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Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > Do you have enough guts to sue the US government for releasing H1N1 "      Home login  
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 Bonan the Carbarian
Joined: 11/2/2005
Msg: 1
Do you have enough guts to sue the US government for releasing H1N1 "swine flu"?Page 1 of 3    (1, 2, 3)
There are many parallels to this "swine flu" or H1N1 to the 1918 "Spanish flu" with US military connections in both cases.

There is also evidence that this virus is man made.

Some of the corporations that will be involved with manufacturing the vaccine have political connections to them. These corporations are set to make BILLIONS of dollars from this vaccine.

With the failing economy happening as we speak, I believe this could be seen as a motive for hyping up this virus to induce public hysteria, creating a huge demand for the vaccine, thus lining the pockets of the vaccine corporations, and all involved.

I realise this may sound very far fetched to a lot of people, but if you really dig, the evidence is there.

And before anyone tries to label me as a "conspiracy theorist", let me remind you that a theory is an idea that hasn't been proven, and it has been PROVEN that there is a conspiracy going on.




Swine Flu Created in Lab as Bio-Weapon?



According to the belief of two renowned reporters who spoke with top officials at the UN and WHO, the epidemic of the new strand of swine flu virus in Mexico is the result of an artificially created pathogen, the Online Journal reported.

Swine flu, Ebola and HIV were produced in laboratories
The reported from Mexico City claims that one of the leading UN scientists discovered certain joint transmission vectors, that is, the transmission of the swine flu virus is similar to the transmission of the Ebola virus and of the HIV/AIDS virus, which indicates that they were genetically modified with the aim of being military bio-weapons.

The UN scientist is convinced that the swine flu virus, A-H1N1, and Ebola and HIV viruses were in fact manufactured biological weapons.

As proof, they state that the usual process of transmission is that the virus is transmitted from a pig to a human, which is not the case in this outbreak because no case of a pig being infected with the A-H1N1 virus has been registered. Furthermore, the A-H1N1 virus partly contains American pig genes, partly human and bird flu strains and the virus of the Euro-Asian swine flu.

American military responsible

The other reporter, from Jakarta, claims that WHO leaders are worried that the current swine flu virus has been genetically modified to be transmitted from one species to another because of the fact that the A-H1N1 virus contains the genetic material of the H5N1 virus, that is, bird flu.

Allegedly, American scientists exhumed the body of a woman who died of the Spanish flu in 1918 and used the genetic material of the flu virus as the basis for the creation of the H5N1 virus through genetic manipulation. All this happened in laboratories at the Fort Detrick military base from which the new strain of anthrax called ames originated.

The full article can be found here: http://www.javno.com/en-world/swine-flu-created-in-lab-as-bio-weapon_254118



Novartis Gets US Contract For Flu Vax Plant


Jan 15, 2009 (CIDRAP News) – The US government has awarded Novartis a $487 million contract to help build a plant in North Carolina that the company says will be capable of producing 150 million doses of cell-based pandemic influenza vaccine within 6 months after the start of a pandemic.

Full Article Here: http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/cidrap/content/influenza/panflu/news/jan1509novartis.html



Dr Leonard Horowitz makes a case


Dr Leonard Horowitz makes a case for a vaccine manufacturer letting loose a genetically modified bug to get what they need to move forward and increase demand for their vaccines. Very convincing must see video. Authorities have admitted that the current flu is a new combination but they are mum about who made it and why.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBeKB7aKzOs

More here: http://rense.com/general85/viral.htm


Indonesian Health Minister: swine flu man-made


Indonesian Health Minister Says Swine Flu Might Have Been Man-Made | Epidemiologists and Virologists Need to Weigh In

by George Washington Page 1 of 1 page(s)

www.opednews.com

This swine flu is unusual because it combines virus segments from 3 different animals - birds, pigs and humans - and also from 3 different continents - Europe, Asia and North America.

As the Wall Street Journal puts it:

In addition to genetic material associated with North American swine flu, the strain has gene segments associated with European and Asian swine flu, North American avian flu and human flu.

It is essential for epidemiologists and virologists to weigh in on this issue. If this is a natural occurrence, they need to do a better job of explaining how it happened. This is especially true given that the Indonesian health minister has just said this might be a man-made disease, and a retired Army General has also raised the possibility. If this is naturally-occuring, it is imperative to get the word out.

