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Show ALL Forums  > California  > Health care      Home login  
 AUTHOR
 sd_matt
Joined: 7/9/2006
Msg: 1
Health care Page 1 of 46    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41)
I don't know about you folks but trying to get all the info about the health issue is like being presented with pieces of a mosaic, one at a time.

The best questions I can think of to ask is the following;

Do American health care professionals feel the system is in need of fixing or replacing? And where does this info come from? Gallup, Pew, ect.. good. Heritage Foundation, NPR, FOX, CNN...ect...bad. Can we please leave Moore and Rush out of the conversation?

If fixing then what do the doctors/providers all agree on? If not all then what are the most common things they say?

I know that I am re-hashing an old topic but I tire of trying to put the puzzle together, and this one is a whopper.
 GolfCoast
Joined: 3/17/2008
Msg: 2
Health care
Posted: 10/6/2009 4:56:23 PM
SD unless you are a doctor, is it what doctors think that is critical to you? (being sarcastic here, when the airline pilots threaten to strike I do not assume their interests and mine are the same).

Assuming you think doctors are the opinion you most seek, 70% of doctors polled in a Tipp/IBD poll 2 weeks ago opposed it, 45% said they would retire or quit the profession creating massive shortages in supply while demand skyrockets.

The gold standard for rating costs is the Congressional Budget Office. They estimate the costs of the bill (which bill?, there are at least 5 I know of and estimates of amendments run to 500 since the CBO number) is $900Billion over the next 10 years and into the trillions in the second 10 years. The medicare system is approximately 100 times more expensive than originally conceived in the 1960's, so you know the mess is substantially worse.

Some economists I respect say the addition of 30 million people currently uninsured would cause them to double the healthcare spend and create delays in obtaining care (the State of Mass plan has an average wait time of 50 days for primary care).

Personally I think Obumbler care is simply a pallative on an inevitable societal crash landing with $50 to $100 trillion in unfunded liabilities. The UAW for example has $90B in unfunded medical liabilities they cannot pay out as a result of paying their deadbeat union employees $73 an hour making crappy cars no one wants.

Each of the states, as a result of promising their deadbeat unions and state employees more than can possibly fund are seeking the same type of bailout.

It's shared misery time, only idiots think this is anything more than a big lie to hide the malfeasance of politicians over several generations, and the incompetence of the greater mass of our fellow citizens now obtaining more from the government than they put in.
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 3
view profile
History
Health care
Posted: 10/6/2009 10:40:06 PM
Can anyone show me what part of our Constitution authorizes the United States to provide health care--in any form? Let alone where it authorizes the U.S. to compel its citizens, by law, to buy health insurance? Or where it authorizes the U.S. to tax private insurers so heavily as to drive them out of business?

Just wondering. I don't really care what form of this who favors, because I think it's clear the whole thing is unconstitutional.
 sd_matt
Joined: 7/9/2006
Msg: 4
Health care
Posted: 10/7/2009 12:08:58 AM
Bajaslider

If 1+1=2 sheds some light on this then I will hold it near and dear to my heart. I'm not above anything. I have some reading to do.

Here's something I found in the meantime; http://leahy.senate.gov/press/200909/091709a.html. I'm no doctor but I cant see what's wrong with this.
 GolfCoast
Joined: 3/17/2008
Msg: 5
Health care
Posted: 10/7/2009 7:16:19 AM
Governments killed 100 million of their own citizens in the 20th century, I'll take the insurance company option thank you, I can fire their dumb butts, pay out of my own pocket, or simply decide apricot pit enemas (a little Steve mcQueen trivia for you old ones) are my best cure. I won't need a government accountant assuming my particular useful life index, or be mandated to take a vaccine in my paranoid, tin foil helmets delusion I feel will make me sound like a liberal.

I am old enough to recall when insurance was for major events. people paid medical bills like most of us pay our dentist. Healthcare today is really more like a prepaid approach which likely causes overuse/misuse by people without friends or family to talk to they go in to see ATC simply to have a caring human interaction.

Having said all the above I love my HMO, doctor, access, etc. Should you be one of the unhappy ones, consider the possibility you are simply lonely, incompetent, alienated libtards who want a frequent flyer card to visit ATC for free lol.
 GolfCoast
Joined: 3/17/2008
Msg: 6
Health care
Posted: 10/7/2009 7:56:34 AM
Natasha this recent series of innoculations is having an amazing impact on your clarity!!!And you are correct, the centralized, electronification of records is reason enough to reject this public option.

In an argument concerning efficiency over privacy, give me the privacy.

