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 mir02198
Joined: 2/22/2009
Msg: 1
Which is worse...Page 1 of 2    (1, 2)
Do you think there is a difference between Men who abandon their kids and women who do it.....heard someone say that we accept that a father might do it but when the mother does it ,it's worse.....what are the views on this ??
 CartoonLoon
Joined: 2/19/2009
Msg: 2
Which is worse...
Posted: 6/12/2009 1:25:17 PM
Hmm well i think personaly from my own experiance its easyer to accept a father not being around i think everyone needs a mother, (obiously not if the mother is worse than the father). I would have found it very hard i think if i had to grow up with no mother around.
But it depends on what your parents are like i supose they could both be nut jobs and your screwed either way.
 Straight up Fella
Joined: 5/14/2009
Msg: 3
Which is worse...
Posted: 6/12/2009 2:35:56 PM
I guess (kids) most would prefer to have their mother around.
 tallaght_guy
Joined: 8/27/2008
Msg: 4
Which is worse...
Posted: 6/12/2009 5:38:41 PM
i think its down to the parents and how good they are or were with the kids lot of great fathers and terrible mothers and visa versa at end of day whoever is better parent staying is the least worst
 MalaSam
Joined: 9/8/2008
Msg: 5
Which is worse...
Posted: 6/13/2009 10:19:25 AM

I regard any man or woman who puts some other man or woman before their children, particularly young or infants...as the lowest and most untrustworthy of people the very emblem of selfishness indulgence


Have to agree with you there.

On an evolutionary side, women are designed to care for children where as men are built to provide for them, both give seperate things.
 tallaght_guy
Joined: 8/27/2008
Msg: 6
Which is worse...
Posted: 6/13/2009 11:12:00 AM
ok malasam got the chain , ball and kitchen sink ready ,be sure to have all those dishes sparkling while i provide the food
 mir02198
Joined: 2/22/2009
Msg: 7
Which is worse...
Posted: 6/13/2009 3:56:23 PM
I agree with Masalam ,in terms of ,both give seperate things...never did agree with any parent claiming they can be both Mother and Father to their children.....It just cannot be the case ...period. But my question was essentially ....why does society as a whole respond with shock impact when a mother does what many fathers have done ..and funnily enough it seems it's the other Mothers at times are the hardest on women who ,for whatever reason ,just aren't that maternal ,and are more readily accepting of the Fathers who are'nt paternal.

As a mother ,who has undying love for my child along with probably most mothers...and find it hard to understand mothers who can somewhat just walk away...it seems to me ,to be an imbalance in expectation .Why is this ?? Fathers are just as important ,yet seem to be able to sidle out of the responsibility.

I acknowledge the posts that stated without their Mother , it would have been worse....what determination becomes of that ?...so are mothers in essence more important than the Fathers?
 GDAE4u
Joined: 5/5/2009
Msg: 8
Which is worse...
Posted: 7/4/2009 5:29:19 PM
This is a complex issue.
Many men don’t live with their children because the mother has been given custody. They haven’t necessarily ‘abandoned their children’. I rarer cases fathers are given custody (much rarer in this country), this doesn’t necessarily mean that the mother has abandoned their children either.
One of the arguments against divorce when the debate raged in this country a few years ago , was that divorce didn’t prioritise the needs of the children- that is a couple should stay together for the sake of the children. Clearly this type of thinking is an oversimplification and can result in a situation detrimental to children i.e. an abusive mother or father in the home.
A mother abandoning her children is no better or worse than a father doing the same thing. Generalizations in this context are not useful , each case has to be judged individually by a hopefully impartial and sensitive judiciary.


On an evolutionary side, women are designed to care for children where as men are built to provide for them, both give seperate things.

An observation; evolution doesn’t design, living things adapt to conditions around them. The ones who are most successful at survival are the ones who are best adapted to those conditions. In that sense men and women do not have predefined or hardwired roles in the care of children- they both have free will and can choose how best to care for their offspring.
 Gaelgoir
Joined: 12/30/2008
Msg: 9
Which is worse...
Posted: 7/4/2009 5:43:12 PM
True, you can't possibly generalize on such a sensitive issue, in an ideal situation the child should go to the better parent whoever they are, but its not always the case sadly so it has got to go on case by case decision, Ive been reading about these fathers for justice group lately, it seems men are being legally forced out of some relationships with their kids just because of their sex, its a shame!
 Munsterbear
Joined: 10/6/2008
Msg: 10
Which is worse...
Posted: 7/4/2009 9:22:22 PM
Folks, you cannot just make a rash assumption like that on the basis that the parent taking control is a mother or a father.

