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Show ALL Forums  > Politics  > Did the President LIE on September 9, 2009 ... in his speech to Congr      Home login  
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 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 1
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Did the President LIE on September 9, 2009 ... in his speech to Congress?Page 1 of 4    (1, 2, 3, 4)
Okay ... I guess it's time someone finally starts a thread about the famous "lie" the President supposedly told. So here it is.

On Sept. 9, 2009 at 8 PM, President OBAMA ... was in the process of making a speech to Congress when someone rudely yelled out, "You lie!"

I have posted a link that will take you to the actual text of the speech and I have checked ... about midway down the 4th page is where one can find the statement that President OBAMA was in the process of making when the incident occurred.

There has been a lot of off topic ranting in another thread about whether or not the President actually lied. I say he didn't.

Please note ... this thread is not about Joe Wilson ... there is another thread already posted for that purpose.

This thread is about whether or not the President lied when he said what is quoted below ...

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/10/us/politics/10obama.text.html

From Page 4 ...

There are also those who claim that our reform effort will insure illegal immigrants. This, too, is false – the reforms I'm proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally.

Discussion ...
 geeleebee
Joined: 5/26/2008
Msg: 2
Did the President LIE on September 9, 2009 ... in his speech to Congress?
Posted: 10/21/2009 6:02:27 PM
Damn, Cotter...can you hear the crickets?


There are also those who claim that our reform effort will insure illegal
immigrants.
This, too, is false – the reforms I'm proposing would
not apply to those who are here illegally.


Seems fairly clear--'illegal immigrants', 'reforms would not apply', 'this, too, is false'.
The reforms would not insure illegal immigrants.
Where's the argument?
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 3
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Did the President LIE on September 9, 2009 ... in his speech to Congress?
Posted: 10/21/2009 6:09:08 PM
^^^
Where's the argument?
Ya ... I don't know.

I think it's clear ... "The reforms I'm proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally."

I just don't see how someone can consider that a lie?
 EarlzP
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 4
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Did the President LIE on September 9, 2009 ... in his speech to Congress?
Posted: 10/21/2009 6:10:13 PM

There are also those who claim that our reform effort will insure illegal immigrants. This, too, is false – the reforms I'm proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally.


President Obama did not lie
 CountIbli
Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 5
Did the President LIE on September 9, 2009 ... in his speech to Congress?
Posted: 10/21/2009 9:15:47 PM


Seems fairly clear--'illegal immigrants', 'reforms would not apply', 'this, too, is false'.
The reforms would not insure illegal immigrants.
Where's the argument?


I guess it's a lie if you think telling only half the truth is a lie. There was a provision in the bill that specifically exempted illegal immigrants. The problem is that there's nothing in the bill that allows for the determination of who is an illegal immigrant. Repuglicans tried to add language that would give the provision teeth, but they were defeated by the Demoncrats. The bill leaves itself wide open for fraud by illegals. It's a great lesson in how to deceive people without saying anything that's false.
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 6
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Did the President LIE on September 9, 2009 ... in his speech to Congress?
Posted: 10/21/2009 9:19:21 PM

And yes he lied about the illegal immigrants and the health care issue on 09/09/09.
Where is the link that proves it? Just stating it ... does not make it so. Prove it.
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 7
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Did the President LIE on September 9, 2009 ... in his speech to Congress?
Posted: 10/21/2009 9:23:12 PM

There was a provision in the bill that specifically exempted illegal immigrants.
Repuglicans tried to add language that would give the provision teeth, but they were defeated by the Demoncrats.
Show proof that it WAS in the bill and got thrown out. When did that happen? When did the Democrats defeat it?

Shouldn't be too hard if you have read it somewhere ... then there should be a link for it.

Prove it
 CountIbli
Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 8
Did the President LIE on September 9, 2009 ... in his speech to Congress?
Posted: 10/21/2009 9:32:36 PM


Show proof that it WAS in the bill and got thrown out. When did that happen? When did the Democrats defeat it?

Shouldn't be too hard if you have read it somewhere ... then there should be a link for it.

Prove it


The Repuglicans never got the anti-fraud measures put into the bill. The Demoncrats defeated their attempts.

http://www.factcheck.org/2009/09/obamas-health-care-speech/
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 9
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Did the President LIE on September 9, 2009 ... in his speech to Congress?
Posted: 10/21/2009 9:52:35 PM

The Repuglicans never got the anti-fraud measures put into the bill. The Demoncrats defeated their attempts.
First I found the following which is what I thought you wanted me to see ... thank you for that.

