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 yna6
Joined: 1/21/2007
Msg: 3
The tragedyPage 1 of 2    (1, 2)
Just more reason to get into the space program heavily right now rather than attempting to wait! Far more resources to parcel out there than here!
 ~DREAMS~
Joined: 1/8/2007
Msg: 4
The tragedy
Posted: 2/16/2010 9:04:29 AM
I fail to understand something....

people are always worried about the natural resources being depleted...

Where exactly are they going to? It is not like they are leaving this planet for the most part (while yes some are with the space programs)

Almost all of the metals are reusuable... as well as most other things.

Things can't be depleted if they are not leaving the planet. They are simply changing form is all
 Strings6
Joined: 7/14/2007
Msg: 6
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Posted: 2/16/2010 5:27:20 PM
Another thread where people who consume the earth's resources come to complain about other people consuming the earth's resources
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 10
The tragedy
Posted: 2/20/2010 12:57:21 AM

we'll send a Lear jet so you can come to Zurich and help puzzle out where all the oil is going.

Lear Jets are too small...Is there no end to the sacrifices we have to make to save the planet?
 Strings6
Joined: 7/14/2007
Msg: 11
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Posted: 2/20/2010 4:19:54 AM
Exogenist,i hope i'm long dead and gone before people who think like you do are in control.
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 12
The tragedy
Posted: 2/20/2010 5:28:12 AM
If people like exo were in control we'd have people respecting the unborn generations of other people, fair use of resources, and a sustainable lifestyle...This is a bad thing?
 wvwaterfall
Joined: 1/17/2007
Msg: 13
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Posted: 2/20/2010 6:57:03 AM

People qualified to make suggestions:


This logic totally escapes me. So if 'we' (including me) have a problem, and all of us are part of that problem, there can be no discussion about solutions if none of us are so blameless that we don't at all contribute to the problem? If that were the case no war would ever end if both sides fired shots in that war.

Some of us consume less than others. All of us consume. The solution is not a matter of black and white. It's a matter of contributing more and detracting less, hopefully to the point that someday 'we' would be a net benefit to the only planet we have to call home. Discussion about how best to achieve that goal not only can but MUST include all consumers, ie all of us.

Dave
 xlr8ingmargo
Joined: 7/28/2009
Msg: 14
The tragedy
Posted: 2/20/2010 8:17:04 AM
Coming from a chick good men like Exo and Dukky are exactly the kind of men I'd like to see in control~ They have an understanding of the world around us today, and logical well planned solutions that actually may just help.

even in pink spandex (I just couldn't resist sweetness)
 xlr8ingmargo
Joined: 7/28/2009
Msg: 16
The tragedy
Posted: 2/20/2010 1:37:31 PM
Its because guys like that would know what to do with girls like me...
How can they think of whats out of the box when they cant even see whats in it first?
 Island home
Joined: 7/5/2009
Msg: 17
The tragedy
Posted: 2/20/2010 3:31:45 PM
^^ some times it helps to just work by feel

edit and I feel this is a good thread :-)
 xlr8ingmargo
Joined: 7/28/2009
Msg: 18
The tragedy
Posted: 2/20/2010 5:01:40 PM
Meow meow said the Margo tiger...
I need my habitat preserved for future escapades.
It is up to us all to protect Mother Earth the best we can, by making smarter choices everyday because of the STUPIDITY of others. It's always been a passion of mine.
Meow meow time to play...
 ~DREAMS~
Joined: 1/8/2007
Msg: 19
The tragedy
Posted: 2/20/2010 6:13:53 PM

To reiterate, we're just piling our house full of sh*t.


SHHHH you think those landfills are bad? Those are just our reserve resource banks.... just like a dog burries a bone we here in the US have all the other countries out collecting all the raw materials from around the world and delivering them to us....(in the form of consumer goods) We just get the pleasure of using them for awhile before we tuck them in our land fill storage banks for latter use once the biodegradable stuff is done composting we dig them back up when we run low on resources and seperate them using big shredders for our own use to sell them back to them in the form of goods WE make

SEE?

