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 myblueshadow
Joined: 11/11/2009
Msg: 1
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child support and visitationPage 1 of 4    (1, 2, 3, 4)
Currently, at least in the states, child support and visitation are not dependent on each other. Do you believe that the two should be connected and/or dependent on one another? And why do you believe the way you do?
 thatusernameistaken
Joined: 5/4/2009
Msg: 2
child support and visitation
Posted: 12/8/2009 11:53:09 AM
Put me down for a order of what WindRoper is serving. I agree 100%.
 big pacific
Joined: 7/2/2009
Msg: 3
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child support and visitation
Posted: 12/8/2009 11:53:13 AM
And likewise, just because one parent is ordered to pay doesn't mean they are automatically granted visitation.
 myrgth
Joined: 8/15/2009
Msg: 4
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child support and visitation
Posted: 12/8/2009 11:57:19 AM
While on first blush they don't appear to be related, I do know that you can make a pretty solid case to cease visitation if a parent proves to be a deadbeat.

For the most part, often those that don't pay support don't honor visitation agreements either (as in they don't show up) so I'm not sure why they would need to be tied together.

My gut reaction is that no, they shouldn't be dependent on each other. There is too much room for abuse if there is from spiteful parents that can't wait for any little thing to come up to get back at the other. Miss this week of child support then too bad, you don't get to spend time with the kids! Terrible idea. The only ones suffering would be the children. Relationships with children aren't built on money but on time spent.

Support and visitation are separate issues and should remain so.
 Notdesper8atall
Joined: 6/27/2008
Msg: 5
child support and visitation
Posted: 12/8/2009 3:38:22 PM
"Currently, at least in the states, child support and visitation are not dependent on each other."


Nor should they be.. It is not now, nor should it ever be a "you have to pay to get to play kind of deal."

 singlesuperdad
Joined: 8/26/2009
Msg: 6
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child support and visitation
Posted: 12/8/2009 4:40:39 PM
8 posts and eveyone agrees so far. I agree with everyone so far
 ValkyrieHJR
Joined: 8/8/2009
Msg: 7
child support and visitation
Posted: 12/8/2009 4:42:41 PM
I don't think they should be connected either. My ex currently does not pay CS, mainly because he is unemployed but he is able to see his children whenever he wants. Just because he doesn't pay CS does not mean he does not love them. (That's a whole nother can of worms, as far as my story goes and one I just don't want to open up again.)
 Capitano_Blaugh
Joined: 3/18/2008
Msg: 8
child support and visitation
Posted: 12/8/2009 4:43:51 PM
Personally, I think this determination should be left completely up to the women, since they are always fair-minded, are always the ones who are wronged and believe in the best interests of the child at all times...

....

 ValkyrieHJR
Joined: 8/8/2009
Msg: 9
child support and visitation
Posted: 12/8/2009 4:45:44 PM
Is that sarcasm dripping off your chin Capitano?

 KarmicEvolution
Joined: 11/22/2008
Msg: 10
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child support and visitation
Posted: 12/8/2009 6:38:53 PM
Willfully not paying child support should effect visitation, situations beyond control should not.

If the parents were still together and one lost their job (for example) you wouldnt exclude that person from seeing the family, the parents being separated shouldnt change that.
 KarmicEvolution
Joined: 11/22/2008
Msg: 11
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child support and visitation
Posted: 12/8/2009 7:28:30 PM

That will get you into trouble. You cannot deny someone visitation/access to their child even if they refuse to pay child support. Courts will punish someone that goes out of their way to deny visitation/access to a child just as they will punish someone who doesn't pay their child support.


Im not saying its going to happen, or does happen, or doesnt happen. Im just saying if someone chooses not to help provide for their child its completely different then if someone is unable to help provide for their child.
 carolann0308
Joined: 12/9/2006
Msg: 12
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child support and visitation
Posted: 12/9/2009 9:13:59 AM
I would not deny my children their right to see their other parent just because he has not paid support in 18 months.
It does gnaw at my gut daily but what can you do?
 glamazon girl
Joined: 10/6/2009
Msg: 13
child support and visitation
Posted: 12/9/2009 11:07:15 AM
No, they shouldn't be connected. People do enough to screw up their kids, intentionally or accidentally, why make it even harder on the children? If someone uses their kids as bargaining chips (or the law allows them too) it will only hurt them. I don't want my kids, as adults, to think back and realize that mommy never let us see daddy. Way to mess up your adult relationship with your kids! If they don't see their dad, it's his choice. Not mine. Which means he deals with the aftermath of them not including him in their daily life and experiences. I just enjoy them & try to never take them for granted.
 myblueshadow
Joined: 11/11/2009
Msg: 14
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child support and visitation
Posted: 12/9/2009 11:14:19 AM
I think it's interesting that most people seem to believe these are two distinct issues, but on thread after thread, I see people wanting to either stop visitation because support isn't being paid or stop paying support because visitation isn't being granted.

