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Show ALL Forums  > Politics  > A great day for America      Home login  
 AUTHOR
 GeneralizingNow
Joined: 10/10/2007
Msg: 2
A great day for AmericaPage 1 of 17    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17)
I have noticed that the countries that have socialized medicine also allow boobies on TV.
That correlation alone should have swayed a lot of the dudes here, yes?


My only concern is what else was signed in because it was attached to the medicine portion--that's what always what worries me in the USA. The part of the bill that they DON'T talk about. I just binged it and couldn't find the riders, but you just know there were some unsavory ones added. I wish THAT part of the Legislative arm of government would go away.
 Alli_oop
Joined: 6/30/2009
Msg: 3
A great day for America
Posted: 3/21/2010 9:54:40 PM
I think it's great. As a canadian looking at you guys, I'm happy things are shifting. And watch if things do go completely all the way and there's total reform, these freaky people like glen beck will grow to love it then claim America was the first nation to perfect the socialized/universal health care system.
lol
But I'm glad that things are progressing, it was very good news to hear.
 Vancer
Joined: 10/29/2006
Msg: 5
A great day for America
Posted: 3/21/2010 10:04:07 PM
And watch if things do go completely all the way and there's total reform, these freaky people like glen beck will grow to love it then claim America was the first nation to perfect the socialized/universal health care system.


I don't think Glen Beck, or people like him, will ever love the idea of universal health care. I am Canadian too, and can honestly say socialized heath care has its pros and cons. The Beckman will continue to focus on the cons.
In my opinion it is a step in the right direction, but it is still a direction that needs work. At least the average American, who for whatever reason may find they could not afford health insurance at any point in their life, will have one less thing to worry about when trying to get their life back on track.
 hellofla
Joined: 2/7/2009
Msg: 6
A great day for America
Posted: 3/21/2010 10:14:34 PM
We'll SEE,,,,the FEDS have proved they can't manage $$$$$$$.
What.s next from Pelosilini?
 Calray
Joined: 12/25/2006
Msg: 13
A great day for America
Posted: 3/21/2010 11:32:00 PM
I don't think this is over yet. It will be interesting to see how this plays out in the courts. 38 out of 50 states have stated that they will sue on constitutional grounds. I have to wonder how the commerce clause of the Constitution, which gives the federal government authority to regulate interstate commerce, can be applied to an industry that is so INTRASTATE, that it can not be purchased across state lines. And we're already beginning to see which groups will be made more equal than others in this legislation, specifically states with swing votes which were problematic when the bill was considered on it's own merits. So now the taxpayers of Indiana and Missouri will have the privilege of working extra hard to pick up the bill for the constituents of Louisiana, Michigan, and Nebraska because congressmen from those states used their vote as leverage to exempt their states from having to pay taxes and expenses generated by this reform. This could cause problems under the equal protections clause. I've never been so interested in the legislative process, but this is fascinating.

And the REALLY interesting time will come in November.
 Delete_Me_Please
Joined: 11/10/2009
Msg: 15
A great day for America
Posted: 3/22/2010 12:27:53 AM

for what ever the reason, the majority of the people DO NOT want this bill passed as it is presented to us.

Yes, that's true. But at the same time, recent polls showed the majority of Americans would be pissed if no national health care passed. I happen to be one who wants national health care but am thoroughly disappointed with what happened to this bill. It's not too often we cocky Americans say this but I wish we'd just copied Canada's health care system and anybody who didn't like it could then purchase private health insurance.
 Dancing_4_You
Joined: 1/21/2006
Msg: 17
view profile
History
A great day for America
Posted: 3/22/2010 2:51:52 AM
money magazine just came out with a good article on improvements in the economy and why "people" hang onto fear based opinions. the smut that has been spread amongst the masses of fear based civilians, has made it's mark. before the hate mongering, americans were all for health insurance reform.

