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 tass08
Joined: 8/11/2008
Msg: 4
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?Page 1 of 22    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22)
I am not in favor of spanking but the study is flawed unless they somehow controlled for every other factor, including parents, genetic abnormalities, prenatal care, circumstances of birth, care and feeding as an infant, and every environmental factor from air quality to brand of dish soap used in the house, not to mention how the parents interact with the child/submects aside from the spanking.
 the SoldierByte
Joined: 12/25/2005
Msg: 5
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/27/2009 10:34:09 AM
NOPE.. don't chang MY mind..
That "article" is just
tree-hugger/left wing crap..
if that young-un is misbehaving...
a spankin will make a shopping trip through walmart
a whole LOT more pleasent for normal folk..
---SoldierByte---
 Tealwood
Joined: 12/16/2008
Msg: 7
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/27/2009 10:49:07 AM
So everyone can now have higher IQ's if they are not spanked.

No matter where your parents might have been they can raise their childs IQ by not spanking their child.

I think there are more than a few holes in this study? So is that to suggest so many points per spanking? Can i then sue the school for the spanking's and the strap that I was given as they attempted to make me conform to the rules that existed.

I happen to feel that cause and effect is a decent learning tool for children. Or is that consequences are something that are a result of ones action or attitude.

But then there are those who suggest time outs work. Or standing at detention. While in reality for some it was almost a badge of honour.

But poor me...my IQ was damaged forever!!

But i was taught lessons in understanding consequences of my actions.
 the SoldierByte
Joined: 12/25/2005
Msg: 8
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/27/2009 10:51:03 AM

why....;.why....why don't we spank adults?

--cripes..
why don't soldiers shoot their superiors..??
why don't police officers let OUT the crooks..
why.. why.. why..
CAUSE they HAVE been disciplined..
and realize..
there ARE (and MUST be) consequences for their actions..(in a civilized society)
go and push your "ways" at ACORN..
they will accept your "article"..
---SoldierByte---
 carterscutie85
Joined: 5/31/2007
Msg: 10
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/27/2009 11:00:51 AM
Honestly I have never resorted to physical violence with any of the children I have watched. When I watched my neices and nephews if they misbehaved I'd put them in the corner or send them to their room. Never seemed to have a problem with them staying in their corner or staying in their room. When it was time to come out of the corner I'd get them, ask them if they understood why they were being punished, talk to them and reassure them that I still love them, and then spring them from the corner and their behavior problems would cease until I was done watching them. Now with an older child, probably like 10 or older, I'd probably just take something away, like a favorite toy or video game, until they could learn to behave.
 tass08
Joined: 8/11/2008
Msg: 14
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/27/2009 1:29:19 PM
I agree Jaxi.....and I also agree that this among many studies in human nature are inherently flawed because one cannot account for all the factors in the human psyche that could affect the outcome. Still, this study among many others go to demonstrate that corporal punishment has negative affects on children - are they all wrong?