To further this discussion, I'm curious if you think they should be granted together. What I mean is, if child support is sought, should visitation automatically be granted? Or should courts cease automatically ordering child support when visitation is sought?
 singlesuperdad
Joined: 8/26/2009
Msg: 15
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child support and visitation
Posted: 12/9/2009 11:30:13 AM

To further this discussion, I'm curious if you think they should be granted together. What I mean is, if child support is sought, should visitation automatically be granted? Or should courts cease automatically ordering child support when visitation is sought?


No, this would not work. Because, if the NCP can't have visitation for whatever reason they still owe CS. So what, if the are violent and drug addicts that would abuse the kids and can't have visitation, they don't have to pay child support? No that's not right. It has to stay seperate.
 myblueshadow
Joined: 11/11/2009
Msg: 16
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child support and visitation
Posted: 12/9/2009 12:35:57 PM
I see posts on threads all the time where woman are calling the father of their child dead beats and hate allowing the visitation. I also see a lot of men complaining that women withhold visitation on all kinds of whims, whether they are paying child support or not.

I’m not sure I entirely agree with blanket child support orders, but that really wasn’t the intent of this post. (Warning, I am going to use some gender stereotypes in my statement, but believe that they apply to either gender.)

What I am getting at is that if a man seeks visitation, he is automatically ordered by the court to pay child support. The woman has to do nothing to request this, i.e. initiate a court action or wait for child support to begin. It is retroactive to the child’s birth, even if the man was completely unaware of the child’s existence until years later.

However, if a woman seeks child support, a man is not automatically granted any kind of parental rights or visitation. He is ordered to pay child support, again retro-active to the child’s birth. But he must initiate a court action in order to obtain any sort of parental right/visitation and this action could be drug out for months or even years, with him paying child support but having no right to any contact with his child.

Obviously, there are exceptions, and the woman should bring those up in court and the court can decide if the NCP is a danger to the child and shouldn’t have unsupervised visits. What I see as fair is that they are decided at the same time in one court action.
 carterscutie85
Joined: 5/31/2007
Msg: 17
child support and visitation
Posted: 12/9/2009 12:46:54 PM
I don't think visitation should automatically be granted just because some pays support. What if the NCP is not a good parent but pays his financial responsibilities? There are plenty of people who pay but don't see their kids for whatever reasons. I think visitation should be granted on the premise that the child will be safe and loved with whoever he/she is with, and that the child will be taken care of with whoever they are with.

Every child deserves to be supported, at least financially, by both parents, regardless of the circumstances surrounding the conception/birth of the child or the breakup of the parents. But to automatically grant visitation just because the NCP is paying their dues, is not a good idea because u have no way of knowing whether the child will be safe with the NCP.

That's what drawn-out custody visitations in court are for-to make sure the child is going to be in a safe environment. What if I had a child with someone, and he pays his support, but then I later find out he's dealing drugs or doing other horrible things? You think he should automatically have visits because he pays his support? No, the NCP should only have visits if the child is going to be taken care of and not neglected while in their care.
 carterscutie85
Joined: 5/31/2007
Msg: 18
child support and visitation
Posted: 12/9/2009 1:01:33 PM
I do agree that quite a few men have been required to pay retro-active child support for children they didn't even know they had and I don't agree with the practice.


How can u tell whether the man even knew about the kid or not? I bet loads of men cry the "I didn't even know I had a kid" tale when in reality the child's mother probably did tell them about the child and they were just in denial. If a women tested several men before finding the real father, I could believe he didn't know he had a kid and shouldn't have to pay c/s from the day the child was born. But if she only tests 1 man, it would be hard to tell whether she is telling the truth when she claims she told him, or whether he is lying when he says he didn't know about the kid.

Is the retro-active child support rule different from state to state or something? I sure as heck didn't get c/s from the day my son was born. It was ordered to start in October-a full 5 months after he was born, and the ex was not in arrears from the day he was born (even though I do recieve state assistance) Which I think is BS, by the way, because I told him several times my son was his, but because he wanted to play games and demanded a paternity test, I supported him by myself because it took 5 months to get the DNA test ordered, get the results, and get the c/s ordered. It's not fair to me that I had to do it by myself and he got off scott-free for those first few months.
 drgnflylady
Joined: 11/25/2009
Msg: 19
child support and visitation
Posted: 12/9/2009 1:22:47 PM
I feel that if not paying child support is the only issue than there should be no relation between child visitation and not paying support. However, if the person not paying support has other isssues like drug use or buying property or other expensive material objects... than it should reflect on the persons charector. I think that is something that should reflect how the persons choices are not centered around the priorities of the child/children. I dont believe that abusing the circumstance of financial difficulties that everyone has from time to time is acceptable. Divorced or not... its not about the problems togather or independently concerning the adults. Its about the kids. As well, I get really upsett when I hear a parent hold their kids as ransom to squeeze a dime out of another parent. Those issues should be handled seperatly without mixing the kids into the situation.
 Notdesper8atall
Joined: 6/27/2008
Msg: 20
child support and visitation
Posted: 12/9/2009 4:10:27 PM
OP I know in the case of divorce in my state the first hearing does two things .. It sets up support amounts and a visitation schedule. Getting to that poaint may take a month or more and I knw during that time during my first divorce I didnt get to see my children for over 57 days as nothing was oredered yet. So yes ther eare vindictive women out there. I married two of them..lol. As for the case of out of wedlock I have no clue, nor woud I hazard a guess.
 carterscutie85
Joined: 5/31/2007
Msg: 21
child support and visitation
Posted: 12/10/2009 4:49:02 AM
^^

