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Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > Nietsche: Morality devoid of Divinity. (A thinking man's thread)      Home login  
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 Riki19
Joined: 4/25/2009
Msg: 1
Nietsche: Morality devoid of Divinity. (A thinking man's thread)Page 1 of 4    (1, 2, 3, 4)
Let's talk.

Friedrich Nietzsche: The man who saw the future? Yes or No and Why....

I feel that, in light of the evolution of man - evidenced in the fossil record and new anthro-biological research, that Nietzsche's views (Especially his declaration of the death of God, and what that meant for mankind) are more applicable in our time than his.

Comments....
 Time4truth
Joined: 7/8/2009
Msg: 2
Nietsche: Morality devoid of Divinity. (A thinking man's thread)
Posted: 7/19/2009 9:11:30 PM
Morality is devoid of Divinity. In essence the mighty make the rules. This invalidates ones sense of rights by any notion of gift. If you can't keep what you have, you don't own it. The only equilibrium of righteousness is that you have become therefore you are. The notion of rights is inalienable in the construct of birth. The fact that you have become is the concrete reality of being righteously parallel to any other entity. Denying ones righteous existence is the selfish pursuit of competing entities. This is a natural consequence of selfishness. It now becomes the reflex of the denied to counter the competitor’s pursuits. If longevity is desired the actions are justified. It is the actions that determine the consequences. The consequences will affect longevity. Morality is dictated by the onus of the dispenser. The dispenser is susceptible to challenge by all entities.
 Riki19
Joined: 4/25/2009
Msg: 3
Nietsche: Morality devoid of Divinity. (A thinking man's thread)
Posted: 7/19/2009 9:43:24 PM
Ah! The king of the hill approach! But, is this beyond good and evil, or merely beside it? We all strive to be our own gods, but what becomes of society? Capitalism? Communisim (by comprimise)? Socialism?
 divagreen
Joined: 9/26/2008
Msg: 4
Nietsche: Morality devoid of Divinity. (A thinking man's thread)
Posted: 7/19/2009 9:50:23 PM
Kali Yuga times...there is a school of thought that we are not from caveman's time, but heading towards it...
 Riki19
Joined: 4/25/2009
Msg: 5
Nietsche: Morality devoid of Divinity. (A thinking man's thread)
Posted: 7/19/2009 10:06:28 PM
No. I think were making progress. It's just real slow. The religious right keeps getting in the way. Keep in mind, I'm not anti-religion, just anti-reactionism.

EG. The murder of socrates; imprisoment of galileo; witch burnings, The paupacy's failure to deny racism an evil ( early 1900's); and now the whole suppression of evolution and stem-cell thingy.

But, anyway, back to Nietzsche...

Has anyone read Nietzsche?
 60to70
Joined: 7/28/2008
Msg: 6
Nietsche: Morality devoid of Divinity. (A thinking man's thread)
Posted: 7/19/2009 10:30:36 PM
Yes, I did. But I have read so much that what I remember the most from F.N. is that it is not the big things in life that kill you...it is the shoelace that comes undone ONE MORE TIME and that whatever doesn't kill you only makes you stronger. And that, with heavy heart I note this, he died insane. I wish I could have soothed this man.
 monalee1
Joined: 10/22/2007
Msg: 7
Nietsche: Morality devoid of Divinity. (A thinking man's thread)
Posted: 7/19/2009 10:37:05 PM
hi... religion can be blamed for everything yet when a plane went down in the Andes some ate the dead to survive and others could not... embryotic stemcell therapy, some would, some wouldnt.... if every cell in your body cries out for or against something how do you get past that... well you don't, you answer the cry because ignoring it would be worse than persecution or even death... mankind is either motivated or crippled by fears... God is not dead, millions of us still have a Healthy Fear of Him .............. Trust + Obedience = Morality.... many blessings, warmly Mona
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 8
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Nietsche: Morality devoid of Divinity. (A thinking man's thread)
Posted: 7/20/2009 5:16:38 AM

No. I think were making progress. It's just real slow. The religious right keeps getting in the way. Keep in mind, I'm not anti-religion, just anti-reactionism.

