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 ValkyrieHJR
Joined: 8/8/2009
Msg: 4
Condoning Atheism.Page 1 of 25    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25)
I think that it is important for people to believe in something. What that is, though, is completely up to them. There is right now a silly cult for a flying spaghetti monster. (look it up. It's real) I think that one is supposed to be more of a joke on organized religion in general though.

Whatever you choose to believe, I think what is important is your personal relationship with whatever that higher power may be. Whether it is Allah, God, The Crone, The Green Man and even, (god forbid I should actually say this one) Satan, I think the important part is that relationship. It is a very personal thing, and I think everyone's take is going to vary a little bit. There are too many people that assume they know the best and only way. And the only people that can actually tell us what is after death are already dead, so they aren't going to be doing much communicating.

You can read the Bible all you want, but that does not necessarily mean you believe.

I wouldn't recommend teaching her atheism specifically. But I would make sure she can make the choice for herself. Let her believe in something, even a flying spaghetti monster.

Religious beliefs offer hope to people that there is a reason for this miserable existence we have on Earth, hope that there is a reason for all the suffering people go through.
 Lint Spotter
Joined: 8/27/2009
Msg: 5
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Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 11/7/2009 4:55:07 AM
There was one Hallowe'en when my kids were much younger where a house was giving out mini comic books. I thought this was quite unique and I was really impressed... until I read them.

According to these, Harry Potter is evil and if you read his books or watch his movies, you'll go to hell... same with Sabrina the Teenage Witch and other various fictional things including Disney. *Ok, Disney I get... but Harry and Sabrina?*

I was amazed at the audacity of that family to push their belief on another person... if Hallowe'en is so evil, don't participate. Easy Peasy huh?

Well, being the level-headed person I am... I decided to confront the family. So I went to a friend's house and got him and his old handy-dandy copy of the Satanic Bible to promote their word. (BTW... I've read a decent portion of the Satanic Bible - I would prefer that to those comic books for my kids to read - it wasn't bad in the least.)

For some reason they weren't interested in hearing me try to promote that religion...


I've raised my children in the manner of the Roman Catholic religion but in a way that they understood that this was simply one choice that they could make. I've also raised them to be tolerant and even curious of other religions in the event that they find one which is better suited to their wants/needs in their lives. As for atheism, I would prefer that to a religion filled with vitriol at the slightest transgression into sin...

Seriously... how happy can these people be when even a simple pleasure will send them into the pits of hellfire and damnation? And if they happen to be right... well, at least I have a decent stock of marshmallows to make use of the fires...
 freetime2bme
Joined: 1/16/2006
Msg: 6
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Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 11/7/2009 5:29:27 AM
Q: Is condoing atheism really all that awful?
A: Only if the truth is really that awful. You see sweetness, there is no god or gods. But there are lots of people that do things in the name of god. I was on the phone to Fort Hood the last other day making sure none of my friends were killed in the name of god. Not many people getting killed in the name of being an atheist and that is all ways a good thing if you ask me.
 lorelei540
Joined: 8/14/2008
Msg: 7
Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 11/7/2009 9:15:21 AM

Oh boy im getting a backlash though.
From whom? It's nobody's business but your own family's what your religious beliefs/practices are.


I wolud prefer her to take a more spiritual path, but i amnot her and she is not me, thus i give my loving permission for her to believe in whe wants to.
She's just a kid, she's got plenty of time to find a spiritual path if that's in her future. Just being open to allowing her to explore is more than most parents give their kids.


I have tried to discuss this with family and close friends, but ended up bombarded by everyone from my mother in law from from the teacher to her estranged bio-father on how im poisioning her by telling her it is ok tio be an atheist.
Again, it's nobody's business what her religious beliefs are/aren't. If you choose to discuss those things with others though, then you can expect that they will put their beliefs into the mix as much as possible. Religion is not a "reasoned" thing though, it's a matter of faith and emotion. You and a religious person are not even speaking the same language, so reasoned discussion isn't possible. Try just saying "I respect your views, please respect mine," and leave it at that. And if they don't, then say "we have to go now, call us when you have enough respect for us to accept us for who we are."

The teacher is way out of bounds though.

