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Show ALL Forums  > Single Parents  > Canada child support law for non-bio parents: different points of view      Home login  
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 NowSucksLess
Joined: 2/4/2010
Msg: 2
Canada child support law for non-bio parents: different points of viewPage 1 of 10    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10)
Interesting question but why stop at visitation; why not open up the issue of primary custody too?
 Capitano_Blaugh
Joined: 3/18/2008
Msg: 3
Canada child support law for non-bio parents: different points of view
Posted: 4/4/2010 8:22:47 AM

If the step-parent breaks up with the primary caregiver, and he/she has to pay child support, this also means that he/she is entitled to see the child legally, and act as a legal parent (like an adoption). It means the primary caregiver cannot prevent the step-parent from continuing to be present in the child's life (absent of abuse of course).


Nope. Visitation and child support are separate issues. A non-bio related person would not have any automatic legal right to see the kid.


It is a recognition of the strength and importance of the relationship between the non-bio parent and the child.


Nope, it's strictly the recognition of past financial support of a kid. Any warm-fuzzy relationship stuff would have to be agreed to separately between the non-bio person and the bio-parent.

Here are a couple of things about this law that I only learned about when I got nailed with it:

- in loco parentis can result in CS being ordered is less time than a relationship between the two adults can be legally regared as Common Law (in B.C. at least)

- double dipping is legal as it was in my case. Because I made more money than the bio-dad, I was ordered to pay as well even though mother was collecting from bio-dad.

It's nothing more than a money-grab.

 NowSucksLess
Joined: 2/4/2010
Msg: 4
Canada child support law for non-bio parents: different points of view
Posted: 4/4/2010 8:26:50 AM

It's nothing more than a money-grab.


Figures.

Anybody know how it works in the US?
 Tealwood
Joined: 12/16/2008
Msg: 5
Canada child support law for non-bio parents: different points of view
Posted: 4/4/2010 8:47:56 AM
Conscious Soul

You would have to illustrate where step parents were able to acquire every other weekend access when the biological parent is also accessing the same? As far as I know there is very little to no legal protection for step parents in access right.....?

We would also have to ask why the finacial contribution of the step parents is not considered relevant when they are married but when the relationship disolves it is relevant...that is also s double edged sword?

But then supposing the bio logical parent has access every other weekend and every Wed.....the step parent every Tuesday and every other weekend....

30%+ 30% + 60%...with 40% or less with the primary parent or suggesting that the primary parent would not need child support since the child is not with them the majority of the time...

But then would you also still be still supporting the primary ((which they would not be any longer)) parent being part time workers or stay at home parents since they obviously would not have the majority of the time with the child or children?


In other words, asking for child support from a boyfriend/girlfriend for your child is, at the same time, recognizing legally that the step-parent is seen as a real parent for the child


So if you are going to accept the finacial emotional support of the step parent after the relationship disolves...then you have to accept it before it disolves...and you will never find any woman who will accept this premise as they fear it will will make them even greater liabilities in the dating world..as they will strongly suggest it is not the responsibility of the step parent to be finacially responsible..until the marriage fails..then they change their tune.

Now I have been a little gender specific and I may get challenged on this...but then I am extrapolating also the reality that the majority of custodial men also are not receiving child support...so the numbers of custodial men who would also demand and ask for child support from both the biological mother and the step mother might be somewhat miniscule?

but then I did get into it with a very intersting custodial father a year ago who was complaining about not getting any cs... and how she was just barely able to support herself.....

How about asking or requiring that all parents being finacially responsible for themselves and their children and then perhaps some minor income adjustment but not enough that it penalizes a parent who is working hard and benefits a parent who is looking for someone else to subsidize their lack of ambition?

