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Show ALL Forums  > Off Topic  > Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?      Home login  
 AUTHOR
 JWG86
Joined: 7/5/2008
Msg: 2
Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?Page 1 of 29    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29)
Medication errors in hospitals kill roughly 3x more people than people using guns do per year.

Gun ownership is a right--but noone pays for you to buy one. Paying for a firearm is responsibility of the buyer, noone else.

Lots of Europe has started moving back towards private practice as socialized health-care didn't work out so hot.

I fail to see your point in any way.

____________________

The post below is full of win!
 davidsauvignon
Joined: 2/6/2008
Msg: 6
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Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 7/25/2009 1:02:51 AM

Seems there is a lot of hubub in the media as well as among Republican party members over Obama's attempts to socialise the healthcare system in the USA to make it so that everyone can recieve treatment equally.

Yup, lots of hubbub goin’ on here, OP. Ooo, just remembered something...seems it’s not just Republicans or (omg) the media doing the hubbubbing...why do you suppose it has stalled? Yup, good job OP...cuz democrats are doing a little hubbubbing themselves.

Now, stay with me, OP...



Being a Canadian, I don't see why so many Americans take offense to these new ideas, just because your country has been run by a bunch of ignorant people for the last 50 years who didn't want to change the healthcare system doesn't mean it's going to kill you.

Oh goodness, young feller...your Daddy should have took behind the woodshed years ago and strapped some respect into your azz.

Your opinion is, that America should bow down to your pathetic little opinion and do what your ignorant leaders have done for the last 150 years? (see how that kind of discourse isn’t very effective?) Change our system to match yours? Wow, that’s pretty arrogant, isn’t it, OP? Do you see, read or hear anywhere that the USA thinks you’re too ignorant to decide your own laws and rights and need to update them to be consistent with America’s?

I have to ask, OP...what is your purpose...or, point to this thread?


Why should it be a constitutional right for any American to own a gun while only those with a lot of money can have full healthcare benefits from the best doctors in the country while others who don't have as much money can't get the same treatment, especially for important medical procedures.

WTH does owning a gun have to do with healthcare? Our government doesn’t insist on or provide guns to us. As far as I know, there isn’t one person in this Country paying taxes on income they earned that go to buying and providing guns to private citizens who can’t afford to buy them.

Ask our 15 to 20 million illegal immigrants how many of them have not received the same life saving care that the wealthiest of us who actually pay for those services are entitled to.

Yup, America actually cares about life and liberty...so much so, that we can’t and won’t turn away someone in need of healthcare...in spite of the fact that they have never paid one red penny into any kind of system.



If anything, it should be a human right to have proper medical care

Says who? Where is this proclaimed and documented, that every human being on the Planet is ‘entitled’ to ‘proper medical care’? Do you protest more loudly against countries that have NO health care for their citizens? You know, like some of those countries in Africa, the Middle East, etc.?

If your goal is truly benevolent, why aren’t you starting threads, traveling and proclaiming your cause for the countries and people who need it most?



I have never understood that mentality as to why the US still hasn't gone to a socialised healthcare system

The answer to that is pretty simple, OP...because you didn’t grow up here...you’re on the outside looking in rather than ‘living the dream’. Risk and reward. Personal responsibility and rugged individualism.

Add to that, Canada’s affiliation with the Commonwealth and direct ties socially and politically with Europe, it only makes sense you “have never understood” America’s mentality. And that , OP kind of blows my mind...considering the similarities in our beginnings on this Continent.



with hundreds of billions that could be dumped into it every year, every person would get the same quality of treatment without being stuck on a waiting list like us Canadians have to deal with since we don't have the facilities due to a much lower influx of tax funding every year.

That’s a load of crap. Your per capita GDP isn’t much different than ours.

Look OP...here are some graphs that compare Canada, Mexico and the USA...(OUR Continent). To me, they point out some pretty obvious things that ‘we’ all could work to change and improve. There are no ‘Rights’ saying we are entitled to...only ‘Responsibilities’ which say we should.


http://www.mint.com/blog/finance-core/canada-and-mexico-vs-the-us-a-visual-comparison/






~ds~
 SAguy_06
Joined: 12/29/2005
Msg: 7
Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 7/25/2009 3:45:41 AM
How in the name of common sense can you pass a Health Care reform bill,
that does not provide any protocol for how millions of doctors and health care professionals are going to get paid!


how are the getting paid now? what is going to change...

