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 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 4
Most red ink ever: $9 trillion over next decadePage 1 of 2    (1, 2)
Deficits are bad. Full stop.

But sometimes you aren't faced with good options - only bad and less bad. In 1930 the market collapsed, the economy tanked and the government of the day slashed spending in the name of balanced budget. This guaranteed the Great Depression. FDR brought in the New Deal and introduced a lot of "wasteful spending." For instance, he built hydroelectric dams on the Columbia - producing electricity that wasn't needed. But all this unused electricity meant that aluminum production started up in the Pacific Northwest. All that aluminum production prompted a Vancouver airplane manufacturer to move south of the border - so Boeing is now an American company.

Deficits in times of economic crisis are the less bad choice. What should have been an issue was the systemic deficits during good times - there is no excuse for that. Bush lowered tax rates to artificially low levels. You should be screaming to raise taxes to pre-Bush levels.
 Chiwrtr72
Joined: 6/15/2006
Msg: 5
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Most red ink ever: $9 trillion over next decade
Posted: 8/29/2009 7:22:58 AM

The Republicans have sent us on a downward spiral...along with the Democrats..Everyone who has had power in the last 40 years has helped to make the mess we are in today..I see no way out.


Actually that's not quite true... the Clinton administration made the effort and were getting results. Did they benefit from an extremely healthy economy? Yes.

I do blame Bush 2 for cutting taxes when his priority should have been eliminating the deficit and then keeping (and expanding) tax cuts once it was clear America was going to war.
 kabiosile
Joined: 11/3/2005
Msg: 6
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Most red ink ever: $9 trillion over next decade
Posted: 9/3/2009 10:28:20 AM
Typical Conservative nanny state nonsense as usual.

want to see where the vast majority of that money went?

http://costofwar.com/


Leave it up to conservatives to waste tons and tons of money and then blame it all on social programs.

Typical nonsense.

Have a look at this Dmotz.

http://conservativenannystate.com/cns.html#11
 EarlzP
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 7
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Most red ink ever: $9 trillion over next decade
Posted: 9/15/2009 8:54:38 PM

Jack..I agree with you...
The Republicans have sent us on a downward spiral...along with the Democrats..Everyone who has had power in the last 40 years has helped to make the mess we are in today..I see no way out. Maybe stopping all the freebies...stop Heath care the obama way before it sinks us for good. Cut the welfare rolls...this will be the hardest part...getting the hands out of the cookie jar...


The only thing that will save our economy is jobs, and the only way to create jobs is to spend money and since big business refuses to invest in our country we have only one way to produce the employment we need to fuel this economy, I don't know if it's to late for President Obama to save our country but I have no doubt that if we are going to make it, he is our best bet

Total U.S. health care costs are 14.6% of the gross domestic product, compared with 5% in 1960 and those costs will double in the next ten years, a public option is really critical to getting these costs under control why else do you think President Obama has been pushing for health care reform? What do you think he or the democrats have to gain from reform?

Keep fighting him and you will eventually feel the bite as the big fish take taking chunks out of you and your family
 Ready4SomethingFun
Joined: 3/17/2008
Msg: 8
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Most red ink ever: $9 trillion over next decade
Posted: 9/15/2009 9:35:15 PM
Hi Earl, been awhile!!


The only thing that will save our economy is jobs, and the only way to create jobs is to spend money and since big business refuses to invest in our country we have only one way to produce the employment we need to fuel this economy, I don't know if it's to late for President Obama to save our country but I have no doubt that if we are going to make it, he is our best bet


Then to what exactly do you attribute Big Ben's announcement earlier today that the recession is over? It sure wasn't Obama's stimulus since the majority of it is still in the coffers.

Our country can save itself, many wish Obama would stop trying, he only causes more grief and misery, not anything good. Obama is worthless unless he can manufacture a crisis (which half the country finally sees right through).


A public option is really critical to getting these costs under control why else do you think President Obama has been pushing for health care reform?


Because the majority of votes democrats get are votes from the teetsuckers of America.


What do you think he or the democrats have to gain from reform?


See last reply.


Keep fighting him and you will eventually feel the bite as the big fish take taking chunks out of you and your family


Quit fighting him and you will eventually feel the bite as big government takes chunks out of you and your family.
 EarlzP
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 9
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Most red ink ever: $9 trillion over next decade
Posted: 9/15/2009 9:42:16 PM

Because the majority of votes democrats get are votes from the teetsuckers of America.


