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Show ALL Forums  > Off Topic  > Strong and Logical Argument FOR The existence of Divine Beings      Home login  
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 NotGorshkovAgain
Joined: 4/29/2009
Msg: 2
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Strong and Logical Argument FOR The existence of Divine BeingsPage 1 of 3    (1, 2, 3)

From the religious side: I'd like to see a logical,cogent and coherent argument that supports your belief in a "god" or "gods" or that would convince others that they should at least consider your beliefs.

Why should they have to justify their faith in god, any more than a Toronto Maple Leaf fan has to justify THEIR belief that they're gonna win the cup next year? (Bad example - god has a much greater chance of existing).

The bottom line is this .... you can't expect anybody to respect your beliefs, and leave you to them, unless you're also willing to do the same with them and their beliefs.

They have the proof and evidence that THEY need to believe, so they do. You don't, so you don't. What's the problem?
 raxarsr
Joined: 7/10/2008
Msg: 4
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Strong and Logical Argument FOR The existence of Divine Beings
Posted: 6/18/2009 8:25:52 AM
well..........faith aside.....according to the laws of science as we understand them.........there has to be a superior being.....in my faith.its God

now.i know i'm going to take a lot of flack.....but here goes
science claims the universe wa started with a "big bang" or explosion........now.......explosions equal heat...[science doesnt dispute that the earth and everyhing else was .at one time...superheated..........its what caused the explosion]
so.here we are with a sterile planet, in a sterile universe.........and suddenly theres life?
where did it come from?
then theres the theory of evolution.........might work on paper...but in real life......just the opposite happens.....science has proven that it cant possibly work..........but they cant "prove" anything else.......so they hang onto it like a security blanket.

go ahread.fire away at me......my mind cant be changed..if you want to call my beliefs a fairy tale......so be it................but at least come up with anothey theory that at least isnt disproved by science
 RocketMan_Len
Joined: 7/5/2006
Msg: 5
Strong and Logical Argument FOR The existence of Divine Beings
Posted: 6/18/2009 8:39:56 AM
^^^^^

Please provide references for your claims that 'evolution doesn't work in real life'.

'Suddenly' is a relative term. Over the course of ten billion years, a couple million is nothing.

Sure, there was a LOT of heat in the early universe... but just like moss can grow on the surface of a cooled lump of charcoal, life can grow on the cooling remnants of the universe.

Abiogenesis IS still a mystery - but just because we don't understand how something happened, doesn't make it supernatural in origin. It just means that our knowledge is incomplete.

I'm sorry, sir... but you haven't provided anything to convince someone of the existence of a Divine Being. All you've done is attempt to cast doubt on established lines of evidence. (And not a very good attempt, at that... )
 aleon
Joined: 5/9/2004
Msg: 6
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Strong and Logical Argument FOR The existence of Divine Beings
Posted: 6/18/2009 8:45:26 AM
Well let me take a shot. A few years ago, as I was driving to work on a sunny mid afternoon, I had an experience that defies explanation without entering into a supernatural realm. The roadway was a four lane highway with a turning lane in the middle. I was behind an old Ford pickup on the inside southbound lane. I observed six vehicles heading northbound, pretty much side by side, when as clear as I can hear the radio, a voice said to me, "Watch that car". (I was physically alone in my car ). Now there were six cars heading towards me, but for some reason, I knew immediatly that it was the front car on the northbound inside lane the voice referred to. Upon laying my eyes on this car, it apppeared to be traveling okay. I could see the lady clearly. Both hands on the wheel, looking straight ahead, when suddenly she veared directly across the turn lane and did a head on with the truck in front of me. Had I not trusted instinctually the warning I had received, I would not have taken my foot off the gas and I would certainly have rear ended the truck after the initial collision. Due to the nature of the injuries the man in the truck received (double traumatic amputation of both legs below the knees, compund fractures in his left shoulder, and internal damage as well), the additional impact may have been enough to kill him. I too may have been injured, which, being an EMT, may have prevented me from performing first aid on the victims.
Clearly something or someone was on watch that day, and I dare say it was not Uncle Sam!!
Good question OP, and may I say God bless you.
 NurbyDriver
Joined: 7/30/2007
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Strong and Logical Argument FOR The existence of Divine Beings
Posted: 6/18/2009 9:04:37 AM
This is somewhat similar to the above post.