We all just keep passing resources back and forth.... it is usually the ones that don't understand commerse and/or resource dispertion on a global scale that are blind to the fact. You can't believe everything you read from a person trying to get you to part with your hard earned dollars to support a cause they technically don't know much about because they are not invited into the BIGGER circles of governance around the globe due to being closed minded and always having to be right even when many times they are not even close to getting things correct.... Does not stop them from writing false propaganda though....

Look you want to see it? Tag a group of resources with a harmless radioactive isotope and then track its movements around this globe over a period of 10 years.... That will give you much more accurate data than someone promoting a political agenda instead of a commerse agenda....

Now wood/paper/livestock that is a COMPLETELY different set of usage. That is why people like me do not see the logic to consum millions of pages of paper to warn people that the paper usage is destroying tree's......... Even recycled paper is not technically recycled paper it is still mostly new pulp
 ~DREAMS~
Joined: 1/8/2007
Msg: 21
The tragedy
Posted: 2/20/2010 10:14:32 PM

more than a thousand scientists...SCIENTISTS (I hear they're supposed to know their stuff)!


havent been watching the news lately i take it.... many of these scientists have their cards crubling down around them lately due to fudging numbers. More coming REAL soon too....

I even hear there was a group of lawyers that were looking into trying to use some of the older laws against some of the ones in this nation having to do with trying to incite panics and similar ones when their work has started to be proven that they were making up some of their numbers calling them statistics when they were nothing more than that persons OPINION....

I seem to remember one of them even in a report issued was being investigated for CAUSING the very same catastrophy to nature they were trying to blame a company for as a way to draw attention to it but i am not sure what ever ended up with that one... and NO I don't site sources because i don't participate in that pat on the ass game of science....

BAH I heard through the grape vine they are about to lose many of their grants and funding anyways so they will have to rely on getting their own just like everyone else instead of expecting everyone else to put up with their crap just so they can keep their grants.

Expand your circle dude.
 Super_Eve
Joined: 10/23/2008
Msg: 22
The tragedy
Posted: 2/20/2010 11:07:56 PM
Awesome thread, Exogenist...


Those are just our reserve resource banks.... just like a dog burries a bone we here in the US have all the other countries out collecting all the raw materials from around the world and delivering them to us....(in the form of consumer goods)


So true...


We just get the pleasure of using them for awhile before we tuck them in our land fill storage banks for latter use once the biodegradable stuff is done composting we dig them back up when we run low on resources and seperate them using big shredders for our own use to sell them back to them in the form of goods WE make


Are you talking about compost? It has a high level of entropy, due to its organic nature, while plastics have a low level, with its technological, recyclable nature.

I am confused as to where the dopamine uptake, is relevant to all of this?


SEE?


Yes...I do...


We all just keep passing resources back and forth.... it is usually the ones that don't understand commerse and/or resource dispertion on a global scale that are blind to the fact.


You are correct...how ironic, given your posting...


Look you want to see it? Tag a group of resources with a harmless radioactive isotope and then track its movements around this globe over a period of 10 years.... That will give you much more accurate data than someone promoting a political agenda instead of a commerse agenda...


I will show you mine, if you show me yours...


That is why people like me do not see the logic to consum millions of pages of paper to warn people that the paper usage is destroying tree's....


And you made sense here...
 ~DREAMS~
Joined: 1/8/2007
Msg: 24
The tragedy
Posted: 2/21/2010 4:45:10 AM

I'm more on about the utilization of resources and the energy crisis propaganda. My opinion is that the system isn't streamlined enough and further down the line it could be a problem for our kids.


Well at the moment they would be extracted anyways so is it really a bad thing that they are making their way to the US in the form of consumer goods? More inovated recycling technics are being developed all the time.... Many just hit brick walls

2012 is not that far away posturing and efficient team formations are already well under way.
 wvwaterfall
Joined: 1/17/2007
Msg: 25
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Posted: 2/21/2010 8:39:53 AM
Exo, I generally agree with your thought process. Regardless of one's position on global warming, the whole resource extraction and human impact on the planet issue makes clear that we need to pay serious attention to cleaning up our act, and quickly.

