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Show ALL Forums  > Politics  > A great day for America      Home login  
 AUTHOR
 GeneralizingNow
Joined: 10/10/2007
Msg: 2
A great day for AmericaPage 1 of 17    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17)
I have noticed that the countries that have socialized medicine also allow boobies on TV.
That correlation alone should have swayed a lot of the dudes here, yes?


My only concern is what else was signed in because it was attached to the medicine portion--that's what always what worries me in the USA. The part of the bill that they DON'T talk about. I just binged it and couldn't find the riders, but you just know there were some unsavory ones added. I wish THAT part of the Legislative arm of government would go away.
 Delete_Me_Please
Joined: 11/10/2009
Msg: 15
A great day for America
Posted: 3/22/2010 12:27:53 AM

for what ever the reason, the majority of the people DO NOT want this bill passed as it is presented to us.

Yes, that's true. But at the same time, recent polls showed the majority of Americans would be pissed if no national health care passed. I happen to be one who wants national health care but am thoroughly disappointed with what happened to this bill. It's not too often we cocky Americans say this but I wish we'd just copied Canada's health care system and anybody who didn't like it could then purchase private health insurance.
 Rythmn
Joined: 1/21/2006
Msg: 17
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History
A great day for America
Posted: 3/22/2010 2:51:52 AM
money magazine just came out with a good article on improvements in the economy and why "people" hang onto fear based opinions. the smut that has been spread amongst the masses of fear based civilians, has made it's mark. before the hate mongering, americans were all for health insurance reform.

to me, it's a good start. i've seen better "experiments" implemented on a statewide basis, but also not w/o their unique political opposition. with politicians running amock, it would be impossible to have started with the "best" package. but, once it goes back and forth, up and down and then gets passed to the ones who draw up the regs which initiate implementation--and these then go to the states to interpret and administer actual policies and programs--maybe...soon... some people will not die unecessarily due to lack of access to our "modern" health care delivery system--reserved only for the few who can afford it and the ones who are not sick enough to have their insurance companies try to drop them from coverage!
 OMG!WTF!
Joined: 12/3/2007
Msg: 21
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History
A great day for America
Posted: 3/22/2010 7:34:29 AM
I think I just heard Pelosi say that this health care reform will save a trillion dollars in taxes and insure 32 million previously uninsured "victims", I mean citizens. That's wicked. I wish she'd come work for Canada. Puff the Magic Dragon just quit. He was rad too.
 slybandit
Joined: 7/10/2006
Msg: 23
A great day for America
Posted: 3/22/2010 9:00:56 AM
The U.S. is not going to dramatically decrease defense spending any time soon.

Fundamentally, defense spending in the U.S. has never been anything other than a Keynesian stimulus, except that Republicans claim to be against any other kind of Keynesian stimulus, while in practice steadily increasing the size of government whenever they're elected. No elected politician is really going to vote for putting a dent into a procurement process that allows him or her to put defence industry jobs in their state.

You spend a ton of tax dollars on things that are fundamentally useless for most purposes, except that their usefulness lies in their being a justification for spending politically allocated tax dollars, thereby stimulating the domestic economy. It's no different, really, than hiring hundreds of thousands of people to dig holes then fill them in again, except that unmanned drone aircraft seem way niftier than a bunch of holes in the ground.

The U.S. is also not going to seriously increase income taxes on the rich, either. That sort of step just produces perverse results: the rich step up their efforts at tax avoidance and out-and-out evasion, and capital flight results. I'm no big fan of the rich, I just recognize realities.

A few real solutions lie in recognizing the fact that you cannot run entitlements programs which are designed around 65-70 year lifespans, in a country with 80-90 year lifespans.

It cannot work; it only ever worked temporarily because of the baby boomer population bulge. Retirement age has to move to 75, and people 65 to 75 have to be expected to keep working. If they're healthy, why not? If they want to retire earlier, let them do so, IF they can pay for it themselves.

And the present U.S. system for pricing prescription medications is ludicrous. Why does a giant government deficit have to be incurred, to enrich pharaceutical corporations and allow the rest of the developed's world's seniors a cheap ride on the back of U.S. seniors? I don't know what's been changed in that area in the new bill, but if there's a radical overhaul it would be about time.
 arwen52
Joined: 3/13/2008
Msg: 25
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A great day for America
Posted: 3/22/2010 9:22:35 AM

70% of the polled americans were against it...yet it still passed...shows who is in power and who the powerful listen to

Depends on which poll you look to and exactly how they asked the question. Galllup poll said 48%.


This does not concern me, I am fully covered.

For now. This is the problem, in my mind. The vast majority of Americans are covered through their jobs. They don't care. Those of us who are self-employed, or lose their jobs, or work in low-wage jobs that do not provide health insurance are in a very precarious situation.

