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 rearguard*2
Joined: 2/8/2008
Msg: 4
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pre-nupsPage 1 of 4    (1, 2, 3, 4)
Well, the easy solution to this issue is simply restrict your marriage prospects to partners who have considerably more than you do in terms of assets. Marry rich, and in most places you have nothing to worry about.....in theory.

Lately, at least in Canada, courts are re-writing "final" divorce decrees and throwing out pre-nups based on all kinds of tenuous logic. One partner claims that when the agreement was negotiated and signed their existed a disadvantageous power relationship between the parties which is then used to argue that it was an unfair contract. Of course, the logical extension of all this is never brought up.

Of course, when one person asks another to marry, there is always an imbalance of power in the contract. The asker is at the mercy of the asked. Same with a pre-nup.

The ultimate issue I see with all this is that with time public norms change, and courts try to reflect current public norms which are often radically different from those in vogue when the original contracts are signed. The "final" divorce decree or the pre-nup may not be worth the paper it is written on within a very short time, so in the end you are just taking your chances whenever you chose to entangle yourself with the legal system in any way.....
 U make it entertaining
Joined: 7/17/2009
Msg: 6
pre-nups
Posted: 10/9/2009 6:09:00 AM

would you want a pre-nup


Absolutely!

I went into my second marriage with a pre-nup, and now that that relationship has ended the pre-nup has been honoured.

Makes sence to me.
 amethyst10616
Joined: 7/23/2009
Msg: 8
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Posted: 10/9/2009 7:42:56 AM
There are plenty of financial considerations to remarriage and a prenup could be the smart thing to do. Farceur, you seem to be a man of integrity, but there are so many who are not. You might not take anything, but other people might.

When people remarry, they do so with the hope that this time is forever, but the stats are that second marriages often do fail. Why should anyone have to start all over again? There are a number of issues with kids from previous marriages and then any that you create together.

At the time of the marriage, I think you build what you choose together and if the marriage does not work out, then you split only the marital assets. What one brought in initially, they leave with that and 1/2 of what was acquired during the marriage, including debt if it was jointly acquired.

I would do a prenup and be happy to do so. Plus, those with considerable financial assets would be more assured that the person who is marrying them is with them because of love, not because of what they might gain financially.
 tinkerbellcgy
Joined: 9/17/2005
Msg: 10
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Posted: 10/9/2009 8:25:09 AM
I spent many years working in the area of divorce law and because of some of what I saw during that time, I would absolutely sign a pre-nup. I may not have much but what I have earned throughout my life is what I would require to continue to live out my remaining days. To walk away from a marriage without even that small financial cushion, would mean that I would be nothing more than a burden on society.


Lately, at least in Canada, courts are re-writing "final" divorce decrees and throwing out pre-nups based on all kinds of tenuous logic.

Rearguard, what province are you referring to in this quote? I have not heard of this happening in the western provinces.
 rearguard*2
Joined: 2/8/2008
Msg: 11
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Posted: 10/9/2009 8:27:02 AM
That avant-garde locus of all liberal thought, Ontario.....
 amethyst10616
Joined: 7/23/2009
Msg: 12
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Posted: 10/9/2009 8:31:21 AM
I do not think that asking for a prenup conveys mistrust in the person, more in the instition of marriage itself. What does it matter really, if you are marrying for love, whether or not you will gain financially from the marriage if it should dissolve?

I have acquired assets over the years and believe me, I would want to have one if I married anyone. All that I have before the marriage is not up for community property settlement should it dissolve. Nor should what he brings into a marriage be up for me to get half of, what is right about that?

For those of you who are offended at the idea of one, why, really? Mistrust is the result of deeper feelings and usually those are insecurity.

So many lost half of their retirement accounts in their first divorces and the recession has costs them half of that. They would be foolish not to protect what is left, IMO.
 rearguard*2
Joined: 2/8/2008
Msg: 13
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Posted: 10/9/2009 8:52:20 AM
Ah, Pheobe, you are truly a woman after my own heart......
 amethyst10616
Joined: 7/23/2009
Msg: 14
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Posted: 10/9/2009 8:58:23 AM

Nameless bureaucrats who established " the law", will not determine my lifestyle. Nor will the courts. Nor will a man get half of what he didn't earn. Not if I can help it. Nor, do I want half of what he's accumulated or earned. Fair is fair.
Any man, in my age group, who doesn't understand my position, is not the man for me. I'd rather stay alone with at least, a roof over my head and food in my fridge, rather than jeopardize my financial position, at this stage of the game. As I said earlier, it would be a foolish decision, on my part, not to have a pre-nup.


Amen, Pheobe! I feel just as you do. It is a wise person who takes care of the realities of life. I cannot imagine being so foolish as to trust my financial well-being to someone else at this point in my life. At 51, I have a number of working years ahead of me, but I could not recover if I lost half of what I have now and hope to live with dignity or worse yet, need my girls to help take care of me. A man worth marrying would not ask me to risk that.
 woobytoodsday
Joined: 12/13/2006
Msg: 16
pre-nups
Posted: 10/9/2009 10:19:42 AM
I have no particular need to ask for one, but wouldn't be offended if asked to sign one. Might keep the kids from objecting (his, not mine). Near the beginning of this relationship when we were talking possibilities of the shape of our future, he asked if I felt a need to be married. I said not necessarily, but all else being equal that was certainly my preference. (Old family tradition, lol!) And offered a pre-nup if he so wished. His response was, Nah. In for a dime, in for a dollar. So that was settled without too much of a problem.