(unrelated question --- I thought your daughter and her father were building a relationship, why is he the "estranged bio-father"?)
 packagedealx3
Joined: 2/4/2006
Msg: 9
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Posted: 11/7/2009 4:02:03 PM
Funny, my kids don't perceive of the Bible as having horrible stories because we go to a church that doesn't use fear as currency and focuses on teaching children to be kind, yada, yada.

Most people whether they remain involved in a church as they grow older and are more able to make decisions doubt the existence of God, duh. That's what faith is, believing when you have no proof before you.

I don't think you have approved or disapproved of atheism, just told your daughter that she can figure things out for herself and that it is okay to believe what she believes. That is the way I have raised my children and when my daughter asked about conversion once upon a time I told her that if she finds something that gives her peace and helps her to be a better person, she should do what makes her happy and what feels right to her.

Your experience makes me laugh. My brother and sister-in-law are born again, new wave, whatever you want to call it. The kids are home schooled and only allowed to watch G rated movies with no thought to the actual content and evaluating movies by the parents. They brought a DVD to my parent's house one time, they were allowed to watch it because it was "religious" and my parents were horrified because it was apparently the film version of that little book they laid at your doorstep.

I agree with you wholeheartedly. People that choose to share those types of Bible stories with small children when there are so many that illustrate good things like those that are in the gospels. But I have never been a big fan of the hell and brimstone rather than the loving God.

My kids have friends of many different faiths, many different denominations within Christianity. My daughter in particular has learned a great deal about different faiths and her friends of other faiths have also learned from her.
 ValkyrieHJR
Joined: 8/8/2009
Msg: 10
Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 11/9/2009 10:33:49 AM
Openheart, I appreciate your post, truly I do. And I think that is one of the many beautiful passages that the Bible offers.

But in this case, I think Sweetness was being sarcastic in reference to the porn issue. The pamphlet/booklet/other reading material that was handed to her child was something that was not about the love of God, but about the fear and horror of He!!. The images that were presented were probably horrible images that no child needs to see at any age when being introduced to the absolute love that God is and represents. That is the stuff of nightmares and enough to turn any child away from God.
 freetime2bme
Joined: 1/16/2006
Msg: 11
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Posted: 11/9/2009 12:04:55 PM
Atheist don't blame god for anything. God is a man made idea, that is not real, un-true, a big lie, how can you blame something that is not real for anything? Not logical. Now blame what people do in the name of this big lie, well that is founded in facts. Now want to talk about not logical, a belief in a god is a good place to start lol.

" people who have a lot learn" and openheart is one of them.
 ValkyrieHJR
Joined: 8/8/2009
Msg: 12
Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 11/9/2009 2:28:56 PM
Now want to talk about not logical, a belief in a god is a good place to start lol.


Okay, this is fast becoming a religious debate over who is right and who is wrong and which religion or non-religion is right and which one isn't. And I don't think that was what the OP intended.

But in response, almost everyone throughout history has questioned why we are here, why we have to suffer so much through this existence, why things happen the way they do, all of that. Don't you ever wonder why you are in the situation you are in? Whatever it may be? Why things happen the way they do? It is not illogical to try and explain these things. Why does the sun come up every day in the east? And set every night in the west. Other than the obvious answer that the Earth revolves around the sun in that direction, why does it revolve around the sun? Where did we come from? How did all of this come to be the way it is?

These are the questions that scientists try to answer. And they do come up with nice logical answers that seem to fit into scientific answers. But then their answers always introduce more questions. Darwin's theory of evolution, that we all evolved from one lifeform over a few millenia, brings up the question of the missing link. The Big Bang theory begs the question of where did the matter come from that caused the explosion? It had to come from somewhere. Even logical minds have to admit that there are some things that cannot be explained. And that is where religion comes in. I explains the unexplainable. It offers hope when someone suffers a horrible tragedy. It offers hope to those people that are suffering from incurable diseases, or have to lose a limb or watch their child die.

Mankind is not a logical species. We hope, we love, we co-habitat with our chosen partners, we hate, we start wars, and most of all, we believe. This does not pertain to any specific religion. I don't know which one is right. They could all be right for all I know. We could all be wrong too. Really the pastafarians could have the right idea. (They are real. Google it. It's quite silly actually).