Please take the time to see every case. Spare a moment for the fathers who lose out for thge outdated views of our court service. And spare a monent for the mothers who have to pick up the pieces after the father acts the maggot.

It is idiotic to make a general statement. Every situation has a story and a history and most of all a future. So be careful on how you throw your thoughts about
 mir02198
Joined: 2/22/2009
Msg: 11
Which is worse...
Posted: 7/5/2009 4:41:49 AM
I agree with looking at each case individually...but I'm not talking about separation situations where usually the kids live to the mother...I don't regard that as abandonment...that's just the result of separation...lots of dads continue to see their kids and help financially...but there are some who just walk away no contact and no financial help to the parent... as munster said ...that is left behind...and there is alot of those selfish so and sos out there too....but sometimes the re-action to a mother doing the complete abandoment is more animated than the re-action to the dad ....but like everyone is saying any parent doing that.... is taboo ...which is true ...
I don't think it's that idiotic to make general statements...the courts have no choice but to make general laws when dealing with these issues...simply because it is impossible to determine who is right or wrong...both the mother and the father have their story in these situations ...so they deal with facts...I'm not saying that things get over-looked ...they do ...but they cannot involve the whys and wherefores of every case...it's just too complex.....In my experience and this just what I see ...many women are dealing with fathers who never had much to do with their kids in the everyday sense when they were together and shout from the rooftops then when they go to court...proclaim to desperately want to be part of their childrens lives on every level only to fail miserbly in reality when it comes to it...and the result of this ,is the mothers then re-act to wanting to protect the children from the disappointing behaviour of the father and rile up against letting the kids have access to a father that continually causes the kids grief...not saying I agree with that ...I pesonally dealth with that scenario differently and it kept things calm ...but you can understand where the mother is coming from too...this is what I hear frm mothers...I also knew a guy who cried bitter tears cos he missed his kids ,yet when he was given access to the children EVERY wk end instead of every SECOND wk end ,he declined saying he would have no time for himself ....I though so much for tears for missing the kids....

And munster.....not being funny with you now or anything ..truly I'm not ,but this IS a forum for people to ACTUALLY throw their thoughts around thus expressing their opinion...
 mir02198
Joined: 2/22/2009
Msg: 12
Which is worse...
Posted: 7/5/2009 4:52:01 AM
Gaelgoir...I just saw your post...never would any father be legally forced out of a relationship with his children...based on his gender....I'm not a great supporter of all the courts and solicitors decisions but they will always advocate for children to have time with their fathers ....If they are not allowed to avail of their parental rights then there is something else going on in that particular situation....no doubt...What the real shame is at times is the force in which they demand to have acess to the kids just to get at the mother and then don't follow through with their promises ...I see it time and time again...not saying some dads are good but the majority that I know really aren't...
 GDAE4u
Joined: 5/5/2009
Msg: 13
Which is worse...
Posted: 7/5/2009 10:15:59 AM

I see it time and time again...not saying some dads are good but the majority that I know really aren't...