to me, it's a good start. i've seen better "experiments" implemented on a statewide basis, but also not w/o their unique political opposition. with politicians running amock, it would be impossible to have started with the "best" package. but, once it goes back and forth, up and down and then gets passed to the ones who draw up the regs which initiate implementation--and these then go to the states to interpret and administer actual policies and programs--maybe...soon... some people will not die unecessarily due to lack of access to our "modern" health care delivery system--reserved only for the few who can afford it and the ones who are not sick enough to have their insurance companies try to drop them from coverage!
 *Wild at Heart*
Joined: 3/2/2010
Msg: 18
A great day for America
Posted: 3/22/2010 2:55:09 AM
Here's an interesting article you might want to check out........................http://www.naturalnews.com/028416_health_care_reform_legislation.html
 Chevgirl
Joined: 9/21/2009
Msg: 19
A great day for America
Posted: 3/22/2010 5:01:19 AM
Congratulations USA! The bill might not be perfect but it is a step in the right direction to making health care a right and not just for those who can afford to be screwed over by the health insurance companies.
 OMG!WTF!
Joined: 12/3/2007
Msg: 21
view profile
History
A great day for America
Posted: 3/22/2010 7:34:29 AM
I think I just heard Pelosi say that this health care reform will save a trillion dollars in taxes and insure 32 million previously uninsured "victims", I mean citizens. That's wicked. I wish she'd come work for Canada. Puff the Magic Dragon just quit. He was rad too.
 xxxDINOxxx
Joined: 8/12/2009
Msg: 22
A great day for America
Posted: 3/22/2010 8:06:55 AM

Congratulations USA! The bill might not be perfect but it is a step in the right direction to making health care a right and not just for those who can afford to be screwed over by the health insurance companies.


This about sums it up. I agree. It's a small step in the right direction, finally, after so many years of trying this kind of thing. Compared to what other countries have already been doing for their citizens for decades now, it's not a very big step, but it's a start. I predict in the future (albeit perhaps a generation away) we'll move towards something more like a Canadian-style system here, and this will have been the foundation of it, the beginning.

How to fund something like that sometime in the future?? Higher taxes for the rich, yes. And another thought: close some superfluous military bases around the world, end an occupation or two, and decrease drastically on defense spending (it should really be called "offense" spending in this country anyway IMO.... the US hasn't literally and truly been on the defense against another country or countries since immediately after Pearl Harbor in WWII).
 slybandit
Joined: 7/10/2006
Msg: 23
A great day for America
Posted: 3/22/2010 9:00:56 AM
The U.S. is not going to dramatically decrease defense spending any time soon.

Fundamentally, defense spending in the U.S. has never been anything other than a Keynesian stimulus, except that Republicans claim to be against any other kind of Keynesian stimulus, while in practice steadily increasing the size of government whenever they're elected. No elected politician is really going to vote for putting a dent into a procurement process that allows him or her to put defence industry jobs in their state.

You spend a ton of tax dollars on things that are fundamentally useless for most purposes, except that their usefulness lies in their being a justification for spending politically allocated tax dollars, thereby stimulating the domestic economy. It's no different, really, than hiring hundreds of thousands of people to dig holes then fill them in again, except that unmanned drone aircraft seem way niftier than a bunch of holes in the ground.

The U.S. is also not going to seriously increase income taxes on the rich, either. That sort of step just produces perverse results: the rich step up their efforts at tax avoidance and out-and-out evasion, and capital flight results. I'm no big fan of the rich, I just recognize realities.

A few real solutions lie in recognizing the fact that you cannot run entitlements programs which are designed around 65-70 year lifespans, in a country with 80-90 year lifespans.

It cannot work; it only ever worked temporarily because of the baby boomer population bulge. Retirement age has to move to 75, and people 65 to 75 have to be expected to keep working. If they're healthy, why not? If they want to retire earlier, let them do so, IF they can pay for it themselves.

And the present U.S. system for pricing prescription medications is ludicrous. Why does a giant government deficit have to be incurred, to enrich pharaceutical corporations and allow the rest of the developed's world's seniors a cheap ride on the back of U.S. seniors? I don't know what's been changed in that area in the new bill, but if there's a radical overhaul it would be about time.
 xxxDINOxxx
Joined: 8/12/2009
Msg: 24
A great day for America
Posted: 3/22/2010 9:11:21 AM
The U.S. is not going to dramatically decrease defense spending any time soon.

Fundamentally, defense spending in the U.S. has never been anything other than a Keynesian stimulus, except that Republicans claim to be against any other kind of Keynesian stimulus, while in practice steadily increasing the size of government whenever they're elected. No elected politician is really going to vote for putting a dent into a procurement process that allows him or her to put defence industry jobs in their state.

You spend a ton of tax dollars on things that are fundamentally useless for most purposes, except that their usefulness lies in their being a justification for spending politically allocated tax dollars, thereby stimulating the domestic economy...

