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Show ALL Forums  > Religion  > Does Biblical matrimony need a "women's liberation" revision?      Home login  
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 tim49250
Joined: 2/9/2005
Msg: 1
Does Biblical matrimony need a "women's liberation" revision?Page 1 of 3    (1, 2, 3)
From all indications on my end, the Bible was written by men who regard women as some sort of property or by men who sympathize with men who regard women as some sort of property. Hence, it only stands to reason that the Bible would advocate women obeying their husbands/owners. If a woman strays she is negating the ownership rights of her husband. The norm for the Bible is that women can only be with their one original husband, sexually, for their entire life. While, if a man can afford, he may have as many women/wives as he chooses without any negative moral ramifications, as long as he doesn't infringe on the rights of another man's female namely her father or husband.

Strictly from a Biblical perspective, bigamy (two or more wives) is not a sin or a crime of any kind, as far as I know. There are only assumptions that can be made from some scriptures that bigamy might be considered anything less than just another holy type of matrimony. But there are, however, several passages, on the contrary, that clearly exonerate men who possessed several wives. This was acceptable for those who have the means to support multiple wives. I, personally don't care for the practice of ownership concerning humans of any kind, male or female, so I consider this part of our history "good riddance".

Now we have moved to a time when men still want to keep women from straying but are forced to allow them to ultimately make their own decisions concerning weather they will stay married or not, whether they will cheat or not. Without the threat of being penniless, unemployable or being stoned to death some women are choosing to explore both their sexuality and work related efforts with the same vigor as men. Women are now able to choose the work they want to do and simply don't have to stay married if they decide it's not in their best interest.

So where does this leave the man who was raised to make good money so that he can have a wife someday who will turn a blind eye to whatever he does outside the marriage bed as long as he's a good provider? If she doesn't choose to put up with his infidelity anymore and will leave he is left single. He finds that single life allows him to have more than one women sexually but these sexual experiences leave him rather empty emotionally. Now the ground is level both men and women want what they want from a long term relationship but their wants are sometimes quite different.

While both men and women desire emotional connection and exclusivity from their partner, generally the male partner wants sexual variety more frequently and finds it more difficult to remain exclusive. The female counterparts, on the other hand, tend to want romance more frequently from their partner to go along with that exclusivity. Males will romance new partners but not so much their current partner. Women, in particular, will allow a new male partner to play the field but only for a relatively short period of time before she clips his wings in a long term relationship. Yet, for males, this desire to find and have new sexual partners remains important to him for a lifetime.

So, this is the problem, as I see it, at least, how can one find a solution? Is it possible to find a solution that might satisfy the sexual relationship desires of both men and women for years to come? Keep in mind that we do live now live in a modern society where both women and men can come and or go depending on what they feel is best from their uniquely different perspectives and situations?

Does Biblical matrimony need a "women's liberation" revision?
 ZenBeth
Joined: 2/23/2009
Msg: 2
Does Biblical matrimony need a women's liberation revision?
Posted: 11/12/2009 5:20:41 PM
Ever read Proverbs 31 which speaks of a woman who isnt a slave to others? Learn Hebrew and it reads different that the Christian english versions. The other nice thing about the Jewish texts and society is that Judaism is open to evolving and not being stuck in the past. As for multiple wives, these were rare and not the norm.

~Beth~
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 3
view profile
History
Does Biblical matrimony need a women's liberation revision?
Posted: 11/12/2009 6:13:03 PM

From all indications on my end, the Bible was written by men who regard women as some sort of property or by men who sympathize with men who regard women as some sort of property.
Orthodox Jews might argue with that. Orthodox Jewish law is that no Jewish marriage can be binding unless both parties are willing, and there are 2 reliable witnesses to testify to that. His friends don't count on being reliable to testify that she was willing to marry, not unless they would happily testify against him at the first opportunity when the truth is against him.

Further, if a woman is hit by her husband, even once, the courts have to make him pay so much in compensation that anyone with $500,000 in the bank be broke. She would of course be entitled to demand he gives her a divorce, and be paid 1 years living expenses in salary, together with everything she brought with her into the marriage. If he ruined what she brought into the marriage, he has to pay their value to buy them again in the nearby markets. He of course has to pay for the upkeep of the children on top of all that. If he wasn't that rich, he could expect to be sold into slavery to pay her what he owes her in compensation.