To me, you have to go back to when NOTHING existed and tell me where *something* came from. Even if you claim two little molecules struck each other causing the Big Bang, where, exactly, did those molecules come from?

Every evolutionary theory (and I want to emphasize *theory*) starts with an ocean full of organic material, what they don't, nor try, to explain is where that organic material came from.

So, go back to when there was nothing, void, and tell me where something, anything, came from, and we will have a starting point. To me if you can't do that, every other theory that dismisses a divine being falls apart.

It had to come from someplace, it didn't just always exist, because if it did, that sounds much like a God to me.
 aleon
Joined: 5/9/2004
Msg: 9
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Strong and Logical Argument FOR The existence of Divine Beings
Posted: 6/18/2009 10:14:08 AM
(notatowniegirl), your question is valid, however, I am a trained professional who has been involved with emergency services in some form or another for most of my life. Iam trained in the art of observing and reporting as well as reacting to dangerous situations. This does not make me above the errors you suggest, but it does make me as prepared for these events as one can try to make themselves. It should also be noted that immediatly upon completing my emergency response to the victims, I made as detailed a report as possible for my records, as I knew investigators would be talking to me. (No, I did not mention to them why my attention was directed to that particular car prior to the wreck).
BTW, intuition is caused by something that science has yet to explain, so by definition, at least at this point, intuition is supernatural.
 raxarsr
Joined: 7/10/2008
Msg: 11
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Strong and Logical Argument FOR The existence of Divine Beings
Posted: 6/18/2009 10:52:22 AM
well lillith....i have no idea where God came from.....thats where faith comes in

and to the poster who said moss grows on charcoal.......i'll gladly give you that....not a problem

now take that mossy lump of charcoal and place it in a vaccume.........hmmmmmmmm.....moss just died.....charcoal remains the same.

thats my point in my extremely simplified post...
the earth and universe..according to science...........started out in a super hot vaccume............so where did the spark of life come from?
like i said.... the laws of science.....AS WE KNOW THEM.........prove the big bang theory as impossible.

as far as evolution...........i had this discussion whih a guy who works for a seed company.........his work is developing newer and stronger strains of corn.
now......take his finest seed.............plant it in a field thats been carefully prepared.......fertilized......everything
ample rain is a given.....so are optimum growing conditions
the first season........harvest 1/2 the field...and measure your harvest
let the second half of the field go untouched for 10 years
harvest the second half
think the yield will be anywhere close to the first half?
how about the quality?



kinda evolution backwards isnt it?
 GeneralizingNow
Joined: 10/10/2007
Msg: 12
Strong and Logical Argument FOR The existence of Divine Beings
Posted: 6/18/2009 11:08:25 AM
For me, the question is sort of semantic, although many who believe in a "higher power" would say I'm crazy. They call it God, I call it Knowing.

Like one poster who said something about the "supernatural"--it's only "super" natural because we [humans] haven't figured it out yet. I think every once in a while a person comes along who can think so far outside the box that they can intuit a new thing--which, once it's explained or pointed out, everyone smacks themselves on their collective head and says, "Why didn't *I* see that? It's so obvious?!"

Wonderment is a human trait--we love the unknown, but we're also meaning-makers. If someone can't figure out the meaning, the injustice of having a child die, for instance, they take comfort in knowing some greater power knows things beyond what they know, and actually has a plan that involves bettering this poor child's existence.