My personal belief is with Openheart in the God is awesome! But I am not everyone and one of the fantastic things that God did for us was to grant us free will.



Edit for above^^^^^ Pitterpat, I agree in how you are doing it. I am raising my children to keep an open mind. We go to church on Sunday. But I want to encourage them to keep their choices open and seek out their own relationship with a spiritual power. I have come to the conclusion that religion and spirituality is a very personal matter and should be kept between the person and their higher power.
 ValkyrieHJR
Joined: 8/8/2009
Msg: 13
Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 11/9/2009 8:05:44 PM


I think that it is important for people to believe in something. What that is, though, is completely up to them.

I believe in what I can study and understand. I would like to hear an explanation - ANY explanation - as to why it would be important in any way shape or form to "believe in something" ?!? Why? Why would condoning atheism be wrong?


You believe in what you can study and understand. Okay, then, can't you read and understand religion? I have studied so many religions, and read about so many different religions. I love to study them.

Don't you ever just ask, "why is this happening to me?" Haven't you ever had something horrible happen in your life and you wish you knew why it happened? I am not talking about the circumstances surrounding the tragedy, but the reason it happened to begin with. Belief in anything offers people hope that there is something greater than them. That there is a reason why these horrible things in our lives happen. People have a fundamental need to have a belief in something greater than themselves. If they don't have that belief, then later in life it may develop. But there has to be some hope for an afterlife. Otherwise people will lose the will to fight for the things they want and love and believe in.

But that is just my $.02
 ValkyrieHJR
Joined: 8/8/2009
Msg: 14
Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 11/9/2009 9:14:09 PM
I'll tell you what, CS, give it about let's say 20 years. For some reason, as people get closer to death, those beliefs start to surface. You may be a non believer now, and that is perfectly fine. I am not one of those crazy super christians that tell you you are going to burn in hell and my way is the only way. And I am not going to shove my beliefs down you throat. That is not my way.

Just as you study child development, etc. I study things like religion and culture. Except I do it for fun. It's my passion, so yes I know a little bit about what I am about to type. As people get older many start to contemplate the afterlife. And for many, maybe not you, but many others, it gives them some comfort to know that there is something better waiting for them after this existence. And you may be right, there may be nothing for us after death except to become worm food. I choose to believe otherwise. And there is no proof that I am right or wrong, or that you are right or wrong. In fact, there are a lot of people that have documented near death experiences that do talk about the light, or something to that affect. But the only way to prove that which idea is correct is to actually die, and I am not willing to do that to test my faith. Because that is exactly what it is, faith.

As for not questioning God, go ahead, question him. I did for a very long time. But I look around and I see to many things, minor things even, that are too amazing and wonderful to just be explained scientifically. Things like the colors in a sunset or sunrise. Sure, you can say that it's the light from the sun bouncing off the different gases and moisture in the atmosphere from different angles, or whatever, but why does something like that have to be so amazingly beautiful? And why is every sunset new and different from the one before? or even the one in another location? To me, that is a miracle. Maybe it is a minor miracle. But it is still a miracle. I don't question why it is that way. I just thank God for that beauty every time I see it.

I will give you one thing, I may have made a sweeping generalization about how people feel. And I shouldn't have done that. Maybe I should have worded it differently. It goes back to what I was saying about people as they get closer to death.

Here's one for you.....why do you study child development/psychology or whatever it is? (I am not trying to be dismissive of what you study, I just cannot remember what it is exactly off hand. I did read your profile though.) Because you like it? Because you want to be something that involves it? Why?
 ValkyrieHJR
Joined: 8/8/2009
Msg: 15
Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 11/9/2009 11:07:15 PM
First of all, you are right about this being subjective opinions. And I firmly believe that everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

Second of all, I do not put anyone's beliefs beneath my own. I have no idea who is right or who is wrong in this debate. There is no way to answer that without actually dying, permanently. And then I still don't think I would be able to answer that for anyone else here. I have conceded that point, if you read carefully what I wrote. The great thing about living in the US is the idea that we are free tp believe in whatever we want to believe in. And we don't have to defend them to anyone.