The U.S. is also not going to seriously increase income taxes on the rich, either. That sort of step just produces perverse results: the rich step up their efforts at tax avoidance and out-and-out evasion, and capital flight results. I'm no big fan of the rich, I just recognize realities.


I agree. I'm sure the above is the realistic viewpoint. The military-industrial complex will remain as bloated as ever I'm sure. War, or a sense of being nearly constantly on the brink of war or threatened by war (if not "at war") seems to be a true cottage industry in this country. They won't give it up or fundamentally change that. Not in most of our lifetimes at least.

I was just saying though, what they should do, it was just *IMO*.
 arwen52
Joined: 3/13/2008
Msg: 25
view profile
History
A great day for America
Posted: 3/22/2010 9:22:35 AM

70% of the polled americans were against it...yet it still passed...shows who is in power and who the powerful listen to

Depends on which poll you look to and exactly how they asked the question. Galllup poll said 48%.


This does not concern me, I am fully covered.

For now. This is the problem, in my mind. The vast majority of Americans are covered through their jobs. They don't care. Those of us who are self-employed, or lose their jobs, or work in low-wage jobs that do not provide health insurance are in a very precarious situation.

My relatives in Italy find it hard to believe that we don't have some sort of universal health care here.

After Bush invaded Iraq, one of the things he promised the Iraqi people was to make sure everyone had health care. I wondered how come it was good for the Iraqi people and not good for us?
 xxxDINOxxx
Joined: 8/12/2009
Msg: 26
A great day for America
Posted: 3/22/2010 9:37:35 AM
^^Good question.

It's funny how the Republicans are running around already trying to get this repealed. Right...... And the article below is coming from a source that (like the David Frum blog I posted in the other thread) is not exactly inclined in favor of it:

http://www.businessinsider.com/one-thing-thats-100-guaranteed-the-healthcare-bill-will-never-be-repealed-2010-3

Already Republicans plan on introducing a bill this week to repeal last night's historic healthcare vote.

Obviously that's going nowhere.

But looking out, Republicans will probably try to run on repeal in the runup until November. It's possible that will play okay at the ballot (we don't know) but anyone who thinks this is a realistic prospect is smoking something illegal.

First of all, to repeal the vote would be just as difficult legislatively as passing healthcare was, so just think of how hard that was. Republicans would need 60 pro-repeal votes in the Senate to defeat a Democratic filibuster. And remember, they'd need a President who wouldn't veto the bill (i.e. not Obama or any Democrat).

But even that's putting too fine a point on it. Here's the real story, and it gets down to the fact that this new bureaucratic superstructure is now permanently ossified into our federal government.

There's just no way to repeal benefits. Even if people don't seem to like the new plan, there's no way a politician successfully runs on some combination of: let's go back to when insurance companies could exclude you for pre-existing conditions and let's go back to when your kid gets kicked off your healthcare plan the moment he or she gets out of college.

See the problem? It's the same reason no other benefit or entitlement will ever disappear.
 barbee1970
Joined: 12/29/2008
Msg: 27
A great day for America
Posted: 3/22/2010 10:36:11 AM
Sorry but universal health care still scares me to death!

Is the government going to decide if we live, die, or get the care we need. If Nancy Pelosi agrees that too is scary.

Our government messes up every thing they touch. Public Aid, Medicaid, any of their programs treat people like cattle.

The only good thing about is is people have to carry their own insurance. Part of the reason health care is so high is we are also paying for those who can't pay their own.
 Helen0426
Joined: 6/2/2009
Msg: 30
A great day for America
Posted: 3/22/2010 11:10:01 AM
What was ultimately passed won't affect most of the population at all, only about 10%. Good starting point though.

I find it supremely funny that, despite the most major provision of the final bill's being essentially identical to what Romney managed to effect almost single-handedly in Massachusetts, he is condemning it.

Even funnier that it was my observation of the effects of that which swayed me to support this! I thought mandating that people obtain coverage was nuts until I saw how much it benefited the people in my state.

Romney actually had a good idea there. Now Obama's made it happen for the nation.

O, irony...
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 31
A great day for America
Posted: 3/22/2010 11:10:11 AM
It may be a great day for America, but not so much for the rest of the world.