So you agree that this study and others conducted in the same manner are fundamentally flawed, but you still say it demonstrates something valuable. Bullshi|t says I. Either a study is reliable or it's not. Using a poorly constructed soapbox to stand on when you make your point doesn't give your argument more authority, it just means you'll use anything to get your point across. Bear in mind that I agree with your position on corporal punishment.
 InNCsearching
Joined: 7/22/2009
Msg: 15
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/27/2009 2:06:02 PM
well i guess from the beginning of time til 20 years ago when this whole non-spanking thing came about means...the whole world is populated by idiots. i don't buy it. it's bullsh#t. unles you spank the child in the head like a professional boxer just one more thing to make this a child centered world. last time i checked, children do not make money and need a good swat on the butt to get their attention when acting out. these will be the same kids that get in a fight for the first time and wonder....owww...that hurt. wait you mean if i piss someone off they will hit me? duh...dam right they will.
 singlesuperdad
Joined: 8/26/2009
Msg: 16
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Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/27/2009 2:11:55 PM
I think the research is flawed. they aren't sitting on their heads. If that were the case, being one that was spanked and has an iq in the genius level,are you saying It would be even higher?
 shrimp46
Joined: 1/12/2009
Msg: 17
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/27/2009 2:54:36 PM
If my kid missing up in a F..... store Im gonna beat her ass...No BRUISES ...She will know Not to F...up again ITALIAN DISIPLINE
 ohwhynot46
Joined: 6/28/2009
Msg: 18
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Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/27/2009 4:49:04 PM
I am not opposed to ALL spanking, and wouldn't deem it as abuse, however, I do think that spanking is NOT discipline. Spanking makes the parent feel better, while teaching the child ONLY that if they pizz off someone bigger than they are, they will get hurt. Don't get me wrong, I have given my kids a swat or two in their lifetime, but never without a warning, and a specific one at that, admitting that I will use my hands to stop them from acting out, if they aren't willing to listen. A quick swat is sometimes the most effective way to stop a particular behavior instantly. If we tell ourselves that it teaches children how to behave, though, we are fools. Frankly, some of the posts are disturbing. How unfortunate that ignorance cannot be beaten out of you.
 packagedealx3
Joined: 2/4/2006
Msg: 19
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Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/28/2009 9:13:53 AM
I think it is a flawed study because the only way to really measure this would be to take two children who by the age of four had not been spanked with the same IQ and have one in an environment within which they were spanked and one that wasn't.

The differences in IQ can be genetic and relating a great deal to more than just whether they are being spanked, i.e. are the spankings like some people that they are few and far between and primarily related to physical danger type issues or does the parent spank them for most of the discipline and also not spend the type of quality time with them that develops their intellect because in addition to being spanked, they are neglected.

Unless the study controlled for parenting style, with IQ such a touchy issue (cultural bias and other issues) to begin with because measurements are flawed and IQ is only a base line for how well the child will achieve in school, I wouldn't put all that much stock into the study.

Something like this would really only work with twins separated and adopted out at birth to two very different homes.

For example, was talking to a woman last night whose son was six months younger than her niece. The niece was being raised by the grandmother and she literally didn't talk to her (her marriage had split by then and she was raising her by herself with no one else in the house) when she was very young, was far behind the younger cousin with language acquisition until the mother of the grandson said you need to start talking to this girl, read books or the newspaper, doesn't have to be kid stuff, just read and talk to her. If they had been measured at that time for IQ there would likely have been a huge difference between the boy and the girl and I don't think intelligence wise, they are that far apart at the age of 18, I have met the boy and he is just socially strange, lol.

When people see studies like this and particularly articles about the studies, there is usually no discussion about whether the research design was adequate to eliminate all of the many variables. This is similar to much of the divorce and its impact on children studies that have not controlled for efficacy of parenting before or after the split, while they have begun including that in the factors they are evaluating. Obviously if parents are parenting poorly before the split and they don't improve after the split, it is going to be traumatic for the child, duh. If the child is parented well by at least one of the parents prior to the divorce and that good parenting and even possibly improvement on the other part of the parent occurs, these children cope as well and most often better than their peers that aren't being parented well and live in highly contentious two-parent homes. Even if neither parent is doing well before the divorce, often the custodial parent gets it together and does better when the stuff with the spouse isn't in the middle of every single day.

For this study and future studies of this nature to be meaningful, a great deal of information about overall parenting, particularly whether they are doing anything to stimulate the intellect is important information that must be included to determine whether spanking is the single factor impacting IQ performance. At 4 and 5, school has not had that much of an impact on the child's development although with older children, school could narrow the gap relative to intellectual stimulation of a child. But my parents were school teachers and any good teacher will tell you that it is only the extraordinary child that will really do well, no matter how smart they are, if the parents don't really understand that housing, feeding and clothing is only a part of raising their children.

Ohwhynot makes a good point because there is a huge difference between spanking as a main disciplinary tool and spanking occasionally and doing the other things you need to do to teach a child the proper way to behave.
 big pacific
Joined: 7/2/2009
Msg: 20
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Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/28/2009 9:27:01 AM
Another case of correllation vs causation in my mind.