And I'm sorry saying libtards 4 times a day with scorn is one of my few remaining, consistent sources of joy
 GolfCoast
Joined: 3/17/2008
Msg: 7
Health care
Posted: 10/7/2009 9:13:39 AM
ATC I think the "public records" argument is one of government centric vs. health care centric. Put one's IRS record next to ones medical records and there is not a single bit of privacy remaining, nor ability to move about without government knowledge or permission.

I'm a cowboy, if I want someone to know something about me they can ask. And maybe I'll tell them. Or not. I work in knowledge management. Centralized means single point of failure (failure TBD).
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 8
view profile
History
Health care
Posted: 10/7/2009 9:56:36 AM

Isn't there some RICO laws that pertain to taking away rights?


The best way to deal with a government bent on taking away individual rights is to vote them all out, and then demand better--for ourselves, and, of ourselves. We can't expect the candidates to be better than the people are.
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 9
view profile
History
Health care
Posted: 10/7/2009 10:12:51 AM

but it doesn't talk about slavery or women's rights either


I'm not a constitutional expert, either, but I know a few things about it. The 13th Amendment prohibited slavery, and the 19th gave women full voting rights. And amendments to the Constitution are "valid to all Intents and Purposes" as parts of it, when they are ratified by three-fourths of the states. U.S.C., Art. V
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 10
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History
Health care
Posted: 10/7/2009 11:19:51 AM

It may take years for a Supreme Court case to emerge and then there is no guarantee we could reverse course.


True enough. The Court did invalidate the National Recovery Act--the centerpiece of the early New Deal--in 1935. But then it also upheld the clearly unconstitutional Social Security Act. Worst of all, when the Court did that, it knew the act was unconstitutional. It allowed the government's lawyer to persuade it to believe otherwise, though, because FDR's threat to pack the Court had intimidated it into rolling over. And for the next several decades, it pretty much kept rolling over for the New Deal, the Fair Deal, the New Frontier, and the Great Society.
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 11
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History
Health care
Posted: 10/7/2009 1:33:21 PM

they just voted the very "being" in.


That too will change. His party's on track for a big fall in the elections a year from now. Obama's already had his run, on his way to becoming an incompetent, one-term chump like Jimmy Carter. And come the day--good riddance.
 Elmenreich
Joined: 9/23/2009
Msg: 12
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History
Health care
Posted: 10/8/2009 10:15:54 AM
My big question is that why people think that a public option will kill private insurance, when Germany has had a public option since the 19th century, and it still has private insurance?
 fzrhusker
Joined: 10/8/2005
Msg: 13
Health care
Posted: 10/8/2009 10:18:48 AM
Most of the founding fathers and many others gave there lives and fortunes to create this country, as whole most of us today are spineless. How willing are you to take the fight to them.

Unless you are really sick everyone needs to drop their health insurance policies for 6 months. It is simple supply and demand. When there profits start to go through the floor they will listen. Impose some simple regulatory reforms and move on to the next subject.

How far will you go to say enough is enough?

Its about political power no health.
 GolfCoast
Joined: 3/17/2008
Msg: 14
Health care
Posted: 10/8/2009 10:30:55 AM
Ever notice how the lefties are always asking us the questions and we never need to ask them questions? Elmenreich if you don't understand something as simple as why we don't want to be like Germany, the UK, Canada, or frankly anyone else then you have a lot of history and culture to catch up on.

New subject/same subject. I have a confession to make. There have been times in my life I thought women and their voting habits were a large source of the mommsy/nanny state unpleasant drift of our country. But recently I've seen some remarkable examples, like the video above from the lady small busines owner, and from a mother's group that crosses income, race, and political party that very effectively articulates, albeit in a different way than I would, a very strong message of freedom. I think this is important because Dems taking women for granted, assuming 70% of their vote can be counted on. But lots of women have found their libertarian side and do not want their children, and society, burdened with the debts of a bunch of lefty deadbeats and their pets.

You go girls!
 Elmenreich
Joined: 9/23/2009
Msg: 15
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History
Health care
Posted: 10/8/2009 11:10:02 AM
Unless you are really sick everyone needs to drop their health insurance policies for 6 months. It is simple supply and demand. When there profits start to go through the floor they will listen. Impose some simple regulatory reforms and move on to the next subject.
I like your thinking, but that would just give the insurance companies an excuse to raise fees and not cover pre-existing conditions. I know that Kaiser will continue covering you and your pre-existing conditions at the same rate if you go back within 18 months, but other companies will use the break in coverage to find an excuse not to insure women who might get pregnant, people diagnosed with mental illnesses and various other things.


