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Show ALL Forums  > Politics  > Gaming the System      Home login  
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 MrLove45
Joined: 1/31/2010
Msg: 2
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Gaming the SystemPage 1 of 3    (1, 2, 3)
oh this really dont bother me at all but you know what wanna know what do is all the deregulation that has caused this collapse of the economy as well as the damage to our environment ( see BP in the Gulf of Mexico).
Bill Clinton created 23 million jobs, while bush created around 6 mil and most of those were part time with no benefits. Under republicans the economy always stagnate while the cost of living goes up. You republicans always destroy our economy with the usual ' take breaks for the rich' (welfare for the wealthy) but all the time wanna make a mountain out of a molehill over a few people who may be waiting get a job that will provide for them and continuing to recieve their benefit instead of accepting a minimum wage landscaping job.
 Metreau
Joined: 7/30/2004
Msg: 4
Gaming the System
Posted: 5/11/2010 5:20:23 PM
If the Companies are so concerned all they need to do is report the Individuals to U/E Ins...



That should be very "common-sense" for this situation. The fact that they (employers) aren't reporting anyone makes them at fault, not the people.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
And who is gaming who here? Aren't these people pay their taxes into the system in the first place? Otherwise, they wouldn't even be eligible to receive unemployment checks in the first place.

Besides, most of those people have been (probably) worked to death for the past decade. This may be the only chance they get to actually relax and spend time with their families for once. So yeah, they are going to take advantage of this before they go back to work.

Does it make things right? Kinda sorta...again, they ALREADY HAVE/ARE paying into the system in the first place. So I guess you could say they are gaming themselves?!?
(Awkward....)
 wvwaterfall
Joined: 1/17/2007
Msg: 9
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Gaming the System
Posted: 5/14/2010 7:18:18 AM
The silly thing about this concept is that the best way to extend your unemployment benefits is....to WORK!

At least here in WV when you sign up for unemployment they review your past covered income and produce first a lump sum figure that is then divided into payments you can receive that will exhaust it in six months.

BUT, if you work, although the amount you make is deducted from your weekly unemployment check, it also means your lump sum stays bigger, and you can continue to draw against it any time you're not working up until you've gone two years since you first filed.

AND, your lump sum is calculated by a formula based on your last 15 months of covered income, and unemployment income is NOT included. So if you stay on the dole, work a month, then apply again your unemployment check will be much smaller than if you worked all the jobs you could find while you could.

There's no financial argument for turning down work and choosing to stay on unemployment instead. At least not here there isn't, and I don't see people doing that.

The way they WILL game the system is to do under the table work, whether odd jobs, yard work, selling firewood or whatever they can come up with. But people have been doing that for ages just to avoid paying taxes. I don't see any easy answer.

Every state sets up their unemployment system differently, so what I outlined may not apply elsewhere, but I just don't see this to be the problem it's presented as.

Dave
 MrLove45
Joined: 1/31/2010
Msg: 10
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Gaming the System
Posted: 5/14/2010 8:10:32 AM
I bet you have no problem with that $ $994,017,144,833 price tag of war with Iraq& Afghanistan and not to mention the loss of human life as well as the suffering that comes along with it.
I bet you consider cheney and the oil lobbyist cunningly allowing current U.S. law limits their liability for lost business and local tax revenues to $75 million as 'brilliant' yet you wanna come in here and lamment that somebody may be getting another tier of unemployment benefits or this mythical 'welfare queen' too....oh you republicans are a frigging joke.....but fortunately the last laugh is on you guys too.... Dont you just love the browning of america as well these young v oters who are overwhelmingly democrats as they dont buy into all this 'gaming and entitlement bullcrap...and the older white male republican(teabaggers) is a dying breed as well as a dying political party tooo..
 Imported_labor
Joined: 3/7/2008
Msg: 11
Gaming the System
Posted: 5/14/2010 12:07:15 PM
The reality is that those employers who want game the system into their favor need to learn a lesson from the other employers who don't have a problem finding suitable help. It shouldn't be very difficult finding help in this employer's market, but they need to be realistic about how much help they can hire by insisting in offering lower wages than those required by the labor market.

Just because there are high numbers of unemployed people, doesn't mean that they all can go and compete for the limited number of landscaping jobs. Most of the unemployed people weren't working in landscape before they lost their jobs. Employers whining about people gaming the system should look at the mirror and see themselves as the ansqer to their problem. They are trying to game the system themselves, and when nobody wants to take their low-paying jobs then they start crying about the government giving money to people to not work.

The best recruiting tool that the employer has is offering a decent wage, one that the worker would hate to lose. With that in place, then the employer will get the employee to produce to his/her satisfaction.
 Metreau
Joined: 7/30/2004
Msg: 12
Gaming the System
Posted: 5/15/2010 10:24:46 AM
Gaming the system is making up lies for support about fictitious gaming the system.

Gamming the system is using nice legs to turn men's brains into mush.


What?!? Clarification (as into what you meant by that) is requested.


The best recruiting tool that the employer has is offering a decent wage, one that the worker would hate to lose. With that in place, then the employer will get the employee to produce to his/her satisfaction.