I still can't let pass, though, the misperception that somehow recent revelations minimize the climate change issue. I grant that it's become quite difficult for an impartial observer to sift through all the distortions and get an accurate assessment of all the complex intricacies relating to climate change, but must emphasize that in recent months the distorting has been heavily weighted to the denialist side.

The only new information that in any way lessens concern about a warming planet is that an obscure reference buried deep in the thousands of pages of the last IPCC report erroneously implied that all Himalayan glaciers might disappear by 2035. That was a mistake, has been identified, and won't be repeated.

But icepacks are still retreating all over the world. In fact the rate of that recession in the past two decades has exceeded predictions. The science supporting the human role in a warming planet is well established, even if we don't know exactly what will happen when because frankly, we're dealing with a situation the planet has never faced before. Yes, the climate has always changed, but never before has it seen this rapid of a change in atmospheric and land use conditions.

Whether the percentage of the Netherlands below sea level has been expressed accurately or whether a few ticked off scientists vented in emails they presumed to be private does not in any way negate decades of careful and replicated science that make clear to policy makers that we need include human impact on the climate in future policy decisions, just as you rightly assert that we need include resource depletion impacts in those same policy discussions.

Pretty much all the steps needed to minimize our climate impacts can also be justified from the multiple additional benefits to be gained, so perhaps you're right to set aside the public firestorm over climate change and support those steps through less controversial logic.

I just wish we all had a better understanding of how science is done and how to tell sound science from junk so we could make all our decisions from a more rational foundation, and can't help but correct misrepresentations when I see them.

Dave
 Strings6
Joined: 7/14/2007
Msg: 27
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Posted: 2/21/2010 10:08:46 AM
Exogenist,it's quite simple...i do not carry the weight of the world on my shoulders and concern myself with the polar ice caps and the rain forest or whether there is life on Mars...or flatter myself by thinking that i have the answers to anything other than my own personal struggle within myself to do what is right,living my life and governing myself is a full time occupation.

I see people do and say things that i feel are wrong daily but it is not my place to govern them,control them or seek to do so via some third party such as government on the premise that it will do anything to solve anything.I respect my environment in ways that are both available and practical to me,i use resources as i need them and waste little...as a human being i am entitled to do so.

I live in a part of the world that provides more resources than that which is provided to other people in other parts of the world,i am too busy being thankful and grateful for that to engage in either a desire to force others to live in a way other than they wish or that their money can provide...or to be envious because i cannot live as they do.

I make a modest living and live a modest lifestyle and was brought up by my grandmother who raised five children during the depression years...she taught me that abundance is a blessing to be thankful for and waste a sin to be repented of...by American standards i do not live in abundance but by standards in other parts of the world i live in great abundance and it is in that light that i choose to see my circumstances....i thank God i live in America but i beleive her end as i know it is approaching...when or how i don't know ...but i am aware of certain attitudes and philosophies that will certainly hasten it....and i do hope to be long dead or even recently deceased before that time comes.

I guess what i'm saying is that i feel blessed and am humbled by it and will not complain or protest...perhaps you do not feel that way.
 prezmic
Joined: 6/17/2008
Msg: 28
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Posted: 2/21/2010 12:03:34 PM

What I've noticed is that there is sound science and there is junk science in this global warming and earth's recources debate, but for the most part the junk science gets cast aside because it doesn't fly empirically.


The first part of this statement is true. The second part is entirely false. Junk science SHOULD be tossed aside, but unfortunately, politicians and big business cherry pick what they want from the mess. Ram it down our throats long enough, and people start to believe what they are told.

The problem is not that we are livng, evolving, and utilizing the resources of the planet - the real tragedy is that some want to regulate, deny, and tax everyone. WIll this really save the planet? Or will it jeopardize our quality of life, enslave us, and make someone very rich?
 prezmic
Joined: 6/17/2008
Msg: 31
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Posted: 2/21/2010 1:20:26 PM
I agree. Saving the planet is an arrogant statement. Mother nature will prevail.

