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 arwen52
Joined: 3/13/2008
Msg: 2
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Health Care Cost IncreasesPage 1 of 13    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13)
Try being self-employed or unemployed. Imagine paying the entire premium yourself and getting hit with those increases. Imagine paying more money for less coverage than people in groups and being denied coverage for any preexisting condition. Imagine changing your plan with the same health insurance company you've had for years and having to reapply as if you were a new applicant, giving them yet another opportunity to deny coverage for preexisting conditions. Imagine being dropped for no reason by a company and having to find insurance all over again with one of the few companies that offer individual policies. Imagine getting sick on 12/28/09 and seeing the doctor on 12/31/09 and worrying your subsequent claims will be denied by the new policy, which begins on 1/1/10, because it will now be for a "preexisting condition" that began a couple of days before your policy changed. Imagine being turned down for insurance because you were merely *tested* for a condition that it turns out you didn't have.

Something like 80% of Americans get health insurance through their place of employment. They do not have to worry about any of this and they only pay a small portion of the actual cost. But you can lose your job at any time and join the ranks of those without employer provided insurance.

I have little patience with people who are covered and oppose health care reform. They've got theirs. They don't care about anyone else. They somehow think those of us who lack are undeserving. I only hope that they themselves get put in that position so they can see what it's like.

Yes, we need health care reform.
 Casper66
Joined: 3/2/2007
Msg: 10
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Posted: 1/31/2010 12:40:50 PM
^^^ great post Jinx. I too am a Canadian and getting sick and tired of being used as an excuse/example why health care would bankrupt the US by increasing taxes. Yes I pay a little more in tax but I don't mind because knowing that I can go and get medical attention when I need it is worth it and gives me peace of mind. In my personal experience I had non-malignant cancer years ago the tests and treatment didn't cost me anything out of pocket and I don't have to worry that I would be rejected in the future because of a pre-existing condition. My Dad have a heart attack 20 years ago requiring various treatments and a hospital stay and recently had a pacemaker put in, cost to us, nothing, my family wasn't bankrupted by this illness. I'm not saying our system would work for the US, but you have a unique opportunity to look at the various health care systems around the world and see what works best and provides the best coverage for US citizens.
 designingwoman
Joined: 9/4/2005
Msg: 12
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Posted: 1/31/2010 1:36:13 PM
California voted in a new single payer program. The Massachusetts program is not a single payer system, instead it uses private insurance.

Private insurance companies do not work as well as Medicare for making sure healthcare is provided.

I think people should be able to buy into Medicare regardless of age, income or health status. This choice being made available can easily be funded through the premiums paid by younger and more affluent enrollees. People can still use private insurance, as a secondary insurance as they do now with Medigap.

Good health to all who read this
 tinkerbellcgy
Joined: 9/17/2005
Msg: 14
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Posted: 1/31/2010 2:27:31 PM

Knowing that I will never be bankrupted as a result of illness or accident...priceless.

Call me crazy, but I like knowing I have $500 less each year compared to my counterparts, but I will never "lose it all" if I get sick, get hurt, or require immediate care. And I will never have to fear checking my mail for "the bill".


What can I say other than thank goodness for Canada's universal health care for all citizens because if we didn't have it, I probably would not be sitting here today typing this post.

I was a healthy female who rarely sought out medical assistance from the time I ventured out as a young adult until approximately 18 months ago. In other words, the taxes I was paying toward universal health care were being used not for my benefit but for the benefit of other Canadians who needed those medical services.

Fast forward about 38 very healthy years until I started to feel somewhat unhealthy and made the trip to my family physician to seek out what was medically wrong with my health. The result was I was diagnosed with cancer and it was discovered at the time to be genetic and not lifestyle induced. [Sorry to take away any thoughts some of you may have had of flaming me.] In any event, after spending 30 days over 3 admissions in hospital, 6 mainstream chemo treatments and 8 maintenance chemo treatments over the ensuing 2 years, it has been calculated that little journey down the path of cancer will have cost upwards of $700,000.00 by the time I finish my last maintenance chemo treatment in February of next year.

Had I have had to pay the cost of that medical sojourn from my own personal resources, it would not have happened. Simply put, there would have been a shortfall of approximately $425,000.00 after I had sold the home that I live in and depleted my savings account. I am a currently unemployed 57 year old who would never have a hope in hell of paying $425,000.00 within my remaining working days. Where would that leave me? Probably suicide.