If not, we need to know that immediately.

http://www.opednews.com/articles/Indonesian-Health-Minister-by-George-Washington-090428-376.html
 Bonan the Carbarian
Joined: 11/2/2005
Msg: 2
Do you have enough guts to sue the US government for releasing H1N1 swine flu?
Posted: 5/7/2009 4:17:11 AM
Thank you for the links!

If anyone has any more evidence on this, please post it!
 quietcowboy
Joined: 12/25/2007
Msg: 3
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Do you have enough guts to sue the US government for releasing H1N1 swine flu?
Posted: 5/7/2009 4:19:48 AM
HIV as bio-weapon is BS(and really doesn't make sense either). I'm sure the H1N1 evidence you posted is too.
 salmon steak
Joined: 4/13/2009
Msg: 4
Do you have enough guts to sue the US government for releasing H1N1 swine flu?
Posted: 5/7/2009 4:44:01 AM
it's about as harmless as the common cold in north of the tropics,lol, it's a joke..... A company named "roche" I believe is one of the companys who will be choosen to manufacture vaccines for the european market, they also manufacture "tamiflu". Keep an eye on the news for when contracts are tendered and buy shares,lol
 asheel_heel
Joined: 4/7/2006
Msg: 5
Do you have enough guts to sue the US government for releasing H1N1 swine flu?
Posted: 5/7/2009 5:40:01 AM
Well, MY sources tell me that YOU created the virus and that this thread is just a last ditch effort to deflect the growing attention toward your attempts at world domination.

I'd post the video links but the guys that are hunting you appear in them so they're classified.

Keep a lookout for a couple of guys in t-shirts and jeans; they're the ones who're looking for you.
 James Bottomtooth III
Joined: 5/19/2008
Msg: 6
Do you have enough guts to sue the US government for releasing H1N1 swine flu?
Posted: 5/7/2009 6:59:13 AM

...There is also evidence that this virus is man made...

It is man made.

Made by peoples greed to grow more pork and chicken in unsafe unhygienic environments and thus producing conditions for this to happen.

Then combine that with overuse of antibiotics and bingo you get a new super bug.
 Ahoytheredave
Joined: 8/29/2006
Msg: 7
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Do you have enough guts to sue the US government for releasing H1N1 swine flu?
Posted: 5/7/2009 7:24:52 AM
Perhaps the most glaring problem is assuming the government is both deviously intelligent and of one mind. That tends to be the case only when there is an identified threat.

Viruses mutate. If say a child in a Mexican village were to be exposed to several viruses at one time and a particular cell in this child were to be invaded by several of these viruses at the same time, the virus replication process would LIKELY produce a hybrid virus unleashed when that cell explodes. The child's immune system would not likely recognize this virus until it has spred and become well established. Soon a large percentage of the village would be infected and off it goes. For this reason, the virus was not detected in the pig farm operation in the village although part of the virus came from there. If there is a conspiracy, it is nature itself exercising a method of population control. Our ability to survive it through our social systems and technology is just as natural in the bigger picture.

As for coffins, Katrina was a lesson in many regards but I am guessing the sunami was the greater lesson. In major disasters, there is usually a second wave of death through disease from the bodies left in the open. Next to stockpiles of emergency food water and shelter, ways to deal with victims are about as important. It is unlikely any other country on the planet would have the forsight and/or pockets to prepare in this way. The coffins are probably to be stockpiled for disasters where ever they may occure. Would you want your loved ones placed in a coffin, bag, or just dumped in a ditch? It may sound strange but I could see emergency supplies being sent in coffins instead of crates to be a more efficient and productive disaster relief mission.
 Gwendolyn2010
Joined: 1/22/2006
Msg: 8
Do you have enough guts to sue the US government for releasing H1N1 swine flu?
Posted: 5/7/2009 7:39:57 AM
You sue the government. When you win the suit, then I'll ride on your coat-tails.
 James Bottomtooth III
Joined: 5/19/2008
Msg: 9
Do you have enough guts to sue the US government for releasing H1N1 swine flu?
Posted: 5/7/2009 10:30:08 AM

...If anything I would like to sue the idiots who travel to Mexico and bring it back and infect those they work with...

According to Laurie Garrett* H1N1 started in the US and was then carried to Mexico.


