly I hope to God none of you are sitting at the gates when I get there!!!!

I think they all speak from anger, hatred, hostility and vindictiveness for being "done wrong" and I don't think any of them spoke from a place of wisdom.

Do not abandon your friends in their time of need or you will be abandoned in yours, as you should be.
 Riverkilt
Joined: 11/16/2008
Msg: 20
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A girl matter.. Way beyond spilled milkshake..
Posted: 3/20/2009 11:47:16 PM
Whoa...what a tornado of "do what I'd do" posts.

You asked if there's hope - doesn't sound like it....sad times if so...

Next question is what do you do about it. The answer is in your heart.

Time to listen to your heart.
 sweetest
Joined: 10/8/2007
Msg: 21
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A girl matter.. Way beyond spilled milkshake..
Posted: 3/21/2009 5:44:42 AM
Adultery is ‘wrong’, ‘a mistake’, ‘an error in judgment’ or whatever you want to call it… but really, it’s a very lonely place to find yourself in if your friends have abandoned you because of a choice you made. And before some of you tear into that…who among you hasn’t done something that you knew was wrong, but that you felt compelled to do anyway?

The rancor and the sanctimonious stance of some here is no longer surprising to me. From my experience on POF forums; the merest whiff of adultery and cheating seems to bring out the mob of 'regulars': those who’ve been cheated on at one point in their lives and who seem to never be able to get over it; or worse---let anyone forget about it.

To you people I say, "What if the ‘friend’ at the center of this vortex was your daughter? Your niece? Your grand-daughter?"

This thread is really about being able to love and support someone unconditionally, even while your own moral code is affronted. It doesn’t mean that you’re mute on the subject; it doesn't mean you agree with this person and it doesn't mean that you don’t get to stay true to your own personal convictions; it means that you still value that person and you continue to care about them as a friend, a niece, a daughter a grand-daughter…and that as they wrestle with this --- as surely they will; they can count on you to be there for them.

For some here it seems that to read anything that even remotely suggests condoning adultery is a flash point and an opportunity to pass judgment. I wonder… if the issue that came between the OP’s friends hadn’t involved adultery and cheating, and if adultery wasn’t the issue in question (and therefore such a morality trigger), if the OP’s friendships would be in such a precarious state; and if the polarization along morality lines on this thread wouldn’t be as evident as it is now? JMO


Edit: To those who believe we are judged by the company we keep and by not shunning the pariah in our midst...Just because I can be a supportive friend/person to another whose decisions I don't necessarily agree with, doesn't mean that I am bereft of morals myself.
 GoneSailinBabe
Joined: 7/6/2008
Msg: 22
A girl matter.. Way beyond spilled milkshake..
Posted: 3/21/2009 5:55:01 AM

To you people I say, "What if the ‘friend’ at the center of this vortex was your daughter? Your niece? Your grand-daughter?"


Answer: Stone her til she drops dead. She's immoral and unpure.

Duh.

When it comes to any whif of cheating the haters present themselves clearly.
 chameleonf
Joined: 12/22/2008
Msg: 23
A girl matter.. Way beyond spilled milkshake..
Posted: 3/21/2009 8:01:50 AM
The majority of posters who don't believe in ostracizing the friend also don't believe in condoning her actions or being actively involved in knowing and discussing her love life. This whole ostracizing the friend thing reminds me of The Scarlet Letter. The mentality of the dissers is much the same way as the town folk in the book who were so self-righteous but had their own skeletons in the closet. She might as well be forced to wear a red "A" on her clothing so absolutely everyone in society shuns her as well. While they're at it, they might as well find some witches to burn at the stake too.

For those who believe the friend would then be capable of stealing their man, you better lock your man up and throw away the key so he isn't exposed to other people in society who might want to whisk him away because of "all that thar temptation put before him" that he would have such a problem with. If this doesn't speak to your own trust issues with your SO, I don't know what does.
A girl matter.. Way beyond spilled milkshake..
Posted: 3/21/2009 9:31:45 AM
I believe true friendships are a 2-way street that are built on a basis of mutual respect, trust, and commonality of beliefs and morals. If one of my friends continued to violate one of these things, then they are not a true friend to me and why should they deserve my friendship? While a friend is entitled to make a "mistake", or two, but if that person had total disregard for anyone else in their actions and behavior, do they really deserve anyone's friendship? I do believe in forgiveness, but it should only be given when that person shows true remorse for their actions and doesn't continue the bad behavior. I'm certainly not able to judge what other people do, but I can certainly judge whom I should be friends with.
 woobytoodsday
Joined: 12/13/2006
Msg: 25
A girl matter.. Way beyond spilled milkshake..
Posted: 3/21/2009 9:47:18 AM
Sleeping with a married person is a conscious, deliberate and calculated decision regardless of the ramifications and needless to say morally corrupt.......

Peace


I my lifetime, I've had more than a few friends in marriages who were virtually abused by the spouse, and who nevertheless stayed. The men, usually, because of not wanting to lose access to his children; the women because they had no idea how to find support elsewhere. As far as I'm concerned, those marriages were MORALLY over, even if not legally so. Not all of them got involved emotionally or physically outside of the so-called marriage, but several did. I did not judge them, nor those who became involved with them.

It must be wonderful to have such a high seat on a white charger so as to be able to look down on others with contempt. I'm not Christian anymore but if I recall correctly, and I think I do, members of that religion are advised to "judge not that ye be not judged" and to forgive "seventy times seven." Also something there about not being permitted to cast stones unless you are perfect. . . . I'm seeing a LOT of peeps here claiming that absolute perfection.

Let the woman be, let whosoever's job it is judge her: it's certainly not ours. . . .

As for the OPie, good on you! Keep it up. May be that some are able to observe and learn from example.



Edit:

And to you I say what if the woman was (your) friend and the man she was having an affair with was (your) husband ?


Well, she was never my friend, but she did have an affair with my husband, which ended our marriage. And I did support her when his next affair ended hers. The world is a very interesting place. Forgiving her did me more good than it did her. A fact I wouldn't have known had I not been able to do it. . . .
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