'And now I see the face of god, and I raise this god over the earth, this god whom men have sought since men came into being, this god who will grant them joy and peace and pride. This god, this one word: "I." '
- Ayn Rand
 RocketMan_Len
Joined: 7/5/2006
Msg: 14
Strong and Logical Argument FOR The existence of Divine Beings
Posted: 6/18/2009 11:14:07 AM
@ raxarsr...


now take that mossy lump of charcoal and place it in a vaccume.........hmmmmmmmm.....moss just died.....charcoal remains the same.


I guess you didn't hear about the *living* bacteria that was found on the camera of the Surveyor lunar probe that Pete Conrad and Al Bean retrieved...?

As for the rest... during that ten years, the corn will have *competition* for the available resources. The yields won't be the same as a cultivated field, naturally... but the corn that survives will be hardier and more adapted to conditions.

Congratulations! You've just demonstrated that evolution WORKS.
 nipoleon
Joined: 12/27/2005
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Strong and Logical Argument FOR The existence of Divine Beings
Posted: 6/18/2009 11:35:18 AM
I can provide a good argument for the existence of higher beings but I can't say whether they are divine.

Consider a small caterpillar walking along your finger.
Does the caterpillar recognize you as a living human being, or just another surface it is walking on ?
Can the caterpillar conceive that the surface it is walking on is actually a small part of a much larger whole living creature ?

Consider the tiny creatures you may step on while walking in your front yard.
Do they have any idea that what stepped on them is actually a vast whole living creature with a whole other conception of life ? Can they possibly imagine that there is a whole other level of existence which includes music, art, politics, literature ?

Haven't you wondered if your pet dog conceives of the world in the complexity you do ? Doesn't your dog look at you like a superior being capable of wondrous things it can't do ? When your pet dog listens the stereo, do you wonder what it hears ?
Is it confused, and think to itself, " I know there's something there but I'm not sure what it is ".

It is obvious there are multiple levels of existence in the world.

There are certainly creatures which live their lives on a level smaller than ours.
Couldn't there be creatures which live on a level greater than ours ?
Couldn't what we consider the world, be nothing more than a small part of a vastly larger creature who's existence we can hardly imagine ?

It's certainly possible these creatures exist, at least theoretically.
Whether they are divine is a completely different question.
 GeneralizingNow
Joined: 10/10/2007
Msg: 17
Strong and Logical Argument FOR The existence of Divine Beings
Posted: 6/18/2009 12:17:17 PM

It's certainly possible these creatures exist, at least theoretically.

I find this statement puzzling, coming from you, Nips. In another thread you made fun of people who believe in extraterrestrial life [EL]. Or maybe I assigned motive when there was none in that other post? There, you were saying's how "atheists" often believe in EL but can't conceive why people believe in god. Isn't one based on probabality and one based on faith? I mean, we humans only know one plane of existence, so far.

I agree, though, it makes sense that there is other life that we don't yet comprehend. And that some people refer to it as God, making it divine since they have no other explanation. This is what I meant by Knowing--I believe it is possible, but I don't believe it is divine. I think there are many things that I, and even 4 generations later, other people, will just never know. And then I believe someone will come along and it will suddenly be very clear and explainable.

What I find sort of interesting is that people claim "supernatural" forces are at work, as if that's a real explanation. For example, if someone gets a "funny feeling" in a house and then attributes it to a past act--like, a murder-- there. Does it HAVE to be supernatural? Can't it be perfectly natural for humans to ken each other? So far, all we "know" is this plane--but it's not necessarily "supernatural". It could just be that we don't understand the nature/science of it YET.
 NotGorshkovAgain
Joined: 4/29/2009
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Strong and Logical Argument FOR The existence of Divine Beings
Posted: 6/18/2009 12:21:25 PM

Sacrilege! Repent sinner!

wtf do I know - I'm a Sens fan :-(
 NotGorshkovAgain
Joined: 4/29/2009
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Strong and Logical Argument FOR The existence of Divine Beings
Posted: 6/18/2009 12:27:50 PM

then theres the theory of evolution.........might work on paper...but in real life......just the opposite happens.....science has proven that it cant possibly work..........but they cant "prove" anything else.......so they hang onto it like a security blanket.

ummm ... so tell me - where do you think a different flu strain comes from every year? Where do you think antibiotic strains of desieses come from?