Obviously whenever there is big money to be made, there will be efforts to try to get some. So in every country that has Universal Health there are some who want to scrap it and go American. Equally obviously, people die unnecessarily in every hospital in the world - doctors and nurses are human beings. When I screw up at work, nobody dies.

Anyway, the lobbies in the first world nations use these cases and say we should privatize. Unfortunately for them, the US stands as an object lesson in Laissez Faire medical. There isn't a human being anywhere in the world who would willingly give up actual health coverage for the disastrous American system. By making the American system better, Obama has helped the well funded lobbies here in Canada and in the rest of the First World.
 Helen0426
Joined: 6/2/2009
Msg: 34
A great day for America
Posted: 3/22/2010 11:43:51 AM

We do need reform, to make health care more available to all, and to help those who have it, keep it, when they get sick.

That's what this bill does. You can read it - it's available online.
http://docs.house.gov/edlabor/AAHCA-BillText-071409.pdf

The legalese can be a pain in the neck, though. Here's a pretty good breakdown:
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20000846-503544.html
 readyfornow
Joined: 5/15/2009
Msg: 35
view profile
History
A great day for America
Posted: 3/22/2010 12:06:51 PM
I'm glad this step towards Socialism doesn't apply to me. I've got TriCare and the VA.
 CMonster
Joined: 12/4/2004
Msg: 36
A great day for America
Posted: 3/22/2010 12:07:04 PM
Congratulations USA! The bill might not be perfect but it is a step in the right direction to making health care a right and not just for those who can afford to be screwed over by the health insurance companies.

The bill states that within the next four years individuals will be required to purchase insurance coverage or face a fine of $95 or one percent of their income (whichever is greater). The fine will increase the following year to $325 or two percent of their income (whichever is greater). The third year the fine will increase to $695 or 2.5 percent of the person's income. One guess who would be the recipient of these fines.

Yep, it may not be perfect but it is a step in a direction. Whether it's the "right" direction depends on how big of a steaming pile you end up stepping in.
 xxxDINOxxx
Joined: 8/12/2009
Msg: 37
A great day for America
Posted: 3/22/2010 12:07:14 PM
Some realities about the bill, etc, by Robert Reich:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-reich/the-final-health-care-vot_b_507596.html

" It's not nearly as momentous as the passage of Medicare in 1965 and won't fundamentally alter how Americans think about social safety nets. But the passage of Obama's health care reform bill is the biggest thing Congress has done in decades, and has enormous political significance for the future.

Medicare directly changed the life of every senior in America, giving them health security and dramatically reducing their rates of poverty. By contrast, most Americans won't be affected by Obama's health care legislation. Most of us will continue to receive health insurance through our employers. (Only a comparatively small minority will be required to buy insurance who don't want it, or be subsidized in order to afford it. Only a relatively few companies will be required to provide it who don't now.)

Medicare built on Franklin D. Roosevelt's New Deal notion of government as insurer, with citizens making payments to government, and government paying out benefits. That was the central idea of Social Security, and Medicare piggybacked on Social Security.

Obama's legislation comes from an alternative idea, begun under the Eisenhower administration and developed under Nixon, of a market for health care based on private insurers and employers. Eisenhower locked in the tax break for employee health benefits; Nixon pushed prepaid, competing health plans, and urged a requirement that employers cover their employees. Obama applies Nixon's idea and takes it a step further by requiring all Americans to carry health insurance, and giving subsidies to those who need it.

So don't believe anyone who says Obama's health care legislation marks a swing of the pendulum back toward the Great Society and the New Deal. Obama's health bill is a very conservative piece of legislation, building on a Republican rather than a New Deal foundation. The New Deal foundation would have offered Medicare to all Americans or, at the very least, featured a public insurance option.


The significance of Obama's health legislation is more political than substantive. For the first time since Ronald Reagan told America government is the problem, Obama's health bill reasserts that government can provide a major solution. In political terms, that's a very big deal.

Most Americans continue to be suspicious of government. That distrust is deeply etched in our culture and traditions. Our system of government was devised by people who distrusted government and intentionally created checks and balances, three separate branches, and almost insuperable odds against getting big things done. The period extending from 1933 to 1965 -- the New Deal and the Great Society -- was an historical aberration from that long tradition, animated by the unique crises of the Great Depression and World War II, and the social cohesion that flowed from them for another generation. Ronald Reagan merely picked up where Calvin Coolidge and Herbert Hoover left off.