*http://www.lauriegarrett.com/index_home.html#
 AmandainVegas
Joined: 4/22/2009
Msg: 10
Do you have enough guts to sue the US government for releasing H1N1 swine flu?
Posted: 5/7/2009 11:21:16 AM
I am holding a current copy of Popular Mechanics that details a new virus Super Lab in Fort Derrick,Md. Yes I just checked it's the may '09 copy. Of course some of these diseases must be genetically messed with. I mean Germany had chemical warfare before we even actually acknowledged the threat in the Untied States. Sue the Government? Good luck! It would take every last American to accomplish that. And since most people are self consumed now they have us under their thumb. This is not the first and won't be the last. Look for more outbreaks coming soon! With the monkey and chimp populations going on the endangered list who else should they test on? There are billions of humans and more born everyday compared to the few thousand monkeys left on the entire earth. I don't trust our Government as far as I can throw the ball down the isle. They don't give two snots about us and never did. The few good ones who tried to change things were eradicated. Why is this idea such a stretch? If there are immoral people on the streets then why would they not be in the positions of power and wealth? It's common sense. But look into the magazine. It's only two pages front to back. The story is fascinating and scary at the same time. They have the facilities to study them so why not make a****ail?---you know in case Russia or Iran tries to take over. Yeah right!
 narcissist86
Joined: 3/30/2009
Msg: 11
Do you have enough guts to sue the US government for releasing H1N1 swine flu?
Posted: 5/7/2009 12:24:26 PM
Look the list goes on and on about the different things that the government is doing to manipulate us. I love all the kids going to school, reading books, and not taking an objective oppion of the things presented to them. They take history at least the western version of history as scripture.

Look at the situation let me rephrase that the genocide occuring in Palestine. The media is owned by jew simpathizers and they are painted not as the aggressor but the victum. And please dont even try to call me an anti-semite, im not about that.

The 9/11 bombing....i dont even want to get into anymore im starting to think im a nut myself. But as a rule of thumb i dont beleive anything in the news/media at least in regards to serious issues. I dunno /end rant.
 novembers fire
Joined: 1/1/2005
Msg: 12
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Do you have enough guts to sue the US government for releasing H1N1 swine flu?
Posted: 5/7/2009 2:26:33 PM
they treid to get the doctor that relased HIV on the world when they were making a vaccine for pollio, it was made from the kidneys of monkeys that were infected with SIV which is only found in africa they said they were useing monkeys from india but they ran out and used the other monkeys then they injected it into hundreds of african children and now we have AIDS. So why not h1n1 be man made? I agree with the guy that said its was caused by factory farming that makes more sense. Then some goverment trying to kill off its over populace.
 quietcowboy
Joined: 12/25/2007
Msg: 13
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Do you have enough guts to sue the US government for releasing H1N1 swine flu?
Posted: 5/7/2009 4:13:11 PM

the Indonesian health minister has just said this might be a man-made disease


Indonesian is the largest Muslim country on the planet - not exactly the most unbiased place to get information about the US,Europe, etc.
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 14
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Do you have enough guts to sue the US government for releasing H1N1 swine flu?
Posted: 5/7/2009 5:12:20 PM

Viruses mutate. If say a child in a Mexican village were to be exposed to several viruses at one time and a particular cell in this child were to be invaded by several of these viruses at the same time, the virus replication process would LIKELY produce a hybrid virus unleashed when that cell explodes. The child's immune system would not likely recognize this virus until it has spred and become well established. Soon a large percentage of the village would be infected and off it goes.
Great theory. I have a teenys weensy problem with it.

Back when I was a kid in the 1970s in the UK, the standard practice was to only vaccinate for whooping cough, diptheria, polio, Tetanus, and TB, and to encourage the kids to catch all other diseases, so they would gain immunity. So we as kids were regularly exposed to other kids with measles, German measles, mumps, Chicken pox, and every flu and cold virus going, and as a result, we were often exposed to multiple viruses at once. Often, we'd catch them from other kids in school before their symptoms showed, while they were still contagious, exposing literally hundreds of kids at once. Plus, UK kids used to play with each other all the time back then, so such diseases were spread everywhere.

