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Show ALL Forums  > Manitoba  > "other people's kids" or your tax dollars at work      Home login  
 AUTHOR
 Belle Requin
Joined: 2/17/2007
Msg: 1
"other people's kids" or your tax dollars at workPage 1 of 3    (1, 2, 3)
I think it's been said here previously "Why should I care about other people's kids?" And certainly some have the idea that they should not be concerned with the welfare of kids that don't belong to them.

I *assume* most of us pay taxes. I have one client, who while at a McDonald Youth Services Placement, required 2 staff members at all times. Total cost to CFS: $800/day. That's $24000 a month to care for the girl. I have several clients who require one on one education/tutoring. Cost varies, but it's not parents paying for it. Also, we have street mentors, Spotlight Program, Intensive Support and Supervision Programs, Auto Theft Suppression Strategy, all funded by our gov't as part of probation services.

As a society, we are creating kids that cost us a FORTUNE. CFS virtually never provides stability or security for kids, but costs much money to operate.

So- would you rather have people make a career off of "at risk" kids/youth on your dime, or do something yourself to help them out? (Or for some of you, do nothing and let evolution take it's course (which may involve your car getting stolen a few times...)
 SpecialHeartedLady
Joined: 2/11/2008
Msg: 2
other people's kids or your tax dollars at work
Posted: 6/17/2009 4:09:46 PM
I agree with you, but want to know what you'd like to suggest everyone do.

Cindi
 susan_cd
Joined: 5/16/2007
Msg: 3
other people's kids or your tax dollars at work
Posted: 6/17/2009 10:47:20 PM

So- would you rather have people make a career off of "at risk" kids/youth on your dime, or do something yourself to help them out? (Or for some of you, (which may involve your car getting stolen a few times...)


It's a quandry... but how many of these special needs children could have been screened & identified through amniocentisis ? I ask because I'm ignorant on the subject. If the amniocentisis shows the child is going to be a special needs child when born, the parent ( or parents) should have 2 options :

1) abortion

or

2) carry the baby through full term but the parents accept all financial responsibility for the care & raising of the child if it is special needs, including arranging a fund so if and when the parents die the child will be taken care of with no cost to the taxpayer

And I wonder, how many of the repeat car thieves are special needs?


Cost varies, but it's not parents paying for it.


That's 1 of the problems right there, if little Jane or Johnny can't function in society without an expensive support structure because they're special needs, how is it that isn't the responsibility of the parent?


do nothing and let evolution take it's course


If we did that, then evolution would remove the problem long before the child became a drain on society.
 SmartAlec
Joined: 2/8/2005
Msg: 4
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other people's kids or your tax dollars at work
Posted: 6/18/2009 5:01:55 AM
Hmmmmm - how responsible is it for you to be discussing "your clients" on a public forum? I don't think the agency that you work for would be real excited about that! As a professional you should know better.
 Belle Requin
Joined: 2/17/2007
Msg: 5
other people's kids or your tax dollars at work
Posted: 6/18/2009 7:00:35 AM
Discussing specifics is forebidden, and I don't. Moreover, what I say has already been said in court making it public record. I don't work for an "agency" I work for myself.

What do I suggest? People take more active roles. Mentor those who are parents. Mentor those who don't have good parents. Either through organized volunteer work, or your own initiative, do something positive for the life of a kid not your own, who needs help. (And for the record, yes, I work with these kids and get paid, but I also spend about 4-6 hours a week volunteering with innercity/North End kids)

Most of these things would not have been detectable by anmiocentisis. And while I'm not surprised you have no respect for human life Sue, I'm personally anti-abortion, and anti-eugenics, so no, I'm not suggesting we kill everyone with special needs before they're born. (Where did your concern for the innocent go? Oh, innocent and not costing you money is what you care about, I see.)

FASD you can't detect from amniocentisis. Mom's fault? Absolutely. But most women who drink while pregnant are already undereducated and not going to be able to afford special care regardless. Your suggestion of make mom and dad pay when they are never going to be able to only harms the kid- who really, I think is the innocent one in all of this.

There's also too many people having kids who don't know how to be parents- youth and adult. And discipline, focus, and bonding are all things taught at home. We ship kids off to group homes all the time, where they never really learn how a family is supposed to operate, and so they don't know how to "raise" a child when they have their own.
 armaegis
Joined: 8/25/2008
Msg: 6
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other people's kids or your tax dollars at work
Posted: 6/18/2009 9:19:56 AM

There's also too many people having kids who don't know how to be parents- youth and adult.