Id like to pay my Doctor with Chickens like the ol days
................................................................................................

This Hrealth Care is a priveladge, not a right is what I am hearing more and more...

OK, what Party's platform is that from...I know the Rebuplicans have their own version of Heath care reform, so where does this thinknig come from ...That you are entitile to what you can afford and tax payers should not fund Health care at all.

What party do you, who believe like this, belong to...So I can vote against your candidates.
 tom sellecks mustache
Joined: 7/19/2009
Msg: 8
Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 7/25/2009 8:09:08 AM
The only people against universal healthcare are shiteating ***holes.
 SAguy_06
Joined: 12/29/2005
Msg: 9
Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 7/25/2009 12:01:12 PM
When the OP mentioned he was "Canadian" what part of that were you too stupid to understand.


If you reread msg 9 you will see a dotted line separator...meaning a new thought or idea was being expressed...im sorry I didn't state that for you. I can understand your confusion...my bad.

if I were still speaking to the OP the sentance would have read...

"What party do you belong to OP...So I can vote against your candidates."

And not..."What party do you, who believe like this, belong to...So I can vote against your candidates.

The "Who believe like this". is directed to all those folk that believe this idea.

Although, you may be right because, I cant see what the OP being Canadian has to do with anything...

 JWG86
Joined: 7/5/2008
Msg: 10
Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 7/25/2009 12:39:40 PM
Firearm—In 2006, 30,896 persons died from firearm injuries in the United States (Tables 18–20), accounting for 17.3 percent of all injury deaths in 2006. Firearm suicide and homicide, the two major component causes, accounted for 54.6 and 41.4 percent, respectively, of all firearm injury deaths in 2006.
In 2006, a total of 38,396 persons died of drug-induced causes in the United States (Tables 21 and 22). The category “drug-induced causes” includes not only deaths from dependent and nondependent use of either legal or illegal drugs, but also poisoning from medically prescribed and other drugs.

One should check statistics before making outlandish claims. I'm not even going to cite my source becuse it should be obvious who provided these stats.-bipolarintense


I fully agree! One should check their stats, (and in my case, their lack-of-sleep induced mis-worded post!). I was incorrect when I typed "medication". "Medical" was the word I SHOULD have typed. Thankyou for pointing out my mistake, however, my point remails the same.:

The Institute of Medicine (IOM) reports on two studies estimating the hospital deaths due to medical errors at 44,000 to 98,000 annually, which would place medical errors in the top ten causes of death in the USA. http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?isbn=0309068371
 thrums
Joined: 7/28/2007
Msg: 12
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Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 7/25/2009 1:22:56 PM

I have never understood that mentality as to why the US still hasn't gone to a socialised healthcare system


I really wish people would stop calling it 'socialized', it's not. The free part only means you don't pay for the care at the time, you pay for it as part of your taxes. The UK has a separate entry for 'National Insurance Contribution' which means the Government is a big HMO/PPO.


with hundreds of billions that could be dumped into it every year, every person would get the same quality of treatment without being stuck on a waiting list like us Canadians have to deal with since we don't have the facilities due to a much lower influx of tax funding every year.


You have just highlighted the argument for the 'cons', funding is limited and procedures need to be managed accordingly - virtually all the counties that use a 'Nationalized Health care system' have a waiting list issue. The UK system worked well at the start but is now falling apart as the population increases and lives to a much longer age.
The same problem exists with the pension scheme, the amount somebody paid in 30-40 years age does not cover what they get now.
 JWG86
Joined: 7/5/2008
Msg: 13
Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 7/25/2009 2:55:12 PM
Estimates. Of course estimates are totally accurate. Especially studies from 1984 and 1992 both of which are mentioned but offer no details on what these supposedly "large samples" actually were.

Mine are only from the CDC who used actual statistics gathered from every medical institution in the United States.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr57/nvsr57_14.pdf

Of course yours is more accurate. -bipolarintense


The estimated deaths associated with HAIs in
U.S. hospitals were 98,987

wait


for


it

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dhqp/pdf/hicpac/infections_deaths.pdf


Oh but wait! I must be in the "propaganda and false information" section that the CDC publishes! lol

Do you understand why an estimate is used here? There is no way to PROVE that it was a nosocomial infection. Ergo any number reguarding deaths caused by healthcare proceedures will be an estimate.