EG. The murder of socrates; imprisoment of galileo; witch burnings, The paupacy's failure to deny racism an evil ( early 1900's); and now the whole suppression of evolution and stem-cell thingy.
Socrates wasn't murdered because he questioned religion. Socrates was murdered because he QUESTIONED. His death led to the adoption of Plato's method of deciding policy, which has a direct relevance to today. The reactionaries declare everyone else as evil anti-reactionaries, who have to be "purged".

Friedrich Nietzsche: The man who saw the future? Yes or No and Why....

I feel that, in light of the evolution of man - evidenced in the fossil record and new anthro-biological research, that Nietzsche's views (Especially his declaration of the death of God, and what that meant for mankind) are more applicable in our time than his.
To some extent. But to be honest, his views were far more applicable in his time than ours. It's just that in light of his writings, everyone has changed their propaganda to claim that Nietzsche agrees with him. Mind you, I think that Nietzsche said that anyway, that people just twist the truth to suit themselves, and especially in politics, but also in daily life.

Also, Nietzsche didn't so much say that god was dead, but rather, that we killed him. It's a bit like saying that Direct Current, or Betamax, or 8-track tapes, are dead. They aren't dead. But our society generated a huge amount of propaganda to wipe them from people's memory. It reminds me of 1984, when every time the wars change, all the history books were re-written as well, to make out that things were always this way. It also reminds me of Fahrenheit 451, because we discourage personal learning, and enocurage mindless entertainment, to stop people remembering that things weren't always this way, and in the past, people were very different.

What I believe, is that much of what Nietzsche was really saying, was that humankind has a great propensity to claim that it is on the side of right, and that it therefore should "help" everyone, by stamping out any ideology that opposed it. In his day, there seemed to be a rise of Nationalists, what we call "patriots", who were calling for everyone else to toe the line of nationalism, by force if necessary, and there was a huge Enlightenment movement, people who were calling for everyone else to toe the line of science, by force if necessary. But, upon examination, these groups would not promote all nationalism, only their nationalism against other's nationalism, and they would not promote all science, but would only promote their science, and try to wipe out other people's science, like when the French, who spearheaded the Enlightenment movement, started burning all the scientific manuscripts of Timbuktu, that showed that the French and the West were only just discovering much that was well-known in Africa hundreds of years before. Nietzsche saw that these groups used selection in what they chose to pay attention to, and that their choices of selection, in what they chose to promote, and what they chose to ignore, and what they chose to attack, was easily determined by whether or not that particular thing would help them in their pursuit of power and self-interest, or not. If it helped their interests, they promoted it. If it weakened their interests, then they attacked it. If it had no effect one way or the other, they would simply ignore it. They only cared about themselves, and what we call knowledge, was just a way to make that happen.

If you like, you can sum up Nietzsche's ideas about the Will to Truth, as "history is written by the winners". Only Nietzsche realised that ALL knowledge was history in this regard, especially the current knowledge we have, especially our knowledge.

That's my personal view.
 O.B.I
Joined: 6/20/2009
Msg: 9
Nietsche: Morality devoid of Divinity. (A thinking man's thread)
Posted: 7/20/2009 5:23:40 AM

Nietzsche


What's with the hard-on for Hitler's muse around here? It seems that every thread on this board contains a post that refers to Nietzsche in some capacity.

Personally I'm only familiar with 'God Is Dead', a philosophy (or "prophecy") with which I partially disagree.

I much prefer to engage with philosophical concepts independently than discover them through second-hand sources. In order to think outside the box one must first step outside it and rid oneself of their depency on its comforts.
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 10
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Nietsche: Morality devoid of Divinity. (A thinking man's thread)
Posted: 7/20/2009 5:34:54 AM
RE Msg: 9 by O.B.I:
I much prefer to engage with philosophical concepts independently than discover them through second-hand sources. In order to think outside the box one must first step outside it and rid oneself of their depency on its comforts.
I find I agree highly with this. I am happy to learn from any source, and it really matters not that much to me where it comes from, as long as we question it, no different than if someone proposed this. But you are entirely right, that we should not limit ourselves to only thinking that comes out of sources. We need to be open to new ideas.

I find it quite interesting that though you describe yourself as part of the "Un-Faithful", that I find myself in massive agreement with much that you write. You restore my old faith that there are atheists who can show reason and respect to those who do not share their views, and yet be strong in their own views. Not being toady. Just genuinely being honest that it makes me feel good to know this.
 NoBushLover
Joined: 1/27/2009
Msg: 11
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Nietsche: Morality devoid of Divinity. (A thinking man's thread)
Posted: 7/20/2009 6:11:07 AM

What's with the hard-on for Hitler's muse around here? It seems that every thread on this board contains a post that refers to Nietzsche in some capacity.


