Plentyoffish dating forums are a place to meet singles and get dating advice or share dating experiences etc. Hopefully you will all have fun meeting singles and try out this online dating thing... Remember that we are the largest free online dating service, so you will never have to pay a dime to meet your soulmate.
     
Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > Nietsche: Morality devoid of Divinity. (A thinking man's thread)      Home login  
 AUTHOR
 Riki19
Joined: 4/25/2009
Msg: 1
Nietsche: Morality devoid of Divinity. (A thinking man's thread)Page 1 of 4    (1, 2, 3, 4)
Let's talk.

Friedrich Nietzsche: The man who saw the future? Yes or No and Why....

I feel that, in light of the evolution of man - evidenced in the fossil record and new anthro-biological research, that Nietzsche's views (Especially his declaration of the death of God, and what that meant for mankind) are more applicable in our time than his.

Comments....
 Time4truth
Joined: 7/8/2009
Msg: 2
Nietsche: Morality devoid of Divinity. (A thinking man's thread)
Posted: 7/19/2009 9:11:30 PM
Morality is devoid of Divinity. In essence the mighty make the rules. This invalidates ones sense of rights by any notion of gift. If you can't keep what you have, you don't own it. The only equilibrium of righteousness is that you have become therefore you are. The notion of rights is inalienable in the construct of birth. The fact that you have become is the concrete reality of being righteously parallel to any other entity. Denying ones righteous existence is the selfish pursuit of competing entities. This is a natural consequence of selfishness. It now becomes the reflex of the denied to counter the competitor’s pursuits. If longevity is desired the actions are justified. It is the actions that determine the consequences. The consequences will affect longevity. Morality is dictated by the onus of the dispenser. The dispenser is susceptible to challenge by all entities.
 Riki19
Joined: 4/25/2009
Msg: 3
Nietsche: Morality devoid of Divinity. (A thinking man's thread)
Posted: 7/19/2009 9:43:24 PM
Ah! The king of the hill approach! But, is this beyond good and evil, or merely beside it? We all strive to be our own gods, but what becomes of society? Capitalism? Communisim (by comprimise)? Socialism?
 divagreen
Joined: 9/26/2008
Msg: 4
Nietsche: Morality devoid of Divinity. (A thinking man's thread)
Posted: 7/19/2009 9:50:23 PM
Kali Yuga times...there is a school of thought that we are not from caveman's time, but heading towards it...
 Riki19
Joined: 4/25/2009
Msg: 5
Nietsche: Morality devoid of Divinity. (A thinking man's thread)
Posted: 7/19/2009 10:06:28 PM
No. I think were making progress. It's just real slow. The religious right keeps getting in the way. Keep in mind, I'm not anti-religion, just anti-reactionism.

EG. The murder of socrates; imprisoment of galileo; witch burnings, The paupacy's failure to deny racism an evil ( early 1900's); and now the whole suppression of evolution and stem-cell thingy.

But, anyway, back to Nietzsche...

Has anyone read Nietzsche?
 60to70
Joined: 7/28/2008
Msg: 6
Nietsche: Morality devoid of Divinity. (A thinking man's thread)
Posted: 7/19/2009 10:30:36 PM
Yes, I did. But I have read so much that what I remember the most from F.N. is that it is not the big things in life that kill you...it is the shoelace that comes undone ONE MORE TIME and that whatever doesn't kill you only makes you stronger. And that, with heavy heart I note this, he died insane. I wish I could have soothed this man.
 monalee1
Joined: 10/22/2007
Msg: 7
Nietsche: Morality devoid of Divinity. (A thinking man's thread)
Posted: 7/19/2009 10:37:05 PM
hi... religion can be blamed for everything yet when a plane went down in the Andes some ate the dead to survive and others could not... embryotic stemcell therapy, some would, some wouldnt.... if every cell in your body cries out for or against something how do you get past that... well you don't, you answer the cry because ignoring it would be worse than persecution or even death... mankind is either motivated or crippled by fears... God is not dead, millions of us still have a Healthy Fear of Him .............. Trust + Obedience = Morality.... many blessings, warmly Mona
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 8
view profile
History
Nietsche: Morality devoid of Divinity. (A thinking man's thread)
Posted: 7/20/2009 5:16:38 AM

No. I think were making progress. It's just real slow. The religious right keeps getting in the way. Keep in mind, I'm not anti-religion, just anti-reactionism.