According to your theory, back in the 1970s in the UK, there was such a high prevalence of these diseases, that these viruses should have mutated to make thousands of new viruses. Yet we just don't have any reports of such dangerous diseases such as Bird flu, Pig flu, or any killer retroviruses like AIDS occuring during this period, or for decades before. Not since Spanish Flu have we had such a potentially dangerous pandemic. You'd think that if there hasn't been anything that big for 90 years, that only 1 would come, not the several dangerous new variants that we've seen.
 FrogO_Oeyes
Joined: 8/21/2005
Msg: 15
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Do you have enough guts to sue the US government for releasing H1N1 swine flu?
Posted: 5/7/2009 5:29:03 PM
Sorry Scorp, but you're making some unwarranted assumptions here. The diseases you refer to are not related to one another. Influenza viruses ARE, and their immunology is such that a body may not only fail to recognize different "families" of flu, but different variants of the same strain. That's because of the external structures of the virus, which the immune system uses as identifying markers, not the actual genetic components.

Among the many families of flu are bird flu, swine flu, and human flu. To some degree, they're all interchangeable between species, but they do have a "preferred" host. More or less. They ALL seem to like pigs just fine. They're all fairly contagious, though of different virulence. Put one into 50 million ducks, it will evolve quickly and spread far, including many pigs. Put another into 100 million humans, it will also evolve quickly and spread far, including a fairly large number of pigs. Of course, the swine flu is happily evolving and spreading among swine. At some point, millions of all three are being produced in one pig. The inevitable genetic errors combined with the consequent structural errors, leads to a mostly H1N1 human flu...with genetic and structural traits which are no longer familiar to the immune system of ANY human. Poof. Epidemic.

It's got nothing to do with HIV, mumps, measles, rubella, Ebola - they're flus, they're related, they're highly contagious, and they have billions of potential hosts. You won't see the same results in other diseases.
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 16
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Do you have enough guts to sue the US government for releasing H1N1 swine flu?
Posted: 5/7/2009 6:07:14 PM

Sorry Scorp, but you're making some unwarranted assumptions here. The diseases you refer to are not related to one another. Influenza viruses ARE, and their immunology is such that a body may not only fail to recognize different "families" of flu, but different variants of the same strain. That's because of the external structures of the virus, which the immune system uses as identifying markers, not the actual genetic components.
I can understand your reticence at my logic. I tend to look at things purely in terms of the facts, not in terms of what I have been taught to believe. But your point, if true, actually makes my problem only far, far, far, far more relevant, because there wasn't just ONE influenza, or ONE cold, that we were exposed to, but MANY. I know that I got flu and cold at least 3 times a year, for every year until I went abroad, and the theory about our immune system is that once you get well again, you've gained immunity to that virus, so each new infection must be a new virus, unless we have strong reasons to believe that it is protected within the body from the immune system, such as malaria. Discounting the few years as a kid, that's 3x15 = 45 such viruses, all of the same family, and I only caught them in my neck of the woods, in North West London, in an area about 5 miles x 5 miles across, and London itself is 50 miles x 50 miles, let alone the rest of the UK.

Also, I can understand why 2 species might have trouble reproducing with each other if they are very dissimilar, because sexual reproduction requires a combination of 2 different organisms. But we are talking viruses here, and viruses reproduce by making more of the original virus, cloning. If it is in any way possible for them to mutate, or to transfer genetic material, I could not rely on the same rules as we typically apply to sexually reproductive species. But a proof would be nice, say exposure of hundreds of millions of people to 1 virus of each family, again and again and again throughout history, and it was proved that no new viruses occurred, and exposure of hundreds of millions of people to 2 viruses of the same family, again and again and again throughout history, in each case different families, and every time, it was proved that at least 1 new virus occurred. That would be reasonably reliable proof to me.
 CoolBreezez
Joined: 8/20/2006
Msg: 17
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Do you have enough guts to sue the US government for releasing H1N1 swine flu?
Posted: 5/7/2009 6:31:57 PM
One thing lost in all of this media hysteria is that flu's kill people every year. They move through the population, evolve and mutate and once in while they turn into something that will kill a small fraction of the population especially the weak such as the old, sick and those unlucky enough to have the wrong kind of immune system. In history, the most dangerous ones kill perhaps 5 % of their hosts. Multiply this times 100 million people and 5 million are dead. That's bad- but modern science has mitigated most of this through medicine, sanitary procedures, quarantining the ill and now have the ability to trace these flu's to their source and eliminate the origins in modern countries.