You said in an earlier post

i think what we need to do is devise some kind of legislation that protects resources for the unborn next generation .. at the moment these unborn people have no rights what so ever it seems , but we know that they are definatly coming and very soon, and what are they going to inherit a world which seems unsustainable and depleted of natural resources and over populated and polluted .


Legislation won't work. Why deny ourselves for the protection of some unknown entity. People will just have to evolve and live off of what is left. Maybe someone can come up with a good recipe for dirt.
 ~DREAMS~
Joined: 1/8/2007
Msg: 32
The tragedy
Posted: 2/21/2010 2:33:11 PM

The problem is not that we are livng, evolving, and utilizing the resources of the planet - the real tragedy is that some want to regulate, deny, and tax everyone. WIll this really save the planet? Or will it jeopardize our quality of life, enslave us, and make someone very rich?


When you get right down to it that explanation is not very far off the mark. here is another way to look at it.

If you have one company that has decided it knows best and better than everyone else it will in essence TRY to take away from another company to give it to the company THEY decide it should go to.

Essentially that is what we have with the current administration of this company AKA USA Inc. LMAO

We use the IRS to strong are and extort to pick pocket out of the pokets of all the various companies and people residing and operating within it and then develope programs/grants/many other monitary dispirsements to give that extorted money to the companies the US government deems worthy of recieving it.

That locks out "x" amount of other companies that might have better ideas.

I will use a cool squirrl analogy... If there are only "x" amount of nuts falling off the trees and "y" number of squirrls run around grabbing up all those nuts. the majority of the nuts going to a specific group of squirrls that call themselves "a1" and have decided that their friends are the only ones that deserve to get a portion of the collected "x" amount of nuts that means there would not be as many nuts for the "n" groups of squirrls.

x= total amount of nuts
y= Total amount of squirrls
a1= big government
"n"= the rest of squirrls aka the rest of the companies in this contry

That is what is called a closed market regardless how certain politicians choose to spin it with semantics. They are basically locking out the competitive spirit of this great nation which ALWAYS has proven to be a catalyst for progression forward on anything in the development circles.

So they tax one person just so they can give it to someone else that THEY deem worthy of having it. I would see that as a damn insult. like them saying... naw you don't deserve a chance and we as big government has no faith in your abilities to perform so therefore we will take you chance away and give it to someone WE deem is worthy of having a chance.

That to me is basically what our current administration takes as a stance on many issues. they want control over even our progress in technology advancements instead of allowing the market and free enterprize to decide for itself.

It is just another form of control that DOES NOT describe any definition of a free society i have ever looked at.

Sounds more like a dictatorship to me but instead of one person dictating it is just a whole group of people dictating. To me that does not seem to make it any different and to be honest seems a bit tyranical in nature.

Role of government shoudl NEVER be used as a control but rather simply a protection and shelter role. When we as a government take the stance of wanting to decide who gets what in life that is no longer protecting anyone. That is in fact placing limitations on the many aka the "n" squirrls out there in the country

Our government needs to LITERALLY.... Get their hands off, take a step back, look down from above simply to maintain order and settle disputes and let the chips fall where they may. let the people of this country SHOW that we know best how to live our own lives and do not need a government to decide for us who should have a chance at success and who should not have a chance... That is not what this country was founded upon.

The majority of people in this country would do the right thing in life so where you have issues is when you shut them out and instead give the chances to the select few. We are a nation of professional people that have brains and inginuity that rivils many other nations in this world. many though have their hands tied by the corrupt, good ole boy, one hand washes the other form of governance that we now have for a system it seems.

I could write more but will stop there...

I hope that made sense...

In a nut shell Americans have a way of handling things in life that just seems to work and flow better when it is left to it OWN choices without big government trying to basically take market share away from the people that make up the very country. The very people our government is suppose to protect us from is now what they have turned into.

Just my opinions.
 ~DREAMS~
Joined: 1/8/2007
Msg: 34
The tragedy
Posted: 2/21/2010 8:36:26 PM
look at it this way... The davids of this country keep slaying goliath so that all the rest of the davids IE smaller companies can get their FAIR share of the market share and the damn government that is suppose to be working with us keeps running in with the rececitation paddles in hand starting goliths heart back beating again......