That's really the crux of the problem right there.

Now if you're excuse me, I think I'll go rent Gattaca now...
 susan_cd
Joined: 5/16/2007
Msg: 7
other people's kids or your tax dollars at work
Posted: 6/18/2009 10:52:23 AM

And while I'm not surprised you have no respect for human life Sue, I'm personally anti-abortion, and anti-eugenics, so no, I'm not suggesting we kill everyone with special needs before they're born.


TY for the info on amniocentesis; but if you'd read my entire post, you'd see that I said give the parents the OPTION of an abortion or taking full responsibility for THEIR child.


(What do I suggest? People take more active roles. Mentor those who are parents. Mentor those who don't have good parents. Either through organized volunteer work, or your own initiative, do something positive for the life of a kid not your own, who needs help.


You're quick to tell us why we should use our time to help these people ( nothing wrong with that, kudos to those that do). I'm not surprised you're anti-abortion, since a lot of special needs or disadvantaged children means job security for you. I'm not pro abortion, I am pro choice tho, as long as someone isn't using abortion as a form of birth control.

There's lots of churches all over the city getting tax breaks; why not change things so these churches have to give up so much space for so many hours a day for teaching facilities for speacial needs children & parent skills classes?


Where did your concern for the innocent go? Oh, innocent and not costing you money is what you care about, I see.) ... There's also too many people having kids who don't know how to be parents- youth and adult.


And you think my money should be used for other people's children? What about personal responsibilty? And why not requiring a license if you're going to have childrenm you need to take classes & get a license to drive a car or own a firearm?

Pregnant & no license? NP, did you want an abortion or ro give up th echild for adoption ( family members & friends not eligible for adopting)?

What's that? That's taking away a woman's right to have children? OK, she can have HER child but it's HER child not society's so she ( or they if it's a couple) responsible for the child. If it isn't a couple, then go after the man that got her pregnant for mandatory support payments.
 susan_cd
Joined: 5/16/2007
Msg: 8
other people's kids or your tax dollars at work
Posted: 6/18/2009 10:57:17 AM

I read this and almost choked. I didn't realize such attitudes existed like this since say, oh about the second world war. I started looking through the faq, checking out the rules about how I can respond to this without getting thrown out and found that if I really spoke my mind and said what I really felt, I would probably be banned forever.



??? you take everything posted here as a serious post? Heck, lots of what I post is just to get the thread fired up .

As a matter of fact, I worked for a time with the MAMR ( Manitoba Association for the Mentally Retarded .... sorry this was late 70's and pre politically correctness, that's what it was called) as a day assistant with an autistic gentleman and as a live-in night attendant at a halfway house; these were very rewarding times.


( glad I didn't post my suggestions for compulsory sterilization of those with asthma, cystic fibrosis, type 1 diabetes, peanut allergy, etc etc )
 flyin-high
Joined: 10/28/2007
Msg: 9
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other people's kids or your tax dollars at work
Posted: 6/18/2009 10:57:51 AM

I didn't realize such attitudes existed like this since say, oh about the second world war.
I’ve been calling susan-cd a Nazi for over a year, finally, someone else noticed!
 susan_cd
Joined: 5/16/2007
Msg: 10
other people's kids or your tax dollars at work
Posted: 6/18/2009 1:19:27 PM
I’ve been calling susan-cd a Nazi for over a year, finally, someone else noticed!


And as I stated before, I can be a totalitarian WITHOUT being a Nazi.

Btw, still can't seem to find any threads you've started, perhaps you can let me know the title of any such threads ... ( but then, you'd have to actually post some original thoughts and idea, instead of just posting comments on other people's threads saying their ideas won't work or are wrong with no accompanying ideas/suggestions of your own). So much easier to just tell someone else they're wrong if you don't have a solution of your own.

And of course, when no logical educated reply comes to mind, then just call the other person a Nazi or racist, why bother going to all the trouble of debating a point ?

( and again, I can't believe so many people take everythong posted here as serious comments )
 susan_cd
Joined: 5/16/2007
Msg: 11
other people's kids or your tax dollars at work
Posted: 6/18/2009 1:22:13 PM

Oh!!! You were making a funny. About kids with special needs. I see. So sorry I didn't quite get the joke.