I choose to believe in God. I have not been sarcastic to anyone else. Nor have I rolled my eyes at anyone else for their beliefs.


So what, you are closer to death so you rethought your perception of reality and chose to believe in God to make your impending death more tolerable. . .


No. It did not take me becoming closer to death. It gives me comfort to know that God has a plan for me, whether or not I know what that plan is. It helps me get through my day-to-day screwed up life right now. But even if that was what happened, what is wrong with that? I would love to see if your attitude changes when you are 70, 80, 90 years old and you know you don't have long left on this Earth. Why is having faith in something so terrible to people?

And I never said I knew a lot about science. But there are a lot of different areas in science. Frankly, I don't care why science says the moon causes the tides to change, or why science says the sun sets in the west, or why trees lose their leaves in the fall. It's enough for me that those things happen. Science has it's place in our society, and I will never argue that it doesn't. But because I choose not to study science also does not mean I think it is beneath me. I did not claim to know my subjects, plural. I claimed to know about what I have studied and learned about religion, civilization, and culture. and when I say religion, I don't just mean Christianity. And when I say culture I am not talking about an appreciation for the finer things in life.

I don't dismiss other explanations. I don't know enough about them. That doesn't mean they are beneath me. Where have I dismissed any other explanation? I have pointed out that you can show any scientific theory about the big questions in life and I can show how it opens more questions. I used Darwin's theory of evolution and the big bang as examples. That doesn't mean I have completely dismissed them.

Like you said, this is all subjective. There is no right or wrong answer. I can't prove you are right, but you can't prove I am wrong. So don't try and force your beliefs on me. I am not going to do that to you. Don't assume that what you are reading is necessarily sarcastic or anything else. You miss out on voice inflections and body stance and other key parts of communication when you are reading something on a forum. You don't know for sure when someone is being sarcastic.
 freetime2bme
Joined: 1/16/2006
Msg: 16
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Posted: 11/10/2009 4:32:51 AM
"correct me if I'm wrong, is the only religion that does not use their God as a means for controling the behaviors of the congregation."

Yes, you are not only wrong you are way wrong; hell is a big part of your religion! If you are looking for a belief that does not use god as a means for controling behaviors, well the OP's child has found it. Atheism, no god therefore no controling, add to that that it is the truth and it is a real winner for her child.
 ValkyrieHJR
Joined: 8/8/2009
Msg: 17
Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 11/10/2009 4:40:19 AM
Atheism, no god therefore no controling, add to that that it is the truth and it is a real winner for her child.


How do you know it's the truth? Have you died recently? Not had a near death experience, but died? And if you have, are you a ghost, posting on the computer to enlighten us? What is so terrible about believing in something other than nothing?
 Lint Spotter
Joined: 8/27/2009
Msg: 18
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Posted: 11/10/2009 5:13:11 AM

Second of all, I do not put anyone's beliefs beneath my own.
Actually, you have... when you stated the following excerpts in naming religions: "There is right now a silly cult for a flying spaghetti monster." and "(god forbid I should actually say this one) Satan" you are giving them less credence than your own religion or other religions of equal stature in your eyes.


What is so terrible about believing in something other than nothing?
And what is so terrible about not believing in a higher being? You mention that religion offers hope that there's a reason for all the suffering of the world... I wonder at a god that allows all of this suffering to go on, that allows wonderful, loving and cherished people to die of agonizing disease when horrible and cruel people live on in a world gone mad.

You're looking at this from the viewpoint that people need religion. Some of the most together people I know feel that any religion is wrong, that atheism is the correct choice, but none of them challenge me on my belief. Seems the only people that I've ever met that want to shove their belief down my throat are the ones that are so called, devout in their religion.

As for your comment about dying... I did... flat line and the whole schmiel. I don't remember a white light or a chorus of angels or anything. It's black - nothing, no memory... not good, not bad. Nothing. It wasn't terrible either...
 freetime2bme
Joined: 1/16/2006
Msg: 19
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Posted: 11/10/2009 5:17:20 AM
"How do you know it's the truth? Have you died recently? Not had a near death experience, but died? And if you have, are you a ghost, posting on the computer to enlighten us? What is so terrible about believing in something other than nothing?"