EG. The murder of socrates; imprisoment of galileo; witch burnings, The paupacy's failure to deny racism an evil ( early 1900's); and now the whole suppression of evolution and stem-cell thingy.
Socrates wasn't murdered because he questioned religion. Socrates was murdered because he QUESTIONED. His death led to the adoption of Plato's method of deciding policy, which has a direct relevance to today. The reactionaries declare everyone else as evil anti-reactionaries, who have to be "purged".

Friedrich Nietzsche: The man who saw the future? Yes or No and Why....

I feel that, in light of the evolution of man - evidenced in the fossil record and new anthro-biological research, that Nietzsche's views (Especially his declaration of the death of God, and what that meant for mankind) are more applicable in our time than his.
To some extent. But to be honest, his views were far more applicable in his time than ours. It's just that in light of his writings, everyone has changed their propaganda to claim that Nietzsche agrees with him. Mind you, I think that Nietzsche said that anyway, that people just twist the truth to suit themselves, and especially in politics, but also in daily life.

Also, Nietzsche didn't so much say that god was dead, but rather, that we killed him. It's a bit like saying that Direct Current, or Betamax, or 8-track tapes, are dead. They aren't dead. But our society generated a huge amount of propaganda to wipe them from people's memory. It reminds me of 1984, when every time the wars change, all the history books were re-written as well, to make out that things were always this way. It also reminds me of Fahrenheit 451, because we discourage personal learning, and enocurage mindless entertainment, to stop people remembering that things weren't always this way, and in the past, people were very different.

What I believe, is that much of what Nietzsche was really saying, was that humankind has a great propensity to claim that it is on the side of right, and that it therefore should "help" everyone, by stamping out any ideology that opposed it. In his day, there seemed to be a rise of Nationalists, what we call "patriots", who were calling for everyone else to toe the line of nationalism, by force if necessary, and there was a huge Enlightenment movement, people who were calling for everyone else to toe the line of science, by force if necessary. But, upon examination, these groups would not promote all nationalism, only their nationalism against other's nationalism, and they would not promote all science, but would only promote their science, and try to wipe out other people's science, like when the French, who spearheaded the Enlightenment movement, started burning all the scientific manuscripts of Timbuktu, that showed that the French and the West were only just discovering much that was well-known in Africa hundreds of years before. Nietzsche saw that these groups used selection in what they chose to pay attention to, and that their choices of selection, in what they chose to promote, and what they chose to ignore, and what they chose to attack, was easily determined by whether or not that particular thing would help them in their pursuit of power and self-interest, or not. If it helped their interests, they promoted it. If it weakened their interests, then they attacked it. If it had no effect one way or the other, they would simply ignore it. They only cared about themselves, and what we call knowledge, was just a way to make that happen.

If you like, you can sum up Nietzsche's ideas about the Will to Truth, as "history is written by the winners". Only Nietzsche realised that ALL knowledge was history in this regard, especially the current knowledge we have, especially our knowledge.

That's my personal view.
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 9
view profile
History
Nietsche: Morality devoid of Divinity. (A thinking man's thread)
Posted: 7/20/2009 5:34:54 AM
RE Msg: 9 by O.B.I:
I much prefer to engage with philosophical concepts independently than discover them through second-hand sources. In order to think outside the box one must first step outside it and rid oneself of their depency on its comforts.
I find I agree highly with this. I am happy to learn from any source, and it really matters not that much to me where it comes from, as long as we question it, no different than if someone proposed this. But you are entirely right, that we should not limit ourselves to only thinking that comes out of sources. We need to be open to new ideas.