You must know alot of single dads to make such a determination..................what an extraordinary statement!
 mir02198
Joined: 2/22/2009
Msg: 14
Which is worse...
Posted: 7/5/2009 1:35:41 PM
Don't be facetious I'm a hairdresser and I have a good few clients who are the wives of the single dads .....also have had friends over the years that have ex-partners...women talk .....and it is from those that I make the determination....I also know guys that make a good effort to be part of their kids lives but even so it's usually alot of the time on their terms...that's what I see in my experience....and for the record I was not giving statistics...I haven't conducted a study ...I was speaking from what I hear from others etc. ....so an "extraordinary statement "...it was not......If the majority of single dads out there are in touch with their children ,to the best of their ability.... then I stand corrected...but that's not what I hear in general .....And that scenario is also collaberated my my own situation to boot...I get on very well with my ex and I believe it's because I never had a hissy fit like some mothers do when he arrived late ...or didn't arrive at all ...or cancelled ...or only came when he wasn't doing anything else ...I decided to just be the soft place to fall for my disappointed child ...it worked....I say to the women I spoke to ...you can't control another person...if he want to see his kids he'll make time and if he's a selfish prat ...hollering won't change the result for the better ....only for the worse...
 GDAE4u
Joined: 5/5/2009
Msg: 15
Which is worse...
Posted: 7/5/2009 1:58:28 PM
Facetious? I think that word is unfair to use in this context. I expect that as a hairdresser you are privy to a lot of gossip as am I in my line of work. I am aware that when listening to reports by these people that their testimonies are to be taken with some scepticism. From reports that I have gathered I may claim that most fathers act in a totally responsible fashion and it’s the mothers who have custody who frustrate their efforts- but there again I treat such information with a healthy degree of scepticism .
It’s a rainy Sunday afternoon and therefore I have time on my hands to give this some thought. It’s an important issue that you have raised.

Going back to the original question as to whether the idea of a mother abandoning her kids is more shocking than a father- I would have to say no. The question carries with it an underlying assumption that mothers are more suited to parenthood than fathers and therefore their betrayal of children is somehow worse. I mean no offence and don’t want to start a fight, I just think that too many assumptions are made about men’s inherent ability to care for children and often there is an unspoken prejudice against them especially in the courts.
 SimplyKendra
Joined: 5/22/2009
Msg: 16
Which is worse...
Posted: 7/5/2009 5:53:51 PM
Yeah theres a difference. A woman carries her child within her for 9 (actually closer to 10) months then gives birth. We have time to bond and our maternal instincts are very strong.

Men don't bond with children while they are in the womb as we do..they usually get attached after time. (No, this doesn't apply to all men but most)
 GDAE4u
Joined: 5/5/2009
Msg: 17
Which is worse...
Posted: 7/5/2009 6:12:08 PM

Men don't bond with children while they are in the womb as we do..they usually get attached after time. (No, this doesn't apply to all men but most)

So your point is?
 mir02198
Joined: 2/22/2009
Msg: 18
Which is worse...
Posted: 7/6/2009 4:40:17 AM
Well I used that word cos that's how it came across ..if you weren't trying to be that then I stand corrected...hardly matters anyway!...I'm glad you got back to the original question and I do agree with the assumption that mothers are more suited etc etc .and I feel this is ,as you say the reason why there is more shock attached to women abandoning their kids...we could thrash out the reasons for that too but I think this topic is exhausted at this stage

The issue of mothers versus fathers is a different story ...but it's kinda futile as both offer different things to their children ...the problems arise from the emotions generated from the split and the inherent difference between how men and women deal with all things family orientated....sometimes both are on different pages ...

I don't regard the conversations with those clients as gossip ...they are just ordinary women frustrated at the ex husbands ..partners whatever ,and of course sceptism is always there as I don't know the full story.... but their demeanor suggests they are telling pretty much the truth...I'm sure listening to a father would be the same ...nobody really knows truly how interaction between parties really is ....but it sure is a topic of contention.....
 Lion_of_York
Joined: 6/18/2009
Msg: 19
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Which is worse...
Posted: 7/8/2009 12:16:44 AM
"I do agree with the assumption that mothers are more suited etc etc .and I feel this is ,as you say the reason why there is more shock attached to women abandoning their kids..."

In the States, the assumption that mothers are more suited is very strong in the Courts. Very few men have any choice whether to raise their children. You used the word "abandon" and I think that is unfair. Not many voluntarily abandon any of their children. (My kid brother did. He walked out on his wife and kids to get a divorce. But he was unusual. Most divorces are initiated by women in the US.)