Consistency is important. I would bet $1000, that you are not consistent at all on who you give this how do you know question. Do you stand up in church and ask Reverent Lovejoy how he knows, do you question the football play when when said "I want to thank the baby JC for letting me make that TD" Do you question Father Mic-Sodomy when he says it is gods work? I bet not, but you question me. Well, the facts point that there is no god again and again and again and as they do it become less a theory and more a law that there is no god. The people that go were did all the matter come form to start everything and then don't except that the matter was all ways there, but they do except that there was all ways an all knowing all powerful always present god (not held up by the bible by the way).
I really do not care what you believe, but I do care about consistency, so you need to ask every one that tells you they believe in god or thanks god for doing X.Y or Z for them how they know that lol. What a joke. Believing in something not real is terrible it is bad it has slowed man kinds learning down again and again and to this day it slows us down with believers not wishing to have ideas on the big bang or evolution taught. Add to this every day people are killed in the name of god, every day, you can easily see what is so terrible about it, if you could think you could anyways. But you and most all believers can not even think clearly, because questioning is not cool. Don't believe; question the virgin berth next time you are at church and check out if questioning is a big hit or not.
 freetime2bme
Joined: 1/16/2006
Msg: 21
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Posted: 11/10/2009 6:24:44 AM
"A person's beliefs are theirs....they are personal and worthy of respect."

Thou shalt have no other gods before me, Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain. Do you remember these few lines. Do you know some of the historical punishments for not following these lines. Are they constant with the respect you are speaking of? Christianity, judaism and islam all have consistencies, intolerance can be found without digging deep in any of them. Unless your from a different planet then the rest of us lol. You can and may follow things different then some or you may at least believe you do, but if you do you are not following the laws of your stated religon are you? There are rules and laws. "allow our children to judge for THEMSELF" there are counties were death is given out for this, to this day, because it is the law. WOW you must be from a different planet.
 freetime2bme
Joined: 1/16/2006
Msg: 22
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Posted: 11/10/2009 9:48:23 AM
"I choose to believe in God but use my free will to choose not to be religious."
So what is it that your belief in god based on if not the bible or some other relgious teachings? Are you also stating that you do not believe the bible to be true? Have you started you own religion, I mean if you have a belief in god, but reject the bibles teachings, what are your beliefs based on? Again you might want to make the brake from religon, because you see the intolerance that the exist in the stated laws/rules, but you hold on to a belief in a god. Can you explain? I bet if you try, you might find the Atheist belief is more logical, but even if you don't I would like to see you thought process on this. As far as Atheist doing the right thing they do it better then the other groups at least in the USA. None believers make up 15% of the population, but are less then 1% of the population in our jails (the most under represented belief found in the jails here). Just a small example of why you do not have to be spiritual or believe in a god do do the right things.
 ValkyrieHJR
Joined: 8/8/2009
Msg: 23
Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 11/10/2009 11:00:51 AM
First of all, I am defending my choice in religion. It seems that you all found a couple of people on here that are Christian and "Oh My God, How can you believe in that nonsense?"

I keep saying on here that if you don't want to share my beliefs, that is fine. You are welcome to that. That is your choice. I will not stop you from believing or not believing.

As for questioning people, I do question the ones that say they believe in God and act otherwise. In fact, the people like that drove me away from Christianity for a very long time.

People get killed in the name of other Gods also. Look at Allah! Jyhad is an extreme form of Islam. When not taken to that extreme Islam is actually a very peaceful and beautiful religion. Same thing with Christianity. Jesus does not preach killing people in his name. That comes from Man.

As far as this topic goes, you all are welcome to keep questioning my beliefs and attacking them all you want. My beliefs offer me peace, which is something I need right now. The OP asked a question, I offered my OPINION, which is exactly what all of this is.

I have not seen any proof that there is no God. I haven't seen anything even close to proving that. All of you seem to have no problem with the fact that the matter that caused the big bang was just there, always. But you do have a problem believing God is just there, and has been. how is it any different?