Also, the US HAS gone to "Universal" Healthcare in some instances in some states. Like Hawaii. They tried it. It bankrupted the program in less than half a year and they got rid of it.
 readyornot57
Joined: 1/19/2008
Msg: 14
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Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 7/25/2009 3:36:03 PM
OP, to answer your question, this country has not gone to a socialized health care system because the drug lobby, the insurance lobby, etc has made sure to protect industry profits by totally buying Washington and totally misinforming the public.

Everyone is fine with quoting Reagan UNTIL THRY GET SICK and the insurance company cuts them off or triples the premium etc and then they cry like little baby victims because they thought they were safe and everyone else was fukked. Now they find out THEY are fukked and they are not fine with that but it will be too late Reagan lovers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Universal single payer coverage is the only way to go in a civilized compassionate society which we in the United States are not.
What should government be paying for, if not universal health care? More bank bailouts? More Halliburton no bid contracts? Oh yeah, I am REAL happy my tax dollars go to that.
 JWG86
Joined: 7/5/2008
Msg: 15
Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 7/25/2009 4:12:09 PM
Nosocomial (HAI) infections are caused by "medical errors" in sterility and proceedure. This is indeed a "medical error" as I stated. Please go back to page one. Read my second post (17). Modify your use HTML code so that your post is easier to read.
 Twilightslove
Joined: 12/9/2008
Msg: 18
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Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 7/26/2009 6:49:42 AM
"Americans pay more when they get sick than people in other Western nations and receive more confused, error-prone treatment, according to the largest survey to compare US healthcare with that of other nations.

The survey of nearly 7,000 ill adults in the United States, Australia, Canada, New Zealand, Britain, and Germany found Americans were the most likely to pay at least $1,000 in out-of-pocket expenses. More than half went without needed care because of cost, the survey found, and more than a third endured mistakes and disorganized care.

While patients in every nation sometimes run into obstacles to getting care and deficiencies in treatment, the United States stood out for having the highest error rates, most disorganized care, and highest costs, the survey found."

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2005/11/04/us_lags_behind_other_nations_in_healthcare_study_says/

Those facts are not due to government regulations but the lack of government regulations. I don't always think the government is responsible yet I do believe that capitalism and greed are out of control.
 SAguy_06
Joined: 12/29/2005
Msg: 19
Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 7/26/2009 8:06:01 AM
It's still morally wrong to penalize people who make more money, by making them pay more taxes!


Please explain this theory...where does it say it is immoral to make one pay Taxes?


...................................................

I might remind everyone...The 2nd amendment can be amended itself...If in the future Americans repeal the 2nd, gun rights will be no more...Just because we have guns now doesnt mean forever.
 shmodzilla
Joined: 10/6/2008
Msg: 20
Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 7/26/2009 12:58:04 PM
Health care is not a privelage,your drivers license is. Nobody can force an american citizen NOT to have it . Americans that are uninsured by their place of employment will put buying health insurance DEAD LAST on their prioritys in a budget. Nope gotta have 2 new cars, go out to eat 5 times a week ,drink,smoke, but health care just doesnt fit into there budget.
 SAguy_06
Joined: 12/29/2005
Msg: 21
Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 7/26/2009 2:04:48 PM

The thing is if someone is making more money than someone else.... If they pay the same % of taxes.... They will already pay more taxes. That person is already contributing more to the kitty. So why is it fair to expect them to now even pay a higher %?


taxes...more taxes

I never said Fair...Gentleman said Immoral. I asked where does it say that ...paying taxes, paying higher percentage or rate is Immoral?
 JWG86
Joined: 7/5/2008
Msg: 22
Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 7/26/2009 7:19:38 PM
Gent, YOUR healthcare may be fine, but your hospital is reeling. Down in the South, many hospitals are closing because they don't have enough money to stay open because of treating illegals and people who don't have healthcare, etc. Hospitals are shutting down, Dr's are getting pissed, etc. Healthcare is not "ok". I applaude that you are doing fine, but the system itself is in trouble.
 davidsauvignon
Joined: 2/6/2008
Msg: 26
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Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 10/2/2009 8:51:14 PM
WOW, Dino! I have to give kudos when they are due.