It clearly said the President was not a liar.
Obama was correct when he said his plan wouldn’t insure illegal immigrants; the House bill expressly forbids giving subsidies to those who are in the country illegally. Conservative critics complain that the bill lacks an enforcement mechanism, but that hardly makes the president a liar.


Then I found the following ... which does back up what you said about it being voted down along party lines ...
The president is correct: The House bill contains a section (Sec. 246) titled "NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS," which states: "Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States."

However, conservative critics object to a lack of specific enforcement measures in the bill. They argue that the lack of a specific verification mechanism constitutes a loophole that would allow illegal immigrants to get benefits despite the legal prohibition. Republican Rep. Dean Heller of Nevada proposed an amendment to the bill that would have required the use of the Systematic Alien Verification for Entitlements program to check the immigration status of anyone applying for federal coverage or affordability credits. SAVE is the program used by Medicaid and similar entitlement programs. That amendment was voted down along party lines by the House Ways and Means Committee.


But then it continued ... and towards the end of the paragraph I note that it says something about Wilson being out of bounds to call the President's statement a lie. Of course, that's based on what the following paragraph sheds light on ...
Republicans have a point here: More could be done to enforce the ban. But it’s worth remembering that, as a spokesperson for the American Immigration Lawyers Association told us, attempting to get a health care credit would have legal repercussions. "Making a fraudulent claim to an entitlement program when you’re not actually entitled to it would have serious consequences for any person," the spokesperson told us, "but especially if it’s considered a false claim to citizenship, that would have serious immigration consequences that could ultimately lead to deportation." And Rep. Wilson certainly was out of bounds to call the president’s statement a "lie." He later issued a statement apologizing for his "inappropriate and regrettable" comments.


Sooooo ... it was not a lie.They have their bases covered ... they know it will be next to impossible for for "illegals" to obtain health care credit. I imagine that "illegals" may still try to use the Emergency Rooms as they have in the past, but it will be very apparent and much easier to track as the Emergency Rooms will no longer be so crowded with so many of our "legals" who now have to frequent the Emergency Rooms for their own health care. They will be able to afford to actually go to a doctor. Imagine such a luxury!!!
 CountIbli
Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 10
Did the President LIE on September 9, 2009 ... in his speech to Congress?
Posted: 10/21/2009 10:19:36 PM

Sooooo ... it was not a lie.


Right. It was more like a half truth. Calling him a liar has more snap than calling him a half-truther.

I love what the representative from AILA says: "Making a fraudulent claim to an entitlement program when you’re not actually entitled to it would have serious consequences for any person but especially if it’s considered a false claim to citizenship, that would have serious immigration consequences that could ultimately lead to deportation."

Uh, shouldn't all illegals be deported anyway? So they get deported and then a couple days later they're back in the US illegally. As a bonus the US taxpayer got to pay for their health care.
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 11
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Did the President LIE on September 9, 2009 ... in his speech to Congress?
Posted: 10/21/2009 10:57:43 PM

Uh, shouldn't all illegals be deported anyway?
Of course they should, but I sure don't want to be the one who rips the babies away from the nursing mothers in order to accomplish that.

Also, we have some very different "illegals" here as well ... often students who have forgotten to renew their study visas. They usually are no burden whatsoever on society and so we'd probably have to give them a chance to renew their visas before just shipping them out of here.

But in the end, it seems to me this medical bill could be good for us in many ways ... it will make available to all of us "affordable" health care and perhaps weed out the "illegals" that all are complaining about.

Like I have said, it's been my experience (working in the health care field) that the "illegals" actually seldom seek medical care in any way close to the frequency our own citizens run to the Emergency Room ... because they know they will be found out. But when our citizens all have viable medical cards, it will stand out like a sore thumb when someone walks into the ER without one.

We will not be able to get around treating all emergencies, but once the so-called "emergency" is treated and the patient is out of danger ... if it can be established, that they are an "illegal" ... off they go!!!
 EarlzP
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 12
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Did the President LIE on September 9, 2009 ... in his speech to Congress?
Posted: 10/22/2009 12:48:13 PM

It is my belief now that President Obama knows there is no way to keep illegals from getting health care. By saying that they "will not" but knowing or believing that they will, is at best a half truth.

Bush lied. and Obama is lying.


President Obama did not say illegals will not get health care, he said they will not be included in the reform bill, he did not lie.
 Imported_labor
Joined: 3/7/2008
Msg: 13
Did the President LIE on September 9, 2009 ... in his speech to Congress?
Posted: 10/22/2009 5:29:05 PM

It is my belief now that President Obama knows there is no way to keep illegals from getting health care. By saying that they "will not" but knowing or believing that they will, is at best a half truth


This is about the issue of prevention of crime. No president has been blamed for prevention of crime before. Why would you start doing that now?