I think another poster said it, and i agree. I think the tendancy for spanking children is far more prevalent in lower education and lower income families. Sure there are exceptions, but I'd bet that stat would bear out.

IQ is menatal age as it relates to physical age, if you are in a lower income/educational househould i think it bears out that they would have a lower mental age. As an average i would also bet that the average iq of parents that spank is ALSO lower.

Hell some of the smartest people i know are conservatives, but have you seen that map that showed the average IQ of states that went to george w bush in the 04 election? Holy Cow it was damning.
 packagedealx3
Joined: 2/4/2006
Msg: 21
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Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/28/2009 9:39:02 AM
Just an anecdote after reading some of the other posts. My children have never been spanked when they haven't been significantly warned beforehand, a given that they may have gotten a swat for heading for the street or something, which would have occurred without an immediate warning but obviously behavior they had already been told was dangerous and time was a factor.

When I am really at the end of my rope and toolbox with the kids, I go into my kitchen, grab a cabinet door and open and slam it until my timeout is over. This usually occurs after a full day of the kids, 10, 14 and 17, at each other's throats and/or not doing whatever minimal chores they have been asked to do, something that usually involves them justifying their inaction based on the siblings productivity, sigh. Oddly enough, a spanking is never involved because the little buggers realize they have gone to far and mom might actually snap for real.

I agree to a significant extent about the kids, not necessarily because of spanking but because the pendulum swung away from authoritarian to permissive parenting. I was absolutely appalled 14 years ago when we finally had custody of my then 16-year-old stepson. The way these kids talked to teachers and administrators, the really bottom of the barrel scum in school when I was coming up would not even have dreamed of saying.

I was spanked when I was a kid, it was not the fear of spanking that kept my mouth in check, and I back-talked plenty as a teen but there was a line that I didn't cross because it would not have been tolerated by my parents. I think today's kids know that many parents are afraid to really discipline their kids and to do the tough love thing if it is necessary when they are teens. It is also interesting that my daughter who is a senior has more than a few friends that have been kicked out of the house before they finish high school. Are the kids worse, or did the parents not set the appropriate boundaries for all of their developmental stages? My kids aren't angels, they infuriate me on a regular basis because evidently this is their job but they know there are certain things I am going to dig my heels in about and not give up reminding them that I am the adult and the only one with money, i.e. they can't take care of themselves and they know they aren't going to find anyone else willing to support them, and they must listen to me, sigh.

I'm looking at the when the kid gets bigger than you thing right now with my middle son and my youngest who will not only be taller than me one day, at 10, the kid is already built like a linebacker. I think what will make the difference with my boys is that they know that they do need someone telling them what to do even if they don't like it and as I am the only constant that has ever been in their lives, they will think long and hard about pushing me to a point that I have to draw a line in the sand.

As for the analogy with spanking adults, we spank them by firing them and by locking them up when they break laws. Just as with children, for some, the pocketbook and employment is sufficient motivation for behavior modification, when not, those people usually wind up either in dead end minimum wage jobs barely making ends meet or in jail.

And I agree that parenting without spanking is better but yannow, I can't really get it out of my head that every time I see a kid who is just acting so horribly that even when my kids were really young they would look at the kids like they were out of their minds for the behavior at the store or wherever, I think, that kid has never been spanked. Old school, chicken shit parenting or whatever one wishes to call spanking I think that there are places and times when it should occur.


62 years of collected data, Gershoff looked for associations between parental use of corporal punishment and 11 child behaviors and experiences, including several in childhood (immediate compliance, moral internalization, quality of relationship with parent, and physical abuse from that parent), three in both childhood and adulthood (mental health, aggression, and criminal or antisocial behavior) and one in adulthood alone (abuse of own children or spouse).

Case in point, they looked at the child behaviors, did they investigate the parenting methods of any of the people using the corporal punishment, i.e. were they using any strategies beyond spanking, how often was spanking used, etc. Sixty-two years doesn't mean jack if the controls for other variables were not properly examined and managed.
 singlesuperdad
Joined: 8/26/2009
Msg: 22
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Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/28/2009 11:39:03 AM

I think another poster said it, and i agree. I think the tendancy for spanking children is far more prevalent in lower education and lower income families. Sure there are exceptions, but I'd bet that stat would bear out.

