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Joined: 12/9/2009
Msg: 1
NarcissismPage 1 of 2    (1, 2)
i have come the conclusion that a loved one suffers from Narcissistic Personality Disorder.
because of this, i am their only remaining family. the rest of the family has disowned this person, thus only making the condition worse.
in my opinion, they need unconditional help.
studies show professional therapy to be unsuccessful....
do all people share these narcissistic tendencies?
is there a cure?
when is it time to ''cut ties'' (if ever)?
Joined: 11/15/2009
Msg: 2
Posted: 1/6/2010 11:21:30 AM

studies show professional therapy to be unsuccessful....

There is no "cure" for personality disorders.

The most someone can get out of therapy is the ability to learn to act in a way that society finds acceptable. But that's only if they WANT to, and only happens when they want to avoid the trouble they cause for themselves with their narcissistic behavior. Such as- job loss because they don't work (or play) well with others.

The change of behavior is only when it's to their advantage (part of their narcissistic thought process- it's all about them), it isn't something they do on a constant basis, or for anyone elses benefit.
Joined: 7/13/2009
Msg: 3
Posted: 1/6/2010 11:36:08 AM
What kind of things are they doing? Are they a compulsive liar by any chance?

I think identifying the problem and acknowledging it is the first step.
Joined: 12/9/2009
Msg: 4
Posted: 1/6/2010 12:12:49 PM
it seem the biggest problem ( at least where other egos are concerned) is diminishing and belittling others character. and hiding behind a veil of self righteousness.

i agree these problems arise from childhood and other traumatic experiences. but i think there is more to it. lots of people with 'bad' childhoods recover with more ''wisdom'' and insight than someone who's been through less trials and tribulations. right?

and yes i couldn't agree more, that families should stick together no matter what.
unfortunately it seems easier when the 'problem' is out of sight/mind.
Joined: 12/31/2009
Msg: 5
Posted: 1/7/2010 6:41:23 AM
Don't tolerate belittling.

If they can't control it despite your requests to cut it, cut ties.
Joined: 12/9/2009
Msg: 6
Posted: 1/7/2010 7:50:03 AM
so you would ''cut ties'' with a 'good' parent because he or she is wrapped up in a d- illusion? this is supposedly some one you love, they just need some help loving themselves.
there has to be a way.........even if it is simply tolerating their behavior ....
Joined: 10/3/2008
Msg: 7
Posted: 1/7/2010 2:48:43 PM

and yes i couldn't agree more, that families should stick together no matter what.
unfortunately it seems easier when the 'problem' is out of sight/mind.

"no matter what" ?

F___ that .. "no matter what" , even if one of them is an axe murderer?

why, exactly>? why should you 'stick with them no matter what', even if they are putting your own life in danger, for example?

or destroying YOUR life, your children's, keeping you up all night worrying, etc., etc. ?
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 8
view profile
Posted: 1/10/2010 9:00:08 PM
If you can handle the load, without being a martyr, why not keep handling it?

nobody is perfect.
Joined: 10/23/2009
Msg: 9
Posted: 1/10/2010 11:55:26 PM
Personality disorders can not be treated with psychiatric medications. Personality disorders can be treated with psychotherapy, though they take MUCH longer to make progress with than most other mental health issues. Additionally, most people suffering personality disorders have no interest in therapy and seldom invest in it. Personality disorders are generally axis II problems and making them Axis I (reason for visit) is frowned upon by many insurance companies; hence the client will have to pay out of pocket. Most research suggests that real progress in working with personality disorders takes places over two to three years. Group therapy is often a more cost effective option, but there are very few clinicians that offer groups for PD clients.

The most success I have had treating Personality Disorder clients has been when they came to counseling for other issues and working with they PD was intertwined with another problem they actually wanted help with. Most PD work I do, I do within the context of family therapy and couples counseling where the PD is a contributing factor to the household conflict.
Joined: 3/15/2006
Msg: 10
Posted: 1/11/2010 11:36:05 AM

Personality disorders can not be treated with psychiatric medications.

Uhhhmmm, it seems that the Mayo Clinic disagrees with you:

Medications. There are no medications specifically approved by the Food and Drug Administration to treat personality disorders. However, several types of psychiatric medications may help with various personality disorder symptoms.

* Antidepressant medications. Antidepressants may be useful if you have a depressed mood, anger, impulsivity, irritability or hopelessness, which may be associated with personality disorders.
* Mood-stabilizing medications. As their name suggests, mood stabilizers can help even out mood swings or reduce irritability, impulsivity and aggression.
* Anti-anxiety medications. These may help if you have anxiety, agitation or insomnia. But in some cases, they can increase impulsive behavior.
* Antipsychotic medications. Also called neuroleptics, these may be helpful if your symptoms include losing touch with reality (psychosis) or in some cases if you have anxiety or anger problems.