But why should a single custodial parent be entiltted to sit at home and collect child support from two separate individuals...collect the benefits from our government programs and perhaps play at working part time?
 carolann0308
Joined: 12/9/2006
Msg: 6
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Canada child support law for non-bio parents: different points of view
Posted: 4/4/2010 10:05:24 AM
My issue with it is unless the couple marries, the new man should be under no obligation to the child. The Mother (or Father) should never allow a person they are just sleeping with/dating to assume the roll of parent. Boundaries should be made VERY clear. If the relationship is not legal then why should the Gov't have the rights to intervene?
Know the laws there, I would advise any young person in Canada to avoid a live in situation where children are present for this very reason. Roommates or lovers should not be forced to be parents. I completely agree it sounds like a money grab. No one including the Gov't should be raising your child for you.
 NowSucksLess
Joined: 2/4/2010
Msg: 7
Canada child support law for non-bio parents: different points of view
Posted: 4/4/2010 10:36:49 AM

Know the laws there, I would advise any young person in Canada to avoid a live in situation where children are present for this very reason. Roommates or lovers should not be forced to be parents.


Wise words.

Policies such as this are anti-family.

I've dated two moms with kids and if those kids needed anything (now or in the future), I wouldn't hesitate to provide it but the government has no business dictating my role.
 KarmicEvolution
Joined: 11/22/2008
Msg: 8
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Canada child support law for non-bio parents: different points of view
Posted: 4/4/2010 11:16:43 AM
For myself, if I was with someone long enough that my daughter considered them "Dad" I would expect that person to stay involved in her life at least a little or I must have REALLY mis-judged that person. Especially if his side of the family was also involved in her life. In one swoop she loses Dad, Gramma, Grampa, Aunts, Uncles, Cousins, thats not fair to anyone involved.

Monetarily I wouldnt expect them to pay support but if my daughter was going for a visit I wouldnt be sending money for while she was there. And if gifts were given for holidays while we were together I would expect that to continue once were apart, just because her holidays shouldnt change (This is only if they stay in contact obviously)

These are kids, not pawns in a sick game. As much as I know there are people out there who would do this, I just couldnt.
 kissmyasthma
Joined: 12/4/2009
Msg: 10
Canada child support law for non-bio parents: different points of view
Posted: 4/4/2010 12:07:32 PM
Funny thing is if most of the posters in this thread are opposed to such legislation, how is it that it is now currently law? Sure I get the whole case precedent thing but somewhere along the line we have either turned our eyes to this BS or agree with the premise.

I have suggested( in writing to the powers that be ) that it is issues such as this type of law that need to be separated from political shuffling. There are many family laws that are questionable and are in need of overhaul. I can only speak for myself here in Ontario although there are more similarities across Canada than from what I perceive happening in the US.

This seems like the easiest and cheapest way for the government to cope with making sure that a child's needs are met first . I can only see more of this happening considering the rise of unwed women opting to keep children these days. I have no qualms about that but doesn't this just add to an already lopsided set of easily accessible revenue streams when we really should be trying to curb a growing trend?
For any child under the age of three a new SO of the primary parent will easily become seen as a parental figure.

This could happen much easier and often for those of lower incomes for their tends to be a tendency of moving in together purely for the purpose of economics. As much as many single moms would like to believe I do not think they fully realize that this and other factors make wanting to get involved with them a very precarious choice.

I do not see a mindset shift yet that sees the majority acting as the village they would have us believe there to be, too many are really only able to afford to look out for themselves.
 Tealwood
Joined: 12/16/2008
Msg: 12
Canada child support law for non-bio parents: different points of view
Posted: 4/4/2010 1:37:45 PM
mchurch..in this case the it was not the judges but the legislature that added the clause...


Divorce Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. 3 (2nd Supp.)

Child of the marriage

(2) For the purposes of the definition “child of the marriage” in subsection (1), a child of two spouses or former spouses includes

(a) any child for whom they both stand in the place of parents; and

(b) any child of whom one is the parent and for whom the other stands in the place of a parent.


Now this section was in the divorce act prior to 1985...or Brian Mulrooney

Chartier v. Chartier

File No.: 26456.
Hearing and judgment: November 12, 1998.