Ever notice how the lefties are always asking us the questions and we never need to ask them questions?
You don't ask questions because you're too stupid to ask questions. Don't tell me that Republicans never ask questions, because I was a Republican for 15 years, and I sure asked questions.


Elmenreich if you don't understand something as simple as why we don't want to be like Germany, the UK, Canada, or frankly anyone else then you have a lot of history and culture to catch up on.
I didn't necessarily say that I wanted a health care system like Germany's; I just poked a HUGE hole in your argument, in case you missed it. You keep saying that a public option will kill private health insurance, but despite having a public option since the 19th century, Germany still has private health insurance. Therefore, your argument is moot. I'm sure you do have reasons why you don't want a change in our health care system, but they're just not valid reasons, from what I've seen.


There have been times in my life I thought women and their voting habits were a large source of the mommsy/nanny state unpleasant drift of our country. But recently I've seen some remarkable examples, like the video above from the lady small busines owner, and from a mother's group that crosses income, race, and political party that very effectively articulates, albeit in a different way than I would, a very strong message of freedom. I think this is important because Dems taking women for granted, assuming 70% of their vote can be counted on. But lots of women have found their libertarian side and do not want their children, and society, burdened with the debts of a bunch of lefty deadbeats and their pets.
Anecdotal evidence is really inconsequential when we're talking about a hundred million people or so.
 fzrhusker
Joined: 10/8/2005
Msg: 16
Health care
Posted: 10/8/2009 11:23:42 AM

I like your thinking, but that would just give the insurance companies an excuse to raise fees and not cover pre-existing conditions. I know that Kaiser will continue covering you and your pre-existing conditions at the same rate if you go back within 18 months, but other companies will use the break in coverage to find an excuse not to insure women who might get pregnant, people diagnosed with mental illnesses and various other things.


Actually this would work right into the plan, millions of angry people in the streets calling for regulatory reform of health insurance because they are currently being screwed.

This is my point what are you willing to sacrifice and what will you do to get the change that is needed.

You ask why, I ask why not.
 Elmenreich
Joined: 9/23/2009
Msg: 17
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History
Health care
Posted: 10/8/2009 1:39:43 PM

Actually this would work right into the plan, millions of angry people in the streets calling for regulatory reform of health insurance because they are currently being screwed.

This is my point what are you willing to sacrifice and what will you do to get the change that is needed.

You ask why, I ask why not.
Well, I didn't ask why. In fact I understood the concept and the reasoning behind it, and I made that pretty plain in my post. Please read it again before responding to this post; sometimes I use complex sentence structure, and people such as yourself mistake what I'm writing. I said that there's simply too much to lose for those millions of people who have health insurance. Instead of restating this, I point to my post above, which I hope you'll re-read.

Moreover, the health care companies don't have enough to lose. They could stand to lose a few million customers if the alternative is a public option in which they could lose tens of millions of customers (or hundreds of millions, if you believe what some idiot Republicans have to say about the matter). It's simply impossible to get enough people to follow your well-meaning but hare-brained scheme to make it worthwhile.
 GolfCoast
Joined: 3/17/2008
Msg: 18
Health care
Posted: 10/8/2009 2:32:24 PM
I agree with everything Pirate said with the exception of the following:

I don't believe this is just another bloated program. This program, and it's sense of urgency, are generational and structural. Why else would you want the bill without review, debate, transparency?

1. Generational in that the baby boomers have arrived at the time and place lonely futurists and demographers have warned about for decades...time to collect on their promised SS and healthcare benefits.

2. Structural. We are poor, even broke. There are fewer children than parents, fewer payors than payees if you will. Many unions unfunded liabilites exceed any prospect of "earning" their way out of the corner, i.e., GM is a retirement fund with a sideline in making cars. States, California is exhibit A of a failed state. Too many promises to too many people and too few willing and able to foot the bill. I read recently 15,000 millionaires (don't ask me to define that) have left California in the past 12 months which has noticeably and significantly impacted tax revenue. Dems will cry "raise the tax rates", tax payers will respond by increased out hemorraging.

So what do we do? I am against national healthcare because it is fundamentally a lie told by liars. The plan is not to fix insurance comapnies or to reduce costs in an effiiency sense, but to create a semblance of a system as we continue to crash from points #1 and #2 above. if we wanted to fix insurers, or the cost of insurance we'd simply allow buying health insurance across state lines. So then for example it might cost a 40 year old male $1,100 a month for a policy in Mass., in New Hampshire the same policy costs $300. Why is Mass so high? The government has "reformed" the system. How? They've made the 40 year old male part of a pool that pays maternity benefits, just in case I guess. They've loaded it up with ever misfit, crackhead, 1/2 completed transgender , etc. It's not an insurance company problem, it's a government problem.