This reads, to me, that there are medication options (of course, no cure.) Therapy is NO cure either. JMO
Joined: 10/23/2009
Msg: 11
Posted: 1/11/2010 12:40:34 PM

If you look at list of symptoms that Mayo says that psychiatric medications can help with, and you compare those to the symptoms of various Personality Disorders, you will find that the treatable symptoms are not the core components of Personality Disorders. They are the core symptoms of Mood Disorders which medications treat well. People with personality disorders often suffer periphery symptoms that medications can help with, but the core components are rightfully not mentioned by Mayo. Personality disorders are not the result of chemical imbalances, they are the results personal experience, learning and often trauma.
Joined: 3/15/2006
Msg: 12
Posted: 1/11/2010 1:01:01 PM
^^^^Because I wasn't quite sure how to take your post and your "diagnosis" I simply googled "personality disorder treatments" and pulled up the Mayo Clinic. Much like the CDC, I'd like to think (no offense to you or anyone else) they are probably a fairly reliable source of information.

Personality disorders are not the result of chemical imbalances, they are the results personal experience, learning and often trauma.

Hmmmm....from the Mayo Clinic:

By Mayo Clinic staff

Personality is the combination of thoughts, emotions and behaviors that makes you unique. It's the way you view, understand and relate to the outside world, as well as how you see yourself. Personality forms during childhood, shaped through an interaction of two factors:

* Inherited tendencies, or your genes. These are aspects of your personality passed on to you by your parents, such as shyness or having a happy outlook. This is sometimes called your temperament. It's the "nature" part of the nature vs. nurture debate.
* Environment, or your life situations. This is the surroundings you grew up in, events that occurred, and relationships with family members and others. It includes such things as the type of parenting you had, whether loving or abusive. This is the "nurture" part of the nature vs. nurture debate.

Personality disorders are thought to be caused by a combination of these genetic and environmental influences. Some research suggests that you may have a genetic vulnerability to developing a personality disorder and that your life situation may trigger the actual development of a personality disorder.

It appears the staff at Mayo think these disorders go WELL beyond "nurture."

It does not say, nor did I that this is a chemical imbalance. It does appear to run deeper than simple life circumstance/past trauma/etc. Just their opinion.
Joined: 12/31/2009
Msg: 13
Posted: 1/11/2010 1:30:24 PM

Yes, I'd cut ties.

If you stay connected to someone that is damaging to you despite attempts at negotiating, you're not doing either of you a favor.

Same goes for drug abuse or alcoholism.

Don't enable it.

Move on and take care of yourself.

 Island home
Joined: 7/5/2009
Msg: 14
Posted: 1/18/2010 1:16:03 AM
Actually, for over 15 years it has been known that many people who are prone to extreme violence were found to have a seriously underactive portion of the brain, and a video game that exercised that portion of the brain was found to completely rehabilitate them.

Any clues on where I could reference that would be appreciated
Joined: 10/8/2007
Msg: 15
Posted: 1/18/2010 2:49:39 PM
I dated someone with narcissistic personality disorder and had at least one boss who had it. The problem is they will use and abuse any of those who they consider a "source of supply". If you are helping them unconditionally.....they found their perfect enabler.

Once you become a "source of supply" you must cut your ties. If not, they will destroy you both emotionally and financially. They simply cannot help themselves without years of modification behavior therapy that makes them aware of their own personal demons. Even then, they aren't well...but you can call them on their behavior at least. If you believe different, you are falling for their facade. Even someone undergoing treatment that actually has it, is not well.

Many people with this disorder are very bright and master manipulators. By supporting them, you are not helping them because as long as they are being helped, they won't seek professional help least not seriously and honestly. They will kick up a stink, blame others, try to make you feel sorry for them etc. etc. but in the end, tend to only seek serious help when the behavior has caused so much damage they are hitting a rock bottom (which they will hit again and again until they acknowledge just how dsyfucntional they are...which is very hard with this particular disorder).

I am a very giving and loving person and because of that, can't have people like that in my life. They will justify their actions because in their heart of hearts they feel a sense of entitlement that they should just be allowed to behave the way they do with no consequences and those that make them face those consequences are bad people....when they are the best people they could have in their lives because they won't enable their bullsh!t.

If you think you know don't. They hide most of their dark side because many know its socially unacceptable to behave the way they do. Its usually behind closed doors you see the worst of the worst of them.
Joined: 10/8/2007
Msg: 16
Posted: 1/20/2010 4:50:21 PM
A few on this thread have mentioned this disorder is the result of childhood abuse. Perhaps. But often, just the opposite can unleash a Narcissist.