I find it quite interesting that though you describe yourself as part of the "Un-Faithful", that I find myself in massive agreement with much that you write. You restore my old faith that there are atheists who can show reason and respect to those who do not share their views, and yet be strong in their own views. Not being toady. Just genuinely being honest that it makes me feel good to know this.
 Riki19
Joined: 4/25/2009
Msg: 10
Nietsche: Morality devoid of Divinity. (A thinking man's thread)
Posted: 7/20/2009 7:46:55 PM

What's with the hard-on for Hitler's muse around here?


Because the Nazis appropriated the writings of Nietzshe (after they were edited by his sister) does NOT mean that Nietzsche in ANY way saw the world as hitler did. Nietsche's Uber Mensche was used in a way that the author NEVER intended, although, he wouldn't disagree. After all, he was a nihilist.

Keep in mind, Nietzsche DESPISED nationalism and Hitler was its poster child.
 :
Joined: 4/15/2005
Msg: 11
view profile
History
Nietsche: Morality devoid of Divinity. (A thinking man's thread)
Posted: 7/20/2009 8:47:31 PM
My favorite is thus spoke Zarathustra for some reason, but you have to love genealogy of morals...

I feel for me much of his work is focused towards a deep love and sympathy for the human condition, with a resounding affirmation that there is the potential for a progress for us all should we chose to seek it.

And at the same time i want to suggest that though he criticizes the idea of an objective truth there is also a distinct yearning to find one.

I find it so touching the way he lost his mind in the end, over a man beating a horse; in Zarathustra near the end there is this great picture drawn of man moving forward into the future in peace with all the creatures of the earth and sky.

It is a pity and an abuse of his intent and his rich symbolism, that so many have transformed his works into something devoid of morality, it is a mistake to get lost in the subjectivism of morality, and worse to use his work to do so; especially when really his criticism is with the lack of morality in structures that purport to be authorities of such matters.
 Riki19
Joined: 4/25/2009
Msg: 12
Nietsche: Morality devoid of Divinity. (A thinking man's thread)
Posted: 7/20/2009 10:07:59 PM

I feel for me much of his work is focused towards a deep love and sympathy for the human condition, with a resounding affirmation that there is the potential for a progress for us all should we chose to seek it.


Indeed! You see as I do. As Zarathustra was among the rabble, Nietzsche was among men ! And Lo! He was an angel all along.


"Then thou carriedst thine ashes into the mountains:
wilt thou now carry thy fire into the valleys?"



Thus Spake Zarathustra
Friedrich Nietzsche

He brought his fire, but the flame was too hot for cold ears.
 chrono1985
Joined: 11/20/2004
Msg: 13
Nietsche: Morality devoid of Divinity. (A thinking man's thread)
Posted: 7/20/2009 11:11:36 PM

Trust + Obedience = Morality

I am sorry but any respect for your opinions you may have had from me is now shattered to pieces. As a fellow human being I can not respect or support anyone's opinions when their morals are just a matter of the lemmings effect in action.
 dalane75
Joined: 3/20/2009
Msg: 14
Nietsche: Morality devoid of Divinity. (A thinking man's thread)
Posted: 7/20/2009 11:59:51 PM

In essence the mighty make the rules. This invalidates ones sense of rights by any notion of gift. If you can't keep what you have, you don't own it. The only equilibrium of righteousness is that you have become therefore you are. The notion of rights is inalienable in the construct of birth.



There are those of us who hear the music and listen and those that feel the music and react.

We forget so easily how the will to power and the eternal reoccurence of the same is There are those of us who hear the music and listen and those that feel the music and react.

We forget so easily how the will to power and the eternal reoccurrence of the same is intimately tied to and evolved from passion and reason; from the sacrificed and the crucified. Heidegger argued from his interpretation of Nietzsche that the confrontation of the self and its solvability similarly to yours which is the relationship of being and becoming. However, I find it more relevant to place the human experience within the realm of solitude in its relation to those characteristics…for we are alone.

Nietzsche expressed the idea that we are bound to our self and ought to explore those boundaries (which is why he is NOT a nihilist). The boundaries exist within this Dionysian and Apollonian (passion and reason) relationship that is found within all humans. Here we find the will to power and the eternal recurrence of the same. Within that relationship we find not being and becoming, but desire and reason. That is the wealth of Nietzsche...and it is one of the greatest treasure troves ever offered to the likes of humanity and whose insights provide a basis of study, research, and theory today.