Now frankly nothing would make me happier than to put all these lame libtards and their pets on a single payer system, it's the unintended consequences of impacting me should Iever get sick. Frankly standing in a queue with this bunch of whiny, malingering losers is a fate almost unimaginable.
 fzrhusker
Joined: 10/8/2005
Msg: 19
Health care
Posted: 10/9/2009 1:17:27 AM

sometimes I use complex sentence structure, and people such as yourself mistake what I'm writing.


Typical Elitist libtard response


I said that there's simply too much to lose for those millions of people who have health insurance.


You prove my point, we have become a country of wussies who are not willing to do what it takes.

Yes please dumb it down for me in the future as I only have 3rd grade edumacation.

The why or why not was rhetorical.
 cncgandolf
Joined: 7/29/2007
Msg: 20
view profile
History
Health care
Posted: 10/10/2009 3:34:00 AM
"5) Give illegal aliens benefits"

This is the one objection to health care reform that really ticks me off.

LISTEN UP

ILLEGAL ALIENS RECEIVE HEALTH CARE UNDER THE EXISTING SYSTEM

Nothing being done will increase their benefits. Republican administrations have always taken care of the illegals cause that is where their sponsoring corporations get their cheap uninsured labor.
 cncgandolf
Joined: 7/29/2007
Msg: 21
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History
Health care - ANTI TRUST EXEMPTION?
Posted: 10/10/2009 3:35:50 AM
"Why didn't they repeal this law years ago and lower our premiums?"

Because those who have become very wealthy don't want the law repealed. It would risk lowering the incomes and profits of the very wealthy.
 cncgandolf
Joined: 7/29/2007
Msg: 22
view profile
History
Health care
Posted: 10/10/2009 3:42:40 AM
"So then for example it might cost a 40 year old male $1,100 a month for a policy in Mass., in New Hampshire the same policy costs $300. "

What's the risk of the 40 year old male being the paternal parent of the child resulting from the pregnancy? Why shouldn't males pay for pregnancies... they are half the cause of them.
 fzrhusker
Joined: 10/8/2005
Msg: 23
Health care
Posted: 10/10/2009 5:30:52 AM

LISTEN UP,ILLEGAL ALIENS RECEIVE HEALTH CARE UNDER THE EXISTING SYSTEM


9 billion of the 24 billion that Cali is in debt goes to provide for them, cut em off.
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 24
Health care
Posted: 10/10/2009 8:41:55 AM
Frankly standing in a queue with this bunch of whiny, malingering losers is a fate almost unimaginable.


Typical elitist contard response. All too typical and sadly, rididculously prevalent to one degree or another.

Hey PH, how much loyalty does an attitude like that buy for our founding principles that y'all claim to love more than life itself?

These people vote and right now they are in ascendency, so y'all might just do better to explain your perspective in civil tones. 'Cuz if you don't, and you do lose your precious liberty as a result, your retarded ****ing bullshit attitude will be just as much to blame as the ignorance and foolishness of the left.

If you can't see that, then I guess I'll see you in the USSR. One thing though, I and my libtard friends will be at the head of the line and y'all will be the ones who are whining--and I won't have a damn bit of sympathy for you then because you will have brought it on yourselves.

Think about it, because GC, that's all the **** you do: whine.

PH, FZ, Match, and MD, y'all seem credible and thoughtful. Can't you guys get these divisive bastards on your "team" to comport themselves with some semblance of dignity? It's jerks like that this that make people stop listening to _anything_ you might say--no matter how sensible. Talk about wussies, this flavor of PC bullshit whining is just as offensive as the other.
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 25
Health care
Posted: 10/10/2009 8:46:23 AM
I said that there's simply too much to lose for those millions of people who have health insurance.


You prove my point, we have become a country of wussies who are not willing to do what it takes.


Well, in all fairness this is a pretty radical step. If it were me, I'd form a health-care co-op first, and then invite everyone who hates the idea of govt. health care to join. When I had about, oh 5 million members, we'd start talking about rate and procedure adjustments.

Hell, we don't even need to provide the care. We just need a war chest of $5M and a list of names to go with it at $1 per head. There's a nonprofit out there that would be willing to act as a service organization for a health-care mutual benefit society.
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