Because we believe differently then you do, we are a bunch of teetsuckers? Is that what you are saying, 52% percent of the people voting voted for President Obama, what percentage of them would you classify as teetsuckers?

You honestly believe that President Obama created a crisis where none existed is that your claim?
 Ready4SomethingFun
Joined: 3/17/2008
Msg: 10
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Most red ink ever: $9 trillion over next decade
Posted: 9/15/2009 10:17:39 PM

Because we believe differently then you do, we are a bunch of teetsuckers?


Not what I said at all. I said that those who ARE the teetsuckers pretty much overwhelmingly vote democratic.


52% percent of the people voting voted for President Obama, what percentage of them would you classify as teetsuckers?


What percentage would you say are? 2008 was a strange election, with basically crappy choices and a republican candidate set up to lose. And he still managed to get a large chunk of votes. So I'd say quite a few Republicans voted for Obama out of a feeling of lesser of two evils (and boy are they regretting it now), since McCain was painted as a continuation of Bush, who only 27% of the people liked. So hard to tell what percentage of those who voted for Obama are teetsuckers, but I'll bet you close to 100% of those who qualify as teetsuckers voted for Obama.



You honestly believe that President Obama created a crisis where none existed is that your claim?


When a president claims something that won't even go into effect for 4-5 years is a national emergency and must be done now, I start to look for reasons why it suddenly became such an emergency. Not so much a crisis but a smokescreen to try to take people's eyes off of his other failures. And it is backfiring on him. All the people who are uninsured could be insured cheaper without jeopardizing the majority who are happy with their present healthcare. This is a ploy and people are seeing through it. Healthcare didn't become a crisis until late spring/early summer (about the time unemployment hit over 9%, and the reason the many are now uninsured is because of that very fact). So set up some emergency insurance for the unemployed until the unemployment rate bounces back, set up something for the rest of those 47 mill--oops I mean 30 million (or whatever number the teleprompter says this week) and we save money & the so called crisis is averted.

Too easy.
 EarlzP
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 11
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Most red ink ever: $9 trillion over next decade
Posted: 9/15/2009 10:38:53 PM

You honestly believe that President Obama created a crisis where none existed is that your claim?



When a president claims something that won't even go into effect for 4-5 years is a national emergency and must be done now, I start to look for reasons why it suddenly became such an emergency. Not so much a crisis but a smokescreen to try to take people's eyes off of his other failures. And it is backfiring on him. All the people who are uninsured could be insured cheaper without jeopardizing the majority who are happy with their present healthcare. This is a ploy and people are seeing through it. Healthcare didn't become a crisis until late spring/early summer (about the time unemployment hit over 9%, and the reason the many are now uninsured is because of that very fact). So set up some emergency insurance for the unemployed until the unemployment rate bounces back, set up something for the rest of those 47 mill--oops I mean 30 million (or whatever number the teleprompter says this week) and we save money & the so called crisis is averted.

Too easy.


Your being led by the same group of people who bear the major responsibility for getting our country into this crisis that does not exist according to you, your a pawn being used by the kings and when they are done you will be consumed by the greed that has brough our once great nation to it's knees, your in denial and want to place the blame on the one person who truly has the good of our country in his heart, it's a shame but if you and those who believe like you get their way we will see what it will be like when and if you get your way

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090915/us_nm/us_usa_healthreform_employers


U.S. workers' health costs soaring, studies show


WASHINGTON (Reuters) – U.S. workers getting health insurance for their families through employers have seen their premiums more than double in the last decade and the trend toward higher health costs is expected to continue, according to two reports released on Tuesday.

The Kaiser Family Foundation said the average premium for a company-provided family health insurance plan rose from $5,791 in 1999 to $13,375, a 131 percent jump.

Separately, the Business Roundtable, an organization that represents large U.S. corporations, said per-employee costs will jump to $28,530 in 2019 from $10,743 currently if nothing is done.

The findings come as Democratic lawmakers push their health reform plan aimed at containing rising costs and covering the millions of Americans currently without insurance.

President Barack Obama has said the changes should build on the current U.S. model, in which most people under the age of 65 with health insurance get it through their employers.

The Kaiser study said the portion of costs born by employees grew from $1,543 on average a decade ago to $3,515 this year. Employer saw their costs shoot up too, from $4,247 in contributions in 1999 to $9,860 in 2009 on average.