His philosophy was not for the ears of his peers during his time because he knew more study, research, and theory were needed. Where was relativity, the unconscious, the unessentializing theories of person during his time? No, we did not grow...only our courage.
 dalane75
Joined: 3/20/2009
Msg: 15
Nietsche: Morality devoid of Divinity. (A thinking man's thread)
Posted: 7/21/2009 12:02:08 AM
We forget so easily how the will to power and the eternal reoccurence of the same is There are those of us who hear the music and listen and those that feel the music and react---please forget that lin
 dalane75
Joined: 3/20/2009
Msg: 16
Nietsche: Morality devoid of Divinity. (A thinking man's thread)
Posted: 7/21/2009 12:04:47 AM
I should also say that I do not feel comfortable defining the Dionysian and the Applonian as deisre and reason.
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 17
Nietsche: Morality devoid of Divinity. (A thinking man's thread)
Posted: 7/21/2009 6:54:41 AM

If you can't keep what you have, you don't own it

Setting aside for the moment the erroneous idea that we "own" anything at all (but rather stake claims to things, either with agreement, or by force), the quoted statement, if true, destroys the concept of law and justice altogether, yet we have laws (enforced by the supposedly destroyed concept of justice) by which we (generally) abide. The existence of the concept of justice (whether or not it is enforceable) invalidates the claim of right by might.

Nature is by nature, unfair and arbitrary, or unjust. There is no justice in nature, but that does not mean that natural justice doesn't exist (it is an abstract, man-made concept that might even be coded into our genes as an evolutionary adaptation). Acting unfairly because one can do so, in no way implies that one is right to do so. Therefore the claim of right by might is not a legitimate claim.

That justice is not done does not imply that it doesn't exist. Similarly, any author's statements about the de facto reality of "right by might" don't imply in themselves a belief that that's the way it ought to be.
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 18
Nietsche: Morality devoid of Divinity. (A thinking man's thread)
Posted: 7/21/2009 7:05:10 AM

What's with the hard-on for Hitler's muse around here?


I'm sick to death of people dropping the names of tyrants to imply that any similarity to their predispositions makes one like the tyrant. This has been done (with Hitler in particular) so often there is even a name for the logical fallacy: "reductio ad Hitlerum."

Are some of the people on this thread so dense that they'd expect anybody with more than half a brain to fall for it? If so, they have far less than half a brain in trying to employ it!

I hear Steven Harper likes his eggs over easy -- My God!!! I must be a stupid fascist traitor because I like mine that way too!!!

Gimme a break!
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 19
Nietsche: Morality devoid of Divinity. (A thinking man's thread)
Posted: 7/21/2009 11:47:57 AM
@ O.B.I.

Did I not state in my last post that I was being facetious when I wrote that? My concern was with why everyone seems so infatuated with Nietzsche around here.

Notwithstanding the fact that I consider your alluding to Hitler a trifle unwise (but quite forgiveable given the intent) in a philosophy forum, my post was not directed specifically at you (so relax...I wasn't pickin' onya), but at any poster who would try to exploit the logical fallacy for purposes of debate. There are other people on the thread you know.
 :
Joined: 4/15/2005
Msg: 20
view profile
History
Nietsche: Morality devoid of Divinity. (A thinking man's thread)
Posted: 7/21/2009 4:06:58 PM
That the Nazis ripped off so much of their imagery from him is one of the saddest footnotes of history. Nietzsche was vitriolic to the Anti-Semites of his age, many people listen to his criticisms of corrupt moral structures of the day without seeming to ever read about his desperate need to create some kind of new moral structure. It is important to consider that he is not of the opinion that God never was, more that religion in the context of his day had killed the value inherent in that idea, and that a new morality was needed (read his work Beyond Good and Evil). A morality structure that took an individuals perspective as the starting point for philosophicaly yearning towards the good that is inherent in all people.