Several hundred people dying in North America from a disease is not a good thing but we do not have the ability to prevent all deaths at this time. Science and medicine has done a remarkable job of get us close. 500 deaths out 450 million people is about .0001 percent of the population. We would prevent far more deaths if we all stopped driving, smoking and drinking. But what fun would that be!

The media focus on this is both good and bad. But most never read past the headlines and put their own thoughts into this issue. Conspiracies require a good imagination and are more fun to talk about while playing on the Xbox.

Then again- wasn't it a US government scientist that was found to be the one sending out samples of anthrax he had prepared in his lab and when found out committed suicide? A HA- the government must be in on all of it.

Sorry - had to give the conspiracy crowd something to feed on . We could overthrow the government, but the deaths that would result would make the swine flu look like the good old days.
 FrogO_Oeyes
Joined: 8/21/2005
Msg: 18
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Do you have enough guts to sue the US government for releasing H1N1 swine flu?
Posted: 5/7/2009 6:48:23 PM

because there wasn't just ONE influenza, or ONE cold, that we were exposed to, but MANY

That is, in fact, the case. Colds, for instance, are a pretty basic set of symptoms which may have no relationship with one another whatsoever.

the theory about our immune system is that once you get well again, you've gained immunity to that virus, so each new infection must be a new virus,

That's a bit of a misconception. One doesn't really gain immunity to the virus, but to the set of identifying proteins on the outer shell of the virus. If the markers don't match something in the body's inventory of antibodies, then they don't get flagged for consumption by white blood cells. It takes a few days to "design" new antibodies. If the markers change enough to prevent a match, you won't be immune to the new bug. That may only require one change in any of several genes.

and London itself is 50 miles x 50 miles, let alone the rest of the UK.

Each strain will wander the world for years. Both the Mexican pandemic and the Spanish pandemic are illustrative of how far and fast one variant can go. 500000 people per year die of "seasonal flu", which are any of the "normal" mild strains wandering the world all the time. One person flies 10000 miles and infects 100 more. Two days later, each of those is infecting others... Just because you caught flus in your local area doesn't mean they were local flus.

If it is in any way possible for them to mutate, or to transfer genetic material, I could not rely on the same rules as we typically apply to sexually reproductive species.

All viruses transfer their genetic material - it's injected into the host cell, where the HOST manufactures copies. It's the host organism's copying mechanisms which make the errors, as they do with their own genetic material. In some viruses, like retroviruses, the viral DNA is "welded" into the host DNA. This means that every animal and plant has a genome which includes bits and pieces of countless viruses, and vice-versa. Viruses like this are actually known to accidentally move pieces of DNA between host species. It's quite likely that humans and pigs share stray bits of DNA because we'd lived in close proximity forever and have cross-infected one another.

I could not rely on the same rules as we typically apply to sexually reproductive species

So, just to reiterate what I said above - viruses are reproduced by their sexual [or asexual] hosts, and are subject to the same evolutionary effects. Most genetic changes take place before gametes are ever formed.

Each strain of virus evolves. They just evolve a whole lot faster when the host cell can get more than one mixed up.


That would be reasonably reliable proof to me.

Although a rather ridiculously high bar to achieve, that would be a good proof. But another false assumption - no-one has said the strains don't evolve on their own. Their evolution is much accelerated by recombination, which is the same reason sexual species are so prevalent.

This is all fairly well-established. Epidemiology, immunology, immunization, transmission, mechanisms of infection and replication, and any number of other areas are rather extensively studied. So much so that it's a reasonably routine procedure to use a specific virus to create transgenic organisms, such as bacteria producing a novel new antibiotic derived from a slow-growing plant. There are journals full of not only primary proof, but of the successful results derived from those proofs. Regardless, viruses are reproduced by sexual organisms, so not quite the proof you were expecting anyway.
 salmon steak
Joined: 4/13/2009
Msg: 19
Do you have enough guts to sue the US government for releasing H1N1 swine flu?
Posted: 5/7/2009 6:56:57 PM
anyone know who's getting contracts to make vaccines or produce the anti-virals for the US market?
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 20
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Do you have enough guts to sue the US government for releasing H1N1 swine flu?
Posted: 5/8/2009 6:07:49 AM


because there wasn't just ONE influenza, or ONE cold, that we were exposed to, but MANY
That is, in fact, the case. Colds, for instance, are a pretty basic set of symptoms which may have no relationship with one another whatsoever.
Then by your own premise, 2 colds would be the same as mumps and measles. However, I did include influenza viruses in this.


the theory about our immune system is that once you get well again, you've gained immunity to that virus, so each new infection must be a new virus,
That's a bit of a misconception. One doesn't really gain immunity to the virus, but to the set of identifying proteins on the outer shell of the virus. If the markers don't match something in the body's inventory of antibodies, then they don't get flagged for consumption by white blood cells. It takes a few days to "design" new antibodies. If the markers change enough to prevent a match, you won't be immune to the new bug. That may only require one change in any of several genes.
That's exactly what I was saying. The new markers are mutations.