My relatives in Italy find it hard to believe that we don't have some sort of universal health care here.

After Bush invaded Iraq, one of the things he promised the Iraqi people was to make sure everyone had health care. I wondered how come it was good for the Iraqi people and not good for us?
 barbee1970
Joined: 12/29/2008
Msg: 27
A great day for America
Posted: 3/22/2010 10:36:11 AM
Sorry but universal health care still scares me to death!

Is the government going to decide if we live, die, or get the care we need. If Nancy Pelosi agrees that too is scary.

Our government messes up every thing they touch. Public Aid, Medicaid, any of their programs treat people like cattle.

The only good thing about is is people have to carry their own insurance. Part of the reason health care is so high is we are also paying for those who can't pay their own.
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 31
A great day for America
Posted: 3/22/2010 11:10:11 AM
It may be a great day for America, but not so much for the rest of the world.

Obviously whenever there is big money to be made, there will be efforts to try to get some. So in every country that has Universal Health there are some who want to scrap it and go American. Equally obviously, people die unnecessarily in every hospital in the world - doctors and nurses are human beings. When I screw up at work, nobody dies.

Anyway, the lobbies in the first world nations use these cases and say we should privatize. Unfortunately for them, the US stands as an object lesson in Laissez Faire medical. There isn't a human being anywhere in the world who would willingly give up actual health coverage for the disastrous American system. By making the American system better, Obama has helped the well funded lobbies here in Canada and in the rest of the First World.
 readyfornow
Joined: 5/15/2009
Msg: 35
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History
A great day for America
Posted: 3/22/2010 12:06:51 PM
I'm glad this step towards Socialism doesn't apply to me. I've got TriCare and the VA.
 CMonster
Joined: 12/4/2004
Msg: 36
A great day for America
Posted: 3/22/2010 12:07:04 PM
Congratulations USA! The bill might not be perfect but it is a step in the right direction to making health care a right and not just for those who can afford to be screwed over by the health insurance companies.

The bill states that within the next four years individuals will be required to purchase insurance coverage or face a fine of $95 or one percent of their income (whichever is greater). The fine will increase the following year to $325 or two percent of their income (whichever is greater). The third year the fine will increase to $695 or 2.5 percent of the person's income. One guess who would be the recipient of these fines.

Yep, it may not be perfect but it is a step in a direction. Whether it's the "right" direction depends on how big of a steaming pile you end up stepping in.
 CMonster
Joined: 12/4/2004
Msg: 41
A great day for America
Posted: 3/22/2010 12:30:09 PM

People need to realize, those that oppose this bill, are not people who oppose reform, and yes, there is a lot of reform in this bill. But is is the other stuff, that is not necessary for healthcare reform that is in this bill, that people don't like.

Be careful about spouting such rhetoric. It goes completely against the effect of keeping a wedge between bipartisan reform.
 readyfornow
Joined: 5/15/2009
Msg: 42
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History
A great day for America
Posted: 3/22/2010 12:34:12 PM
FYI Dino, TRICARE and VA benefits are for those of us who have earned them. Since you've never served this country, I don't really expect you to have a clue what the word "earned" even means.
 readyfornow
Joined: 5/15/2009
Msg: 47
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History
A great day for America
Posted: 3/22/2010 12:58:33 PM
I'm just tired of the mindset that those benefits are nothing more than a handout. What a lot of people don't know is that TRICARE charges premiums as well as co-pays.
 slybandit
Joined: 7/10/2006
Msg: 48
A great day for America
Posted: 3/22/2010 12:59:38 PM
I don't know about the neologism, xxxDINOxxx, but a vast proportion of this whole debate consists in more-or-less irrelevant noise concealing just that:

"Measurable, demonstrable reality that the great majority of people refuse to acknowledge."

A lot of the nonsense in this debate would really just stand out as completely apparent nonsense if people would just drop the inflated political rhetoric and apply the actual common sense they would apply in their day to day lives.

1. Go to a Wal-Mart, buy a shirt. Notice that the price tag on the shirt is lower than it would be in a different store. Why?

No one with an ounce of common sense would seriously contest three good reasons (1) the people working in the Wal-Mart are getting paid less than people doing the same job elsewhere, (2) the people working in China making the shirts for Wal-Mart are getting paid less than anyone in the U.S., (3) Wal-Mart does it that way because it makes more money moving more shirts off the shelves, and it does that by underpricing everyone else. This just obviously leads to a problem-- lower prices, yes, but lower WAGES along with that, and a problem for these shirts to find a market. This is in your interest if you can get a better job than a Wal-Mart stocker or a needletrade worker, and obviously not in your interest if you cannot.