The concern that a child might collect support from both the biological parent and the step-parent was not a valid one. The contribution to be paid by the biological parent should be assessed independently of the obligations of the step‑parent. The obligation to support a child arises as soon as that child is determined to be “a child of the marriage”. The obligations of parents for a child are all joint and several. The issue of contribution is one between all of the parents who have obligations towards the child, whether they are biological parents or step‑parents; it should not affect the child. If a parent seeks contribution from another parent, he or she must, in the meantime, pay support for the child regardless of the obligations of the other parent.


Chartier decision assumes the obligation to support the child arises as soon as the child is a child of the marriage...yet the biological parent paying is unable to use the income of the step parent to reduce or equalize income between households...not exactly equitable?

so the parent can collect spousal support...can collect child support from the biological parent and also collect child support from the step parent....

and Canadian woman wonder why some prudent guys...are worried or suggest it is prudent to be wary of single mothers...
 My I
Joined: 1/23/2007
Msg: 15
Canada child support law for non-bio parents: different points of view
Posted: 4/4/2010 3:50:01 PM
My situation as ruled and as predicted by my lawyer - regarding courts gender bias.

when I divorced after a 14 year marriage, I was ordered to pay support for my non-bio daughter. My ex collected support from the bio-father as well... double dipping, if you will.

Over the course of 10 years my ex was married and the children lived herand her husband for those ten years. Over a year and a halfago the kids moved in with me. We went to court and before going to court, my lawyer stated the judge would not make the step father pay any support whatsoever. When I asked why, he clearly stated the courts don't do that for men.

In regards to visitation: if you're not the bio-parent you have no rights to demand access or visits.

We went to court and that is exactly how the judge ruled. Non-bio-parents haven't the right to demand anything. They are simply required to continue with the financial support....and that's only if the mother is the recipient, not the father.
 ohwhynot46
Joined: 6/28/2009
Msg: 16
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Canada child support law for non-bio parents: different points of view
Posted: 4/4/2010 4:02:26 PM
Having gleaned what little I know about Canadian law from this site, I was beginning to understand why you men up there have the attitudes so often displayed (no offense). I admit, though, that thoughts similar to those expressed by the OP have crossed my mind. It seems that the problem with the law is that doesn't address rights, and I do think it should. Reality is that for every "deadbeat", there is a decent man, one who cares about, and for, his family, whether they be biological or otherwise. Don't they address "the best interest of the child" in Canada?
 Tealwood
Joined: 12/16/2008
Msg: 17
Canada child support law for non-bio parents: different points of view
Posted: 4/4/2010 4:15:37 PM

I don't agree with these laws. Going to make a step-dad pay child support but he has no rights to visitation. Its wrong. You can't leave a person on the hook for paying and supporting the child financially and then not give the person any rights for access to the child. Its a money scheme policy and it only hurts the child.


Wow....now Jenn...nothing personal...but it is so kind that you would suggest you would allow or agree with access....and perfectly underline the problem that woman only see men as being capable or worthy of access...and paying the child support.

I wanted custody...or shared custody...as i thought be it a man or a woman either was fully capable of raising the children...

But as seen by your post....you are only willing to suggest access!

LOL...,equality is something that is used or promoted when it furthers ones position but forgotten when it diminishes the role that one has already!
 Tealwood
Joined: 12/16/2008
Msg: 20
Canada child support law for non-bio parents: different points of view
Posted: 4/4/2010 6:15:06 PM
LOL

hey Jenns....

best interest of the child or children is having two involved and participating parents from day 1.....instead a father somehow has to prove the mother unfit as opposed to simply being a good parent himself....so from day 1...joint co-parenting and each parent is then responsible for their own income and their own finacial responsibility...
 Capitano_Blaugh
Joined: 3/18/2008
Msg: 21
Canada child support law for non-bio parents: different points of view
Posted: 4/4/2010 6:27:53 PM

Don't they address "the best interest of the child" in Canada?


Yes, they do, absolutely...

... it's just that there is always a $$$ attached to whatever is considered the "best interests".

 ohwhynot46
Joined: 6/28/2009
Msg: 22
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Canada child support law for non-bio parents: different points of view
Posted: 4/4/2010 6:43:08 PM
Capitano, there ARE always $$ attached; everyone needs to eat!