Let me ask this other question: Did you blame, and do you continue blaming George W. Bush for not preventing all the crimes that occurred during his administration, including the 9/11 attacks?

I will repeat what I have said somewhere else about the demand that the president is responsible for prevention of crimes. Expecting that president Obama prevents all criminals from breaking the laws is something that goes beyond the realm of the impossible. Do you blame God for not preventing the people from breaking the rules that he gave to Moses? And God should have known better, in my opinion. So you want president Obama to do better than God? That sounds blasfemous to me.

My guess is that you don't care about anything anyone has to say about the issue of prevention. You just want to blast president Obama, and only president Obama.

Do I need to wonder why?
 EarlzP
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 14
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Did the President LIE on September 9, 2009 ... in his speech to Congress?
Posted: 10/23/2009 8:27:48 AM

President Obama did not say illegals will not get health care, he said they will not be included in the reform bill, he did not lie.


Earl, seriously. Saying that they will not be included on the reform bill, but knowing that they will get health care is at best a half truth.

where I come from, that is a lie.

The whole truth and nothing but the truth.


Illegals have been entitled to health care since 1985, where have you been that you don't know or is it an inconvienance for you to know? If you do know then pretending you don't know is at best a half truth, what is a half truth where you come from?

Putting your spin on the wording does not make it a fact, what is a fact is that illegals are not going to be entitled to health care on the reform bill= President Obama did not LIE and those who accuse him of lying or either uninformed or distorting the truth
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 15
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Did the President LIE on September 9, 2009 ... in his speech to Congress?
Posted: 10/23/2009 8:56:27 AM

Are illegals going to get health care under Obamacare? Yes
How will that happen?

Will they be paying into it?

If they can't pay into it, how can they get care?


Are they going to do it illegally? Yes
How will that happen?

Will they then be paying into it "illegally?

If they can't pay into it "legally", then they can't pay into it. And if they don't pay into it, they can't get care.
 geeleebee
Joined: 5/26/2008
Msg: 16
Did the President LIE on September 9, 2009 ... in his speech to Congress?
Posted: 10/23/2009 9:06:36 AM

Are illegals going to get health care under Obamacare? Yes

They get emergency room care now, under 'Bushcare'.
Where were you during the past eight years?


Are they going to do it illegally? Yes

As some do now.
It's the law that they must be treated.

How would you like that to work in the ER?

Guy comes in with chest pains--obviously Mexican-looking (whatever that means)--does he have his insurance card with him? No.
Uh oh.
Deny treatment until he can provide an insurance card?
How does that jive with the Hippocratic Oath?

Baby comes in unconscious--no insurance card.
Nuts.
Sorry, but the dude two posts up says we have to deny treatment.

Your issue isn't with Obama, it's with the law that says people who go to the ER must be treated.

No, the president didn't lie.
 Imported_labor
Joined: 3/7/2008
Msg: 17
Did the President LIE on September 9, 2009 ... in his speech to Congress?
Posted: 10/23/2009 10:41:47 AM

This is about the issue of prevention of crime. No president has been blamed for prevention of crime before. Why would you start doing that now?


umm, no.....this is about lying.


This is a dishonest post, at best! Your entire post (message # 20) is clear evidence that you aren't a serious poster, just a hack that likes to throw sh.t around but can handle a serious argument.

[Just saying that I need reading comprehension help without responding to the issues that I raised isn't gonna cut it here. In fact, although English is a foreign language for me, I would put my reading comprehension in English against yours on a test anytime, and then we can do it in Spanish (the language of the illegal aliens that you hate so much.) I will put some money down too.]

Let me prove to you that you are dishonest and incapable of handling a discussion seriously. You quoted me in the above paragraph, and then retorted saying that the issue was about lying. Except that you left out the words from your post that I was responding to. I will repost that part here so that everyone can see your cheap trick:



It is my belief now that President Obama knows there is no way to keep illegals from getting health care. By saying that they "will not" but knowing or believing that they will, is at best a half truth
(that was you)

This is about the issue of prevention of crime. No president has been blamed for prevention of crime before. Why would you start doing that now?
(this was me)

That should be very clear now that I was referring to the point that you are accusing the president of lying because he can't prevent "illegals" from getting health care.

Leaving your words out and accusing me of not understanding the issue is just dishonest, pure and simple.