2. Go to a hospital: apply the same logic.

If it's a "for-profit" hospital, that profit has to come from somewhere. If you're paying, as a customer, it's coming out of your pocket.

If the physicians are getting compensated per procedure, guess what? In the event of any doubt, you're getting an additional procedure.

Everything that can be marked up and overpriced to you, IS GOING to be marked up and overpriced to you, because you're a captive customer for the duration of your stay. Gauze that costs $1.50 at a drugstore will be relabeled "surgical grade" and sold to you for $10.50. Bet on it.

Insurance is the same way. Anyone with the self-discipline to save 10% of their income their entire lives to cover for an eventual medical emergency might in theory be able to self-insure but the vast, vast, vast majority of people cannot do that, both because they lack the self-discipline and because medical emergencies are not predictable.

Result? A profit margin is created by "insurance", which is nothing other than taking a whole bunch of people's money to buy less health care than that same money would buy directly, skimming profit off the top and employing a vast bureaucracy to limit access to care for the people who are actually paying for it.

So-called "socialized" medicine is in the hard-core enlightened greedy self-interest of every single citizen except the ones who make their income in the health insurance, pharmaceutical or medical-care industries. Anyone who tells you differently is (a) selling something, either health care, insurance or PR about health care, (b) misinformed by people selling health care, insurance or PR about health care or (c) just misinformed generally. Everywhere else in the Western industrialized world the population "gets it", it's just that there are more and better paid liars (sorry-- PR people) working on U.S. citizens.
 Strings6
Joined: 7/14/2007
Msg: 55
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History
A great day for America
Posted: 3/22/2010 2:43:58 PM
The philosophy that everybody should have everything or nobody should have anything has acheived it's first victory,now watch it be applied to other things...if socialized Medicine is so great then how come the medical advances and miracles were not created within it but within a capitalist system.I hope everyone is satisfied with the staus quo because if any of you think you can take the profit motive out and still have progress you're fooling yourself.
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 59
A great day for America
Posted: 3/22/2010 3:17:27 PM

Currently there isn't enough facilities to train said people that want to go into the Health Care Field, nor enough people who want to go into the Health Care Field if there were the facilities to train them in.

Currently in many areas of America many who have to insurance , even top of the line insurance ,are not able to secure a primary care physical due to a drastic shortage of Physicians and physician assistants.

Assuming that is true... you don't think that may have something to do with the fact that a large percentage of Americans can't afford their services...?

Wouldn't it have been a good idea to fixed that problem first....

As a complaint, a problem that needs to be fixed, it's a lot like complaining that there aren't enough Armani boutiques in low income neighbourhoods and we should fix that before we give the poor money to buy clothes...

There isn't a lot of point in providing training and building facilities if people can't afford the service any more than there is a point in opening an Armani boutique in a neighbourhood where the people can't afford the clothes...
 aSydneyMale
Joined: 5/16/2006
Msg: 60
A great day for America
Posted: 3/22/2010 3:18:44 PM

..if socialized Medicine is so great then how come the medical advances and miracles were not created within it but within a capitalist system.

So, the only medical advances and miracles were created within a capitalist system?

Many of the finest medical research institutions in the world have been products of national health systems. In Australia, Canada, Britain, New Zealand, France and other countries with national health care, there are plenty of establishments that would be the envy of the US.

What many enquiring minds outside of the US can't understand is why there is such a debate in the first place. universal health care should be available to everybody.
 CMonster
Joined: 12/4/2004
Msg: 62
A great day for America
Posted: 3/22/2010 3:32:33 PM
Assuming that is true... you don't think that may have something to do with the fact that a large percentage of Americans can't afford their services...?

Which broaches the question (yet again) of why people are choosing a knee-jerk solution of subsidizing an inefficient system such as healthcare as opposed to addressing the real problem of healthcare being so expensive. Can anyone think of a reason why we shouldn't allow health insurance companies to compete for customers across state lines such like auto insurance companies? Wouldn't direct competition be part of a viable solution to lowering the cost of healthcare for everyone as opposed to a select subset of people? How much would that cost in comparison to the proposed bill?
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 63
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History
A great day for America
Posted: 3/22/2010 3:40:23 PM
I just worked on another hospital expansion today, yet another MRI machine in a market flooded with these high priced, high tech machines, overused merely to pay for them by competing hospitals all needing to constantly upgrade and out-compete one another for the big insurance bucks. Much of the current health casino system caters to the wealthiest and those who still have their insurance policies. The health casino always wins, pays for the toys and bells and whistles, redundancy driving up costs for everyone. Health care costs and insurance rates are directly tied together, and both are tied to high tech that is over-used for even the most routine issues.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/09/24/eveningnews/main5337931.shtml

I too am in the VA Socialist system. (War tends to have consequences for life for a large percentage who serve, both physically, and emotionally which leads to physical) The oil wars will actually cost a few trillion when lifetime care is taken into account for those sacrificed. The VA system works with other clinics to share their technology to better focus their resources on primary and preventative care. The VA system has also led the nation in electronic record-keeping and efficiency in the information passing through the system and beyond. The private sector high tech race has left many unable to afford skyrocketing insurance rates and deductibles in large part to that race to grab the big bucks.