"When health care costs continue to rise so much faster than overall inflation in a bad recession, workers and employers really feel the pain. That's why we are having a health reform debate," said Drew Altman, the foundation's president and chief executive.

One Democratic proposal includes a public insurance plan that would rival the insurance industry.

Some critics of a public plan say it could encourage companies to stop providing health benefits, while others say employers would still want to offer benefits to attract employees.

The Business Roundtable says it wants to safeguard the coverage companies already provide while making the system more efficient.

"The (roundtable) report ... paints a very grim picture of what happens if we fail to reform the healthcare system. The cost increases are so large that the employer based system that we have today will be at serious risk," Eastman Kodak Chairman and CEO Antonio Perez told reporters by telephone.

About 60 percent of companies offer health-care coverage in the United States, insuring 159 million non-elderly people, according to Kaiser.

Among those companies still offering health plans, 21 percent said they had reduced benefits or asked workers to pay additional costs while 15 percent said they had increased workers' share of the insurance premium.

For 2010, companies said they also would shift more costs to workers, with 42 percent saying they would increase employees' premiums and 39 percent saying employees would pay more for doctor visits. Thirty-seven percent said workers would have to pay more for prescription medicines.

The survey is based on information that Kaiser, along with the Health Research and Educational Trust, collected earlier this year from more than 2,000 public and private companies with at least three workers.

Kaiser Vice President Gary Claxton concedes the survey misses one big issue -- the number of employees who lost their coverage because they were fired or their company went out of business.

"It's not clear that we got the whole picture," he said in an interview.


By the time the 48% percent of the people who did not vote for President Obama awaken they may find that they are living the night mare that their votes helped create
 Ready4SomethingFun
Joined: 3/17/2008
Msg: 12
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Most red ink ever: $9 trillion over next decade
Posted: 9/16/2009 12:36:24 AM

How come deficits only matter to Republicans when Democrats are in office? Deficits were run from Reagan, Bush I, (went down under Clinton - no props from Reps.) and up again under Bush. . . not a single peep out of you guys . . and now that a Democrat is in office - what a shock - Reps are upset about deficits.


Well, THIS republican was real upset about the deficit Bush was running up, bailing out companies and spending like a drunken sailor, but at least when he did a stimulus the people got the money, not ACORN and a bunch of people who helped him get elected. No president has gotten this country to the point of indebtedness that their children's children will be paying for it most of their lives. And the most important factor of it all---none of it worked. The bailouts under Bush & Obama, unemployment still rising. The economy is slowly getting back on it's feet (or so says Ben) but it sure wasn't anything Obama OR Bush did. It did it itself like it always does.


Gotta love the hypocrites.


Sure do. Take a look at Obama, what is he really doing any differently than Bush? But the world's all better now because the man in charge has a D behind his name, his actions don't matter.
 EarlzP
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 13
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Most red ink ever: $9 trillion over next decade
Posted: 9/16/2009 3:51:57 AM

Well, THIS republican was real upset about the deficit Bush was running up, bailing out companies and spending like a drunken sailor, but at least when he did a stimulus the people got the money, not ACORN and a bunch of people who helped him get elected. No president has gotten this country to the point of indebtedness that their children's children will be paying for it most of their lives. And the most important factor of it all---none of it worked. The bailouts under Bush & Obama, unemployment still rising. The economy is slowly getting back on it's feet (or so says Ben) but it sure wasn't anything Obama OR Bush did. It did it itself like it always does.


So where did the stimulus money go that Bush received? Of the 300 Billion spent from the President Obama stimulus how much went to ACORN and others that supported President Obama.?
 flyonthewall!
Joined: 3/31/2008
Msg: 14
Most red ink ever: $9 trillion over next decade
Posted: 9/16/2009 6:49:35 AM

Leave it up to conservatives to waste tons and tons of money and then blame it all on social programs.

Typical nonsense.


We spend about 20 percent of our budget on the military and 56 percent of our budget on Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid and the interest on the debt (which is now 9 percent).

Whatever you think about the war in Iraq (personally, I was against it), military spending doesn't come close to what we spend on entitlements.