But Reagan's view of government as the problem is increasingly at odds with a nation whose system of health care relies on large for-profit entities designed to make money rather than improve health; whose economy is dependent on global capital and on global corporations and financial institutions with no particular loyalty to America; and much of whose fuel comes from unstable and dangerous areas of the world. Under these conditions, government is the only entity that can look out for our interests.

We will not return to the New Deal or the Great Society, but nor will we continue to wallow in the increasingly obsolete Reagan view that we don't need a strong and competent government. Today's vote confirms our hope that we can have both strength and competence in Washington. It is an audacious hope, but we have no choice. "
 xxxDINOxxx
Joined: 8/12/2009
Msg: 38
A great day for America
Posted: 3/22/2010 12:11:54 PM
I'm glad this step towards Socialism doesn't apply to me. I've got TriCare and the VA.


So you're already using an essentially Socialist system, the VA. Yes, you're lucky then that this "step towards Socialism" doesn't apply to you...

http://www.slate.com/id/2114554/

" The English language desperately needs a word to describe something that is objectively true but unrecognized as such because nobody wants to believe it. I hereby coin one: "flakt." Henceforth, a flakt will be defined as a measurable, demonstrable reality that the great majority of people refuse to acknowledge. It is a flakt that, even though the American public is convinced that foreign aid makes up a huge proportion of the federal budget—in one 2001 poll, respondents put it at 24 percent of total spending—foreign aid makes up less than 1 percent of the federal budget. It is a flakt that the war in Iraq has impeded the international manhunt for Osama Bin Laden. It is a flakt that Million Dollar Baby was nowhere near the best picture released during 2004.

Phillip Longman published an article in the January/February Washington Monthly ("The Best Care Anywhere") that states a very important flakt: Socialized medicine has been tried in the United States, and it has proven superior to health care supplied by the private sector. This is a case the Monthly has made at least once before, in an article published by Phil Keisling in 1982, and possibly before that. But Longman's article should leave absolutely no room for doubt. (I should note here in the interest of full disclosure that Longman is a friend of mine; that 20 years ago I was an editor at the Monthly; and that today I'm a contributing editor.)

The socialized medicine to which I refer is the complex of hospitals managed by the Veterans Administration. Longman cites a study published in the New England Journal of Medicine in 2003 comparing veterans' hospitals with fee-for-service health care funded by Medicare. Both, of course, constitute socialized medicine in the sense that both are paid for by the federal government; but the hospitals treating elderly patients on Medicare are not government-run institutions. By every criterion, the New England Journal found the veterans' hospitals to be superior. This is especially striking when one considers, as the New England Journal noted, that patients in VA hospitals are more likely to be in poor health; to have a low level of education, disability, or a low income; to be black; and to have higher rates of psychiatric illness. These characteristics are associated with receiving poorer quality care.

Surveys by the National Committee for Quality Assurance and other organizations, have reached the same conclusion. The superiority of VA hospitals is so obvious that by now it ought to be common knowledge. But it isn't, because an insane political consensus that firmly opposes turning health care over to the government—because the government is presumed incapable of doing anything well—doesn't want to hear that government hospitals are outperforming private hospitals.

There are many reasons why this is so. One reason, Longman explains, is that people don't shuffle in and out of the VA system the way they shuffle in and out of private health care plans, either because they change jobs or because their employer decides to do business with a different insurance company. Another reason is that the doctors are salaried, and therefore lack any conceivable financial interest in subjecting a patient to avoidable medical procedures. But the main reason the VA hospitals are doing especially well these days is that they have adopted the same modern information technologies that have been embraced by every other sector of the economy....... (cont'd)"
 CMonster
Joined: 12/4/2004
Msg: 41
A great day for America
Posted: 3/22/2010 12:30:09 PM

People need to realize, those that oppose this bill, are not people who oppose reform, and yes, there is a lot of reform in this bill. But is is the other stuff, that is not necessary for healthcare reform that is in this bill, that people don't like.

Be careful about spouting such rhetoric. It goes completely against the effect of keeping a wedge between bipartisan reform.
 readyfornow
Joined: 5/15/2009
Msg: 42
view profile
History
A great day for America
Posted: 3/22/2010 12:34:12 PM
FYI Dino, TRICARE and VA benefits are for those of us who have earned them. Since you've never served this country, I don't really expect you to have a clue what the word "earned" even means.
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