I am not going to argue. I am not going to force my beliefs on you. I expect the same thing in return.

As far as putting the FSM beneath me, it's more of a joke on organized religion in general. (yes I do get it). It's not meant to be taken seriously. As for putting satanism beneath me, yes I do. I look down on anything that preaches cruelty, horror, and murder for personal gain as beneath me.

And you all can talk about all the horrible things that have been done in the name of any religion. But you also have to acknowledge the good that has been done in the name of religion as well. There is a battered women's shelter here, where I live that was started, not by Christians, but by Pagans. But they did in the name of their religion. How is that so bad?

One more question, you all seem to only be attacking Christianity. But I have been saying religion in general. So is it just Christianity you have a problem with? Or do you think that that is all I know because that is what I choose to believe.

You talk about the horrible things that happen in life. But what about all of the amazing things? Giving birth? Saving a life? Witnessing the beauty of nature?

How about this, you all choose to not believe in anything because there is no proof that there is a higher power. You choose to do this based on what other people have told you. I will choose to believe that there is a higher power because there is no proof that there isn't. We all agree to disagree, because I am not trying to change your minds, and you are not going to change mine. And leave it at that.
 Lint Spotter
Joined: 8/27/2009
Msg: 24
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Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 11/10/2009 11:38:45 AM

As for putting satanism beneath me, yes I do. I look down on anything that preaches cruelty, horror, and murder for personal gain as beneath me.
Truly, this is not the basis of the Satanic Bible. I’ve spent quite a bit of time reading that book, and no where that I could find were there blood sacrifices, murders, cruelty, horror or anything truly abhorrent.

Perhaps before something is looked down upon, it could be researched.
 slybandit
Joined: 7/10/2006
Msg: 25
Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 11/10/2009 12:20:12 PM
Notwithstanding my own atheism, I'm all for a fair and balanced portrait of religions and the consequences of religious belief.

1. The religious have no monopoly on horrific mass violence. The regimes of the former Soviet Union, Khmer Rouge Cambodia, and the current People's Republic of China, have engaged in horrific acts of mass violence, which were quite specifically motivated by their militant atheism. The same could be said of virtually every religion I have looked at seriously.

2. With respect, OpenHeart928, it is difficult to take the following claim seriously: "Nothing in the Bible -- taken as a whole and in context -- says to go out and kill, start wars, etc."

The first problem is that you are arbitrarily determining what "as a whole" and "in context" means.

The second problem is that your claim is just inaccurate.

Let me cite Deuteronomy 25:

"17 “Remember what Amalek did to you on the way as you came out of Egypt, 18 how he attacked you on the way when you were faint and weary, and cut off your tail, those who were lagging behind you, and he did not fear God. 19 Therefore when the Lord your God has given you rest from all your enemies around you, in the land that the Lord your God is giving you for an inheritance to possess, you shall blot out the memory of Amalek from under heaven; you shall not forget."

The fighting is mentioned again in Judges 3:13, in the Judgeship of Ehud, and again under Gideon, as the Amalekites allied with the Midianites (Judges 6:3, 6:33, 7:12). This enmity is also the background of the command of the Lord to Saul:

"2 Thus says the Lord of hosts, ‘I have noted what Amalek did to Israel in opposing them on the way when they came up out of Egypt. 3 Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey." (1 Sam. 15:2-3).

Later on, we have Saul punished for not having completed the genocide of the Amalekites down to the last man, woman, infant and domestic animal. (Actually, I'm not quite sure why the Amalekite goats got off scot-free, but the L_rd moves in mysterious ways, I'm told.)

Since you insist on context, please explain for our benefit: what is the *context* in which we should read this very explicit mandate for **Total Genocide** of an ethnic group, right down to their domestic animals? What response would you have to an Israeli militant who insists the Palestinians are "Amalekites" and it's time to get on with G_d's work?

Now, let me be accused of hammering on Judaism and Christianity (both religions consider this text (or at least its original version) authoritative), similar material can be found in the "sacred" texts of many religions. This is just an extreme example.

The insistence on "context" accomplishes nothing.

Most religious texts are obvious palimpsests of wildly divergent texts written at different places and times, by different individuals, with no obvious reason for why they are put together, other than fiat.