Let's get real here.
 bliss serendipity
Joined: 12/27/2006
Msg: 15
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Most red ink ever: $9 trillion over next decade
Posted: 9/17/2009 2:14:56 AM
If US taxpayers want to know where their taxes are going,


CIA Experiments on U.S. Soldiers Linked to Torture Program
by Valtin
Wed Sep 16, 2009 at 0756 PM PDT
Originally posted at The Public Record and Truthout
A number of new articles have been published recently that have highlighted evidence of illegal human experimentation on U.S.-held "terrorism" prisoners undergoing torture. These articles followed the release of a "white paper" by Physicians for Human Rights [PHR], Aiding Torture: Health Professionals’ Ethics and Human Rights Violations Demonstrated in the May 2004 Inspector General’s Report.
This report looks at those recent charges, and reveals that experiments by a CIA researcher on human subjects undergoing SERE training went unreported in the legal memos the Bush administration drafted to approve their torture program. It will also connect major military and intelligence figures to the SERE experiments, and tie some of them to major science and "experimental" directorates at the CIA and Special Operations Command.
An article by veteran journalist William Fisher, looking at PHR's white paper, asks, "Did physicians and psychologists help the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency develop a new research protocol to assess and refine the use of waterboarding or other harsh interrogation techniques?"
A column at Scientific American quotes PHR's medical advisor on the subject:
[PHR] also raises questions about the ethics of medical note-taking during some of the interrogations. "Medical doctors and psychologists colluded with the CIA to keep observational records about waterboarding, which approaches unethical and unlawful human experimentation," Scott Allen, lead study author and PHR medical advisor, said in a prepared statement.
Finally, a story in Wednesday's UK Guardian discussed the significance of the charges of unlawful human experimention:
Human experimentation without consent has been prohibited in any setting since 1947, when the Nuremberg Code, which resulted from the prosecution of Nazi doctors, set down 10 sacrosanct principles. The code states that voluntary consent of subjects is essential and that all unnecessary physical and mental suffering should be avoided.
The Geneva conventions also ban medical experiments on prisoners and prisoners of war, which they describe as "grave breaches".
After describing how "[h]ealth professionals in the Office of Medical Services and psychologist contractors engaged in designing and monitoring" torture, as "selecting and then rationalizing" the use of various harmful interrogation techniques, the PHR report goes on to say:
By requirement, all interrogations were monitored in real-time by health professionals. Previous reports, including the ICRC report, document allegations that a medical device called a pulse oximeter (a device to measure oxygen saturation in a subject’s blood) was placed on the finger of a detainee to monitor the effectiveness of his respiration during waterboarding. In this way, medical professionals were used to calibrate physical and mental pain and suffering....
The possibility that health professionals monitored techniques to assess and improve their effectiveness, constituting possible unethical human experimentation, urgently needs to be thoroughly investigated.
An Experimental "Battle Lab"
The CIA's Office of Medical Services was supposed to be in charge of monitoring "detainee" health under interrogation. However their instructions, described in an annex to the CIA Inspector General report, exemplifies the dual nature of the "monitoring," as this example from the report shows:
If there is any possibility that ambient temperatures are below the thermoneutral range, they should be monitored and the actual temperatures documented. [2 or 3 redacted lines]
At ambient temperatures below 18 [degrees]C/64 [degrees]F, detainees should be monitored for the development of hypothermia. [Four redacted paragraphs]
Rather than make changes to ambient temperatures, to prevent harm to prisoners, medical professionals are instructed to monitor and document the situation. The torture techniques used by SERE are known to cause endocrine and metabolic disorders (see section on CIA research below), prisoners tortured and subjected to cold are at higher risk of hypothermia, which for a normal person can set in at an ambient temperature of 60 degrees F. The monitoring in this case seems to be as much about experimentation as it is any concern for a prisoner's health. (For what other possible reason could this section be mostly redacted?) Parallels to the experiments on hypothermia by Nazi scientists at Dachau are chilling, as is the fact that some of these scientists werelater imported, along with their data, to the United States.
Questions were raised around possible human experimentation in an article last May at Firedoglake on "The Zubaydah Torture 'Experiment,'" noting, "Of the many fascinating details coming out of [the May 2009 Senate] Judiciary hearing... the references to the application of an experiment by the ex-SERE CIA contractor, most likely James Mitchell, seemed especially important."