That assumption is not only strong, it is wrong. The children are by law to be awarded in the best interests of the child, which confounds the assumption entirely. In nearly every instance of child abuse and neglect of a divorced parent, including sexual abuse, it is almost never the StepMother (Disney characterizations notwithstanding) but almost universally the StepDad. Moms seem to be unable to protect their own children from the abuses by their new boyfriend or hubby. They are naturally torn by conflicting desires and affections. Boyfriend or new hubby know that the children are not his own (most of the time) and seldom have any of the normal restraints that might prevent abuse or sex with children as they age. Were these children with their daddy, they would be much safer. StepMoms and girlfriends are unlikely to abuse or have sex with the children as they grow up.

I have known women who voluntarily agreed to leave the children with their father when the divorce occurred. Some of them were motivated by money, where coin was paid to make the agreement. Others were convinced the children would be better cared for and a few simply did not want the extra baggage. The latter seem to feel that having children with them would make them less mobile and inhibit their ability to find a new husband. Sometimes they already have a new boyfriend, who does not want to raise another man's children.
 mir02198
Joined: 2/22/2009
Msg: 20
Which is worse...
Posted: 7/8/2009 4:07:27 AM
Lion...I used the word abandon cos that's what the thread is about...i.e the parents abandonment of children ,financially and emotionally. I am not talking about parents who ,because of a separation/divorce do not live with their kids. That is not abandonment,alot of separated couples of course ,do end up in a routine of the kids spending time with the other parent and the other parent pays maintenence for their children....I am not talking about such situations.I am talking about the men OR women who choose to not have anything to do with their kids AT ALL... no seeing them at week-ends and no financial assistance for the parent who IS rearing them. That IS abandonment ,not an unfair word at all.... And the main question to this topic was ...why is their more shock attached to the women abandoning their kids than when men do it...The question has been aswered which is "the assumption that women are more suited "Course this in itself is a huge issue with many complexities and the subject of mothers versus fathers is a no -brainer in my view...in the end the two people who brought children into this world have to somehow get it together on any level and look after those kids ....

I do agree with you Lion however about the step-dads being a negative introduction to the kids lives ....don't have stats on it I would imagine that stepdads are more likely to end up a bad choice that the mother made....in general...Having said that do know of stepdads that have been great with their stepkids ....aswell as stepmoms ...like I said it's a complex thing and not every story is exactly the same ...
 Lion_of_York
Joined: 6/18/2009
Msg: 21
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Which is worse...
Posted: 7/8/2009 11:32:06 AM
Thank you for establishing what you mean by abandonment.

I also agree that every case is not the same. It seems terribly complex and that only makes the assumption even more irrational. Any experienced social worker already knows about the prevalence of child abuse, including sexual abuse, by stepdads and boyfriends......including a surprising number of child fatalities......but the bureaucratic response has not been to compile relevant statistics, even for their own internal use.
 Pedro 1976
Joined: 3/23/2007
Msg: 22
Which is worse...
Posted: 7/8/2009 1:06:18 PM
"its easier to accept a father not being around i think everyone needs a mother"

yeah you surely mean those mothers gaving birth and throwing babies in a rubbish bin at midnight!

a mother is not better than a father. the fact that we tend to think that we need a mother more than a father is rubbish. it is because through history men have had to work, whereas women stayed at home looking after us, so that explains that nonsense.

if a child grew up with the father 24 hours a day, day by day, with the mother away from 9 to 5, the child would for sure need the father more than the mother.

a man is able to look after his child the same way a woman does, and none woman looks after a child better than a man, nor a man better than a woman of course.
 charro12
Joined: 6/9/2009
Msg: 23
Which is worse...
Posted: 7/11/2009 2:20:56 PM
theres no difference, the loss of any parent, 4 whatever reason, ultimately affects the child,,,
 mir02198
Joined: 2/22/2009
Msg: 24
Which is worse...
Posted: 7/11/2009 4:38:51 PM
I agree Charo...but it's not what the thread is about.....
 kas_amya
Joined: 7/5/2009
Msg: 25
Which is worse...
Posted: 7/12/2009 3:57:48 AM
i agree with all that say it depends on the parents.
whilst my parents were still together i remember a lot of my mothers care and a lot of dad working. our father had very little time for us as kids. however when it came to the crunch, he became the sole provider for us and has successfully raised 3 children from young teens to be very good people.
he gave us his all and we all love him dearly. not one second do i ever believe it would have been better with our mother.

the amount of love in a parent has nothing to do with their gender.
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