Buttom line.... Let the fvckers fail. We as a resilient nation WILL survive and the rest of the little guys can and WILL step up and fill the huge gapping hole in the ecconamy.

It will sting at first but dammit the long term benefits to the many are quite simply.... better for EVERYONE

just my opinions
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 37
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Posted: 2/28/2010 7:58:44 AM
“Earth provides enough to satisfy every man’s need, but not every man’s greed.”—Gandhi

Nice thread and some good observations. But we are all coming at it from the perspective of people in the most consumptive and wasteful culture in the history of humanity. From that perspective it is too easy to assume that any sort of change in the way we live and do things amounts to a major sacrifice, a loss of freedom, or a threat to the American Weigh.

It's ironic that our culture is also the most vulnerable to extreme disruption and collapse when/if the chit hits the fan and the system breaks down from international conflict or a sun storm. Those who live the lightest on the planet, reliant on local self-sufficiency and not reliant on fossil fuels for everything, will have a much greater chance for survival and stability.

A First Nations' proverb notes that we are only borrowing the Earth from the next generations and another admonishes people to base their decisions today on what effect it will have on the next 7 generations. This wisdom has been replaced with MEism...How will it affect ME. The Cousteau Society came up with a Bill of Rights for Future Generations.
http://www.eurocbc.org/page721.html
Article 1. Future generations have a right to an uncontaminated and undamaged Earth and to its enjoyment as the ground of human history, of culture, and of the social bonds that make each generation and individual a member of one human family.

Article 2. Each generation, sharing in the estate and heritage of the Earth, has a duty as trustee for future generations to prevent irreversible and irreparable harm to life on Earth and to human freedom and dignity.

Article 3. It is, therefore, the paramount responsibility of each generation to maintain a constantly vigilant and prudential assessment of technological disturbances and modifications adversely affecting life on Earth, the balance of nature, and the evolution of mankind in order to protect the rights of future generations.

Article 4. All appropriate measures, including education, research, and legislation, shall be taken to guarantee these rights and to ensure that they not be sacrificed for present expediencies and conveniences.

Article 5. Governments, non-governmental organizations, and the individuals are urged, therefore, imaginatively to implement these principles, as if in the very presence of those future generations whose rights we seek to establish and perpetuate.
end snip..

We distributed this principle in schools several years ago, as a tool for kids to use to have discussions with their parents on their future. Reactionaries found it to be a threat and banned such blasphemous concepts from being distributed in schools. It was a critical time for the community when the debate raged between a toxic incinerator or recycling. Recycling won out in that round. It was also a time when we started a community-wide river cleanup every fall to ensure the shorelines were free of trash that would wash into the river and on out to sea.

The Garbage Vortex in the Pacific is a symptom of the disease. There is no viable way to clean it up at this point. It is breaking down to the point where over a third of the fish tested have plastic pellets in their stomachs, pellets that accumulate extremely high levels of so-called persistent organic pollutants. Hundreds of thousands of albatross chicks are dying from being fed bottle caps and other debris that their parents mistake for food. America would not perish if we quit buying 24 million plastic bottles every hour. In fact we would probably benefit financially by not buying into the bottled water scam, and be healthier from not ingesting the chemicals in those bottles.
http://e360.yale.edu/content/digest.msp?id=1772

We have an opportunity to change the way we do things, to do them smarter, efficiently, conservatively (conservation), far more sustainably, and equitably for those generations to come. We have the wealth and resources for now to make the transition. It will not happen if we allow it to get to the point of a systemic failure. It should be a moral imperative, or at least a sacred trust to those to come to leave the place as good or better than we found it.

We legislate speed limits, pollution limits, fecal content in food, and all sorts activities for the common good. We have laws against theft, fraud and and manslaughter. Our current culture is engaged in those activities against future generations.

The side effect of reining in our consumer culture would be that we would have to work less to buy junk, have more time to spend in pursuit of happiness, and be able to look the kids in the eye and say we are trying.

Annie Leonard has a 20 minute synopsis on stuff..
http://www.storyofstuff.com/
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