Each strain will wander the world for years. Both the Mexican pandemic and the Spanish pandemic are illustrative of how far and fast one variant can go. 500000 people per year die of "seasonal flu", which are any of the "normal" mild strains wandering the world all the time. One person flies 10000 miles and infects 100 more. Two days later, each of those is infecting others... Just because you caught flus in your local area doesn't mean they were local flus.
I quite agree. But by no means, can we say that just because you caught a new flu, that the entire world will catch it. It depends on how it spreads. Sometimes, it stays local, sometimes, it can spread over a large region of a country, sometimes, a whole continent, sometimes, the entire world.


If it is in any way possible for them to mutate, or to transfer genetic material, I could not rely on the same rules as we typically apply to sexually reproductive species.
All viruses transfer their genetic material - it's injected into the host cell, where the HOST manufactures copies. It's the host organism's copying mechanisms which make the errors, as they do with their own genetic material. In some viruses, like retroviruses, the viral DNA is "welded" into the host DNA. This means that every animal and plant has a genome which includes bits and pieces of countless viruses, and vice-versa. Viruses like this are actually known to accidentally move pieces of DNA between host species. It's quite likely that humans and pigs share stray bits of DNA because we'd lived in close proximity forever and have cross-infected one another.
That still means it doesn't work like combinations of genomes via sexual reproduction. The mechanism cannot be assumed to work the same. Different rules will apply. Your view suggests that if a person has measles, then the genetic material of measles will get copied into the host body, and if subsequently infected with mumps, then the genetic material of mumps will also get copied into the host body, and then the host will subsequently generate new viruses using the existing material in the host body, using both measles and mumps.

Each strain of virus evolves. They just evolve a whole lot faster when the host cell can get more than one mixed up.
Why? Because we want to believe it? Once the host starts reproducing a virus, it doesn't have to stop, just becaues a new virus gets introduced. If anything, once the host gets infected, the immune system is weakened by the strain on the body, and that means that if makes it even easier for other viruses to get into the host. At that stage, they're all in there, and all being used to reproduce.

I am willing to consider that there might be an extra mechanism making it impossible. But I'd need a specific biological reason, that has been proved, to say that for sure. But your argument suggests to me that there is even greater likelihood of measles an mumps combining than I did previously.

Although a rather ridiculously high bar to achieve, that would be a good proof.
I only stated such a high bar, because science requires repeatable results, and unless most people develop mutations from every infection, that would require a large number of infected populations, with each infected population high enough to produce a new mutation.

But another false assumption - no-one has said the strains don't evolve on their own. Their evolution is much accelerated by recombination, which is the same reason sexual species are so prevalent.
I never assumed that. You seem to assume that I'm making any assumptions, when I'm simply following the logic to its logical conclusions. You could be making assumptions, as you've stated below, that mean that these logical conclusions are contradictory to your assumptions, and so, you would need other new assumptions to overrule them. I don't, because I'm not assuming anything, one way or the other. That's why I didn't say things were impossible, but simply that I had a problem with it, based on the evidence, that would only be satisfied by a theory that could explain all the existing pieces of information and that evidence on top.

This is all fairly well-established. Epidemiology, immunology, immunization, transmission, mechanisms of infection and replication, and any number of other areas are rather extensively studied.
I am sure that a lot of people are studing these things, because they don't understand them. But if they were fairly well-established, I would expect that these things would be studied only infrequently, because the knowledge would already be known, and that they could be predicted with fairly reliable principles which mean that you wouldn't get a massive pandemic scare that turns out to be a flash in the pan, such as with bird flu, and scientists would have predicted the spread of AIDS when it was first identifed, way before it spread right throughout Africa. So far as I see, the predictions made just don't match what occurs enough to state that there are any solidly reliable principles.