Perhaps if you *don't* feel this way, you should just skip coupling with that person?

 woobytoodsday
Joined: 12/13/2006
Msg: 17
pre-nups
Posted: 10/9/2009 10:47:19 AM
deac ~~ absolutely! In our case, he's selling the house he lives in, and dividing the proceeds with the Ex; we'll be living here. As I said, got no problems with him disposing of his assets any way he chooses. He wishes to travel a good deal more than I do, or am able to. That'll have to be his dime. Which doesn't seem to bother him. I've told my son I want him to have a life estate here if he wants it. He's said that he couldn't see living here without me, so. . . .

Each couple has to work it out based on their own strengths and deficits; their own relationship and trust. Most important, I think, is talking about it early and openly.

 zippytwo
Joined: 6/7/2006
Msg: 18
pre-nups
Posted: 10/9/2009 12:53:02 PM
Yes, I think it's wise to have some sort of agreement should the relationship not work out. I went into a relationship with nothing written about the financial aspect. He promised me he would support me as he didn't want me to work. I learned pretty quickly that he who has the money, has the power. When the relationship didn't work out, I was left with nothing. All my savings were gone as I had to support myself for two years while trying to get a job.

To put it bluntly, he lost nothing, I lost everything. If there is a next time, I'll be much wiser and not put myself in such a predicament. I see nothing wrong with a person protecting themselves financially especially in this economy where good jobs are so hard to come by. I am a survivor though. And I'm back!

I'm not looking for a handout or to take someone's money, far from it. I'm just looking to protect what I have worked so hard for.

 rearguard*2
Joined: 2/8/2008
Msg: 19
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Posted: 10/9/2009 1:19:17 PM
Far as I know, Quebec is about the only jurisdiction that still lets people decide on their arrangements, as long as you do NOT get married. Even here, however, some poor woman who finds that living in the multi-million dollar house she was given on $39,000/month is impossible, and is going after her ex to have a pre-nup settlement thrown out so she will be able to continue to live comfortably with her 2 kids, chauffeur, nanny and maids, etc.

The result of that case may be an end to freedom here as well.

Really, I feel sorry for her plight. She was originally a beach bimbo with little education down in Brazil before she landed her ex. Clearly she has not been treated fairly here, and the courts are all ears......
 rearguard*2
Joined: 2/8/2008
Msg: 22
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Posted: 10/9/2009 1:52:07 PM
Oh, let's just face up to the fact that anything other than an empty, meaningless physical encounter between 2 ships passing in the night is just too financially risky at our age, and party, party, party!
 Molly Maude
Joined: 9/11/2008
Msg: 23
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Posted: 10/9/2009 1:57:09 PM
I believe I wouldn't want a pre-nup ... IF I were to marry ... which I also cannot envision myself doing! since I'm apparently not very good at marriage ... I suspect I should just avoid it ... (which is sad, actually) ...

during my two marriages and one relatively long term relationship ... at the end of these three involvements ... I was just so GLAD to be FREE that I left with relatively little but the children and the children's belongings ... I gave my exes whatever they wanted just to get out ... my 1st husband and I argued over the children (we both wanted them) ... my 2nd didn't bother so I won by default ...

a pre-nup wouldn't have helped ... on the contrary, I believe it would have hindered my escapes ...

AND ... I have been/am on good terms with my ex-husbands, partly due to my just LEAVING without quibbling over who got which ...
 rearguard*2
Joined: 2/8/2008
Msg: 25
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Posted: 10/9/2009 2:40:37 PM
Well, takes 3 to 5 years to get back into a good relationship following a divorce. Court fights over divorce settlements take 3 to 5 years as well, at least up here. So, if you spend a extra 5 years quibbling about money, it should at least compensate for the loneliness and isolation involved.

To my mind, you can always get more stuff and money, but you can't get a single day more of life...
 amethyst10616
Joined: 7/23/2009
Msg: 29
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Posted: 10/9/2009 3:49:59 PM
Morningsong, I wish that were true in all cases, that everything will just take care of itself, but that is just not so. I was an accountant for twenty years before becoming a teacher and let me tell you, I could tell you some stories. I am just realistic and because I do not want to be dependent on my kids when I retire, I am going to protect everything I have earned to date. Each of us are certainly entitled to our opinion and one is as valid as the next. I am just too practical to go into a relationship blindly now. It is too huge for me to feel secure in my future to do that.
 DivineBovine
Joined: 5/13/2005
Msg: 30
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Posted: 10/9/2009 4:55:57 PM

...since you're a fellow Ontarian, you must realize that if people merely "co-habit" together, without a "co-habitation agreement", the other person is entitled to 50 % of the other person's assets. I'm not sure how long the period of co-habitation must be, for this to apply? Anyone out there know the answer to this question?


it's two years.
 sk1960
Joined: 8/11/2008
Msg: 31
pre-nups
Posted: 10/9/2009 5:57:35 PM
its really tough to think about a whether or not to have a pre-nup. One can assume you are going into the relationship because you trust and love that person. But where does the trust line end? Would you trust them with your life - but not your money? But if you think about the rate of divorce - then why wouldn't you think about protecting your future - especially for those of us who are older and don't have the lifetime to recover financially - again....