My ex narcissist was abused by his father but overly praised by his mother who was compensating for the abuse. He learned how to bully from his father and how to be charming so he could get whatever he wanted from his mother.

She died when he was 18 and elevated to saint hood status. The dead can't judge. This allowed for his narcissistic fantasies about reality to get out of hand because no one is going to contradict someone's opinion of their dead parent.

She was his crutch for bad behavior even from beyond the grave.
Joined: 12/9/2009
Msg: 17
Posted: 1/27/2010 8:43:25 PM
@ 2ears1mouth
{But I also think a lot of people -- being past-centered as people tend to be -- would not want people to "go unpunished," even if their capacity for self-control was scientifically proven to be severely limited.}
~ i agree, but i also think these people you speak of, are suffering from some narcissistic symptoms (myself included) themselves. i believe in at least attempting to rehabilitate even the 'axe-murderers' mention in earlier posts. otherwise we too are letting our emotions interfere with understanding. punishment doesn't teach the perpetrator anything unless they have the mental capacity to understand why there actions are unexceptable .
Joined: 2/14/2006
Msg: 18
Posted: 2/22/2012 5:52:08 PM
There is someone in my family that I also suspect of this.
He only calls when HE wants to talk. If I talk about something he doesn't understand he refuses to accept my authority on it but he wants me to accept his on the things he knows better. He won't even read or digest anything I give him that is someone other than me talking about it. Every time he talks to someone it becomes an argument to him with hand waving and downtalking. When he rants he repeats the same thing over and over even if you give him evidence of the opposite. He's extremely misogynistic and women are low value to him.

Here's an example of his behavior.
He calls me up out of nowhere and says he is on his way to my house with a car.
I say why - he says that he needs to park it at my house because it doesn't have plates. I say for how long? He doesn't respond. I say look - you didn't ask me this ahead of time - was I allowed to say no or do you think just because we are family you get the run of my house. Then I laid down the rule 30 days max it can stay there and I'm not responsible if the neighbors call the police on it.

When he shows up I come out to him and the towtruck driver and say - make sure you leave enough space for me to get through on this side with the trash can because it's large so get it as far on the right as you can. He says - don't listen to the women cackle - will you just shut up while I talk to him about where it should go. Then we start arguing - I tell him to show a little respect - after all - he is getting a favor from me.

When the towtruck guy pulls it in the plate is facing out, I say are you sure you want that side out - it's showing that the plate is missing? I KNOW what I'm doing he says - I say fine, like I said I'm not responsible for the neighbors. Then he says he has "wasted" too much of the towtruck man's time already. If it's to be turned around he can drive it while me and the nearly 70 year old woman that drove him to my house can push it. I laughed. (My driveway is a slope and I chased a car down it once - it goes fast)

He thanks the towtruck driver and the woman pays for his tow silently.

Anyway - over 4 hours later we are in the process of moving his other car and he continues the same antics. Every man involved he was indebted to, every woman was a nag. I don't see anything wrong with cutting people like that out of your life.
We had a male towtruck driver for the second tow, a male that came out of a bar and moved their car for him to get one out of where it was parked.

He practically gave the man a BJ that moved his car and thanked him doing the guy hug thing and thanked the towtruck guy #2 heartily.

At one point at the gas station he got mad because I walked away after he screamed in my ear in a car. I stood on the side of the road and smoked a cig ignoring the whole thing. After I returned he started talking about how I was "kicking snow" over there and that if I was going to do something I needed to "step up" then he's raising his hands up at me when I say shut up and he says "make me!" over and over. People around the gas station started staring at him.

He embarrasses us everytime we go somewhere with him. He gets loud and obnoxious and has to bring attention to himself. I really despise even going to dinner with him because I know it will become a spectacle. It's not that I care what others think but it's when little kids look at him that I think - what an example they are getting about how to act in public as a grown man.

He didn't thank either of us at all for that entire thing and the other family member paid for both of the eventual tows and a storage rental unit for some tools. We just heard his mouth non-stop.

Unfortunately he still doesn't listen. When I left for the night I said don't call me again. The next day he called, I hung up and he continues to do it. Last time I went years without talking to him and he only got back into ok graces because he's nice on the holidays. The man has issues - big big issues and I can't solve them.

The way I deal with him is just to hang up on him. He calls repeatedly but only because he is bored. I've told him that I believe him to have a mental problem - he refuses to seek help even when I said that I would pay for it. There were times in his life he did some uppers pretty heavily to stay awake for working 2 jobs and working on his fixer upper house. I believe they affected his mind. My family keeps saying that I'M wrong for being cold to him ... he is family etc. When I change my number he gets it from them.