What I mean is that it would seem to me that someone who has served as parent to a child for some period of time would likely lend value to the life of that child by continuing to be involved. If the court deems them to have enough parental influence to have responsibility, why then don't they also deem them important to the other aspects of a child's life? Of course, if they are unfit...., but that is a case by case argument.
 lynaudio
Joined: 2/11/2007
Msg: 24
Canada child support law for non-bio parents: different points of view
Posted: 4/5/2010 5:53:06 AM


You forget that even if the mother doesn't want to go for support -forget the bit about "parents", in RL the law is applicable only to mothers and you know it-, she will be compelled to do it if she wants to get some help from the government.


Just so it's not forgotten - This only applies to social service recipients. So rather than being paranoid about all single mothers.... well I guess we still come back to our own relationship choices, eh?
 lynaudio
Joined: 2/11/2007
Msg: 25
Canada child support law for non-bio parents: different points of view
Posted: 4/5/2010 6:24:15 AM
Well I'm pretty sure. And my kids are too old for it to be an issue anyway. Among the three of us, we should be able to keep the bills paid, even if one of us falls from grace. Retail and waitress jobs are a dime a dozen. If a person really wants to work, it's not that hard. Over the years I have worked jobs that pay anywhere from minimum wage to $25/hr. Sometimes I even balanced a couple of part-time jobs to supplement self employment. I'm extremely healthy, so I'm guessing I would have to suffer a debilitating accident before I would require a social assistance check. But hey, anything is possible. They say a woman my age has a better chance of getting hit by a bus, than finding true love. I'm still optimistic.
 myblueshadow
Joined: 11/11/2009
Msg: 26
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Canada child support law for non-bio parents: different points of view
Posted: 4/5/2010 8:15:21 AM

If the step-parent breaks up with the primary caregiver, and he/she has to pay child support, this also means that he/she is entitled to see the child legally, and act as a legal parent (like an adoption). It means the primary caregiver cannot prevent the step-parent from continuing to be present in the child's life (absent of abuse of course).


Logically, that would make sense, however I don’t think legally that is the case. Child support and visitation are 2 completely separate issues. Paying child support, even for a biological child doesn’t automatically entitle someone to visitation. Someone can be ordered to pay child support and still have to initiate a court action, in a different court, to fight for visitation. Child support is automatic. Visitation battles can take years.

Like Capitano said, it’s purely a money grab.


I am still highly surprised (and, if true, quite dismayed) at the idea that a law could force step-parents towards obligations to the child (that part is okay for me) without also granting that step parent with rights (that part is very wrong to me).


Like I said above, this is also the case with biological parents who were not married when the child was conceived. It’s very one-sided!


Just so it's not forgotten - This only applies to social service recipients. So rather than being paranoid about all single mothers.... well I guess we still come back to our own relationship choices, eh?


Just because the law has only been applied in that situation ( social services recipients) doesn’t mean it can’t be applied in other situations.
 Capitano_Blaugh
Joined: 3/18/2008
Msg: 27
Canada child support law for non-bio parents: different points of view
Posted: 4/5/2010 8:40:11 AM
Capitano, there ARE always $$ attached; everyone needs to eat!

What I mean is that it would seem to me that someone who has served as parent to a child for some period of time would likely lend value to the life of that child by continuing to be involved. If the court deems them to have enough parental influence to have responsibility, why then don't they also deem them important to the other aspects of a child's life?


Well, you'd have to ask the courts about that. You are correct; the government and courts have no problem ordering a guy to pay in the "best interests of the child", but that's about as far as those interests are concerned...

.... and from personal experience and the experience of men I've talked with about this over the years, many, many women also see the money as the primary focus when it comes to "the best interests of the child" despite protestations at the beginning of relationships that they are not looking for a father for their kids nor do they need any man to support them or their kids.

 lynaudio
Joined: 2/11/2007
Msg: 28
Canada child support law for non-bio parents: different points of view
Posted: 4/5/2010 1:09:19 PM
Just because the law has only been applied in that situation ( social services recipients) doesn’t mean it can’t be applied in other situations.