It's called evolution. It's around us, and we see if every day.

If you want to believe in god, that's fine - works for you, so go for it.

But one thing people here seem to keep forgetting it that is is not an either/or situation. Believing in one does not preclude the other.

@nurbydriver:

Every evolutionary theory (and I want to emphasize *theory*) starts with an ocean full of organic material, what they don't, nor try, to explain is where that organic material came from.


Well, that's not quite true. First - do you know what "organic" MEANS in chemestry?
The #1 definition from dictionary.com:

noting or pertaining to a class of chemical compounds that formerly comprised only those existing in or derived from plants or animals, but that now includes all other compounds of carbon.

Please note the reference to carbon. There is an entire field of chemistry devoted to just that - the study of carbon compounds. It's called organic chemistry.

There have been experiments over the last 10/15 years, trying to test exactly the thing that you say they don't even try to explain - where did these things come from in the first place?

In short form, they've re-created the conditions in the lab that are believed to have existed on earth at the time - heat, pressure, different combinations of elements, etc.

They have managed to track the creation of certain proteins that are the basis of RNA ..... which is the basis for DNA. I have no idea the current state of the research, but I'd bet my bottom dollar that they're refining the experiments as they get new results.
 NurbyDriver
Joined: 7/30/2007
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Strong and Logical Argument FOR The existence of Divine Beings
Posted: 6/18/2009 1:54:44 PM
I have to go back to my initial premise; There had to be a time when there was *nothing* and then in the next instant, there was *something*, (whatever that something was) prove to me how that something was placed there where there was nothing before.
 RocketMan_Len
Joined: 7/5/2006
Msg: 24
Strong and Logical Argument FOR The existence of Divine Beings
Posted: 6/18/2009 2:22:11 PM
@ mavcomart...

I went to the National Geographic website, and read BOTH articles about Darwin that were in that issue, plus watched the video of an interview with the author of the article you cited.

It says *nothing* about evolution 'not working in real life' - rather, it says that Darwin messed up one little detail... that traits are not inherited ONLY from parents, but are passed along a LONG string of ancestors.

Here's the ENTIRE paragraph...


Though modern genetics vindicates Darwin in all sorts of ways, it also turns the spotlight on his biggest mistake. Darwin's own ideas on the mechanism of inheritance were a mess—and wrong. He thought that an organism blended together a mixture of its parents' traits, and later in his life he began to believe it also passed on traits acquired during its lifetime. He never understood, as the humble Moravian monk Gregor Mendel did, that an organism isn't a blend of its two parents at all, but the composite result of lots and lots of individual traits passed down by its father and mother from their own parents, and their grandparents before them.


Like many others, you've fallen into the trap of 'Quote Mining'. To wit - take one statement out of context, and use it as evidence of your assertion.

Sorry - even the *author* of that article holds that evolution not only works, but that the case for it is stronger than ever.

Care to try again...?
 NurbyDriver
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Strong and Logical Argument FOR The existence of Divine Beings
Posted: 6/18/2009 3:23:43 PM

Getting a little off topic here...but I have to ask...are you confident in your knowledge of the natural world to make the statement that "something was placed there" before there was...well..there?
Because I'm not.
And I doubt that too many physicists would study matter and energy are either....

W/O a detailed understanding of how and energy work in every possible situation (which is almost impossible) there is,IMHO, no way that anybody can "tell" exactly how the universe was created.
Personally, I'd go for the Big Bang over seven days...or a turtle's back....or whatever theological description is presented.

Back to the subject at hand: Still awaiting strong and logical arguments.


I am confident enough to say that at some point there was nothing, a void, and now there is something here- the question is how did nothing become something? Even energy is something. Everything had to start someplace.

The only other possibility is that the universe has *just always been here* and I don't see how anyone could say that yet dismiss God's existence.

If you cannot go back to the absolute beginning, then every thing we think we know is nothing but theory and conjecture.