I know you and I are polar opposites in our political views, but I sincerely appreciate your honest assessment in your above post. IMO, it echoes the sentiment and opinions of the vast majority of Independents who voted for Obama. They are quickly tiring of the same old rhetoric, doublespeak and smoke & mirrors.






~ds~
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 28
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Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 10/12/2009 3:07:12 PM
There is that little line in the Declaration of Independence that could be codified by Constitutional Amendment.
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

The founders, in their wisdom of the day, could not have envisioned insurance company death panels that would deny care, life and liberty for citizens not being given basic care to sustain life, and liberty from having homes and all assets taken by said corporations should one fall on hard times, by bullet, luck of the draw or corporate neglect. With most of the bankruptcies and home thefts now happening because of health issues, there is a direct assault on life, liberty and the persuit of happiness.

The founders probably had not envisioned extreme right militia groups, drug gangs, mafias, and known criminals being bestowed an inalienable right to bear arms against the life, liberty and pursuit of happiness of their citizenry.

Again, I did not hear the 2nd amendment folks screaming and yelling about the violations of the 1st, 4th, and 5th amendments over the last 8 years. It's the "I GOT MINE" folks, temporarily secure, covered, and able-bodied, that scream the loudest in this debate on basic human dignity and the right to not be killed by neglect or accident in the current health care system run by corporations who run the government. I don't think the founders had envisioned corporate control of citizens in their visioning process.
 Terry Pie
Joined: 4/4/2009
Msg: 30
Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 10/12/2009 5:00:02 PM
the term law abiding citizen is not just a term.it has meaning.as a reward for keeping my nose clean,proving i am a good and responsible citizen,i have to right to own and purchase firearms legally!if that right is taken away,gangstas murderers,robbers and what ever else will still have their guns.in fact,i doubt many sheriff depts. would enforce a major gun ban,and many would arrest federal marshals for trying to take our guns!the right to own and bear arms was written at a time when health care was not much of an issue.
perhaps we need to re-think some things,but i will never turn over my hard earned right to bear arms.case in point,Australia banned personal firearms,and that turned out to be a major fiasco,with the criminals cashing in on the helpless public.the ones that kept their arms and fought back were made into criminals,and that is just wrong!i am a veteran,trained in firearms,and am not going to shoot anyone without just cause or rob a liqueur store.i proved that by passing the back ground checks.my guns are in storage,but one that is for protection,living in the country.not just against the bad guys,we have rabid raccoons,poison snakes wild dogs.guns are american as apple pie,but the pie tastes better.
please read this article about post gun banned australia:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1117376/posts
 yna6
Joined: 1/21/2007
Msg: 31
Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 10/12/2009 5:06:28 PM
Maybe the States should start selling and taxing pot. Use the proceeds for health care.
Legalize and monitor the sex industry. Tax it .
Sell old nukes to weird countries..no discounts.
Hire more security to keep illegal immigrants out.
All these things would go towards a better health care system in one way or another.
 Terry Pie
Joined: 4/4/2009
Msg: 32
Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 10/12/2009 5:21:00 PM
we have enough wackos running around without legalizing dope.people are having enough trouble tracking here now.trust me,we don't need that.health care costs would drop considerably if the feds would grow a set,and cut the deficit so they could afford to ban cigarettes!the collect an unholy amount of taxes on a product they know is addictive,will cause major health problems,and very likely will kill you and destroy ones quality of life.at 49,i enjoy pretty good health,while my neighbor,two years my senior can barely make it to his mail box.and he cannot understand why i excersize daily!because i can,i don't smoke.
the border also would not be a problem had our last president stayed out of iraq!now we are tied in two wars,while he made a major tax cut,added medicare part b,and at the same time,allowed our factories to run away to other countries.bush was/is a moron and shout be tried for treason.
just my opinion,please lets not beat that horse or this thread will get pulled.pot is not the answer my friend,and is perhaps the problem,we have had politicians that claim they did not have sex or inhale,if you recall.although he did balance the budget!
Hmmmmmmmmmmm,you may have a point.LOL
 RSwindol
Joined: 8/25/2005
Msg: 34
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Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 10/13/2009 3:17:55 AM
Lots of Europe has started moving back towards private practice as socialized health-care didn't work out so hot.