I am thankful everyday that Canada has universal health care and that I am entitled to access it. Never once did I begrudge paying those taxes toward health care because the thought was always in the back of my mind that one day I might need those health care resources and so I did.
 Casper66
Joined: 3/2/2007
Msg: 16
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Posted: 1/31/2010 3:44:04 PM
I am so very glad that we have universal healthcare here, my Dad is alive today because of the fanastic care he received, it was still difficult because of the loss of his income coming in but we managed. I can't even imagine adding to the stress and worry of a loved one being sick, then trying to figure out how you are going to pay for that care or having to make a decision to not have the treatment because of money. Insurance is great when you don't actually need it, but get sick, become unemployed or have an car accident and you find out very quickly how many loopholes the insurance company will find to not pay out, then drop you, despite paying into the policy for years, it's all about profit not the well being of the policy holder.
 EvilLolli
Joined: 12/7/2008
Msg: 22
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Posted: 1/31/2010 5:30:43 PM
What I have yet to understand, maybe because it is too simple a solution for the political parties, is why not expand the national healthcare system already in place(medicare/medicaid)? Since it is already in place, is used in all states as far as I know, and is established, why not just increase it to include all American citizens? Wouldn't that be the quickest, easiest, cheapest solution to get national health care started? Or is that not the answer because it is TOO simple to be considered? How much of our tax money would have been saved that could be put into the reform if they has just gone with the simplest solution?

I still have medical insurance thru my job, and pay the same premiums, but the coverage I have has been decreased drastically, and the out of pocket costs has skyrocketed. Now instead of co-pays for visits, I have to pay the deductable before I can get the co-pay price. Whether for medical services($500-1 person) or prescriptions($200-1 person). So this will severely limit what I can get medically done for my health. But I guess if I do have an emergency, at least I can be seen because I have insurance, I just won't be able to pay the bill in full for a while.
 tinkerbellcgy
Joined: 9/17/2005
Msg: 23
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Posted: 1/31/2010 5:39:00 PM

As to me ragging on Canada. Registered nurses work within 1 hour of the same there per pay-period as in the US. Their gross pay is within $200. Their net pay differs by over $1,000.

I see you are quoting facts and figures but would you be so kind as to provide either how you came to these figures or cite where these figures are published. I would also ask that you provide comparables i.e. the hourly wage, the gross wage and the net wage each indexed to the cost of living as per the geographically areas for each state/province that you are using in your post. It may very well be that the figures are skewed because you are using apples and oranges in your comparisons.
 Super_Eve
Joined: 10/23/2008
Msg: 24
Health Care Cost Increases
Posted: 1/31/2010 6:48:24 PM
JW: As to me ragging on Canada. Registered nurses work within 1 hour of the same there per pay-period as in the US. Their gross pay is within $200. Their net pay differs by over $1,000.
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Tinkerbell: I see you are quoting facts and figures but would you be so kind as to provide either how you came to these figures or cite where these figures are published. I would also ask that you provide comparables i.e. the hourly wage, the gross wage and the net wage each indexed to the cost of living as per the geographically areas for each state/province that you are using in your post.


Ha ha, Tinkerbell, you beat me to it! I was going to post, "You are making a claim. Now cite your sources".

I think that if the States had a free healthcare system, like our northern neighbors, it would be hard to take ill advantage of it.

Just sayin'...
 EvilLolli
Joined: 12/7/2008
Msg: 26
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Posted: 1/31/2010 8:56:06 PM
Expanding medicare/medicaid would not be the final step, people could still choose to get additional insurance thru employers/etc., but to get the ball rolling. By giving BASIC healthcare to everyone, and allowing them to choose extra options at their own expense, it would be a start(wasn't that kind of the idea behind the medicare reform recently?). This would be like *gasp* insurance companies being more willing to cover birth control, instead of just covering pregnancy/child healthcare. Basically a baby-step approach. Great leaps sound good, but you have to crawl before you walk.

As for increase in costs/taxes? My taxes and health care costs have already increased, but my pay hasn't. Maybe if there was a basic level of care available, and extended coverage was optional, there would be more competition in the coprorate insurance companies for your business? Again, maybe too simple a view of things. But golly gee, I like simple answers sometimes. Or at least ones that make sense.
 barbee1970
Joined: 12/29/2008
Msg: 27
Health Care Cost Increases
Posted: 1/31/2010 10:12:03 PM
My deductible went up now to $500-1000. ER care is now $100 cause of people on the job using it for non-emergencies (common cold is NOT an emergency people).