Not quite sure how saying someone should get an abortion is making fun of special needs kids, it's just a facetious statement giving a ( ridiculous) suggestion on how to fix a problem.
 Belle Requin
Joined: 2/17/2007
Msg: 12
other people's kids or your tax dollars at work
Posted: 6/18/2009 1:25:14 PM

An embryo isn't innocent or guilty. It is a tiny collection of undifferentiated cells.
I didn't realise amniocentises could be done on embryos- I thought being a fetus was a little more necessary. This is not supposed to be an abortion debate.
 susan_cd
Joined: 5/16/2007
Msg: 13
other people's kids or your tax dollars at work
Posted: 6/18/2009 1:32:10 PM
This one's for flyin-high.



Godwin's Law
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
More spoken articles Godwin's Law (also known as Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies) is a mainstay of Internet culture, an adage formulated by Mike Godwin in 1990. The law states:

As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.[1]

Godwin's Law does not dispute whether any particular reference or comparison to Hitler or the Nazis might be apt. It is precisely because such a comparison or reference may sometimes be appropriate, Godwin has argued,[2] that overuse of the Nazi/Hitler comparison should be avoided, as it robs the valid comparisons of their impact.

Although in one of its early forms Godwin's Law referred specifically to Usenet newsgroup discussions,[3] the law is now applied to any threaded online discussion: electronic mailing lists, message boards, chat rooms, and more recently blog comment threads and wiki talk pages.

There is a tradition in many newsgroups and other Internet discussion forums that once such a comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically "lost" whatever debate was in progress. This principle is itself frequently referred to as Godwin's Law. Thus Godwin's Law serves to impose an upper bound on thread length in general. It is considered poor form to raise arbitrarily such a comparison with the motive of ending the thread. There is a widely recognized codicil that any such ulterior-motive invocation of Godwin's Law will be unsuccessful (this is sometimes referred to as "Quirk's Exception").[4]

Godwin's Law does not apply to discussions directly addressing genocide, propaganda or other mainstays of the Nazi regime. Instead, it applies to inappropriate, inordinate, or hyperbolic comparisons of other situations to Hitler or Nazis. However, Godwin's Law can itself also be abused, as a distraction or diversion, to fallaciously miscast an opponent's argument as hyperbole, especially if the comparison the argument made were actually appropriate.
 haywiresue
Joined: 9/27/2006
Msg: 14
other people's kids or your tax dollars at work
Posted: 6/18/2009 2:25:23 PM
There is a big difference between children being born disable as a result of nature, when the mother does everthing right to have a safe, normal and healthy child, and those who have absolutely no regard for the baby they have produced and drink, take drugs, smoke and do other things.

I believe that as a society, we have removed the personal responsiblility for harming a child before its been born, as the rights of the mother outweigh the rights of the child. Then in most instances the mother/parents dump the child because it disrupts their lifestyle. I would like to see criminal charges laid against women who do that, but with our Charter of Rights, it will never happen.

Criminals stand in court and cry the blues about their terrible childhood, and once again, whatever the crime, the punishment is always lessened and things get chalked up to "oh that poor person". I would like to see the death penality and strike 3 rule in effect here. IMO if you are not a contributing law abiding citizen, then you should not have the priviledges afforded to and paid by contributing law abiding citizens.
 susan_cd
Joined: 5/16/2007
Msg: 15
other people's kids or your tax dollars at work
Posted: 6/19/2009 9:19:37 AM

Now don't you see how someone could take that to mean that if the parents do not terminate a pregnancy, if it's known a child may be handicapped, the state, government or taxpayer (take your pick) should not contribute to the care and well being of special needs children?


It would be a solution, not saying it'd be a good one.

But could you explain why, if a parent ( or parents) knew they were going to have a child that was going to be severely handicapped the taxpayers ( you mention the state and government, but all the $$ they have comes from the taxpayers) should be on the financial hook for the increased costs of such a child? If the parents chose to have the child rather than an abortion, it was their choice, let them live with the consequences/reality of their choice. Some couples are choosing to delay having children because they feel they can't afford one right now due to their financial situation, parents that choose to have a special need child should ensure they ( not th taxpayers) can afford to have one.
 susan_cd
Joined: 5/16/2007
Msg: 16
other people's kids or your tax dollars at work
Posted: 6/19/2009 9:23:32 AM

As a society, we are creating kids that cost us a FORTUNE.


captain girlygirl, I missed this comment on the original post. I think you meant to say "some PARENTS are creating kids that cost us a FORTUNE".