I was told by another family member that he came knocking on my door the other day and said I wouldn't answer - he wanted to introduce his new g/f to me even after I told him not to call. I didn't hear him knock at the door but that sounds like him - show up because I won't answer his calls. Once he plinked my window with rocks and climbed on top of my central air conditioner to scream in the window because I was asleep. Family has limits for me - for them it's some secret bond I don't get.
Joined: 2/27/2010
Msg: 19
view profile
Posted: 2/22/2012 6:37:58 PM
Narcissism is caused by a child's needs not being met, or that the child doesn't believe his needs are being met. Sadly your family is doing exactly the opposite of what is needed to get this person well.
What needs to happen is this fellow needs to be able to go into child mode and freak out (like he wasn't allowed to before or didn't allow himself to do) about what he needs, the parent or caregiver needs to hear him and then make sure this need gets met , then there has to be comfort so that he feels he will be O.K. There can be no holding back this cry for care.
With so many children's needs not getting met for so many reasons (death of the parent, divorce, 2 working parents, idiots parenting etc.) there will be more narcissists on the way.
Do not confuse this need for care for lack of empathy. It's not the same condition.
Throw away the drugs for Narcissism, drugs don't help.
Joined: 2/14/2006
Msg: 20
Posted: 2/22/2012 7:06:58 PM
Death of a parent doesn't guarantee narcissism. My father died before I even hit puberty and I don't expect people to do things for me. I also don't rant at them if they are doing something for me. This guy gets his needs met alright and it's by every family member that does things for him over and over again while he acts like they are satan incarnate for telling him no. If you tell him no he whines until someone calls you and talks you into it - it's just short term, he doesn't ask that often, yada yada.

He once stayed at my house for 2 weeks because no one else would take him and his g/f of 19 with a kid in - believe he was 32ish. I felt sorry for her kid more than him. In the middle of bringing in his nasty couch he broke a glass stand I had in my front room and scratched up my door. They don't sell the stand anymore - I couldn't replace it. He wouldn't even take that nasty couch with him when he left and they left gobs of stuff in the bedroom I let them use including dirty diapers that I got to clean up along with the food they didn't want in my fridge that we kept separate. Food stamp money went to good use that day when I threw it all away - it wasn't anything I eat - crap like eggs and meat you have to cook.

I had to cut it into pieces with a hacksaw paying 400 to rent one of those rolloff containers to be rid of it finally after 2 years of him saying he would take it out and making dates then reneging on them. I put it into a spring cleaning fling and cleaned out my basement during. That way it wasn't just me paying for his couch removal but everything I could find to shove in that container.

The sickest part about him is that he wants nothing more than to have a child. He tries to impregnate every woman he meets. He believes that with a child things will suddenly be great and that's missing in his life. I saw him the 2 weeks with that kid at my house. He didn't do anything for it because it wasn't his. His love for children is only if he thinks the kid is his. My guess is he thinks that he will breed a personal punching bag to take his lip for 20 years.

I don't remember the word but there is some word that I'm not supposed to say around him because she was molested by some man and he said it to her. When I have said it he goes off on me - I TOLD YOU NOT TO SAY THAT WORD!!. Yeah, that's what I'm done dealing with. Everything is about him.

Just typing this stuff about him is ticking me off lol I need to go have a cig.
Joined: 1/20/2009
Msg: 21
Posted: 2/23/2012 7:52:18 AM

" ... do all people share these narcissistic tendencies?
is there a cure?
when is it time to ''cut ties'' (if ever)? ... "

No, all people do NOT share narcissistic tendencies to the degree that they have the Narcissistic Personality Disorder you ask about. All people may have a streak of pride or vanity they display at times, but that's worlds apart from NPD.

I watched my father attempt to deal with his older middle brother (Dad was the youngest of the three), and no matter what he did or how often he tried to help his OMB, it was never good enough. I used to wonder when Dad would just hang up on OMB when he called to say he needed 'this' or 'that' done on a weekend Dad was off and should have been enjoying himself, but Dad never hung up on him. I finally figured he complied with OMB's 'requests' (I call them 'demands') because it was easier to do that than listen to the wails of his three sisters and their mother were he to say 'no' to OMB.

Is there a time to 'cut ties'? Yes. Once you've reached that point in a relationship when it's clearly seen that the one doing the non-stop using only needs or knows you when you can DO something for THEM to satisfy THEIR needs or wants and has no regard for what it costs you (monetarily or psychologically) to get it done, it's time to tell them goodbye. I've done that twice now in this lifetime and haven't looked back or regretted it once it was done. We are not put here to be enslaved by the selfishness of others who only pretend to care or like us until we've served whatever 'needs' they use us for. The sooner people like this are cut out of our life, the healthier we are for no longer having to deal with them.
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 22
view profile
Posted: 3/4/2012 11:23:03 AM
are chemical imbalances a scientifically accepted form of sickness?

if they are, I, for one, did not know that.
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