IQ is menatal age as it relates to physical age, if you are in a lower income/educational househould i think it bears out that they would have a lower mental age. As an average i would also bet that the average iq of parents that spank is ALSO lower.

Hell some of the smartest people i know are conservatives, but have you seen that map that showed the average IQ of states that went to george w bush in the 04 election? Holy Cow it was damning.


Here we go again, stereotyping. Utter Nonsence, low income/ education has absolutely nothing to do with IQ. IQ isn't something you learn in school or something that can be bought. Hell you can have the IQ of a genius and still be uneducated and poor
 big pacific
Joined: 7/2/2009
Msg: 23
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Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/28/2009 12:03:13 PM
You really think so superdad? You're calling me out, as most of your posts are logical and level headed, i'll just give you some resources.

First off IQ tests generally include vocabulary; verbal analogies; number sequencing,
and some math. SOME children WILL have an advantage based on their upbringing. IQ stand for Intelligence Quotient, derived from the mental age of the child vs the physical age. If a child has been coached and educated from early stages of life (say pre k for example) it would make sense that they would have a competitive advantage would it not?

IQ IS in fact something you can learn in school actually, THAT is why they test children so young. You can develop skills that aide you, plus as you age it messes up the "quotient" and doesn't have as much validity.

Also their are other funtions of performance on testing, for example: Nutrition. The studies that show the effects of good nutrition on student performance are numerous. As are the studies that show that the lower you are in the socio-economic world, the worse your nutrition is (in general)

http://www.connectforkids.org/node/516
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2008-12-07-childrens-brains_N.htm

Theres a ton more out there. To say low income and education has nothing to do with IQ seems a bit out there to me. While you can have the iq of a genius and still be uneducated and poor, the odds are most certainly stacked against you. Nutrition, lifestyle, education ALL contribute to the brain development of children.
 big pacific
Joined: 7/2/2009
Msg: 24
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Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/28/2009 12:15:05 PM
I actually was spanked spag. As for your list, i have NO idea if albert einstein was spanked, nor anyone else on that list. I couldn't begin to surmise.

If you choose to mention specifics to show that there are specific examples that go against a trend, I would agree there are. I don't think anyone here was saying that "if you are spanked, you have an IQ of 80, PERIOD". For the 6 you list, list 6,000,000 kids that get spanked, and then test them against the ones that aren't.

I think Einstein, Hawking AND Sagan would agree they were too small a test group to determine any real results.
 Birchbeer76
Joined: 2/24/2009
Msg: 25
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/28/2009 1:02:49 PM
I don't see spanking as the issue in of itself. The study, to be accurate should have included the parents in a questionairre of how they parented. Are they involved? Do they do all they can, or minimal? Were there observations of the family's done to see how they interacted?

In my own personal life I was spanked. I have spanked my kids, my friends have spakned their kids as well. I don't see an issue there.

The issue I see between my friends children and mine is involvement. I try to be very involved in my children's education. My buddy is taking the minimalistic, lets play computer all night and let the gameboy raise them (on average, sometimes he does stuff). There are more spankings going on in his home than in my home. But I think the spankings are just a symptom of something else...
 singlesuperdad
Joined: 8/26/2009
Msg: 26
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Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/28/2009 1:19:41 PM
Oh my god birchbeer you and your kids have lower IQ's now, lol. according to the above
 big pacific
Joined: 7/2/2009
Msg: 27
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Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/28/2009 1:24:26 PM
^^^^^^^^ Still waiting for your response to the IQ post i threw up earlier superdad.
'
And now for something completely differnet.

I think thats interesting spag, and often in these forums i see people that confuse correlation with causation. It isn't the end all be all.

Is it hard to believe that children that spend more time watching television aren't doing something that could be more based in the realm of academia? Or kids that play video games? The supposition that only ONE thing on this earth can affect a childs score seems a bit out there to me.

Also remember we are talking about IQ here, NOT intelligence. There is a VERY large distinction, many children don't test well. Some are late starters, hell einstein couldn't read for forever. He probably wouldn't have scored well at an early age.