I think we all look at the vastness of the universe and wonder "where could all this have come from?" even the very space in which the galaxies and stars travel, how did it get here? Did space itself just always exist or was it too created?

Questions I doubt we will ever know the answers to with any certainty.
 raxarsr
Joined: 7/10/2008
Msg: 28
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Strong and Logical Argument FOR The existence of Divine Beings
Posted: 6/18/2009 3:28:20 PM
the laws of science say it was sterile.......such as........theres no life that can survive existance at as sustained tempeture over 500 degrees............[after all .....it took millions of years for the earth to cool and solidify.........the progress is still going on....as the earths core is still molten].......even the seeds of the jackpine tree...which need a forestfire to crack their outer shell so they can sprout, will die if put into a 350 degree oven for 5 or 6 hrs.

someone commented on the basic building blocks of life.....sure........man can combine the proper mix and amounts of the proper elements.........but try as much as possible.............he still cant spark life

as far as the flu arguement goes..............it doesnt matter what strain it is......its still the flu...................useing that arguement is like saying blonde parents who give birth to a brunette or redhead are proof of evolution

i dont have the answers.....and never claimed to...................i have answers that work for me.....if we share those beliefs...great....if not.........ahhhh well......

at least my answers i admit that you need faith and belief............not "facts" that have been disproven time and time again
 RocketMan_Len
Joined: 7/5/2006
Msg: 29
Strong and Logical Argument FOR The existence of Divine Beings
Posted: 6/18/2009 3:52:03 PM
And yet, you haven't produced any facts that HAVE been disproved - only ones that dishonest 'creation scientists' have attempted to cast into doubt by using debating tricks.

Have you ever seen documentaries detailing what biologists are calling 'extremophiles'...? Animals that are capable of thriving in the area around black-smoker vents in the deep ocean - where the water temperature can be as high as 500 degrees... *all the time*. In an environment that, by your own admission ought to be devoid of life, life THRIVES.

How long have researchers been attempting to reproduce the conditions of early life...? A few decades? And they've already reproduced the amino acids that were the first precursors of life. Given another century or two of experimentation, they may just spark that life.
 NotGorshkovAgain
Joined: 4/29/2009
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Strong and Logical Argument FOR The existence of Divine Beings
Posted: 6/18/2009 4:11:17 PM

This is a very thought provoking article and explains why his theory does not work in real life.
The DaVinci code was thought provoking, and so was Apocolypse Now. I'm not sure that that's a good basis for believing either of those stories, though.

Look - it's called DARWIN'S theory of evolution because he was the one who first postulated it. Darwin got some things wrong. But that's the beauty of the scientific method. You find something wrong, you figure out why it's wrong, design and conduct new experiments, and modify the theory based on the results.

Darwin's own ideas on the mechanism of inheritance were a mess - and wrong."

First - his ideas about the mechanism was wrong, yes. But the theory of EVOLUTION said nothing about HOW things were passed on. Darwin gave his best idea, which has subsequently been shown to be wrong - now we know about DNA.

But are you going to sit there and honestly claim that evolution doesn't work in real life because Darwin wasn't able divine the existence of DNA?

Animal Husbandry. New flu strains every year. Antibiotic-resistant disease strains. Everything Monsanto does with crops. Animals and plants in the Ukraine showing changes that enables them to live and survive in heavy radiation areas around Chernobyl.

We are surrounded by examples of evolution every day. We take advantage of evolution - we have all through history - with selective breeding of livestock, plants, etc.

To say that evolution doesn't work in real life is specious .. and until you (or science) comes up with an explanation that fits all known facts better than what evolution does, I'll be going with it.
 RocketMan_Len
Joined: 7/5/2006
Msg: 32
Strong and Logical Argument FOR The existence of Divine Beings
Posted: 6/18/2009 6:58:58 PM
On that point, I'll agree with you. It *did* provide some interesting information about the entire voyage of Darwin... rather than just his Galapagos visit.