This is true, but my comment was directed at a quote that pointed out even if the mother didn't want the government could anyway. So applying it in other circumstance put it back on the parent who tries to apply it.

It is a money grab, by the government, and by a few angry and deceitful people, but in some cases it is also justified. In other cases it is the result of a family breaking down while credit is over extended and both parties just scrambling to survive.

I think the message is clear though. Before we blend a family, we should take the time to discuss and document how things will go in case of a break-up. There is a place on prenup documents for treatment of pre-existing children. And prenups are recognized in common law relationships as well. We do have the tools to protect ourselves and our children. We just have to get used to using them.
 Capitano_Blaugh
Joined: 3/18/2008
Msg: 29
Canada child support law for non-bio parents: different points of view
Posted: 4/5/2010 1:24:06 PM

There is a place on prenup documents for treatment of pre-existing children. And prenups are recognized in common law relationships as well. We do have the tools to protect ourselves and our children. We just have to get used to using them.


You can include Child Support and other child related things in a prenup all you want, but they will not be recognised when the relationship ends. Child support cannot be bargained away. It is for the child and ...

....it NEVER benefits the receiving parent in any way, shape or form as some of us guys have found out......

 lynaudio
Joined: 2/11/2007
Msg: 31
Canada child support law for non-bio parents: different points of view
Posted: 4/5/2010 1:51:49 PM
It is my understanding that the only cases that have resulted in a stepparent being forced to step up, also involved said stepparent having chosen the role of parent to the child and practicing that role. So if you put in writing that you do not want to assume this role, and you back it up with your actions during the relationship, theoretically, you should be off the hook. But then people have to try it before we can know if it works. And it is still a discussion that should happen before involving children in a relationship.
 lynaudio
Joined: 2/11/2007
Msg: 32
Canada child support law for non-bio parents: different points of view
Posted: 4/5/2010 3:13:25 PM
I don’t know about the rest of the world, but in my world I have friends who hug my kids and share meals with them and buy them gifts. You’re splitting hairs to continue being a victim instead of looking for a solution. You know when you behave in a parenting role, and you know when a child looks on you as a father. That is a prerequisite too… the part about the child accepting that person as a parent.
Be afraid if you like, and steer clear of women with children. If you don’t agree that adults should discuss and agree upon, their roles in the children’s lives, the children are better off if the relationship does not progress.
 kissmyasthma
Joined: 12/4/2009
Msg: 33
Canada child support law for non-bio parents: different points of view
Posted: 4/5/2010 3:14:52 PM
Funny how the understanding of how a law should work and the real world are so far apart.
 Capitano_Blaugh
Joined: 3/18/2008
Msg: 34
Canada child support law for non-bio parents: different points of view
Posted: 4/5/2010 3:22:53 PM

don’t know about the rest of the world, but in my world I have friends who hug my kids and share meals with them and buy them gifts. You’re splitting hairs to continue being a victim instead of looking for a solution. You know when you behave in a parenting role, and you know when a child looks on you as a father. That is a prerequisite too… the part about the child accepting that person as a parent.

Be afraid if you like, and steer clear of women with children. If you don’t agree that adults should discuss and agree upon, their roles in the children’s lives, the children are better off if the relationship does not progress.


Well, as I've said many times in the fora: "At the beginning, it's all about the LOOOooooove. At the end, it's all about the MOOooonney".

When my ex and her son moved in with me, I didn't know anything about family law. Stupid? Yup, despite having had buddies tell me about their horror stories. I remember telling my ex about some of those situations and also remember her saying how appalled she was that women could do things like nail a guy for money just because they could when it came to kids....

... welp, when our relationship ended, she had no qualms whatsoever about hitting me for child support for a non-bio son and treating me just as some women had treated guys I knew in situations I had told her about.

Even her family and friends couldn't believe she was doing some of the things she was doing....

In short, you can discuss and agree all you want at the beginning of a relationship, but that means exactly fvck all at the end.

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