The experimentation was not limited to "high-value" CIA prisoners. Last April, another article at Firedoglake reported how the Senate Armed Services Committee report (PDF) on prisoner abuse described the creation of an experimental "battle lab" at Guantanamo, demonstrating support for the torture program from the main Army intelligence school at Ft. Huachuca.
According to the Levin report, in August 2002, "COL John P. Custer, then-assistant commandant of the U.S. Army Intelligence Center and School at Ft. Huachuca, Arizona" conducted a review of interrogations operations at Guantanamo. Custer called Guantanamo "America's 'Battle Lab'" in the war on terror, and recommended combining FBI and military techniques to extract "information by exploiting the detainee's vulnerabilities." The "Battle Lab" label stuck, though some, like Colonel Britt Mallow, of the Criminal Investigative Task Force, objected.
MG Dunlavey and later MG Miller referred to GTMO as a "Battle Lab" meaning that interrogations and other procedures there were to some degree experimental, and their lessons would benefit DOD in other places. While this was logical in terms of learning lessons, I personally objected to the implied philosophy that interrogators should experiment with untested methods, particularly those in which they were not trained.
Later, Dunlavey denied using the term, and Miller testified he couldn't remember.
Pre-9/11 Experiments on SERE Torture
The experiments on the effects of SERE-torture techniques began even earlier -- upon SERE trainees themselves. An April 2009 AlterNet article reported on the history of experimentation on soldier subjects undergoing SERE training. (SERE is a military program, the acronym standing for Survival, Evasion, Resistance, Escape.) The article explained how the Office of Legal Counsel (OLC) and the CIA "ignored a wealth of other published information about the effects of SERE 'stress inoculation,'" citing a June 2000 article, "Assessment of Humans Experiencing Uncontrollable Stress: The SERE Course," in Special Warfare (PDF). Special Warfare is "The Professional Bulletin of the John F. Kennedy Special Warfare Center and School" (emphases added to following quote):
Results
As shown in the charts on page 7, SERE stress caused significant changes in students' hormone levels. Recorded changes in cortisol levels were some of the greatest ever documented in humans. In some cases, the changes noted among the trainees were greater than the changes noted in patients undergoing heart surgery....
Changes in testosterone levels were similarly remarkable: In some cases, testosterone dropped from normal levels to castration levels within eight hours.
The Alternet article also quoted from a May 2000 article in Biological Psychiatry, Hormone profiles in humans experiencing military survival training (emphasis added):
Conclusions: The stress of military survival training produced dramatic alterations in cortisol, percent free cortisol, testosterone, and thyroid indices. Different types of stressors had varying effects on the neuroendocrine indices. The degree of neuroendocrine changes observed may have significant implications for subsequent responses to stress.
Looking beyond more than physiological symptoms, other studies have looked at purely psychological data. Consider this oft-quoted study from the August 2001 edition of the American Journal of Psychiatry, which looked at dissociative symptoms, such as depersonalization, derealization, psychic or emotional numbing, and general cognitive confusion, produced in military subjects exposed to SERE torture techniques (emphasis added):
The current study was designed to assess the nature and prevalence of dissociative symptoms in healthy humans experiencing acute, uncontrollable stress during U.S. Army survival training. METHOD: In study 1, 94 subjects completed the Clinician-Administered Dissociative States Scale after exposure to the stress of survival training. In study 2, 59 subjects completed the Brief Trauma Questionnaire before acute stress and the dissociative states scale before and after acute stress. A randomly selected group of subjects in study 2 completed a health problems questionnaire after acute stress. RESULTS: In study 1, 96% of subjects reported dissociative symptoms in response to acute stress. Total scores, as well as individual item scores, on the dissociation scale were significantly lower in Special Forces soldiers compared to general infantry troops. In study 2, 42% of subjects reported dissociative symptoms before stress and 96% reported them after acute stress.
Other research results include the effects of SERE-style torture upon the immune system and other biological markers. The findings regarding high levels of cortisol upon subjects was corroborated by a SERE psychologist at the Navy Brunswick, Maine, SERE school, who -- according to an unclassified, undated Talking Paper from the Joint Personnel Recovery Agency -- found "empirical medical data... [of] elevated levels of cortisol in the brain stem caused by stress levels incurred during water-boarding." The Brunswick school subsequently discontinued waterboarding as part of its SERE training, as it created a "negative learning environment." The other Navy SERE school, in North Island, California, refuses to eliminate exposure to waterboarding as part of its training program, despite the opposition of JPRA and the other SERE schools, which believe it can induce a "learned helplessness" state in students.