People using ER for non emergencies are delaying people who really need it. There has to be rooms available in triage for emergencies
 barbee1970
Joined: 12/29/2008
Msg: 28
Health Care Cost Increases
Posted: 1/31/2010 10:18:52 PM
As far as government programs they are all abused. People are given a handout and some just keep having babies for more benefits.

How about job training and try to do more to get people off of welfare? Offer affordable daycare. We can lead the horse to water but can't make them drink.
 Super_Eve
Joined: 10/23/2008
Msg: 29
Health Care Cost Increases
Posted: 1/31/2010 11:20:42 PM
ETA: FOUND! Note how the compulsory deductions are killer! Canadian nurses gross about the same, but after their "compulsory deductions" are nowhere near as well-payed.

So yeah, I will take the extra $1,000 per month. I am pretty sure I can get a nice insurance package for that and have some change left over for a coke or two, even with our messed-up healthcare system (which DOES need to be improved, I agree, just not with HR3200).

http://www.worldsalaries.org/professionalnurse.shtml


Let me just first start out by saying, how refreshing it is, to ask someone to cite their sources, and they actually do.

So I ran the numbers...

Here is what I came up with:

According to the link you posted, US nurses make $4,o61 gross income a month, while Canadian nurses make $3,833 gross income a month. There is a difference, of $229. The compulsory tax, for the US is 22%, while for the Canadians it is 30%, leaving a difference of 7%. So the US nurses are paying $893.42 dollars a month in taxes, while the Canadians are paying $1,149.90, a difference of $256. US nurses work an average of 33 hours a week, while Canadian nurses work 31.7. So by these numbers, the US nurses are netting $3,168, which the cite stated, but the Canadians are netting $2,684, a difference of $484, but the cite says that Canadians are netting $2,217, leaving a difference of $971.

I checked the cite's, since the math did not add up. I found a conversion table that as of 2/1/2010, the conversion from US dollars to Canadian is 0.93470.

Nowhere could I find the discrepancy, in the stated net income. It is a $467, and it is very misleading. I don't live in Canada (yet), so I am wondering if there is an additional amount taken out from a Canadian's income, whether voluntary or involuntary, that is not reflected in the cite's information, other than income tax, municipal tax, provincial/state income tax, social security (pension plan, medicare), compulsory additional insurance, etc.

Otherwise, the cite is misleading, at best.

Just wonderin'...

If anybody knows, please inform me...maybe, my math is off...

Because by the numbers I ran, with a monthly difference of $484, and free healthcare, is a better deal than premiums, deductibles, and co-pays, Canadians still seem like they are getting the better end of the deal. I will provide a quote tomorrow, how much the average monthly cost of healthcare is, for a single person, with no kids.

The real culprits in my mind, are the privateers of drug companies, hospitals and doctors. I used to work for chiropractic clinic, where cash patients were charged $40, while medicare $78, and private insurances were being billed $118. This sh1t is happening all of the time. It is why the cost of healthcare has risen so drastically. The medical field has succumbed to profiteerism, at the expense of their patients. I used to work in a hospital too, and I am willing to bet, that bag of saline did not cost the $44, that showed up on my late husband's medical bill.

I do think we should have free healthcare. But I think that the root of the problem needs to be addressed first: unstandardized rising costs of medical treatment.

Just my two cents.

Edit post: Great point, Bella, Cebrhocabi...
 Casper66
Joined: 3/2/2007
Msg: 30
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Posted: 2/1/2010 4:18:11 AM
I work in healthcare, so approximately 16% of my by-weekly paycheck goes to taxes, then 4-5% for unemployment insurance and about 2% for Canadian pension plan. The taxes are used for public services and healthcare and Revenue Canada has the percentages for each income tax bracket level, what makes it expensive to live in Canada is the goods and services tax(GST/PST) that applies to most things I purchase, this is not related to healthcare costs, so yes we pay higher taxes but it is not just related to healthcare.
 Super_Eve
Joined: 10/23/2008
Msg: 40
Health Care Cost Increases
Posted: 2/1/2010 4:18:33 PM
Thank you QuietJohn, for providing of the stats, for the gross domestic product, of the time (2005) that the article was written, referenced by JW.

But...I have one question...

One question would be if HR3200 it has any less pork than the current system.


If it has less pork, than what kind of bacon will be provided? I mean really. If I can't bring home the bacon, oh, what will I have to offer?

Because Dr's are now scared to NOT do all these tests because of sue-happy patients, as well as all the regulatory agencies, as well as insurance requiring certain tests before paying for certain proceedures. The public has themselves, in part, to thank for all of this.