Deal with the issues with intellectual integrity and we may take you for serious debater. As of now you are just a nuissance. Very soon nobody will notice you.
 msquared
Joined: 8/31/2004
Msg: 18
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Did the President LIE on September 9, 2009 ... in his speech to Congress?
Posted: 10/23/2009 10:45:41 AM
If they do currently get it, why is it that fact doesn't bother you, but it does bother you that they will continue to get it under Obama's plan?
 geeleebee
Joined: 5/26/2008
Msg: 19
Did the President LIE on September 9, 2009 ... in his speech to Congress?
Posted: 10/23/2009 10:50:52 AM
Thank you for seeing the light in President Obama's lie!

Yes, illegals have access to health care currently.

So, unless there is something done to the current situation, they will have access to healthcare under the HCR.

So, it is my opinion, that the President is being disingenuous to make it appear that the illegal aliens would not have access to the proposed Healthcare. They will have the same access that they currently enjoy.....at our expense.

Oh yeah, nice fear mongering with the baby example......


No one wins under that scenario.

And no one is fear-mongering. If some people had their way, that baby would be refused service.
The baby now has 'health care' by way of the ER. Same as he had under Bushcare, and Clintoncare...
Talk about being disingenuous--are YOU going to send the baby away from the ER because he doesn't have an insurance card?

Two issues:
1. Health Care needs to be reformed so that American citizens have access to consistent care.
2. The situation with illegal immigrants receiving health care in the ER.

Some of us on the 'fix health care' side of things are focused on ensuring that American citizens have accessable , affordable health care on a consistant basis.

Then there are those on the 'yeah, but those illegals are getting ER treatment right now' side who are fixated on ensuring that no one without an insurange card gets health care.

Fear mongering... ...'Death Panels'... ...now THAT was fear mongering...
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 20
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Did the President LIE on September 9, 2009 ... in his speech to Congress?
Posted: 10/23/2009 7:44:11 PM

So, unless there is something done to the current situation, they will have access to healthcare under the HCR.
Care in the Emergency Room that is not COVERED by any insurance today does not qualify to be covered under the OBAMA HCR.

The OBAMA HCR is a health plan that will allow "legals" to get insurance. It will not cover those who enter any Emergency Room who do not have insurance ... not even a "legal". Since there are going to (no doubt) be "legals" who will refuse to get any kind of health insurance ... people still have to be treated. So there are all kinds of other government programs that reimburse the hospitals.

Some hospitals get government grants for the purpose ... some ahead of it ever happening and some get it when they present the proof that they treated "uninsured indigents". Those programs have been in place for many many years and would continue as such ... totally unrelated to the current OBAMA HCR health plan.

That's why "illegals" that are falling into that category today ... will still not be involved in the OBAMA HCR health plan. Those of us who work in the health care field already know that ... we deal with it daily.
 Imported_labor
Joined: 3/7/2008
Msg: 21
Did the President LIE on September 9, 2009 ... in his speech to Congress?
Posted: 10/24/2009 2:43:22 PM
Tell the truth.


You wouldn't know the truth even if it hit you on the face. This applies to all the instances where you have used the word.

You are saying the president lied because he knows that the "illegal aliens" receive medical care and there is nothing that he can do to prevent them from accesing the health system "illegally" under the new law, if and when Congress sends him the bill that he asked them to present to him for his signature. That is an idiotic argument in the extreme. No rational person would even think of using that argument to accuse someone of lying based on that.

No law can prevent someone intending to violate it from doing so. Why do you think that the corporate interests violate the immigration laws by hiring "illegal aliens"? They know that there is a law against that. And the same people that they hire for sub-par wages are the people that end up going to the Emergency Room when they get sick or are injured at the work site.

When you start dealing seriously with the issue that you accuse the president of lying about, then I will pay attention to you again. Otherwise you can take your opinion and put it you know where.

One more thing, make arrangements for the bilingual (English and Spanish) reading comprehension tests. I will respond to you if you set it up. Make it worthwile for me! I need some cash.
 EarlzP
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 22
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Did the President LIE on September 9, 2009 ... in his speech to Congress?
Posted: 10/25/2009 6:11:30 AM

Actually, [warning: reading comprehension alert!!] what I have been saying is that President Obama lied because he told a half truth. Everybody here agrees that illegal aliens are currently receiving health care here in the good ol USA. I just want President Obama to admit that this will not change under Health Care Reform. simple.