I lost so much after the demise of my first marriage (ended in 91) - It took me almost 10 years to get back to a secure footing - and yes I think I do worry about being in that situation again. I recently began seeing a real nice guy - who really doesn't have much to his name - he works hard, and gives a fair bit to help support his ex and his 12 year old son ... So how can I fault him for that? But in the same breath - I own a home (almost) - I drive a very nice car - I have a job that has ensured that I can retire comfortably at age 58..... Where will that leave us when I can retire - but he can't? He is a great guy who makes me laugh, who has an incredible heart, ..... I guess time will only tell - but for me - if it gets to the point where we move forward - I think I might be asking for a prenup .... for my own piece of mind....
 woobytoodsday
Joined: 12/13/2006
Msg: 34
pre-nups
Posted: 10/9/2009 7:49:49 PM
Don't quite know how to phrase this to avoid being hurtful, but I do kinda need to know. Do none of us *actually* have a klew as to the character of the peeps we marry/move in with? Or we know, and just don't giva damn?

There *were* no pre-nups in 1963, when I got married ~~ but I *did* observe that the man I was marrying cared more about money than any other single thing in his life -- maybe even the next ten things in his life. What he wanted at the divorce was absolutely no surprise ~~ I could have told you that six months before we married. My error, and it was a biggie, was to believe you could love someone into relaxing, blooming. You can't.

So, as I see it, it isn't a case of I love you so much now I'd never cheat you, as it is: am I honest in the world, am I fair, do I cheat anyone in any way? If the answer to that is, no, then worrying about a pre-nup is pointless. If the answer is that you don't know, get a pre-nup. Or don't get married.

 amethyst10616
Joined: 7/23/2009
Msg: 35
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Posted: 10/9/2009 7:58:22 PM
Wooby, can you ever know for sure? Isn't marriage a partnership of blind faith even when you think you really, really know that person?

Like you, I thought I could love someone enough when I was younger to change him into what I wanted him to be. To be honest, if it had not been for one major flaw, he was everything I could have wanted in a man and I loved him very dearly. At 19, I found the courage to break off our engagement just two weeks before the wedding because I did not think I could live with him and matter more than anything else. As it happens, we know each other still and his need for financial success has mattered most. Sad, really sad that people do not matter more than money to some.
 Moonchild51
Joined: 3/11/2007
Msg: 39
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Posted: 10/9/2009 8:43:37 PM
Well after having supported my ex with the children for 18 years and getting the proverbial "ripoff" when we divorced? Damn tootin if ever I was to live with someone again there would be a pre-nup in place. Most of what I have is promised to my two children. They have been with me for the rough ride of financial recovery after DaddyO took what the law allowed his lazy arse! lol...tis only fair. I have worked hard for what little I have...
 ninjaeleven
Joined: 7/15/2009
Msg: 40
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Posted: 10/9/2009 10:55:10 PM
Absolutely. Things change and the one that loved you so much suddenly no longer does and then theirs the attorney putting BS in her head and a judge or just a commissioner that decides what to do with your assets.

You'd have to bea an idiot not to have a pre-nup, especially if you have already been screwed once.
 WalksOnWater2
Joined: 5/19/2009
Msg: 41
pre-nups
Posted: 10/10/2009 12:37:47 AM
It's alright, I'll sign it if you sign it!
Some people feel vulnerable after having been chewed up to oblivion by ex's, if that will give them peace of mind, it's all worth the trouble...

 StevieCashmere
Joined: 4/22/2009
Msg: 42
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Posted: 10/10/2009 4:07:08 AM
Self-Defeating-
A verbal agreement of 50/50 should suffice, though it's importnat that both parties should have some sense of protection from the law

Marriage is for life, having a document means it will expire and there is already doubt

Though, It's also importnat though why this came into being as women (as they tend to be) whose husbands decided to terminate were on the worng side of the law and left penniless, once the children grew up - this came into the public consciouness is the 60s, 70s, 80s,

Altenatively...Don't Get Married
~sc~
 rearguard*2
Joined: 2/8/2008
Msg: 43
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Posted: 10/10/2009 6:02:12 AM

The actual up-to-date text of the Family Law Act in Ontario is available at the web site below.te text of the Family Law Act in Ontario is available at the web site below.


Okay, I read through this document and was absolutely terrified when I finished it. Why anybody would get married, or even co-habitate under these conditions is completely beyond me. I presume that so many people do so because they do not know or understand the legal situation they are getting themselves into.

Nothing romantic about that document in any way......
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