I agree with thisin part, because there is some validity here. People have been sue happy in the past...some have had valid claims, due to blatant hospital neglect of their loved ones, and some just want to use the death or incapacitation of their loved one, in order to make a buck.

But the profit marginal is much greater than the care provided, one cannot argue that. And that is part of the problem. Healthcare has become, and for quite some time, a mechanism for profit...


Really, I do, but you don't understand the system, so some of what is being said is going in one ear and out the other. Nothing can be done about that unless you educate yourself from an inside point of view. That sounds snotty, and I'm sorry, but it's about as logical as me telling a master chef how to season something.


One only needs to exam empirical evidence, or have a direct experience, with our healthcare system, in order to offer an opinion...

the system we are talking about is not a health care system, it is an insurance system, a legal system, not a health care system, some how they became intertwined.
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The two became intertwined because patients began suing, insurance company's protested.


The two became intwined, when healthcare was privatized, and profit became the goal, rather than medical treatment provided...

However, people like me do not "feed the monster". I


I wonder...for every case that is provided for patient fraudulence, can the same be said for hospital neglect, and medical overcharging, (like billing medicare, and private insurance companies for the same procedure, and getting paid by both)?



Russia is owed 108 billion.

Just how ironic is it when the bastion of world capitalism owes those godless Commies (and former godless Commies) almost a trillion US dollars, anyway ?

Just the inheritance tax alone could quickly pay off that rising " Commie debt load" , so maybe that would be a far better name for it than a "death tax'. And who better to pay it off than those capitalists who prove their theory is a failure each and every day ?


Ha ha, off topic, for an off topic thread...

But I wonder...why is this not being addressed?

Taxing the very rich, instead of allowing stupendous tax breaks, that are disproportionate in comparison, to the middle income levels, and the lower income levels? Why are things like this, not being addressed? Has anybody heard of feudalism, or the economics behind it?
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 41
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Posted: 2/1/2010 5:01:59 PM
It's true. Private healthcare is a lot more expensive.

The average life expectancy in the UK is almost 1 year more than in the US, by the United Nations estimates and by the CIA estimates.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy

But it was mentioned in the past few months that British people only spend about 8.5% on their healthcare, while Americans spend about 15%. We spend half what you spend, and yet we live longer by almost a year.

And, before you ask, we have comparative rates of obesity and smoking.
 Twilightslove
Joined: 12/9/2008
Msg: 42
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Posted: 2/1/2010 6:05:25 PM
jwg86


WIC is abused. Yes, there is an income criteria, and I have even seen them count an unborn child as part of the family to get away with stretching that criteria. I don't know all about WIC, but I spent a day learning about it first-hand, and I was not impressed with where tax money is going in the least, with regards to it. If I see all this crap in just ONE DAY dealing with WIC, imagine what goes on over a week, a month, a year...


They include the unborn child to make sure that the pregnant mother gets adequate dairy, grains, legumes, etc. so that the baby has a better opportunity to develop properly. I don't understand why that would bother you. These young mothers are also expected to attend classes on good nutrition to continue receiving WIC. As someone going into the medical field I should think that you would want those women, infants, and children to be healthy especially as they are not always able to get medicaid and/or other insurance once the baby is born.
 tinkerbellcgy
Joined: 9/17/2005
Msg: 45
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Posted: 2/1/2010 6:52:49 PM

How about a current pay scale for Canada and USA?

I am assuming when you say "pay scale" in relation to your post you are actually meaning the "fee schedule" that Canadian doctors use in order to bill their respective provincial health service providers. Each province is governed by its own health service provider and covered services can and do vary from province to province. I provide you with the link to the fee schedule for the physician's fee schedule that is currently in effect for the province that I reside in.

http://www.health.alberta.ca/professionals/SOMB.html

In my province, physicans are prohibited from imposing "extra billing" meaning that they are not permitted to charge the patient for any fees above and beyond the fee prescribed for a covered procedure as set out in the fee schedule nor are there "co-pays" or "deductibles". That is not to say that a physician cannot request payment for a procedure that is not covered by Alberta Health Services and in situations such as that, patients are notifed prior to a procedure being performed that it is not covered under the fee schedule and the patient is responsible for that charge. Example of such procedures might be a physical examination that is required prior to obtaining an aviation license or the completion of a medical report for disability insurance.
 Twilightslove
Joined: 12/9/2008
Msg: 46
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Posted: 2/1/2010 7:03:43 PM
jwg86 says,

...and that's just how putting someone who made too much money to be on WIC, on WIC, was rationalized. It looks good on paper, so it gets pushed through. Lots of stuff looks good on paper, in reality, it's a massive failure.


