Plentyoffish dating forums are a place to meet singles and get dating advice or share dating experiences etc. Hopefully you will all have fun meeting singles and try out this online dating thing... Remember that we are the largest free online dating service, so you will never have to pay a dime to meet your soulmate.
     
Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > so is a hallucinatory vision behind modern philosphy and science ?      Home login  
 AUTHOR
 desertrhino
Joined: 11/30/2007
Msg: 2
view profile
History
so is a hallucinatory vision behind modern philosphy and science ?Page 1 of 2    (1, 2)
...except that he, himself, specified that they were "three dreams." And that they inspired his future work, not created it. You've never been inspired by a simple dream to work towards something?

I know you want to make EVERYTHING about hallucinogenic enlightenment, kind of like Light and his Growing Earth fetish, but give it a rest, willya?
 DearlyDeparted™
Joined: 1/21/2010
Msg: 5
so is a hallucinatory vision behind modern philosphy and science ?
Posted: 1/26/2010 7:33:00 PM

give it a rest will ya, to me translates only as DENIAL ..


Wha? ...seriously, he makes a valid point, ...it's otherwise known as "billboarding", or "agenda trolling".

You know, ...like people who make everything bout "the Bible"?


so is a hallucinatory vision behind modern philosphy and science ?

No, because what's "behind modern philosphy and science" = many different things and people -> And there's pretty much a thread on that subject already.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 6
so is a hallucinatory vision behind modern philosphy and science ?
Posted: 1/26/2010 7:33:41 PM
Perhaps if Descartes was the ONLY "father of modern philosophy and science."

I think he had help.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 8
so is a hallucinatory vision behind modern philosphy and science ?
Posted: 1/27/2010 7:58:12 AM

Are celestial objects not in perpetual motion?


He's referring to perpetual mechanical motion. As in perpetual motion machines. Celestial objects have momentum.
 Val101
Joined: 1/24/2010
Msg: 9
so is a hallucinatory vision behind modern philosphy and science ?
Posted: 1/27/2010 8:29:20 PM
I wouldnt call rené descartes the father of science and philosophy. The general thought during that time period was still largely based on euclidean geometry and greek philosophy.

Since the mathematics and philosophy up at that point had contributions by many sources, some must have done so without resorting to substance abuse, by sheer probabilities.
 DearlyDeparted™
Joined: 1/21/2010
Msg: 11
so is a hallucinatory vision behind modern philosphy and science ?
Posted: 1/28/2010 3:39:50 AM
... as a Christian my opinions and perspectives do come from the bible

Has to do with "Modern Science and Philosophy" ...how?

my agenda is to have a voice, just like you

Quote me if you must, but exclude me from your delusions please, my agenda is harmonious with the letter and intent of this forum's rules and guidelines, yours cannot make that claim, as is glaringly evident.


considered the father of modern science and philosophy ?

...there's a thread for this already.
 themadfiddler
Joined: 12/9/2009
Msg: 13
so is a hallucinatory vision behind modern philosphy and science ?
Posted: 1/28/2010 8:48:23 PM


Are you saying that because a persons perspective is from a certain book, then that perspective is not valid? If a persons outlook, perspective, philosophy, or view on life originates in a book you may not have much respect for, that means that persons outlook, perspective, etc..... has no place, or should not be expressed?


No I believe he would say, as he is not in the building and I am sure would appreciate my stepping in for him in this regard, that firstly an opinion based on religion about science will not be an informed and educated one - note I said based on religion. This does not preclude that a person of faith may actually have a scientific background. It is very specific...it is stating that a person who says all knowledge derives from God, this making an unprovable and untestable claim when perfectly acceptable and plausible naturalistic claims exist that answer the questions provided, is via the rules of maximum parsimony out of their depth in the argument.