People are going to come out now and not read that and claim he was a Nazi again, because they are retarded and don't know their fingertips from their asses, but when they say it they will be dead wrong, and furthermore a representation of the lazy evil in bigotry he so detested as counter-evolutionary in life.
 MtLoopHiker
Joined: 8/6/2005
Msg: 21
Nietsche: Morality devoid of Divinity. (A thinking man's thread)
Posted: 7/21/2009 7:30:00 PM
Getting morality from religion is like McDonald's telling you what's healthy. Consider the source.
 Gwendolyn2010
Joined: 1/22/2006
Msg: 22
Nietsche: Morality devoid of Divinity. (A thinking man's thread)
Posted: 7/21/2009 7:42:05 PM
Morality is only connected to religion because religions have appropriated morality.

I am fond of saying that I am ethical but have no morals. The dictionary might call the words synonyms, but I see morals connected with some arbitrary "rules," i.e. sexuality, and ethics as "rules" to guard or keep safe the species.

Our prime biological imperative is to perpetuate the species, and that is why ethics arose. It is easier to safeguard the young and make sure humans flourish if we are not constantly fighting each other (well, not fighting within the tribe--it's ok to destroy THEM). Don't kill, don't steal, don't lie and don't sleep with the neighbor's wife because it can cause chaos and ill will, and those are dangerous to the community.

When religion came into being, it claimed societal mores because they helped religious leaders control people. Control a man or woman's sexuality, and you control that person. Tell people that they will go to hell for breaking rules gives those rules a loftier purpose--and the punishment exceeds a slap on the wrist.

Some of the most ethical/moral people whom I have known and know are atheists. They, and I (as a pagan) CHOOSE to be ethical--we are not ethical because some religious leader threatens us with the wrath of a god.


religion can be blamed for everything yet when a plane went down in the Andes some ate the dead to survive and others could not...


Would someone please explain to me what this has to do with the topic? May I also point out that every time a Christian takes communion, he/she is "committing" an act of cannibalism.


Trust + Obedience = Morality....


This negates the "morality" of every nonChristian.

Empathy + Logic + Inherent Tendencies = Ethics
 GQSunset
Joined: 2/28/2009
Msg: 23
Nietsche: Morality devoid of Divinity. (A thinking man's thread)
Posted: 7/21/2009 10:08:03 PM
One man's immorality is another man's divinity.
 dalane75
Joined: 3/20/2009
Msg: 24
Nietsche: Morality devoid of Divinity. (A thinking man's thread)
Posted: 7/21/2009 10:49:04 PM
I find it funny that those who have criticized Nietzsche in this post have done so on the basis of his supposed mental health during his writing than with his concepts. Some have even admitted they are unfamilar with those concepts which explains why they would not comment on his concepts. This is quite sad given they are unfamilar with his works and still feel they know enough to consider his works only relevant to a madman. The mental state of an individual should not be considered when addressing the validity and soundness of a concept, but evaluated separately from each other. A concept is judged, interpreted, experienced, and can be embraced by others (owned) outside of the creator of that concept, while a mental state can only be experienced as that mental state by the one with that mental state. This difference separates the two into different categories of study and research and so should be treated separately.

I understand O.B.I that you fully explore your own faculties of reason in creating your beliefs, yet I find it more prudent to attempt to build from other established traditions even if it is only a small part that I borrow. I am such a limited thing that exists for such a short while (at the very least as this life) that I would never get anywhere without a little help. This does not mean that I do not reason or think for myself, but only that I am not afraid to study and question.

In a couple of posts you wrote that you are at times misunderstood butin another post you implied that you expect a clear and simple presentation of an idea, so you avoid "arcane" terms. At times, for better clarity it helps to use a field's jargon (which I do not believe desire and reason are specialized jargon) even if clarity is imperfect. I find it disagreeable that you hold others to a higher standard that you admittedly find trouble adhering to.

The reason philosophy has not become mainstream is the same for any field. It takes years of study and practice even as a hobby. This is similar for other fields and hobbies as well and so is nothing unique to philosophy.