Actually most European countries never completely got rid of privatized health care completely. It is true that there are benefits to privatized health care...if you can afford it. But what about all of the people who can't afford it? Should there not be an alternative? Should a person be denied a chance to live a healthy life just because they are unsuccessful?
 Terry Pie
Joined: 4/4/2009
Msg: 36
Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 10/13/2009 8:48:25 AM
and that is my point.Australia is supposed to be a free nation,and their politicians decided they don't need guns!honestly,i am against abortion,but am pro choice.not my place,and especially the federal governments place to tell anyone what they can or cannot do with themselves.over here,we call them liberals,although it's a contradiction of terms.they want to control every thing and every one.i voted for obama,but he may as well forget gun bans and registered bullets.you want to see america break up,try to take our guns while criminals are walking around with full automatics,i can't even buy one!why do the have them?somebody is getting them from somewhere!stop the flow of illegals,weapons and drugs.we will prosper again.
but,australians,like americans can effect change,if it's not too late.911 hurt us all in more ways than we care to admit.in our panic,we allowed the (un)patriot act,and other controls.once civil liberties are lost,it is very hard to get them back.happened after pearl harbor too.but in time,rights were returned.always be some fight going on,we just have to keep our heads screwed on straight.
you here all the bad things about the wars,but we are winning,we are conditioned to panic.for example,8 us soldiers were killed in a raid last week.panic,need more troops.but what one fails to hear is that over 100 taliban were killed.they cannot continue these losses,not to mention they are lacking funds.we are conditioned to react in a panic."more laws,more money".obama is sitting back,looking at the over all picture,and refuses to react in a panic.scares people,but he is what we needed,a level headed leader.but he still is getting the heat.
anyways,back on track,he is working on health care,it needs fixed,bush busted our budget with part'b'.people are in a panic,but he is keeping his word and looking for a solution.if anything,it will make insurers more competitive.we are at a cross roads,the old way or the new way.with our industries gone or in ruins,deficits,wars.now is the time to begin fixing,changing.so when all the dust settles,we will be set to prosper again.clinton did it,carter did it,although reagon got credit for it,and obama will get us right.
it takes time.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 38
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Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 10/13/2009 2:37:04 PM
I am in the socialized medical system of the VA. I've never had problems getting appointments, needed specialists and testing. The people are caring, diligent, have excellent bedside manners, and are professional every step of the way. The VA instituted a computer records system and redundancy in patient ID that assures the right patient is getting the right drugs and procedures, a system that private industry is trying to catch up to. Other than being underfunded, understaffed and overwhelmed by hundreds of thousands of new war vets, they do damned well with available resources. I went in for my annual lab tests last week and I spent approximately 2 minutes in the waiting room.

I know our veterans do not deserve socialized medicine, but if this is the future of socialized medicine, I would have to say that the nightmare scenario is wildly overblown and highly inaccurate.
 Terry Pie
Joined: 4/4/2009
Msg: 39
Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 10/13/2009 11:13:56 PM
thing is,the va has very good care.i used them.but when dealing with veterans,geriatrics,handicapped,ect.,there are going to be complaints.there are waits,can be slow.people see things as an individual,and va care is limited by the amount of hospitals,staff and budgets they have.one would imagine,with new health care,veterans can also use regular public care if they choose.great option,keeping in mind the va is set up for many of our special needs,and we cannot lose sight of that.
i researched national health care.seems to work well most of the time,keeping in mind,working with the public,you are always going to have complainers.1000 pages is nothing,makes one wonder how many pages the current 'plans'have as opposed to one consolidated plan,plus private competitors?people,i don't care what bunk you are reading,republicans have been using that ploy for years now,this is a great idea,it's time has arrived,and we best get er done.now is the time to over haul the works.stop complaining about obama's big spending,most of that money is put back collecting interest.look at it all,not this internet crap,it will work,has to work,and will have growing pains.
 Strings6
Joined: 7/14/2007
Msg: 41
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Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 11/4/2009 1:47:34 PM
For this comparison to be legitimate in any way a person would buy a gun and shoot it everyday,and his neighbor would have to buy the bullets...self defense is a right..the key word being self.
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