It has to do with all the rightwingers on this board. They love the syphilitic madman.
 O.B.I
Joined: 6/20/2009
Msg: 12
Nietsche: Morality devoid of Divinity. (A thinking man's thread)
Posted: 7/20/2009 6:55:21 AM
But you are entirely right, that we should not limit ourselves to only thinking that comes out of sources. We need to be open to new ideas.


Exactly! I've met many people (particularly scientific thinkers) in recent years who have found conversing with me incredibly frustrating when we arrive at discussing abstract concepts. Now this may well be due to a lack of clarity in my communication, but you can't qualify ideas (Art) like you can results (Science). A recited quotation merely provides structure to an idea. Many fear the inherent chaos of the abstract and therefore will not accept an idea unless it has been structured, developed and presented as factual knowledge by a publicly-recognised interpreter.

It's like you wrote earlier about societies repressing or destroying those who dared to question accepted fact. The truth is that 'liberalism' in contemporary Western society is a complete farce. Imagination is being discouraged for the sake of intellectual uniformity. Take the following article posted today on Guardian.co.uk, accusing the Harry Potter franchise of "infantilising the world":

[url]http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/filmblog/2009/jul/20/harry-potter-infantilising-the-world[/url]

Although Cox is probably getting paid about £500 for writing that article (if the rate is still '1 word = £1', and he's not on a fixed salary), his readers appear to be far smarter and worthier of that payment than he is, judging from the comments.


I find it quite interesting that though you describe yourself as part of the "Un-Faithful", that I find myself in massive agreement with much that you write.


I wouldn't say I was "Un-Faithful". I'm imaginative to the point that many people would say I was deluded (my ambition in life is sure to incite a chuckle or three, so I tend to keep it to myself), and I subscribe to a faith of my own design that is structured around abstract philosophical concepts, independent of both first and second-hand knowledge.

While our perspectives may differ (Faithful/Un-Faithful), we are both bound by the fundamental principles that form the bases of our respective outlooks. This is why I believe, as I said before, that to end the great debate is to expose the underlying unity of all schools of thought.

It's the "Us and Them" attitude that is killing God. Not too long ago I saw a billboard in Coventry that simply read "God is One, God is All, All is One". I'm sure you'll recognise its profundity, and I'm glad there are are others out there who identify the need for intellectual unification; I certainly don't view you as a sycophant :-).


It has to do with all the rightwingers on this board. They love the syphilitic madman.


Forget Swine Flu! Perhaps we're looking at an imminent Syphilis outbreak?! Damn those smart-arses and their rotten privates!
 NoBushLover
Joined: 1/27/2009
Msg: 13
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Nietsche: Morality devoid of Divinity. (A thinking man's thread)
Posted: 7/20/2009 8:17:27 AM

Forget Swine Flu! Perhaps we're looking at an imminent Syphilis outbreak?! Damn those smart-arses and their rotten privates!


Well, if they keep having sex in the public restrooms of international airports, there's no telling what horrible diseases their sick perversions will lead to.
 parrothead 13
Joined: 10/21/2007
Msg: 14
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Nietsche: Morality devoid of Divinity. (A thinking man's thread)
Posted: 7/20/2009 10:35:39 AM
Thinking is wonderful, its a way to understand things and quantify them. It fixes what is broke in the mechanical world. Believing, faith in the goodness of some universal power often makes life worth living, particularly for the downtrodden, the grieving and the ill. If God, or the represenative for universal goodness, is indeed dead where do the grieving and the downtrodden go for comfort in a world that does not care?
 Riki19
Joined: 4/25/2009
Msg: 15
Nietsche: Morality devoid of Divinity. (A thinking man's thread)
Posted: 7/20/2009 7:46:55 PM

What's with the hard-on for Hitler's muse around here?


Because the Nazis appropriated the writings of Nietzshe (after they were edited by his sister) does NOT mean that Nietzsche in ANY way saw the world as hitler did. Nietsche's Uber Mensche was used in a way that the author NEVER intended, although, he wouldn't disagree. After all, he was a nihilist.