That response really summed everything up in a nutshell. Once employers actually offer jobs with decent pay scales and job security, people won't have to depend on the Gov't so much.

As I've said, folks receiving unemployment checks have already paid into the system. In my state (Virginia), you even pay taxes on your unemployment benefits (unsure if that's applicable in other states). So the people aren't really "gaming the system"; they've contributed (and are still contributing) to the system. Otherwise, they would be ineligible to receive unemployment assistance in the first place.


The way they WILL game the system is to do under the table work, whether odd jobs, yard work, selling firewood or whatever they can come up with. But people have been doing that for ages just to avoid paying taxes. I don't see any easy answer.


Even if people do "under the table" work, odd jobs, or what not, they still wind up paying taxes, such as sales tax, when they go to the grocery stores. Now in Delaware, that's a different story as there is no sales tax (correct me if I'm wrong on that).

However, you are essentially correct on this one. In this economy, people are going to do what they have to do to survive and feed their families, and in some cases, it may be illegal (i.e. prostitution, robbery, drug distribution, etc) and as much as I can't stand any of it, I can't really blame em'. Hey, if it gets the bills paid, keeps a roof over your head, and puts food on the table for you and yours, so be it.
 Metreau
Joined: 7/30/2004
Msg: 13
Gaming the System
Posted: 5/16/2010 12:30:18 PM
The solution is to raise the minimum wage which will make work more attractive.


No one wants minimum wage anymore; people barely make it on the minimum wage. So why raise the minimum wage?

Why can't there just be BETTER wages for all, so that everyone can make ends meet and still be able to save something? Why can't job security be given to those that have busted their butts for years on end?

If people had a better wage and job security they could comfortably live with, there would be no need for unemployment assistance.
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 15
Gaming the System
Posted: 5/17/2010 1:30:17 PM
Folks - how can you read this and not see it is YOUR OWN MONEY being wasted here?

Ummm... Because we don't see socialized benefits for the betterment of the populace to be a waste, perhaps...? Because we KNOW that a minority of recipients WILL try to take advantage but don't see that as sufficient reason to dump programs all together (hint: there is NO SUCH THING as "iron-clad and fraud-proof". Eliminating programs because SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE, will take advantage is akin to outlawing private business because SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE, will defraud his customers)...

Unless of course you're one of the millions of people who don't even pay taxes, and actually GET more from the government than you contribute... I guess if you're one of those folks, this doesn't even make your radar... Why would it matter?

Well there aren't too many in the wealthy top 1%... But, I agree, it likely isn't even "on their radar"...

If you aren't earning what you think you are worth, and someone else is willing to pay what you are worth, you quit and take the new job. It's that simple.

Now you've presented quite the conundrum... Where is that "other job" going to come from...? According to the conservatives around here, the US is "bleeding jobs" and Obama isn't doing anything to stop it...

How can you seriously propose a "solution" that can't happen (according to conservative analysis of the job market)...?
 Imported_labor
Joined: 3/7/2008
Msg: 16
Gaming the System
Posted: 5/17/2010 2:43:30 PM

As far as wages go, that is in the employee's hands as much as the employer's. If you aren't earning what you think you are worth, and someone else is willing to pay what you are worth, you quit and take the new job. It's that simple.


That sums up very well the position of the right-wing employers: get someone to do the job for the least amount of pay possible. Keep putting pressure down of the wages and benefits paid to employees, no matter what the consequences. If the employee doesn't like it, then he/she can go find another job. "No problem with us, business is business--they think-- there are millions of unemployed people, and also illegal aliens willing to work for less pay than those uppity lazy as..s."
 Metreau
Joined: 7/30/2004
Msg: 17
Gaming the System
Posted: 5/17/2010 6:16:40 PM
"Job security" is not a right, nor should it be mandated by the government. What are you doing to do, tell a restaurant they have to keep paying their employees whether they do a good job or not? Whether they have enough business, or not? Are you going to tell a landscaping company they have to pay their people year round, even when it's winter and the grass doesn't need mowing?


Ok, you're right....job security isn't a right. I would still like to ask....


Why can't job security be given to those that have busted their butts for years on end?


I didn't mean that employers should just dole out job security to just anyone...it should be given to those who continuously prove that they're worthy of it. That's one thing that people are looking for right now (stability). They don't want to work a job that'll cut them at any given moment for any given reason when they've put in 5, 10, 20 years of quality work. And they damn sure don't want a job that's going to pay minimum wage (or lower in certain cases) for all of the work they're expected to put in either.



That sums up very well the position of the right-wing employers: get someone to do the job for the least amount of pay possible. Keep putting pressure down of the wages and benefits paid to employees, no matter what the consequences. If the employee doesn't like it, then he/she can go find another job. "No problem with us, business is business--they think-- there are millions of unemployed people, and also illegal aliens willing to work for less pay than those uppity lazy as..s."


This is definitely true for cities with large African-American populations. My city (Richmond, VA) is a good example of this.
 Metreau
Joined: 7/30/2004
Msg: 19
Gaming the System
Posted: 5/19/2010 3:46:44 AM
^^^After reading what you just wrote, I'm inclined to respond.