Illegals have been receiving ER care since 1985, there is nothing in the Health Care reform bill that addresses health care for illegals there is nothing in the Health Care reform bill that gives illegals access to health care. The president did not lie, you can put a distortional spin on it anyway you want but the facts remain the facts and distortions remain distortions.
 Imported_labor
Joined: 3/7/2008
Msg: 23
Did the President LIE on September 9, 2009 ... in his speech to Congress?
Posted: 10/25/2009 10:03:11 AM
Actually, [warning: reading comprehension alert!!] what I have been saying is that President Obama lied because he told a half truth. Everybody here agrees that illegal aliens are currently receiving health care here in the good ol USA. I just want President Obama to admit that this will not change under Health Care Reform. simple.


So you are blaming the president for not knowing what is in your head, and for not anticipating your question? That's really moronic! I feel sorry for those that don't have a sense of proportions. Now you want the president to be an ALL KNOWING super human being that would know what is hidden inside the distorted brains of people who are so twisted that can't even deal with a simple fact. And in top of that they are really disingenuous.

Time and again has been explained to you that the president's statement referred to the Health Care Reform bill that he would like to see on his desk to sign it into law. The purpose of this reform is to offer affordable health insurance to the US citizens and the legal residents in the US. The law would provide federally subsidized health insurance to those who can't afford to pay the insurance companies' rates. The law would not apply to "illegal" aliens, meaning that they will not receive federally subsidized health insurance under this law. I will clarify this even further for you: it means that legally the "illegal" aliens will not be covered by this law.

Do you understand what all that means? Only imbecilic people would keep insisting that the president lied or told a half truth. Health Care Reform is not a law to replace all existing laws related to health care. It is a law to provide affordable Health Insurance Coverage to the citizens and legal residents in this country.

It has also been explained to you all that the president couldn't have lied by saying what he wanted the bill to contain. The only time that we will know if he lied is if he signs into law a bill that is contrary to what he said during his speech. Then you could have basis to say that he lied.

The issue of prevention, meaning that the president should know that people will break the laws, and since he is not saying that the law will make it impossible for people to "illegally" break the law, therefore the president lied, has also been explained in this discussion. There is no justification for using that argument to insult the president. Only a moron that doesn't understand that there are laws and that there are agencies whose responsibility is to see that the laws are respected, would keep on insisting that the president lied. There are laws against all type of crimes, from jaywalking or shoplifting to assault, rape and murder. Has any president been able to prevent those crimes from happening?


umm, ok. be in Texas tomorrow. It is a fairly bilingual state and it is where I'll be playing golf on vacation.....because unlike you, I already have the cash!


I'll be in San Antonio tomorrow. Specifically, I'll be having lunch in a restaurant on the boardwalk, across the river at mid-day. You dress like a clown and ride a bycicle blaring a horn so that I can recognize you. I'll flag you down and offer you a drink for having the courage to show up. Then we can go to the language lab at Trinity University and take the reading comprehension tests. First in English, straight bet, and then double or nothing in Spanish. How about that? Don't forget to bring some serious cash, since you say that you have plenty of it. After we are done, I will give you a dunce hat and a couple of ballons to complement your flashy attire, and send you in your merry way back to downtown.

Be there on time!
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 24
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Did the President LIE on September 9, 2009 ... in his speech to Congress?
Posted: 10/29/2009 8:25:49 PM
I don't think the President lied. I just think he's way too smart to set himself up to be caught in a lie. He has no reason to lie to the nation. Not considering his integrity (he's not gonna lie), just remember, he's not the previous POTUS ... who really did lie to us on a regular basis.

OBAMA has everything to lose and nothing to gain by lying to us about something that important to the nation.
 EarlzP
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 25
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Did the President LIE on September 9, 2009 ... in his speech to Congress?
Posted: 10/29/2009 8:50:16 PM

YES. President Obama lied. :~)


Good debating tactics, apparently former President Bush's own economic advisor disagrees with you, is he lying?


Former Bush Administration economist Keith Hennesey thinks that if this provision were to become law, it would be a violation of President Obama’s campaign pledge to not raise taxes on people who make less than $250,000. He explains that for middle-income people it would be cheaper to pay the tax than to buy an insurance plan, so some people with tight finance might opt, rationally, for the tax. Hennesey says that, according to the Congressional Budget Office, this conundrum would be faced by about 8 million people. It should be mentioned that the House health care bill with this tax provision is not a plan of Obama’s. It has been created ground-up by Congress. If he signs it into law, it becomes his. But until then, this doesn’t constitute a violation of the campaign pledge any more than any other bill in Congress that proposes a tax increase.


It appears that a former "Bush" economist "thinks" it would be a violation of President Obama's campaign pledge "if" it passes and is signed into law. He also points out that the House health care bill with this tax provision is not a plan of Obama’s. So to call the President a liar at this point is another distortion
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