Keep in mind, Nietzsche DESPISED nationalism and Hitler was its poster child.
 :
Joined: 4/15/2005
Msg: 16
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Nietsche: Morality devoid of Divinity. (A thinking man's thread)
Posted: 7/20/2009 8:47:31 PM
My favorite is thus spoke Zarathustra for some reason, but you have to love genealogy of morals...

I feel for me much of his work is focused towards a deep love and sympathy for the human condition, with a resounding affirmation that there is the potential for a progress for us all should we chose to seek it.

And at the same time i want to suggest that though he criticizes the idea of an objective truth there is also a distinct yearning to find one.

I find it so touching the way he lost his mind in the end, over a man beating a horse; in Zarathustra near the end there is this great picture drawn of man moving forward into the future in peace with all the creatures of the earth and sky.

It is a pity and an abuse of his intent and his rich symbolism, that so many have transformed his works into something devoid of morality, it is a mistake to get lost in the subjectivism of morality, and worse to use his work to do so; especially when really his criticism is with the lack of morality in structures that purport to be authorities of such matters.
 Riki19
Joined: 4/25/2009
Msg: 17
Nietsche: Morality devoid of Divinity. (A thinking man's thread)
Posted: 7/20/2009 10:07:59 PM

I feel for me much of his work is focused towards a deep love and sympathy for the human condition, with a resounding affirmation that there is the potential for a progress for us all should we chose to seek it.


Indeed! You see as I do. As Zarathustra was among the rabble, Nietzsche was among men ! And Lo! He was an angel all along.


"Then thou carriedst thine ashes into the mountains:
wilt thou now carry thy fire into the valleys?"



Thus Spake Zarathustra
Friedrich Nietzsche

He brought his fire, but the flame was too hot for cold ears.
 vanaheim
Joined: 6/6/2009
Msg: 18
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Nietsche: Morality devoid of Divinity. (A thinking man's thread)
Posted: 7/20/2009 10:34:40 PM
I'm sorry, I read Nietzsche decades ago and saw nothing more than a very, very spiteful man. I understand his reasons had to do with personal background and behaviour (drug addiction among other things).

Articulation should never be confused with having something productive to say. Certainly people with less articulation or less to talk about may find it fascinating in any case. I never did.

Even his only memorable quote (he who stares long into the abyss..) is little more than pure and wholesome self infatuation, plainly.
He is an epitomised narcissist blowing hot air.

And Hitler's favourite author.
 chrono1985
Joined: 11/20/2004
Msg: 19
Nietsche: Morality devoid of Divinity. (A thinking man's thread)
Posted: 7/20/2009 11:11:36 PM

Trust + Obedience = Morality

I am sorry but any respect for your opinions you may have had from me is now shattered to pieces. As a fellow human being I can not respect or support anyone's opinions when their morals are just a matter of the lemmings effect in action.
 dalane75
Joined: 3/20/2009
Msg: 20
Nietsche: Morality devoid of Divinity. (A thinking man's thread)
Posted: 7/20/2009 11:59:51 PM

In essence the mighty make the rules. This invalidates ones sense of rights by any notion of gift. If you can't keep what you have, you don't own it. The only equilibrium of righteousness is that you have become therefore you are. The notion of rights is inalienable in the construct of birth.



There are those of us who hear the music and listen and those that feel the music and react.

We forget so easily how the will to power and the eternal reoccurence of the same is There are those of us who hear the music and listen and those that feel the music and react.

We forget so easily how the will to power and the eternal reoccurrence of the same is intimately tied to and evolved from passion and reason; from the sacrificed and the crucified. Heidegger argued from his interpretation of Nietzsche that the confrontation of the self and its solvability similarly to yours which is the relationship of being and becoming. However, I find it more relevant to place the human experience within the realm of solitude in its relation to those characteristics…for we are alone.

Nietzsche expressed the idea that we are bound to our self and ought to explore those boundaries (which is why he is NOT a nihilist). The boundaries exist within this Dionysian and Apollonian (passion and reason) relationship that is found within all humans. Here we find the will to power and the eternal recurrence of the same. Within that relationship we find not being and becoming, but desire and reason. That is the wealth of Nietzsche...and it is one of the greatest treasure troves ever offered to the likes of humanity and whose insights provide a basis of study, research, and theory today.