I believe that they wave the income level if the mother has had prior complications with her babies such as pre-term, low birth weight, etc. In Texas we have a high rate of infant mortality so they probably do try to make things look good through the use of WIC and add as many pregnant moms as possible.

As far as the increase in the cost of health care and health insurance goes there is a lot of mismanagement in all business endeavors that leads to higher costs. I've been hearing a lot about a health care insurance companies business practices lately that just make me shake my head at the foolishness of their inept practices.
 tinkerbellcgy
Joined: 9/17/2005
Msg: 47
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Posted: 2/1/2010 7:06:53 PM
If I could just interject here, rather that flame, bash, belittle and point fingers at each other, would it be possible to try to stick to the topic of this thread and leave any personal agendas behind the scenes where they rightfully belong? Now, if it is possible, let's please continue on with the discussion in a respectful manner.
 SingleGuy4912
Joined: 7/25/2006
Msg: 48
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Posted: 2/1/2010 7:23:06 PM

So what happens when these business owners are taxed? It's a common sense answer, but there are some who would have you to believe that when the rich and or business owners are taxed, they somehow spend more money!

Theoretically, that's what should happen. Business expenses reduce the amount of taxable income. Thus, if a business is not spending enough to reduce their tax liability, they deserve the extra tax.
 daynadaze
Joined: 2/11/2008
Msg: 49
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Posted: 2/1/2010 7:36:57 PM
Some years ago my doctor told me I needed a hysterectomy. Well my insurance wasn't about to just let that go, I had to spend 3 years getting test after test after expensive & evasive tests....to be told I needed a hysterectomy. The biggest problem we have with our health care system is the damn insurance companies who get to tell you what you need instead of your own doctor.
 Super_Eve
Joined: 10/23/2008
Msg: 50
Health Care Cost Increases
Posted: 2/1/2010 7:39:28 PM
@ Quietjohn

When I said this, I meant the health care system.

#3: REIT - Healthcare facilites, 24.6%
#7: Drug Manufacturers Major, 16.5%
#11: REIT - Residential, 13.8
#14: Drug Delivery, 13.5%
#24: Home In formation Services, 9.3%

But here is your stance...

#77 Hospitals, 3.6%
#86 Health Care Plans 3.3

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_otfwl2zc6Qc/SoMLoWBKM4I/AAAAAAAAK4g/wKdZyg5LxQ0/s1600-h/profits.bmp

And then you say this:


Dollar Bill McQuire of United health was paid $1.7 BILLION dollars.
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Not bad for a company making about $4 billion per year profit.


Isn't the CEO's earnings, considered outside the profit margin? I mean, he does have to get paid, right? That isn't considered a profit...right?

@ Gent


I fell off my chair reading the comment that some think taxing the rich can fuel economic growth!


I hope, for your condensation...you fell on your butt, in water. (Let me, break it down for you...wordplay, here.)


The ludicrous assertion that our Government can simply TAX it's way out of deficits, and/or fund another monstrous gov't program is fraught with problems.


You are right. It is ludicrous. It is ludicrous, to think, that people of a certain income, can be be held responsible, and accountable, for tax evasion. Moving to another country, or opening another bank account in another country, should simply be condoned, because there are few laws legislating it. I'm sorry, but who is responsible for picking up this evasion? Duh. The people who don't do it.

But then, I am an anarchist...what the heck, do I know...


When people talk about placing a tax on the rich, I know I'm dealing with someone who does not understand how capital is produced in a free market economy, or that thousands of small business owners help fuel our economy.


Go ahead, with that assumption...


So what happens when these business owners are taxed?


This argument is flawed. There is a vast difference between small business owners, and CEO's of conglomerates...but check my sources...and have a beer on me.


It's a common sense answer, but there are some who would have you to believe that when the rich and/or business owners are taxed, they somehow spend more money!


You know...I explored this topic. I did, with all of its angles. Trying to understand the justification, for capitalism. I really did. I walked away, with the knowing, that greed is against sustainability. Oh! Small business owners, or even larger business owners? See above.


Sorry, but in the real world unless businesses increase revenue/capital they will not spend more in hiring new employees, product development, research, marketing, etc. A TAX is a reduction in revenue. How can anyone believe reducing a businesses bottom line can PRODUCE growth is beyond me.