Observant Muslims, by the way, consider what I just wrote to be heresy of the worst sort in reference to the Qu'ran, which according to every version of Islam with which I am familiar, is considered to be the divinely inspired work of one single individual, notwithstanding that vast passages of it look like they've been plagiarized from other works.

I gather the general Muslim answer is that the other works were corrupted over time. Muslims tend to get rather uncomfortable when asked whether they are personally confident about the accuracy of the isnads of the various hadith which they consider authoritative or not. Typically, anger at the line of questioning tends to end rational discussion. And I personally find Islam to be among the most rationalistic of faiths, notwithstanding it's distorted image in Western media.

EDIT POST: Wait, in the Muslims' defence, I forgot the insistence that the Prophet was supposedly illiterate. (Not sure that that's explicitly stated anywhere in the divinely-inspired/dictated-by-an-angel Qu'ran. I suspect it's a hadith. Q.E.D.
 freetime2bme
Joined: 1/16/2006
Msg: 26
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Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 11/10/2009 12:37:48 PM
"I have not seen any proof that there is no God. I haven't seen anything even close to proving that. All of you seem to have no problem with the fact that the matter that caused the big bang was just there, always. But you do have a problem believing God is just there, and has been. how is it any different?"

For one we know that matter exists for a start, it is here it is real. Then comes the theories on were the matter came from. One of them being that it was all ways here, your theory being god put it here and there are others. With your theory you have to explain were god came from and again it is he was all ways here. What is more plausible, matter was all ways in existence in some form or an other or there was an all powerful, all knowing all present entity that just was? Well for me that is an easy pick. I see people saying in the forums that Atheist do not believe in god because there is no proof. I do not reject a theory because of limited proof, you test the theory again and again just like we are doing today with the big bang. I do reject the god theory, because it is just so dumb (to me and lots like me any ways) add to it there is no way to test it. That theory has no more weight them this theory: all the matter that exists is there because I dreamed it and my dreams are different they transcend time and space, I therefore created all the matter with my dreams and I an responsible. Please send check of thanks to me, $5 and up will get you a special place in the after life. No way to prove or disprove, but some will call it a dumb theory. Are they bad for that? If not I can not be bad for saying the idea of a god is just dumb too.
 ValkyrieHJR
Joined: 8/8/2009
Msg: 27
Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 11/10/2009 12:44:27 PM
Freetime, of course you are right, I am wrong. You have proven to me beyond a doubt that there is no God. Go in peace and prosper. (ThinkBoy, that was dripping with sarcasm)

One thing I have not done on this forum is call anyone's beliefs stupid or anyone dumb for believing it. That was you, just now. So your way of intolerance and hatred must be the better way. You win.
 freetime2bme
Joined: 1/16/2006
Msg: 28
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Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 11/10/2009 1:03:02 PM
"One thing I have not done on this forum is call anyone's beliefs stupid or anyone dumb for believing it. That was you, just now. So your way of intolerance and hatred must be the better way. You win. "

So will you be sending me the $5 check?
 ValkyrieHJR
Joined: 8/8/2009
Msg: 29
Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 11/10/2009 1:35:11 PM
Yes I did and yes she was!
 Elmenreich
Joined: 9/23/2009
Msg: 30
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Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 11/10/2009 5:14:27 PM
Again...plausible to YOU. Not to me and many others. They don't make sense at all! A big bang created life....wow. ok. Well what put everything there to begin with? How did the stuff that went Bang get there? Um...that's right....no one KNOWS!!! It just happened....yeah ok.


You just don't understand the Big Bang. The Big Bang created matter/energy, not life. Life didn't begin until planets of second-generation stars were formed from the debris of supernovas.

The Big Bang Theory and the Continuous Creation theories have more weight because they are based on scientific observation, rather than pure superstition and legends. The idea that God created the World in seven days holds no more weight than the idea that the Earth is flat and that it lies upon an infinite stack of turtles, but it doesn't hold as much weight as a scientific theory.


what explosion have you ever known that CREATED?


Proton-antiproton annihilation, for one. It's a well-known phenomenon.
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