SERE Research and the Development of the Torture Program
One of the lead researchers in a number of these studies is Yale psychiatrist Charles A. Morgan, III. According to one source, "Over the past 10 years, Dr. Morgan has served as a Subject Matter Expert to the US Special Operations Command." But at a June 2004 symposium on "The Nature and Influence of Intuition in Law Enforcement," sponsored by the U.S. Department of Justice, the Behavioral Analysis Unit of the FBI, and the American Psychological Association, Dr. Morgan is listed as affiliated with "Behavioral Science, CIA."
Additionally, in the Information Science Board (ISB) document, Educing Information -- which was heavily drawn upon by President Obama's task force on interrogations, for recommendations on the interrogations issue -- Dr. Morgan is identified as a member of the 11-person "Government Experts Committee," and listed as affiliated with the Intelligence Technology Innovation Center (ITIC). According to Intelligence Online, ITIC is "a research organization under the CIA's authority," which "answers directly to the CIA's Science and Technology directorate."
The Obama Interrogations Task Force recently made clear they found a lot to value in the ISB study (emphasis added):
The Task Force concluded... that the United States could improve its ability to interrogate the most dangerous terrorists by forming a specialized interrogation group, or High-Value Detainee Interrogation Group (HIG), that would bring together the most effective and experienced interrogators and support personnel from across the Intelligence Community, the Department of Defense and law enforcement. The creation of the HIG would build upon a proposal developed by the Intelligence Science Board.
Whatever the fate of the HIG, what is noteworthy here is that the Office of Technical Services (OTS), which was cited in the recently released 2004 CIA Inspector General report as having vetted the aggressive SERE interrogation techniques, is, along with the ITIC, also a part of the Science and Technology directorate. OTS, formerly the Technical Services Division (or Technical Services Staff), was the branch of the CIA in charge of torture and assassination. It was also in charge of the experimental mind control and interrogation program known as MKULTRA.
Dr. Morgan's online profile states that between 1998 and 2002 he received over $400,000 in research grants from the Army and the Office of Naval Research (ONR) for studies on "Psychobiological Assessment of High Intensity Military Training" and "Neuro endocrine assessment of Survival School Training." A 1977 Washington Post expose -- those were the days of scandalous revelations surrounding the CIA's MKULTRA program -- describes CIA use of ONR to funnel funds for secret experiments in the 1950s and 1960s. The same relationship was also explored during a 1977 Senate Intelligence Committee hearing. This is not evidence that Morgan's research was paid for by the CIA, but along with his institutional affiliation, it is suggestive of possible CIA involvement.
While it is unknown to what degree the CIA was directly involved in the SERE research (outside of Dr. Morgan's affiliation), Special Operations Command reportedly was a major supporter.
The co-author of the Special Warfare article referenced above, and working with Dr. Morgan on a number of other SERE research papers looking at physiological and psychological effects of SERE techniques, was Gary Hazlett, a clinical psychologist with the Psychological Applications Directorate at U.S. Army Special Operations Command. Moreover, Morgan and Hazlett cited "the approval and support [for their research] of Lieutenant General William Tangney, Major General Kenneth Bowra, Major General William G. [B]oykin and many others..."
Maj. Gen. Bowra retired from the military in 2003, after serving as Commanding General of Army Special Operations Command South, U.S. Southern Command. Following the military, he went to work as Senior Program Director with Oak Ridge National Laboratory, serving as national laboratory liaison to U.S. Joint Forces Command, J9 Directorate. Another source states that currently Bowra is senior mentor/concept developer at USJFCOM J9 for Joint Urban Operations and Homeland Security experimentation. J9 stands for the Joint Concept Development and Experimentation Directorate (JCD&E). It "leads the development of emerging joint concepts, conducts and enables joint experimentation, and coordinates DoD JCD&E efforts in order to provide joint capabilities to support the current and future joint force commander in meeting security challenges."
The possible involvement of USJFCOM's J9 in research upon SERE follows upon the revelation, discussed above, that CIA's OTS, part of CIA's Science and Technology directorate, was heavily involved in the implementation of the SERE techniques for use by the CIA. While the use of the term "experimentation" appears to have a broad meaning in military usage, beyond that of conducting scientific experiments, given the charges surrounding human experimentation upon torture victims, any connections between these secretive "experimental" directorates and the SERE torture program, or research upon it, is worrisome.