Even if they have a happy marriage, but he doesn't satisfy her in bed, then she is entitled to demand a divorce. However, she has no obligation to give him sex at all. She also has no obligation to give him children at all.

She is also entitled to be kept the way she was raised. If she was raised with servants, she is entitled to be given servants, and the lack of such servants might be grounds for divorce. But if she was under the impression that she would be given servants when they married, and would not have married him had she known that he would not employ servants for her, then she married him under a condition that was not fulfilled. In such a case, the conditions of the marriage were never fulfilled and the marriage is null and void. However, he can be said to have damaged her reputation by such a sham. In Orthodox Jewish Law, anyone is entitled to huge compensation for defamation of their reputation, and a wife is no different.

If she was entitled to demand a divorce, such as if he hit her, even once, or he doesn't satisfy her in bed, and he refused to give her a divorce, the courts are entitled to whip him until he agrees to give a divorce voluntarily, or if he is so stubborn that he never gives in, until death, and then she is his widow, and inherits a lot more of his estate. Either way, if the courts deem that she is entitled to a divorce, then she is going to get one, and he is going to be the one to suffer, and she has all sorts of grounds for divorce.

As you can see, Orthodox Jewish courts give women all sorts of rights in marriage that most secular courts would never dream of doing. The only problem that exists today, is that Orthodox Jewish courts are not allowed to give out corporal punishment or fines, as they have no direct authority of their own in any Western country, not even in Israel. So women are left only to deal with the Western system of treating women, which is extremely unfair to women, compared to the Orthodox Jewish one. So from that perspective, with their hands tied by secular courts, it can seem that women's rights are trampled on unfairly. They have no power to do the right thing, and are blamed for not doing the right thing anyway, responsibility without the power to fulfil it. That's always going to make them look bad, just as if your wife blames you for what Larry Flynt does, when it was never in your control to stop Larry Flynt from doing what he does.
 8765649326
Joined: 9/29/2009
Msg: 4
Does Biblical matrimony need a women's liberation revision?
Posted: 11/12/2009 6:44:19 PM
controversy and confusion Tim..
Because of the title of this thread....it is open up once again for bible bashing.
Why don't you retitle to open the door of unity and understanding.....
biblical matrimony....old testament? which indeed has important messages
is open for questioning........as it appeared some did not understand the
voice of God enough.......or didn't listen to everything he said.......
new testament......Jesus came and brought clarity .....................................
as he spoke in the new testament as marriage being the union of 2 people
becoming as one in the sacrament of marriage.

and treating a woman as a precious jewel..........
Through his apostles' and their profound faith in him......
The messages came through.

Did certain ones' misinterpret his voice and his message in the old testament..
possibly.......maybe God said......you cannot have many wives...................
and maybe they left lthat out ....because it was not something they wanted
togive up????

Today does that happen also........?
Does man interpret certain things.....the way he wants .....instead of praying
for understanding and clarity? So as not to give up his riches' or help others'
with his riches'? or not want to give up his /her fornication .......so reads
blindly only what he wants to??

only thru prayer for understanding clarity and the wisdom to know the
difference....will we truly gain the knowledge through his holy spirit to
in fact understand.....
And that again.....takes prayer.........not arguements!
 edisto
Joined: 6/30/2009
Msg: 5
Does Biblical matrimony need a women's liberation revision?
Posted: 11/12/2009 8:01:27 PM
and treating a woman as a precious jewel..........


1 Tim.2:11

11 A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. 12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. 14 And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 15 But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.

...........
I always feel like "a jewel" when someone pretty much writes that I should shut the hell up-

the bible doesn't need a women's liberation revision-
it needs to be totally trashed
or looked at as the fiction it is
written by men, for men, helping in the subordination of women

and no woman feels like a f'ing "jewel" after reading the bible unless they are INSANE~
which does explain some ^^^^^ women
 monalee1
Joined: 10/22/2007
Msg: 6
Does Biblical matrimony need a women's liberation revision?
Posted: 11/12/2009 9:07:12 PM
hi... I read the bible and I feel very respected and valued in Gods Sight... a helpmeet to a good man is a partnership not a dictatorship... each person brings their gifts to the relationship and like a puzzle all pieces are needed to make it complete... man is told to love his wife and she in turn gladly submits her all to him in love... this works for me, now if only I can find a man who remembers his own part b4 he demands submission.. Gods Plan is not by force or might, it is by Love.. at first glance Verses can confuse us but if we diligently seek the Scriptures God rewards our efforts with an Even Deeper Wisdom Still... like any relationship, at first it is confusing but with sincere time and effort deeper parts of the person are revealed .. Trust and Love may take time but True Love and Trust are Worth it... blessings
 8765649326
Joined: 9/29/2009
Msg: 7
Does Biblical matrimony need a women's liberation revision?
Posted: 11/13/2009 5:45:47 PM
well at least your opening yourbible edisto.........kinda beats the weejee board huh?