Please, issue the pay scale, from CEO's, to the workers employed...and please, provide a moral justification, for the discrepancy...


When politicians talk about taxing the RICH, does anyone know they are talking about taxing the backbone of business in America?


Really? The RICH, are the backbone of business in the States? Silly me, I thought it was the labour of the work, that provided the output, for the business, to acquire capital...


I'll make this as simple as I can.


Yep. Break it down, in more simplified dialogue, cuz i just ain't gettin it...


Because every product and/or service is harvested, produced, distributed and stocked via Capital. Those bottles of Pepsi do not magically appear on Wal-Marts shelf top, until money is moved to purchase the bottles, the caramel coloring, the carbonated water, sugar, and a number of other ingredients from dozens of farmers, wholesale distributors, manufacturers, ect.


True.


ALL of which incur COST, either on production, machinery, or raw product. Therefore any TAX on Pepsi is a TAX on those who produce Pepsi, which equates to a TAX on those who buy Pepsi.


Thank you, unstandardized capitalism.


In essence you've only taxed Capital - Or the money inside your wallet used to buy your bottle of Pepsi.


Now, this actually makes sense...


The only way to reduce the deficit is to REDUCE the freaking monstrous organization that produces it...THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.


Oddly, I agree with you, ideologically.


Now about Healthcare reform. I have but one question - what would happen if no type of health care reform took place?

The same thing that happened to the supposedly millions of uninsured when Mrs Clinton sought to bring in this crap.

ABSOLUTELY NOTHING


The logic of this, is correct...but are we not, discussing, the possibilities of a health reformation, taking place?
 readyfornow
Joined: 5/15/2009
Msg: 53
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Posted: 2/2/2010 11:23:41 AM
BS like this makes me glad I have TRICARE and the VA.
 Super_Eve
Joined: 10/23/2008
Msg: 54
Health Care Cost Increases
Posted: 2/2/2010 11:36:23 AM
@ Gent

Okay. I admittedly flamed a bit. Let us keep this discussion civil, shall we?


The subject of tax evasion has clearly nothing to do with my post or the issue of this thread, so I'm somewhat miffed why someone tried to include such nonsense.


Uhm...I was responding to this...


Simply taxing the rich is not enough to fund any reform, especially since they can simply move to another country and take their money with them. (Which many do every year)


Let us just call it, what it is. Tax evasion. If you are leaving a country, in order to avoid paying taxes, that's tax evasion. Which is what you implied. Which is what I responded to.


How you choose to spend the money you earned is your business, and it goes without saying it's everyone else's prerogative how they choose to spend THEIR money.


I absolutely agree. Which is why I offered you a beer. The industry with the most profit margin, is beverages and brewers. So I offer no judgement, as to how people choose to spend their money...


Why should I allow the powers that be to steal 40 to 50% of my earnings when I die?


Okay. By your own logic, the government is stealing from you now...can't argue with it.


I'm already paying 28%, which is more than enough, but there are some people who believe people who work for a living should pay more to support those who don't.


This is where we differ. I think healthcare should be a right, not a privilege. To view it such, (a privilege), reeks of classism, and devaluement. Since I believe in inherent human value, I can see where this value system my clash with others...


I'll leave you and your cohorts to continue supporting every Tom, D i c k and Harry with more welfare-like programs.


We are not talking about welfare, we are talking about basic healthcare.


Do you know these thieves under the pretext of combating any financial crisis, have been conducting hearings on proposals to confiscate private retirement pensions?


Yes, I did. But not to pay for universal healthcare.


Where doers this mentality come from? Oh wait a minute, I know where it comes from, from people like the quote above who think the money you earn should be redistributed.


You know what kills me? Is that people, who vehemently oppose, redistribution of wealth, would stand to have more wealth, after such redistribution?


No one is beholden/obligated to the freaking government for a lifetime.


Ha ha, I love closet anarchists! It is good that you are so riled up!


It's your choice and FREEDOM to live anywhere you damn well please, and enjoy the trappings of the income YOU earned.


Absolutely.

But I still don't agree, with the exceedingly wealthy, opening Swiss bank accounts, or moving to another country, while still profiting from this one, in order to avoid paying taxes.


Good grief this crap makes me sick to my stomach.


As it should.

I think that it is good, that discussions like this are taking place, since it tends to get more people pro-active...
 NurbyDriver
Joined: 7/30/2007
Msg: 56
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Health Care Cost Increases
Posted: 2/2/2010 11:53:28 AM
Kinda makes you say....Hmmmmmmmm

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=2510700
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