I mean theres that stat that says kids that play music do better in school, i've always felt that is a misinterpretation of the data and that it was based on socio-economic backrounds, mom can't afford a baby grand probably can't afford a tutor if the kid struggles kinda deal. I sincerely doubt that violin is going to make the kid a genius, i think its MORE that kids with the ability to participate in music come from more affluent backrounds and therefor have a better support group.

I feel this study is similar, it's not that you are "beating" the kids brains out, so to speak. To me it reads that the backround and genetics of people that spank, probably on average isn't as good as those that don't. This isn't a "you shouldn't spank" agenda, i just think its interesting. Raise your kids as you see fit. Again, your results may vary.
 packagedealx3
Joined: 2/4/2006
Msg: 30
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Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/29/2009 7:32:43 AM

psychologist Elizabeth Thompson Gershoff, PhD, of the National Center for Children in Poverty at Columbia University
Duke University
University of Missouri-Columbia,
University of South Carolina,
Columbia University
Harvard University
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
National Institute of Mental Health
American Psychological Association

All of these institutions have reputations for outstanding, peer reviewed, rigorous scientific investigative work.

I don't disagree with that comment but there is also something that needs to be taken into consideration when one looks at psychological studies in particular. Most study something that is fairly narrow and many studies are designed to control for certain variables. When one looks at the discussion and conclusion section of the studies, the researchers will list the problems inherent with the design, the size of the sample, the things that were controlled for. With the divorce studies, for example, there have been at least twenty years or more of studies that did not even look at parenting style and efficacy, they were only looking at the age of the children at the time of divorce, whether the non-custodial parent was involved, etc. it has only been very recently that they have been factoring parenting into the studies. Many studies even failed to consider how the child was doing before the divorce, when mom and dad were bringing them up in a turbulent home, to see if the academic and social behaviors had deteriorated or if they were merely doing less well than their peers in good nuclear families, which would have been the case divorce or not. It has only been very recently that many studies have shown that if there is a good parent many kids do better after the divorce than would have been the case if mom and dad stayed together because the level of conflict in the home is, well, absent.

So it is not that any single study is massively flawed but psychological studies tend to feed off each other. We have findings from a study, there will be others done with larger samples, etc. to see if the results can be replicated. Then they start looking at the holes in the studies, so they design new studies to account for those and it may take 20 or more years to really get to the point that they have actually been able to isolate the one factor, in this case spanking, to gauge exactly what is going on.

The study that was originally cited in the OP illustrated that the IQ gap closed from the younger children to the older children so just using simple logic it is highly likely that those children that were five points behind at 4 and 5 years old were not quite so behind later suggesting that the children were not perhaps raised in an intellectually stimulating environment and that being in school where they were challenged properly made a difference in the IQ.

Psychological studies are frustrating from this standpoint because you really need a huge volume for the results to be empirical and many people that read them, report on them, or quote them, don't read the whole study and information gleaned from an article, as has been mentioned by several posters, is really suspect because they often don't understand what they are writing about and cherry pick what they report, like leaving out the disclaimers by the researchers relative to problems in design, variables not accounted for, etc., because they want the best bang for the buck with the article. Shock value stuff sells papers and magazines.
 tass08
Joined: 8/11/2008
Msg: 31
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/29/2009 7:58:43 AM
If we were talking about A single study that showed there are negative aspects to spanking, yeah, I would take IT with a grain of salt. However, there have been so many studies on this topic and they all come to essentially the same conclusion...spanking carries far more negatives than positives....can you find even a single study that would support the "spanking is no big deal, I was spanked and I turned out ok" argument?
My point was not that "studies" disprove your thesis. My point was that any study purporting to blame a single factor in a child's life/environment on how the child turned out is not worth the paper it is printed on. Any study saying spanking is ok would be just as flawed. I have already stated as much, twice, and you continue to respond to me as though I disagree with you about spanking. I agree with you about spanking. But your premise --- that a "study" proves spanking is bad --- is flawed, and detracts from rather than supports your argument.