On top of that, there is another forum here reserved for such statements. They are very clearly off-topic here, and yes, it is quite against the rules of this forum to express them here...like it or lump it. Don't believe me, you may look it up yourself, but I can tell you as a former moderator of the forums and having read them, I know the place for a religious claim is the Religion/Supernatural forum. It is not a matter of "freedom of expression" but a matter of not yodeling during the opera.

My respect for someone's religious beliefs, or lack their of, is immaterial. It simply does not belong in this forum or this discussion. End of story.
 themadfiddler
Joined: 12/9/2009
Msg: 16
so is a hallucinatory vision behind modern philosphy and science ?
Posted: 1/29/2010 10:48:58 AM
It along with several other forums were placed on "hidden" status due to the amount of trolling going on. You have to go looking for them by going here:

http://forums.plentyoffish.com/datingPosts1151043.aspx

Where you will also find links to Politics and Current events. Alas, it has essentially allowed a lot of trolling/flaming to go on unabated except for the rare bit that gets reported...but out of sight out of mind I guess.
 themadfiddler
Joined: 12/9/2009
Msg: 18
so is a hallucinatory vision behind modern philosphy and science ?
Posted: 1/29/2010 12:48:22 PM
What I said in context was in my post...I will reprint the important part.



This does not preclude that a person of faith may actually have a scientific background. It is very specific...it is stating that a person who says all knowledge derives from God, this making an unprovable and untestable claim when perfectly acceptable and plausible naturalistic claims exist that answer the questions provided, is via the rules of maximum parsimony out of their depth in the argument.


This forum is for discussing issues of science and philosophy. Not religion. There is a pretty clear demarcation line.

If there is a question of faith and a deity involved that is an untestable proposition, you are discussing religion.

That is also where it is different than simply an issue of philosophy. It has nothing to do with being afraid of anything...it DOES have everything to do with keeping off-topic posting material out of a forum where it doesn't belong.

If you were at a conference discussing mathematics and someone kept jumping up from their seat and yelling 9/11 conspiracy theories, it wouldn't be long before you had security remove them from the building.

The analogy is the same.



I have yet to read anything that she wrote that would qualify as proselitization,


Well respectfully, I've read this particular posters output for several years and while in this particular thread they have not, though their current post is off-topic to the forum, their regular posts are in-fact almost always of that nature including violations of just about every rule of forum decorum even for the Religion forum including claims of exclusivity of truth which is about as welcome on the PoF forums as a dose of the clap. And when someone refuses to back up any of their statements with any evidence of any kind, and refuses to follow any common rules of dialectic in a debate but refers to divine fiat for all of their solutions, the typical label for such is religious crackpot.

And here, as in any public debate, they are not welcome...and I think it's disingenuous to say that you'd find such a person any more welcome in a discussion with you if their answer to every normal question was "God-did-it!" It's not sensible, rational, or healthy...and it's not a way to carry on a reasonable, polite discussion in public. And invariably it's why such people get their messages deleted and they get banned. Plain and simple. Nothing to be afraid of, it's just what happens to people that can't function in a public debate. It's equivalent to dropping your pants in a crowded room.
 themadfiddler
Joined: 12/9/2009
Msg: 19
so is a hallucinatory vision behind modern philosphy and science ?
Posted: 1/29/2010 1:21:15 PM
I'm going to ask you a question and I would like a straight answer.

How much room is there for religious discussion on the topic of auto mechanics?



Welcome has nothing to do with it if they truly believe that "God did it"..... Or are they not allowed to voice that deeply held sentiment? I understand that this site originates in Canada, and that the American notion of free speach is slighlty different, and that this is a private site, so whatever the powers that be say, goes


That's it right there in a nutshell.

This site has rules on how to conduct yourself.

You don't do a striptease in your neighbor's living room, you don't discuss matters pertaining to religion in the science and philosophy forum. It's as simple as that. Trying to make every forum into a free for all and crying "free speech" will get you shown the door because it's like crying "fire in a crowded theater"...it's clear abuse of the right. It's not a penultimate right in America either and it never has been...there are limits on Freedom of Speech even in America and there are certain things you may and may not say and certain places you may or may not say them in and you know this as well as I do.