so sorry the bible does not bring you the peace and understanding you so desire.
with an open mind.....and guidance of the holy spirit..In Jesus name !!
I am sure you will be more successful in your pursuit of the truth.

And Gods' love cannot even compare to a precious jewel..it is so much
greater than that.
What we reep we sow....

 edisto
Joined: 6/30/2009
Msg: 8
Does Biblical matrimony need a women's liberation revision?
Posted: 11/13/2009 7:00:28 PM
well at least your opening yourbible edisto.........kinda beats the weejee board huh?

well, actually "jewel"
I googled -
the "new testament and the subjugation toward women"
and came up with thousands of passages
and picked the one I posted

the closest I get to a bible
is the gideon one
when I travel-
it makes a good door stop
but that's about all it's good for
 tim49250
Joined: 2/9/2005
Msg: 9
Does Biblical matrimony need a women's liberation revision?
Posted: 11/13/2009 11:15:54 PM
Scorpiomover, why are you referencing orthodox Jewish law? Is this what you think the women's liberation revision of Biblical matrimony should or does look like? Interesting analogy though because it was the Old Testament that was considered Jewish law at the time it was written, right?

CheshireCatalyst wrote:

"The solution for many is an open marriage with a marriage contract, saving biblical references to marriage for those who are conservative or evangelical christians. "

This sounds rather reasonable but Jesus Christ is quoted, in the Bible, to say: "Thou shalt not forswear thyself" or "Swear not at all"(Matthew 5:33-34). Below is the entire context of this specific Biblical reference, if you care to read a bit.

(King James Version Matthew 5 verses 33- 37) "31It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:32But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery. 33Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:34But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:"35Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.36Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.37But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil."

CheshireCatalyst. You were the only one who offered any suggestions and that says a lot about your conversation skills. Thanks for your input and for really hearing what my question is. I hope you give the question more consideration from your perspective and share it once again after considering this new information concerning what the the King James text above says about our ability to keep and make "oaths" or contracts of any kind. By the way, what do you mean specifically by "an open marriage" and how do you think this could work better than the monogamous types we see failing all around us these days? Should we just start jumping ship and trying anything because the current marriage boat is sinking? Or do you really see something in your definition of an "open marriage" that might be worth making the switch?


In continuing the thread, for those who care, I'm referring to the Bible. Many fellow Christians consider it to be the ultimate authority concerning Christian ethics within the confines of marriage. I just want to know if other Christians would, for conversation and informative purposes only, revise it's text to give other Christians a clearer picture of what type of marital confines we, as Christians, should have in our modern marriage arrangements? Few Christians would argue that the wording of the Bible concerning matrimony should be read with the ability to reinterpret the text to include women having rights. All I'm asking is how would that ideal Biblical marriage fit into modern times? With some obvious need for change, what changes would or should a Christian couple make in order to fit into a long term workable arrangement. Considering women have a lot more rights nowadays, there are some going to be some rather obvious effects as men and women both transition from somewhat of a "master/slave" type of relationship to a full and equal partnership in Christian marriage.
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 10
view profile
History
Does Biblical matrimony need a women's liberation revision?
Posted: 11/14/2009 10:14:03 AM
RE Msg: 11 by tim49250:
Scorpiomover, why are you referencing orthodox Jewish law? Is this what you think the women's liberation revision of Biblical matrimony should or does look like? Interesting analogy though because it was the Old Testament that was considered Jewish law at the time it was written, right?
It's ONE system. It doesn't have to be the only system that promotes women. But it is a system based on the Old Testament, and the Jews were the ones given the OT. It shows that the OT, at least, isn't against women, but that certain groups of people, who have millions in their numbers, were taught that the OT was against women.