Unless there's some process recently discovered that allows impregnation through some form of osmosis, if that's the case we should avoid crowds & public transportation!
 susan_cd
Joined: 5/16/2007
Msg: 17
other people's kids or your tax dollars at work
Posted: 6/19/2009 11:47:24 AM

The day we allowed the government to step in take away our parenting rights was one nail in the coffin. I am not pro abuse at all but a simple spanking does not hurt. Now parents are afraid to be parents because they can not do so effectively.


Gotta agree with you on this, a spanking in & of itself isn't necessarily child abuse ( unless you're spanking the child in anger, that'd mean you've lost control). If I recall correctly, I was spanked 3 times when I was growing up, & looking at why my father spanked me, I deserved it each time.
 flyin-high
Joined: 10/28/2007
Msg: 18
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other people's kids or your tax dollars at work
Posted: 6/19/2009 12:26:27 PM

But could you explain why, if a parent ( or parents) knew they were going to have a child that was going to be severely handicapped…
The parents never “know” for sure, neither do the doctors, the specialists or anyone else for that matter… there are NO guarantees.

Example:
Accuracy of an amniocentesis test = 99.5%. This means 1 out of 200 will be misdiagnosed. Even if you test 2 or 3 times you would only be reducing the odds, and not eliminating the potential for error.

I guess it depends what you consider acceptable odds for killing a perfectly healthy baby.


 Belle Requin
Joined: 2/17/2007
Msg: 19
other people's kids or your tax dollars at work
Posted: 6/19/2009 1:42:44 PM

I would like to see criminal charges laid against women who do that, but with our Charter of Rights, it will never happen.
Moreover, what would it change? A woman willing to abandon her child is not going to be bothered by a few months in custody. Plus, keeping a child away from mom immed after birth does not help the child bond at all.


I would like to see the death penality and strike 3 rule in effect here. IMO if you are not a contributing law abiding citizen, then you should not have the priviledges afforded to and paid by contributing law abiding citizens.
We're dealing with kids here, criminal or otherwise, kids can only contribute if someone shows them how. Please stay on topic.


Personally I am neither pro life or pro abortion. To me it really depends on a lot of factors.
Again, not wanting an abortion debate. But for Sue's (lunatic) proposal, abortion really needs no part in this discussion.


We are all at fault here parent or no parent.
I couldn't agree more.


This will require parents, grandparents, schools and the justice to work together. There were some good ideas here like matching a good parent with a weaker parent. That is good but there is no clear way that one can determine what is a gooood parent.
I don't think it's that hard to determine what is a good parent. Do you have kids? Are they well adjusted? Doing alright in school, attending regularly, not starting fights, shop lifting or hurting themselves? You're a good parent. Maybe not the best, maybe not ideal, but if you've figured out how to raise acceptably behaved kids, you can help someone else do the same.
 Belle Requin
Joined: 2/17/2007
Msg: 20
other people's kids or your tax dollars at work
Posted: 6/19/2009 1:56:27 PM

Godwin's Law does not apply to discussions directly addressing genocide, propaganda or other mainstays of the Nazi regime.
http://www.lifeissues.net/writers/air/air_vol16no1_2001.html Eugenics, (which is what YOU were promoting) and selective abortion for "the unfit" were entirely part of the Nazi regime.


However, Godwin's Law can itself also be abused, as a distraction or diversion, to fallaciously miscast an opponent's argument as hyperbole, especially if the comparison the argument made were actually appropriate
Yeah, his comparisong was appropriate. Which would mean you're abusing Godwin's law.
 susan_cd
Joined: 5/16/2007
Msg: 21
other people's kids or your tax dollars at work
Posted: 6/19/2009 2:28:08 PM
Eugenics, (which is what YOU were promoting) and selective abortion for "the unfit" were entirely part of the Nazi regime.


With the Nazis the abortion was compulsory, and usually accompnied with sterilization... I said offer the parents the OPTION of choosing to abort, or accepting all the extra financial costs should the child be a speacial needs person. In other words, making the parents responsible for their child, not making the taxpayers responsible.

To pull a quote from your original post which started the thread :


So- would you rather have people make a career off of "at risk" kids/youth on your dime, or do something yourself to help them out?


The other option ( besides people making a career out of these kids or doing something yourself to help them out) is to have the parents take full responsibilty for their children. Or perhaps have the laws in place so if society is to take some responsibility for their children then members of society can discipline people's children when they are acting inappropriately ( shoplifting, commiting acts of vandalism, setting fires, etc).


Yeah, his comparisong was appropriate. Which would mean you're abusing Godwin's law.