This is the equivalent of a private property on loan or like a public speaking area where failure to abide the rules constitutes disturbing the peace. Now lets move on back to the topic shall we?
 themadfiddler
Joined: 12/9/2009
Msg: 21
so is a hallucinatory vision behind modern philosphy and science ?
Posted: 1/29/2010 1:36:39 PM


None. But, that is not what was happening. What she was doing is expressing her point of view, and then rather clumsily giving a "footnote" for her source. How different is that than if someone were to say that they believed the only way to expand your mind is via hallucenogenic experiences, and that they got that from a guy named Leary?


Evidence and citations. My motto is question everything and everyone...Leary, a scientist, would expect no less. The poster did say "imho all Truth comes from God and can be Trusted" and the ONLY reason they used "imho" is that they had been warned before that doing so offered slight protection on the Religion forum for their exclusivity of truth viewpoint...often they forget to do it.



Would you be so offended when someone gives a source other than the KJV?

In this specific forum, any religious only PoV would be suspect and I do mean any.




However, when practicing auto mechanics, god is invoked more than one may think. Have you ever tried to loosen a rusted bolt, have it break off and you lose a lot of skin as your hand scrapes the engine block...... and the first words out of your mouth are..... "This God Damned piece of $hit".......... Context, my friend, context.



Well said. Context is important
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 24
view profile
History
so is a hallucinatory vision behind modern philosophy and science ?
Posted: 2/6/2010 4:16:15 PM
sorry if I'm off topic.

All knowledge is discovered, non is created or invented.

So, however it arrives, it was always ready to be uncovered, no?
 impohell
Joined: 1/7/2010
Msg: 25
so is a hallucinatory vision behind modern philosphy and science ?
Posted: 2/6/2010 5:08:36 PM
When people stop and stand, taking an moment from their flowing day to articulate a thought, that is a kind of focus of whatever noisy and cluttered experiences as may have led up to it. That lucid proclamation surely comes from dreams, random musings, prejudices, delusions, hopes and the like. Every sort of unruly mental spasm is behind the formal statement of theory.
 BowdenK
Joined: 11/29/2009
Msg: 26
so is a hallucinatory vision behind modern philosphy and science ?
Posted: 2/6/2010 5:27:17 PM
OP

I stubbed my toe once and it prompted me to put my foot up. While this has hardly altered the world perspective, it is a common reaction to a particular event. If you have ever done hallucinogens, then you know that this is an event that leaves some impact, and like all events that impact us in some way, it is considered an effective event within a series of events.

I know people who have done hallucinogens and gone on to become computer technicians. One friend taught himself to build his first computer while he was tripping on LSD. Another friend once forgot how to urinate while on the same drug.

While the hallucinogens clearly have an effect on people, I don't see it as having anymore meaning than breaking a leg and marrying your nurse. It is simply an event in a series of events that may or may not have had an effective impact on the outcome.

I once saw an invisible woman dancing in my curtains when I was on acid, but this is simply an event within a series of events that does not create an outcome by itself. If my theories or actions ever have an impact on the world, some will look at my history of drug use and wonder if maybe I had received some gnostic vision along the way. If not, they will attribute my failure to an early obsession with drug-use and alcohol. In fact, it was a little of neither and a little of both: an event within a series of events.

Not sure if any of that makes sense, but that's what my fingers spit out after reading your OP.
 StrangestBrew
Joined: 5/25/2009
Msg: 35
so is a hallucinatory vision behind modern philosphy and science ?
Posted: 2/19/2010 10:36:46 PM

So the creator of the universe, or the source, or God, or whatever terminology applicable to your upbringing, was kind and thoughtful enough to provide a clue to the many paths for "we of lesser knowledge" through the ingestion of certain medicinal herbs and plants... Growing out of the earth... No pharmacy or prescription needed...