If you want to revise history, that's your choice. But leave the text of the OT out of it. You don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater, and lose all the useful things that it taught the Jews. Just revise your interpretation of the OT.
 monalee1
Joined: 10/22/2007
Msg: 11
Does Biblical matrimony need a women's liberation revision?
Posted: 11/14/2009 11:45:42 AM
"Considering women have a lot more rights nowadays, there are some going to be some rather obvious effects as men and women both transition from somewhat of a "master/slave" type of relationship to a full and equal partnership in Christian marriage."


.. in regard to the first sentence, depends on who you ask and where you live.... I consider Gods Ideal for marriage ~Perfect~, it does not need a revision.. God is the Creator of the institution of marriage, given to mankind for mankinds Greater Good, how can man improve on that??... I have witnessed the marriages of people who seek Gods Ideals and I see equality and respect... blessings
 8765649326
Joined: 9/29/2009
Msg: 12
Does Biblical matrimony need a women's liberation revision?
Posted: 11/14/2009 3:03:00 PM
alrighty 'Lilith'^^^mess.l0 hey Sam---------------Can you send this one back to he**?




Maybe that what you being used for ........a door stop!


maybe the light is too blinding for you??????
did that emoticon scare you too?
 edisto
Joined: 6/30/2009
Msg: 13
Does Biblical matrimony need a women's liberation revision?
Posted: 11/14/2009 3:06:23 PM
so let me get this right, you are asking for what- amendments to the bible or are you going to change the wording of the bible itself to somehow reflect closer the changing mores of our culture concerning the equality of women as far as sex and marriage are concerned, and you think that there is ANY christian group out there that is willing to change the status quo concerning women???

either you, as a christian accept what your church has to offer as its dogma as sister monalee1 says, or, you wise up and realize that the bible is a misogynist book which has for centuries made women into the "slaves" that you yourself recognize

there is no desire to change the views towards women as 2nd class citizens in the christian church, and you know who will fight that from ever happening- women, yes women~
 8765649326
Joined: 9/29/2009
Msg: 14
Does Biblical matrimony need a women's liberation revision?
Posted: 11/14/2009 3:19:59 PM
lilith there is passage in the bible....'better a man/woman keep their mouth shut
and let people think her a fool....then open it up and them know she is one!'

you despise God, you despise the bible........you write about the churches'when
it is apparent you have no knowledge thereof. Yet you post as if you know?

The christian religion does not demeen and degrade woman....or put them as lesser
than a man. because certain individuals claiming christianity do this......it is not
the churchs'!

maybe when you can stop despising yourself ......long enough you can remove
that door stopper......you call the bible......and gain some true knowledge.
 forumologist
Joined: 2/23/2008
Msg: 15
Does Biblical matrimony need a women's liberation revision?
Posted: 11/14/2009 3:47:05 PM
Yes we should make a revision to the bible.

It should be a new book called "The book of Forumologist".

It would be short and it would say:

And the goddess looked upon hot men that work out at the gym with lascivious drooling and proceeded to take numbers in vast quantities. She then called on these mere mortals whenever she pleased, bearing homage to none, having wild multiple orgasms and her oil changed on her car whenever she commanded (for free of course).

And the goddess set down three commandments.

If you're a hot guy and the goddes wants you you must respond by providing multiple orgasms when she says "**** me I'm your dirty slut"
It is not required of goddesses to swallow.
All goddesses are to have a good education, a well paid job and never to be beholden to any mere mortal man.

There, heaven on earth.

Kiddin.
 forumologist
Joined: 2/23/2008
Msg: 16
Does Biblical matrimony need a women's liberation revision?
Posted: 11/14/2009 3:51:50 PM

and no woman feels like a f'ing "jewel" after reading the bible unless they are INSANE~


Bravo.

Burn down the mission lord if you want to stay alive. (Bernie Taupin\Elton John)
 forumologist
Joined: 2/23/2008
Msg: 17
Does Biblical matrimony need a women's liberation revision?
Posted: 11/14/2009 3:57:52 PM

Few Christians would argue that the wording of the Bible concerning matrimony should be read with the ability to reinterpret the text to include women having rights


Are you sure?

There are many non christians who don't think women should have rights as well. Just check out the relationship forums if you don't beleive me.

By the way, excellent thread topic. I shall try to refrain from facetious comments and just sit back and listen for a change although...............