I don't have any swastikas ( I know the Nazis stole that symbol from another culture) I'm a bi crossdresser ( hardly a prime Nazi candidate) and I haven't said anything against the jews, gypsys, gays... he can call me a totalitarian based on some of my comments ( or perhaps a totalitarian wannabe ?) and I'd accept that due to what I have said here at times. As I pointed out, a person can be a totalitarian without being a Nazi.

My point on the posting of the Godwin's law material was that I've never seen flyin-high do anything other than tell people he doesn't agree with that their ideas are wrong or unworkable, doesn't explain why they're wrong ( just calls the poster a totalitarian or a Nazi) but doesn't propose any solutions of his own . He criticizes other people's suggestions/solutions but doesn't offer up any of his own for discussion.

It'd be like offering as your rebuttal to your opponent during a debate only the staement "you're wrong". Gainsaying someone's posts is hardly discussing/debating them.

Maybe in the future I should follow all my posts with the comment "flyin-high says this is wrong", that will save him from having to respond & he may have enough free time then to originate a new thread of his own.
 juan mo oclock
Joined: 3/19/2008
Msg: 22
other people's kids or your tax dollars at work
Posted: 6/19/2009 4:05:18 PM
maybe parents with problem children should be made to pay for all associated costs by being given government jobs?..........good pay, benefits, and now you can see your tax dollars at work.............
 susan_cd
Joined: 5/16/2007
Msg: 23
other people's kids or your tax dollars at work
Posted: 6/19/2009 4:13:55 PM

The costs of raising a special needs child can vary from no more than any other child to tens of thousands yearly. Once they reach adulthood $100,000 is not unheard of.
And what would you do with these children if the parents won't or can't pay for them?


Dunno, what do YOU suggest we do?

I suppose if the parents can't or won't take responsibility for them we can send them to the churches to raise them, since the churches get tax breaks even tho religion is a business now. Or maybe make every parent having a child buy a speacial insurance coverage plan, that pays out the extra expenses of raising a special needs child. If your child is then born & isn't special needs, you can stop paying into the insurance but forfeit what you've paid into it prior to the birth. And have a special tax on manufacturers of alcohol ( since it can cause FASD ), with the tax going into costs of special needs children... not into general revenue.
 haywiresue
Joined: 9/27/2006
Msg: 24
other people's kids or your tax dollars at work
Posted: 6/19/2009 4:43:47 PM
MESSAGE 26, 27, BLAH.....BLAH.....BLAH FIRST OFALL THIS IS A FORUM FOR DISCUSSION BY EVERYONE AND EVERYONES OPINION IS ALLOWED.

WHERE IN HELL DO YOU GET OFF TELLING ANYONE THEY ARE OFF TOPIC! IF YOU DON'T LIKE WHAT IS WRITTEN AND IF YOU ARE UNABLE TO RESPOND IN A RESPECTFUL MANNER, IGNORE THE POST OR COMMENTS.

FURTHERMORE, WHERE IN HELL DO YOU FEEL YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO REFER TO ANYONES POST AS LUNATIC? IF YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH ANYTHING ANYONE POSTS AND CAN'T BE ADULT OR RESPECTFUL - SHUT THE HELL UP & BACK OFF!

THE FORUMS ARE FOR EVERYONE, REGARDLESS IF THEIR OPINION IS THE SAME AS YOURS.

I HOPE THE MODS GET A PEEK AT YOUR CHILDISH BEHAVIOR.
 Belle Requin
Joined: 2/17/2007
Msg: 25
other people's kids or your tax dollars at work
Posted: 6/19/2009 5:08:12 PM
^^^It's "my thread" so that would be where I get off telling people when they're off topic or not. You may not have read the rules, but posts are supposed to stay on topic. If you'd like to start a thread on abortion, go ahead. The *forum* is open for discussion, but threads are to be limited to the topic brought up in the original post, or ones directly relevant to something said on a post. I'm trying to avoid you hijacking the subject.

I fail to see how I wasn't respectful, though regardless, given your appalling treatment of me in other threads, I'm not surprised if you have a bias against me. I certainly didn't feel the need to yell a post or tell you to shut up.

If "EVERYONES OPINION IS ALLOWED [sic]" then that would give me the right to refer to Sue's (And I meant susan_cd- little effort might allow you to notice that I have repeatedly just referred to her as Sue) post as lunatic. You I'd refer to as Haywire.

I hope the mods get a peek at YOUR childish behavior, because you either don't seem to know the rules at all, or are entirely selective in their application.
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