His philosophy was not for the ears of his peers during his time because he knew more study, research, and theory were needed. Where was relativity, the unconscious, the unessentializing theories of person during his time? No, we did not grow...only our courage.
 dalane75
Joined: 3/20/2009
Msg: 21
Nietsche: Morality devoid of Divinity. (A thinking man's thread)
Posted: 7/21/2009 12:02:08 AM
We forget so easily how the will to power and the eternal reoccurence of the same is There are those of us who hear the music and listen and those that feel the music and react---please forget that lin
 dalane75
Joined: 3/20/2009
Msg: 22
Nietsche: Morality devoid of Divinity. (A thinking man's thread)
Posted: 7/21/2009 12:04:47 AM
I should also say that I do not feel comfortable defining the Dionysian and the Applonian as deisre and reason.
 O.B.I
Joined: 6/20/2009
Msg: 23
Nietsche: Morality devoid of Divinity. (A thinking man's thread)
Posted: 7/21/2009 4:49:50 AM
Because the Nazis appropriated the writings of Nietzshe (after they were edited by his sister) does NOT mean that Nietzsche in ANY way saw the world as hitler did.


I was kiddin' ;-)


I understand his reasons had to do with personal background and behaviour (drug addiction among other things).


I'm sick to death of hearing this from writers and supposed "intellectuals". This isn't an attack against you, Vanaheim; I'm referring to the "Artists".

Interviewer: What initially inspired the formulation of your philosophy/ novel?

"Artist": Well, back when I was hooked on LSD...

It seems as though many are mistakenly regarded as "prophets" because they've been narcotically elevated to "a kaleidoscopic plane of enlightenment". If you're taking drugs in the first place then that's a good indication that something's missing. Then there are the long-term effects which (especially in Nietzsche's case) gradually render your "prophecies" meaningless.


Articulation should never be confused with having something productive to say. Certainly people with less articulation or less to talk about may find it fascinating in any case. I never did.


Hear, hear! A friend of mine accused H.P. Lovecraft of this recently: writing a sentence, then immediately re-wording and repeating it. It's funny how something as mainstream as 'Harry Potter' is often far more intelligent and profound than the latest Booker Prizewinner.

Which leads me on to...


I should also say that I do not feel comfortable defining the Dionysian and the Applonian as deisre and reason.


This is my problem with contemporary philosophy, as I suggested before. Too many arcane terms that require one to deviate from study to seek the knowledge required to comprehend what is actually fairly simple, in principle. I want the no-frills nitty gritty; I'll take 'Tesco Value Chocolate Digestives' over 'McVitties'' any day!

And people wonder why philosophy hasn't caught-on in the mainstream yet...
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 24
Nietsche: Morality devoid of Divinity. (A thinking man's thread)
Posted: 7/21/2009 6:54:41 AM

If you can't keep what you have, you don't own it

Setting aside for the moment the erroneous idea that we "own" anything at all (but rather stake claims to things, either with agreement, or by force), the quoted statement, if true, destroys the concept of law and justice altogether, yet we have laws (enforced by the supposedly destroyed concept of justice) by which we (generally) abide. The existence of the concept of justice (whether or not it is enforceable) invalidates the claim of right by might.

Nature is by nature, unfair and arbitrary, or unjust. There is no justice in nature, but that does not mean that natural justice doesn't exist (it is an abstract, man-made concept that might even be coded into our genes as an evolutionary adaptation). Acting unfairly because one can do so, in no way implies that one is right to do so. Therefore the claim of right by might is not a legitimate claim.

That justice is not done does not imply that it doesn't exist. Similarly, any author's statements about the de facto reality of "right by might" don't imply in themselves a belief that that's the way it ought to be.
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 25
Nietsche: Morality devoid of Divinity. (A thinking man's thread)
Posted: 7/21/2009 7:05:10 AM

What's with the hard-on for Hitler's muse around here?


I'm sick to death of people dropping the names of tyrants to imply that any similarity to their predispositions makes one like the tyrant. This has been done (with Hitler in particular) so often there is even a name for the logical fallacy: "reductio ad Hitlerum."

Are some of the people on this thread so dense that they'd expect anybody with more than half a brain to fall for it? If so, they have far less than half a brain in trying to employ it!

I hear Steven Harper likes his eggs over easy -- My God!!! I must be a stupid fascist traitor because I like mine that way too!!!

Gimme a break!
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