I agree that the bill had something for everyone to be nervous about, and agree that it is a start and there will be growing pains. Merely because there have been some problems with the VA, I have not heard anyone clamoring to scrap it. Likewise, a few potholes or a collapsing bridge here and there does not elicit a cry and hue to scrap the socialist highway system of the US.

In the slippery slope..what next. People clamoring for socialized clean air, clean water, food free of e-coli and salmonella?

Esme...great post.
 CMonster
Joined: 12/4/2004
Msg: 66
A great day for America
Posted: 3/22/2010 4:26:59 PM
There are only 7 major companies... DO you suggest breaking them up?

Nah, believe it or not they're not a monopoly; at least compared to the old "Ma Bell." I say allow all of them access to compete in all 50 states and let the best company win. And by "win" I mean that there will be certain companies who would provide particular services in a area better than their competitors and others will do better providing other services. If things are even still, the smart ones will provide incentives much like the better auto insurers.

For example, spend less than x amount in a given period and be given a rebate or a lower deductible. Don't have any major claims at all in a given cycle and get two or three months of free coverage. There could be partnerships with health and wellness companies where if you are either healthy or get on a physician monitored wellness system, you get a discount at the wellness company.

Businesses have the resources and ability to offer incentives to the people typically with less outlay from the patrons than the Feds could ever do. Businesses are much more apt to cut dead weight to become lean, the Federal government won't do that so readily. This is why the major companies won't need to be forced to be "broken up." They will strip themselves as necessary to compete with one another.
 Strings6
Joined: 7/14/2007
Msg: 69
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History
A great day for America
Posted: 3/22/2010 4:43:55 PM
Sydneymale,pardon me if i have no desire to live in a country that is like the places you mentioned...including and especialy Australia.I think i'll visit the Australian forums and see if there are alot of Americans there concerning themselves with what goes on in Australia and telling Australians how they can be more like everybody else.

SaharaM,don't just grab your ankles when you can touch your toes.
 FL CO
Joined: 12/23/2008
Msg: 71
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History
A great day for America
Posted: 3/22/2010 4:56:25 PM
One giant leap toward socialism
 CMonster
Joined: 12/4/2004
Msg: 72
A great day for America
Posted: 3/22/2010 5:00:26 PM

The USA is the only country in the world that allows a profit for the Insurance companies on basic health care.

The only thing that will lower price will be a Public option.

And this is what I believe why many of the people who are proponents of a public option, they either don't trust or don't understand how commercial enterprises [should] operate. Believing that someone shouldn't profit for services rendered is basically denouncing the very thing which allowed this country to grow and flourish.

These companies are making a ton because of the superfluous administrative activities folded into the cost of services. It's similar to how our Federal government operates which makes the situation laughably ironic. People want a government provided solution because of their lack of trust of "big business" while not realizing that the US Government is one of the worst run corporations in the world.
 woobytoodsday
Joined: 12/13/2006
Msg: 73
A great day for America
Posted: 3/22/2010 5:10:20 PM

Anyone in America has the right to buy healthcare insurance

Well, as long as they have big bucks, live in the right state, and have NO "preexisting medical conditions" . . . .

As for the 70% who don't want this bill. Couldn't find it. Did find this:


A CNN/Opinion Research Corporation poll found that 59 percent of those surveyed opposed the bill, and 39 percent favored it. All of the interviews were conducted before the House voted Sunday night, but the contents of the bill were widely known.

. . . . [however]

The CNN poll also suggests that public opposition to health care will not necessarily be a boon to Republicans in the 2010 midterm elections in Congress.

Roughly one in five of respondents who said they opposed the bill did so because it was not liberal enough, and those people are unlikely to vote Republican. Take them out of the picture and opposition to the bill because it is too liberal is 43 percent. [my emphasis]


http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2010/03/22/cnn-poll-americans-dont-like-health-care-bill/?fbid=51ba6LN8wjQ

Personally, I'm delighted. Now they can get down to making it better. . . .

 Legal sized fish
Joined: 11/16/2009
Msg: 74
A great day for America
Posted: 3/22/2010 5:29:20 PM
Yeah if its so great why was it pushed ahead so quickly?

Why is congress exempt from this plan?

Why did Canada's head muckety muck come to the USA for medical care?

Does anyone think that this massive undertaking will be free of waste, graft and corruption?
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