emotional disability is where a person is claiming they can't work due to mental problems like bipolar, depression, schizophrenia, etc. What's sad is there are so many people who play the system using those excuses and are able to get SSD because of it, when in reality there is nothing wrong with them. That in turn makes it harder for people like my dad (who has liver disease and only 5% of his liver left, amongst other things, and has been working to pay into the system for 45 years) to get their benefits. He had to wait 5 years to get approved, while people who claim to be nuts sit on their arses and get their benefits lickity split.

I went to school with a guy who was perfectly normal. Went to all regular classes (and no special needs classes) He didn't have many friends, but he was a normal person. I ran into him a few months after graduation and overheard him telling someone how he went down to social security, told them he had a learning disability, and was approved for a check. Really, is that why he got better grades them me, because he has a learning disability?

I can't really blame the judge for not taking any of her SSD money. It really is based on how much you put in, and for some people that doesn't amount to a whole lot. My dad's wife also gets SSD, but because she never really worked her whole life, she only gets about $400. If she had to pay child support out of that, there wouldn't be a whole lot left to live off of. It sucks that because of your ex's disability, your kids lose, but at the same time a lot of judges won't take so much out of a person's check that they have nothing to live off of.
 myblueshadow
Joined: 11/11/2009
Msg: 22
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child support and visitation
Posted: 12/10/2009 12:27:25 PM
I wholeheartedly believe they should be determined at the same time. My significant other has been paying child support since the day his child was born. He and the mother were never married, but he willingly took on his role of father and went to the child support office to set up the support. At that time, they got along well and just verbally agreed on visitation. Over the years, she has allowed him to see his son less and less, recently not allowing any contact for over 4 months. At that time, he decided he would have to file for some sort of legal visitation agreement. This process, according to the mediator, could take up to a year if she fights this. In the meantime, he has no legal right to be involved in his child's life. He does, however, have to continue to pay child support. If that schedule had been determined at the same time the support was determined, this would never have become an issue. He has never had a problem with paying child support because it was for the care of his son, but contact with his father is just as important, if not more important, than his financial support.
 thatusernameistaken
Joined: 5/4/2009
Msg: 23
child support and visitation
Posted: 12/10/2009 12:33:31 PM

In the meantime, he has no legal right to be involved in his child's life


Wrong. If there is no legal order specifying visitation times and dates then he has the exact same rights for access to the child as the mother does. Arrange for a day visit and he could just keep his child with him, she has the same legal rights as he does for then trying to gain access herself.

I just went through this a little over a year ago. My ex and I had an arrangement for custody that was made outside of the courts where I had primary custody and she had visitation. After her lawyer told her she could get thousands of dollars a month off me if she had custody she went to their school during the day and literally took them from me and moved them two towns away. I contacted my lawyer and the police but was shit out of luck as there was no legal court registered document. It took a rush hearing by the courts in order for me to gain custody back (about a week and a half later).
 thatusernameistaken
Joined: 5/4/2009
Msg: 24
child support and visitation
Posted: 12/10/2009 12:55:34 PM

I have no formal access set up with my ex, we sort it between ourselves and I have no desire to go down the legal route at all.


All I'm trying to point out is that no matter how civil a person may think things are, all it takes is one incident and your life can get turned upside down and you'll have a fight on your hands.

Cheaper, easier, quicker and less confrontational to take that "mutual understanding" that a separated couple may have, jot it down, and get it entered in with the courts.
 anyoneoutthier
Joined: 3/19/2007
Msg: 25
child support and visitation
Posted: 12/10/2009 2:40:23 PM
A friend of mine was paying child suport but he never did here from him either a letter or a phone call, so he talked to a lawer and started making child suport payments to him and than good old mom came after him but the lawer steped in and told the judge what was up and he told the mother what had to be done, well the boy did call and wrote letters and the mom got her suport. funny thing is when he truned 18 he went to live with good old dad . If a person is paying child suport than they should have vistion right . Unless they are a child mosteler or abuser.
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