How benevolent... They weren't created for the general populace, or those with rigidly fixed and inflexible notions about the way things really work ...

Just for a select few curious dummies... Like me...


lol, right on...

I don't claim enlightenment, but I can say unequivocally that these "certain...herbs and plants" have given me huge insight into myself and the workings of my own mind... and I wouldn't trade those experiences for anything.
 desertrhino
Joined: 11/30/2007
Msg: 37
view profile
History
so is a hallucinatory vision behind modern philosphy and science ?
Posted: 2/23/2010 4:50:36 PM

Crick was tripping when he came up with the structure of dna

Hmmm, that must be why his only comment on the topic was "Print a word of it and I'll sue."


same with dudes who worked out integrated circuitry

Evidence is often presented when outlandish claims are expected to be accepted as truthful.

Fact? Show me.
 Epicetus
Joined: 2/21/2010
Msg: 43
so is a hallucinatory vision behind modern philosphy and science ?
Posted: 2/27/2010 3:41:04 PM
" don't you think its rather strange that it all rests back onto someones visions in an altered state !!"

it all depends upon what you think living things are

Are they individuals, or are they collectively on super-organism going through its life cycle (on Earth in this case) ?
Most people think "individual"... and therefore dreams must be random static

The latter concept, super-organism = LIFE. A scientific perspective

LIFE has all the information it needs from germination to seeding.... and as is the case with the super-cell called a female, it has all the information re babies; all the necessary information is structured into the genetic logic... dreams can allow release of necessary knowledge LOL, at the right time

Race memory tells us where we are going;... we are driven to flowering... and we have a good idea of what will happen to us all.

Never discount dreams/intuition, it is ancient knowledge bubbling to the surface ensuring that the life cycle of LIFE is completed.

IMO
 GGarbo
Joined: 10/8/2007
Msg: 44
so is a hallucinatory vision behind modern philosphy and science ?
Posted: 2/28/2010 2:22:31 AM

if this is the case , is this an example of an altered state of consciousness having great import into the world of normal waking consciousness ? and in this case becoming the foundation of what we collectiviley call modern philosophy and science today ?

If so, don't you think its rather strange that it all rests back onto someones visions in an altered state !!


Our conscious state is constantly being conditioned by environment. We think all kinds of things, even as a whole society, which are based on the political/social climate you were raised in. It's not easy to think outside that box because in a conscious state, you have so many influences tugging at you.

In some ways, the hallucinatory realisations as you call them could be more aptly directed at our thinking during a conscious state.

E.g. In a conscious state, someone thinks they have to be physically tuff in order to be strong. They live in an environment that supports this conclusion. Their peers think this and their is no pity for the more physically weak. While in a dream, they realize that harmful behavior begets harmful behavior and they are participating in a chain that can't be broken unless they became mentally tuff and non-violent.

The reality is, they are right. However, the society they live in can be guided by completely different (and wrong) assumptions.

So is this individual hallucinating or more awake to reality than most?
 60to70
Joined: 7/28/2008
Msg: 46
so is a hallucinatory vision behind modern philosphy and science ?
Posted: 2/28/2010 10:56:42 PM
Well that would be a good thing indeed if hallucinatory visions are behind philosophy and science. But ...don't think so. Scientists and philosophers are generally in the lane of the straight. They KNOW that imbibing in substances isn't the way to go...or so they think. I tend to agree. But..I also witnessed the results of hallucinatory vision when I was very young and experimental...LSD....was acute and fantastic. You had an instant hit of some kind of marvelous existence that does not exist (usually) when one is free of its influence. I think that LSD is a sacred drug. Obviously you are not thinking straight. You need to think straight when you are a scientist or philosopher.
Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > so is a hallucinatory vision behind modern philosphy and science ?