For that, thank you for making me look it up.
 Double Cabin
Joined: 11/29/2004
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Strong and Logical Argument FOR The existence of Divine Beings
Posted: 6/22/2009 8:13:35 PM
In the divine sense faith is irrational. "God" as we know "it" is an institution of man. The OP knows he asked a self serving rhetorical question. He got some of us to put forth popular but entirely unsubstantiated assertions. I think he got what he wanted.

I am not a man of faith. I abhore any attempts at theocratic imposition in our Constitutional Republic. I have however known great people of faith that have done great works. WQe could talk about the history of the compilation of the Bible and insult more of us. I'd rather simply like to thank all people of faith for their great works, and to be great a work there of course can't be any kind of missionary or impositionist kenning in it at all. Not every Christian embraces the central arrogance that men interjected into Christianity.
 RocketMan_Len
Joined: 7/5/2006
Msg: 40
Strong and Logical Argument FOR The existence of Divine Beings
Posted: 6/23/2009 9:07:45 AM
@ stratdigger21...


Are you a believer in frankenstien or something? Geesh . . how people believe this stuff is beyond me.


And yet... you find it MORE credible to think that humanity was produced *en toto* by having a mystical being blow on a clay figurine...?
 RocketMan_Len
Joined: 7/5/2006
Msg: 44
Strong and Logical Argument FOR The existence of Divine Beings
Posted: 6/23/2009 3:52:55 PM
Actually, Phantom, I was referring in my *original* message to the approximate age of the universe. After all, the Earth itself would not exist if not for the first-generation stars fusing hydrogen into the heavier elements... which are necessary for both the planet to form as well as life-forming compounds.

(Just to clarify... )
 wvwaterfall
Joined: 1/17/2007
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Strong and Logical Argument FOR The existence of Divine Beings
Posted: 6/24/2009 12:25:44 AM


They have the proof and evidence that THEY need to believe, so they do. You don't, so you don't. What's the problem?


Because they aren't content to keep their beliefs to themselves, and use their religion to influence the rest of society. In effect, they are telling the rest of us that we should we should live our lives through THEIR moral code, while not providing any evidence as to why we should. Citing "god's will" isn't exactly "proof" unless they can prove he/she/it exists in the first place.


Ah, then the correct request is not "prove that God exists" but rather "explain why your faith justifies trying to impose it on others", an entirely different request, and probably one for another thread.

My take is this:

There is only so much we can explain, because each of us is limited to the sum of our own perceptions.

We're inquisitive creatures, and seek explanations for what we do not understand. That's a good thing.

Thus evolved science, also a good thing, through which we have explained much, with much more yet to figure out.

Thus also evolved faith in a higher power or powers, which can also be a good thing, depending on how it is applied.

We're left with a variety of explanations for that which we cannot easily understand. Some involve science, some faith, some both. That diversity and our continued effort to better understand all that we perceive is, in general, a good thing, except when it leads to proponents of one trying to impose their perspective on others, rather than simply trying to recruit others to their point of view or better yet accepting the legitimacy of diverse perspectives without feeling the need to pass judgment.

Like many, I sense that there is more 'out there' than I can make sense of with my five senses. My gut tells me I'm not capable of understanding it within the constraints of my physical ability to perceive. So I respond by using meditation to tap into what seems to me to be a universal source of guidance and healing. I don't personally think of that source as "God", but do find my practices to be quite spiritual. I don't feel the need to impose my perspective on others, nor do I reject other spiritual interpretations, or feel the need for "proof" of the legitimacy of my own or other beliefs and practices.

I trust myself and others to find the path that works best for each of us individually. I'm glad we don't all take the same path. We're a much richer species as a result.

Dave
 no_excuses_please
Joined: 6/28/2009
Msg: 47
Strong and Logical Argument FOR The existence of Divine Beings
Posted: 7/9/2009 8:16:15 AM
^^^^
I don't remember any "loony atheists" shooting abortion doctors or crashing airplanes into buildings.
That brand of lunacy seems to be the sole province of the religious.
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