I agree wholeheartedly that many of us do not think for themselves and only follow what is presented as true at that time without any questioning. Nietzsche too argued this as well. Those that had the strength to stand alone and think for theirself he labeled as great. He argued against socialism because it crushes the human spirit just like capitalism. Both systems needs a simple workforce and so must teach traditional values instead of creativity since they need slaves and not masters. He also helped to establish grounds against an essential nature of humanity, and argued that history, with the other fields of study, are heavily dependent on interpretation; never soley based on fact. He was against nationalism, political parties, and anti-semitism.

One reason that Nietzsche is so often misunderstood is for instance found in his proclamation that God has been murdered. Most would find that to be the aim of that passage and many do not go past that statement. However, the core of the passage is found after that assertion which is the series of questions of what comes after the murder. Who is responsible? Who shall take responsibility? Who shall clean the mess and remove the decomposed God? What system shall take its place? Since no one was willing to do just those things and create anew, he knew the deed has not been completly understood. The remnants of God was still in existence even in many of the athiestic and secular systems being offered during his time; nobody had the strength to destroy what was left and begin the process of creating something outside of it.

A few quotes:

"You have commited one of the greatest stupidities--for yourself and for me! Your association with an anti-semetic chief expresses a foreigness to my whole way of life which fills me again and again with ire and melancholy...that the name of Zarathustra is used in every Anti-Semetic Correspondence Sheet, has almost made me sick several times..." A letter is his sister 1887.

"Every great human being has a retroactive force: all history is again placed in the scales for his sake, and a thousand secrets of the past crawl out of their hideouts--in his sun. There is no way of telling what may yet become history some day. Perhaps the past is still essentially undiscovered! So many retroactive forces are still required!" The Gay Science [34].

"Rendering onself un-armed when one had been the best-armed, out of a height of feeling--that is the means to real peace, which must always rest on a peace of mind; whereas the so-called peace, as it now exists in all countries, is the absence of peace of mind. One trusts neither oneself nor one's neighbor and, half from hatred, half from fear, does not lay down arms. Rather perish than hate and fear, and twice rather perish than make oneself hated and feared--this must someday become the highest maxim for every single commonwealth too." The Wanderer and his Shadow [284].


"No one is responsible for man's being there at all, for his being such-and-such,or for his being in these circumstances or in this enivornmnet. The fatality of his essence is not to be disentagled from the fatality of all that has been and will be. Man is not the effect of some special purpose, of a will, and end; nor is he the object of an attempt to attain an 'ideal of humanity' or an 'ideal of happiness' or an 'ideal of morality.' It is absurd to wish to devolve one's essence on some end or other. We have invented the concept of 'end': in reality there is no end." Twilight of the Idols [8].
 dalane75
Joined: 3/20/2009
Msg: 25
Nietsche: Morality devoid of Divinity. (A thinking man's thread)
Posted: 7/21/2009 11:15:45 PM

Nietzsche described very eloquently how might makes right. His philosophy of the superman was indeed synchronised with Hitler's faith, Mein Kampf is full of it as if the predisposition that Nietzsche was some kind of genius lends credence to Hitler's distinct claim that so was he. Yet where you put such ideologies into motion, what you see is rotten little so and so's abusing other people and calling it all good.


You misunderstand Nietzsche. The proper translation is not a superman but the overman. As the quotes above show from a few of his works posted above, he did not argue might makes right nor was he anti-semetic. In fact his whole philosophy can be seen as more of a challenge in how to live. The concept of the overman is built from the belief that freedom is not derived from something but to yourself. To be free is not to be free from but to be free to. This is one reason why he was so vehement against christianity. It is also why he was against the herd-like and wished that we could become true thinkers in the sense that we have the willingness to stand alone in our thought. You could argue that his system leads to moral relavitivity, but one must remember that his will to power with his freedom to oneself establishes what he considered the higher values; a constant transforming and struggle with yourself. There are problems with his system, but I think if you take the time to truly study his works then you will develop an appreciation for his philosophy.
Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > Nietsche: Morality devoid of Divinity. (A thinking man's thread)