I think I will wait a very long time to see any christians say women should have equal rights to men. Even many non christians use the bible to support inequality when it suits them.
 forumologist
Joined: 2/23/2008
Msg: 18
Does Biblical matrimony need a women's liberation revision?
Posted: 11/14/2009 4:02:18 PM

there is no desire to change the views towards women as 2nd class citizens in the christian church, and you know who will fight that from ever happening- women, yes women~


Oh my, is that ever the most disgraceful god damned (yes I think women damn themselves when they help people abuse them) truth.
 yna6
Joined: 1/21/2007
Msg: 19
Does Biblical matrimony need a women's liberation revision?
Posted: 11/14/2009 5:30:45 PM
Eve brought it upon herself, and guys have been paying for it ever since.
Bring back the "scold" laws!
 forumologist
Joined: 2/23/2008
Msg: 20
Does Biblical matrimony need a women's liberation revision?
Posted: 11/14/2009 5:41:29 PM
Men were created to be the physically strong helpers women needed while they were busy propogating the species but evil, greedy men got it in their heads that they could abuse their strength to subjugate nature and use womens vulnerability to enslave her and everything else.

This is probably the true story of the original sin that has destroyed relations between men and women but men made up a story about a stupid apple and a snake to cover up their own evil works and blame all the trouble they cause on women.

Ya know it's true.

Shame, shame, shame on you boys. You're a disgrace. And more on the women who support your tyrany.
 8765649326
Joined: 9/29/2009
Msg: 21
Does Biblical matrimony need a women's liberation revision?
Posted: 11/14/2009 6:40:51 PM
and who supports your tryany forummultipleprofileologist!
you are rather a dirty pig aren't you? I don't think anyone wants to hear
of your sexual deprivation here..........
oh pardon me,,,,there is one up there that might ...........she sounds as mixed
up and gassed out of the 's a** as you.gee did lilith leave the building?

where is sam and dean when ya need them..

The sacrament of marriage needs nothing except Jesus?God sitting at the center~
not at the sidelines......the center!

and forumologist and lilith. I suggest an exorcist.
 forumologist
Joined: 2/23/2008
Msg: 22
Does Biblical matrimony need a women's liberation revision?
Posted: 11/14/2009 6:51:04 PM
and who supports your tryany forummultipleprofileologist!


multiple profile? lol why would I bother? I'm not fishing.


you are rather a dirty pig aren't you? I don't think anyone wants to hear
of your sexual deprivation here..........


Um I'm in a LTR so yeah I'm a dirty pig alright and my bf isn't complaining. I don't care what you want to hear and BTW - you can't take a joke tight azz


The sacrament of marriage needs nothing except Jesus?God sitting at the center~
not at the sidelines......the center!


Why, is he a voyeur that just likes to watch free porn. Anyway, I think he would get in the way of most positions so....he's not getting in on my scene.


and forumologist and lilith. I suggest an exorcist.


Your suggestion is bunk you looney tune.

You do realise calling a woman Lillith is a huge compliment don't you. Wouldn't want to be compared to that doormat Eve who took all the blame for the mess men made of this world.

Oh my god you are a religious woman. You're the ones that really scare me. You are nuts.
 8765649326
Joined: 9/29/2009
Msg: 23
Does Biblical matrimony need a women's liberation revision?
Posted: 11/14/2009 8:47:01 PM
hey forumwhatever give my condolenses to your significant other..
Satan be Gone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lilith is a Demon on supernatural
omg omg omg omg........

what a shame.............
 edisto
Joined: 6/30/2009
Msg: 24
Does Biblical matrimony need a women's liberation revision?
Posted: 11/14/2009 8:52:03 PM
oh yes jewel-

I am "lilith"
and "rather a dirty pig"
ohhh yeah baby

any time you're allowed out of your insane asylum
let's get together -
ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh yes, yes, yes, oh yes, baaaaaaaaby

or, as you say...........
omg, omg, omg, yes, yes, yes, oh yes, omg-
 monalee1
Joined: 10/22/2007
Msg: 25
Does Biblical matrimony need a women's liberation revision?
Posted: 11/15/2009 8:21:05 PM
hi.. Adam loved Eve so much that he chose to die with her in disobedience, I do not see abuse to Eve in that.. the first pair we equal in that they were to respect the other.... God gave women many important tasks throughout the bible , study the bible in prayer for yourselves and you will get a Spiritual understanding of Gods Love for both men and women.... I love God and His Holy Bible, I do not feel less or second to a man because I am letting Gods Spirit Teach me, not society or men in society.... blessings
Show ALL Forums  > Religion  > Does Biblical matrimony need a "women's liberation" revision?