So much so that it's a reasonably routine procedure to use a specific virus to create transgenic organisms, such as bacteria producing a novel new antibiotic derived from a slow-growing plant.
If that is the case, then we could have engineered a MRSA-killing antibiotics in a matter of months, about 10 years ago. If anyone did that, they could have demanded hundreds of millions from the UK NHS, and got it, because it costs the NHS about £5 billion a year.

There are journals full of not only primary proof, but of the successful results derived from those proofs. Regardless, viruses are reproduced by sexual organisms, so not quite the proof you were expecting anyway.
I'm sure there are lots of papers on this. I am sure that I could write thousands of experiments and papers on any subject, without making any significant breakthroughs, and without clarifying the principles on how it works. It's possible that there could be such principles. But if they are known, then that would make diseases about as predictable as other predictable things, like mechanics, gravity, electricity, chemical reactions, and the host of other processes that rely on billions of interactions, and yet are established as being predictable.

Someday, someone might convince me otherwise, when they can develop viruses and bacteria as accurately as we can develop complex electronic components right now.

Until then, I think that a lot of funding should be put to such research, and we should just admit what we don't know.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 21
Do you have enough guts to sue the US government for releasing H1N1 swine flu?
Posted: 5/8/2009 6:38:19 AM
The militaries of the world have weapons far more efficient at killing people than AIDS, the flu or even ebola.

They're called bombs.

Wherever you have people mingling with each other and/or domesticated animals, there is the chance for viruses and bacteria to spread not just between members of individuals species but between species themselves.

A good point was made that this H1N1 virus has not really killed that many people (although that doesn't diminish the fact that people have died). The annual flu cycle kills thousands.

There is still the chance this thing could flare up but, so far, so good. It's been pretty tame. However, it is only a matter of time before the "big one" comes. It has nothing to do with government conspiracy and everything to do with nature.

Oh yeah, one other thing. Many people don't realize that the source of new diseases is in remote locations like rainforests and other wild places. These are viruses, etc, that have millions of years to sit there and evolve completely free of us. However, with continued loss of habitat, it raises the possibility of one of these diseases appearing out of nowhere.

So I guess humans can be accused of introducing diseases to the world. But it's not maliciousness, only incompetence.
 Ahoytheredave
Joined: 8/29/2006
Msg: 22
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Do you have enough guts to sue the US government for releasing H1N1 swine flu?
Posted: 5/8/2009 7:26:47 AM
Bioweapons are classified as weapons of mass destruction because of their potential to kill numbers in magnetudes only our most destructuive bombs can match. In many of man's wars, disease killed more than the weapons did. Bioweapons only make sense when you can defend yourself against your own weapon. Such weapons must then be developed in two phases. First the disease itself then the defense. The problem in such development is test subjects. Not an easy problem in a "free" society.

I really don't see how loss of habitat has anything to do with disease mutation and spred. If a species with some specific disease that has some possibility of mutation and then transfer to humans exists in a dwindling species, then the statistical chances of that disease mutating dwindle with the host population.

I would not consider mankind's inability to identify and deal with new diseases quickly as incompetence. It is the nature of diseases to be hidden until established. How to deal with new diseases becomes a judgement call and frequently, our judgement seems poor only in hindsight when the reality was that lack of experience was the reason for a poor judgement call.
 Wiyan
Joined: 12/8/2008
Msg: 23
Do you have enough guts to sue the US government for releasing H1N1 swine flu?
Posted: 9/24/2009 7:33:51 PM
here's best link I've seen so far:

www.projectcamelot.org/jane_burgermeister.html

good luck to her case!
 susan_cd
Joined: 5/16/2007
Msg: 24
Do you have enough guts to sue the US government for releasing H1N1 swine flu?
Posted: 9/24/2009 7:52:58 PM
The US govt. released it??? I musta missed that issue of the National Enquirer ( they couldn't print it if it wasn't true!!!)... ( and all this time I thought it was space aliens that released it!!!!)
 Bluesman2008
Joined: 4/2/2008
Msg: 25
Do you have enough guts to sue the US government for releasing H1N1 swine flu?
Posted: 9/24/2009 10:31:32 PM
I wouldn't be at all surprised if it wasn't done purposely. Why? Hey, it's the greatest scam on earth. Invent a disease and then sell the cure. Capitalism and insanity at it's finest. I wouldn't trust the government around the corner. Can you say thalidamide?
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