Maj. Gen. Boykin was the controversial former commander of Special Operations Command at Fort Bragg, North Carolina, who resigned over statements that indicated he saw the "war on terror" as a religious war. At the time he was Special Operations commander at Fort Bragg, according to a recent New York Times article, SERE psychologist James Mitchell was completing his last military assignment as "psychologist to an elite special operations unit in North Carolina." Boykin previously served as CIA Deputy Director of Special Activities, and in June 2003, became Deputy Undersecretary of Defense for Intelligence under Donald Rumsfeld right-hand man, Stephen Cambone.
Lt. Gen. Tangney is yet another former commanding general at Army Special Operations Command. Also retired from the military, he is currenly Senior Vice President for Intelligence, Security, and Special Operations, at Future Technologies, Inc., a supplier of, among other things, a "well-developed global network of experienced intelligence, security and special operations professionals" working with Special Operations, the Defense Intelligence Agency, and other military customers.
While Dr. Morgan appears to be well-connected among the military and intelligence elite, it is important to remember that there is no reason to conclude that Dr. Morgan or his co-researchers have ever been involved in torture or experiments meant to be used for torture. (We cannot say the same for CIA or military medical or psychological personnel, however.) In fact, it is possible that Dr. Morgan's research has led him to oppose coercive interrogation techniques, as his published research documents the debilitating effects of SERE torture, which utilized against a prisoner could only be considered cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment, if not torture. (Although, at the 2007 convention of the American Psychological Association, Dr. Morgan indicated he was against the idea of removing psychologists from national security interrogations, which was being considered in a motion before APA at that time.)
A 2007 New York Times article quotes Dr. Morgan:
Many SERE veterans were appalled at the "reverse engineering" of their methods, said Charles A. Morgan III, a Yale psychiatrist who has worked closely with SERE trainers for a decade.
"How did something used as an example of what an unethical government would do become something we do?" he asked.
Dr. Morgan's comments appear to put him at odds with other members of the CIA's Science and Technology directorate, particularly those who work for OTS, as well as individuals within the Pentagon and Special Operations Command, who have been tied to elements of the U.S. torture program.
The Suppression of Research on SERE in the OLC Memos
What is clear is that the CIA and the Pentagon had plenty of experimental evidence from the peer-reviewed, published research of Dr. Morgan and his associates (and possibly others), both before and after 9/11, that SERE techniques had serious, debilitating effects on individuals subjected to them. As this research is never cited in any of the Office of Legal Counsel memos issued to the CIA around their torture program, it appears such research was deliberately withheld from government attorneys as the CIA sought approval for the use of SERE-style torture. Nor was this obscure research, but had been funded by the government at a minimum of hundreds of thousands of dollars, and promoted by some of the Pentagon's highest generals.
The frenzied search for data on waterboarding, sleep deprivation, isolation, confinement in a small box, etc., to submit to OLC attorneys making legal determinations on whether proposed interrogation techniques constituted torture, was a kabuki organized by the CIA. The OLC attorneys involved -- John Yoo, Stephen Bradbury, Jay Bybee, and others -- were witting or unwitting partners in suppression of CIA research on torture (as future investigations will disclose). Given the participation of members of the Office of the Vice President, particularly David Addington and Vice President Cheney himself, in the promulgation of the torture program, and the composition of the memos, it seems likely they were also involved in the suppression of this material. As a result, the memos produced authorizing the "enhanced interrogation techniques" were composed as the result of fraud and bad faith, the result of a criminal conspiracy to implement illegal torture techniques.
The public response to the recent "white paper" by Physicians for Human Rights shows there is great interest in following up on charges of human experimentation upon torture victims of the U.S. government. The Congress and Department of Justice should move swiftly to initiate full, open investigations and charges against those involved.


Bliss
 EarlzP
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 16
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Most red ink ever: $9 trillion over next decade
Posted: 9/27/2009 8:18:41 AM

Because we believe differently then you do, we are a bunch of teetsuckers? Is that what you are saying, 52% percent of the people voting voted for President Obama, what percentage of them would you classify as teetsuckers?



60 - 75%


So you have now got the point of name calling? What's next?
 bliss serendipity
Joined: 12/27/2006
Msg: 17
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Most red ink ever: $9 trillion over next decade
Posted: 9/27/2009 10:56:29 PM

I had no idea we were interupting nap time. Speaking of which, check y'all later.


You find this so boorish, eh?

Bliss
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