Sure you may well have turned out ok (I was spanked and I did) but how much better would I have been if my parents had not opted to use fear and threats to manipulate me into compliance (which btw didn't work anyway in my case...I'm a stubborn woman). The thing is that none of us knows how different we would be if we hadn't been spanked so to make the argument that you turned out ok is weak...turned out ok compared to what? You will never know.

I never made the argument that I turned out ok having been spanked. I never brought myself into it. In fact I was not spanked but my personal SUBJECTIVE experience has no bearing on the argument one way or another. My point is that unless you can separate spanking from other factors in a child's upbringing, you cannot argue OBJECTIVELY that spanking is right or wrong.
 packagedealx3
Joined: 2/4/2006
Msg: 32
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Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/29/2009 4:25:55 PM

Any halfway decent study controls for variables like making sure the study isn't overlooking things like the intellectual stimulation in the environment, etc.

No they don't, because it is impossible to initially isolate for everything. It may be impossible to ever isolate the single variable because we don't live in labs.

With spanking for example, it is absolutely impossible to do a study that would truly measure this. Taking sets of children with the same IQ, preferably twins and raising them exactly the same with the only difference being spanking. Can you do this in the same home, treat your kids like guinea pigs. Can you find families that spank and families that do not that would be willing to take one of the twins and raise them for the purpose of the study?

It is impossible to control for personality and temperamental differences in children, personality differences in parents, are the parents going to discipline and do everything else the same? Is a parent that has little physical contact with their child and doesn't spank going to produce a more well rounded higher IQ child than the parent that has a lot of physical contact with a child, huggling, snuggling, loving and occasionally spanks when there is physical danger involved? Have they controlled for the quality of the relationships of the parents? Were all of these children from two-parent biologically intact nuclear families? Socio-economic level also plays into this because people without money don't take their children to museums and other intellectually stimulating activities and have less things in their homes designed to stimulate intellectual development, less books, etc. Nutrition also plays a role, were the nutritional intakes of the children involved in the study examined as well?

What these studies do is they start small, they investigate a single variable and try to control for the differences. Then the next study controls for the problems with the first one, the third one controls for other things that were problematic in the second one. Most of the studies that need to be done aren't as effective as they could be because of the need for studies following these children for 30 years to see if as adults they are continuing to underperform in comparison to their non-spanked peers. If the difference in IQ is apparently mitigated by a couple of years of schooling as represented by the ages that kids were evaluated, can't we conclude that by high school no gap would exist, at least relative to IQ? If the studies started out this way, controlling for every possibility and examining all of the variables involved, those that were done 40 years ago would have looked at parenting styles and they did not.
 singlesuperdad
Joined: 8/26/2009
Msg: 33
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Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/29/2009 4:32:18 PM

Um, I'm not sure which apples to buy my kids for thier lunches... I guess I should find a study to tell me what apples to buy, cause god knows, if it's a study it MUST be right.


I've seen studies that say apples aren't good for you,lmao.
I agree TO HELL with all the studies, Life has an infinite amount of variables and no amount of studies are going to tell you the outcome.There will ALWAYS be, what if?
 singlesuperdad
Joined: 8/26/2009
Msg: 34
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Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/29/2009 6:21:09 PM

And now it's illegal to spank your kids


Maybe in your state but not in florida
 ohwhynot46
Joined: 6/28/2009
Msg: 35
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Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/29/2009 7:40:10 PM
[I would like to see the study that shows the relationship between removal of corporal punishment from schools and lower student test scores in the u.s.]

This is an interesting point! Although I don't advocate "spanking" , there is something to be said for the fact that the lack of discipline, fueled by parents who seem to instill in their children a sense of entitlement & the idea that they do not have to respect authority, has lead to our children not being able to read! It is difficult to learn in an environment where others are constantly interrupting, and often actually heckling a teacher.

Okay, maybe this says little about the correlation of IQ and spanking but it speaks volumes about education, and discipline. Spanking is (in my opinion) a means of control, not discipline. I have to assume that there is more to the correlation between spanking & IQ than just the spanking .
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