First off, what source are you looking at for the unemployment rates for Texas, Florida, and Arizona? Because according to this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_unemployment_rate

Texas is at 8.2%, Arizona is damn near the national average with 9.6%, and Florida is at 12.3%, the 5th highest unemployment rate in the U.S., and that's in March of this year. April hasn't been released yet.

Now you are right about the 10-year growth in jobs for Texas and Florida...but not Arizona. According to this:

http://americansforprosperity.org/012610-texas-has-largest-10-year-growth-private-sector-jobs-among-all-states

Arizona is not even on that list, or even mentioned.

And yes, the right-wing business owners are not innocent. Anytime we can see them gaming the system by sitting on their butts, making money by watching illegal immigrants (which they don't pay that much to) do the work THEY should be doing or offering legal citizens are also leeches.

"But wait! It doesn't apply to them!"

Sure........
 wvwaterfall
Joined: 1/17/2007
Msg: 20
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Gaming the System
Posted: 5/19/2010 6:05:19 AM

he cost of protecting America from her enemies, the freedom of her people, and ensuring that She is never again brought to her knees in terror as we were when we watched thousands slaughtered on live television by those we war against has no price tag, jack.


Iraq and Afganistan never threatened our freedom, never attacked the U.S., were only our 'enemies' in the mind of those who declared them such, and I dare say we were NOT brought to our knees on 9/11 as you describe, and certainly not by two countries who played no role in those attacks. Iraq had zero connection to 9/11, and Afghanistan was responsible for 9/11 just as much as the U.S. was responsible for Oklahoma City.

If you want to protect yourself from enemies, you don't go about creating new enemies, and that's exactly what we did through our response to 9/11. We COULD have used that tragic day as an opportunity to unite the world against terrorists. Instead we set about creating many more terrorists by living down to the expectations of the handful of fanatics who railed against us.

But I digress.

There is a clear division amongst us between those who think the least fortunate among us deserve support as they get back on their feet and those who subscribe to a 'survival of the fittest' economic and human philosophy that shows callous disregard for anyone who hasn't gamed our capitalist system sufficiently to bring home a large paycheck.

Dave
 MrLove45
Joined: 1/31/2010
Msg: 22
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Gaming the System
Posted: 5/19/2010 8:18:42 AM
hey and lets not talk about those 'least fortunate' among us and how they became that way....no sir, lets just keep things how they are and make sure their is no gains in that gap between the least forunate( what a witty term) and the most fortunate......
 wvwaterfall
Joined: 1/17/2007
Msg: 23
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Gaming the System
Posted: 5/19/2010 1:56:50 PM


"Gamed our capitalist system sufficiently to bring home a large paycheck"? Are you KIDDING me?


Hey, if you want to cherry pick an example or two of someone abusing our unemployment system, I promise you I can come up with many more examples of people NOT working their butts off to earn a fair income but rather lying, cheating, stealing, and otherwise gaming our capitalist system to build their fortunes on the shoulders of those they abused.

I know plenty of examples of people who are honest, hard working, and earned every penny they have, as you describe. I also know plenty of examples of those who gained their wealth in far less honorable ways.

I'm not here to condemn capitalism. Properly CONTROLLED it's a fine tool to include in our toolbox of options to assure a strong society. But so are programs to help those who need it to get back on their feet.

Any system can be gamed, so all need careful scrutiny.

'nuff said....

dave
 Ready4SomethingFun
Joined: 3/17/2008
Msg: 25
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Gaming the System
Posted: 5/25/2010 1:39:00 AM

So people should have to work for a living, and no one should get handed a check simply for existing....oh wait....there's Paris Hilton over there with her friends !


Paris' rich parents and grandparents are footing the bill for her antics, so it isn't a valid argument. Now if they ever cut her off and she has to go get a real job......we can revive this thread and discuss her in more detail.
 Imported_labor
Joined: 3/7/2008
Msg: 27
Gaming the System
Posted: 5/25/2010 10:36:57 AM

Close the loopholes. Send the illegal immigrants home. Let those who are unemployed take those jobs if it comes down to it. If they won't - then stop paying them unemployment benefits.


So, if it were up to you, you would force an unemployed 62 years old accountant receiving an unemployment insurance check for $560.00 to work as a lawnmower operator for one of those landscape companies that want to pay their workers $12.00 with no benefits. Either that person takes the job, or loses the unemployment insurance?

Get real. Why don't you pass your ideas to the Republican caucuses in Congress and see how far they will get with them?
 Ready4SomethingFun
Joined: 3/17/2008
Msg: 28
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Gaming the System
Posted: 5/25/2010 1:12:33 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't unemployment cap at around 380.00 or so? I think a 560.00 unemployment check isn't possible.
 Imported_labor
Joined: 3/7/2008
Msg: 29
Gaming the System
Posted: 5/25/2010 3:21:33 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't unemployment cap at around 380.00 or so? I think a 560.00 unemployment check isn't possible


I'll correct you alright! The unemployment insurance payment amount depends on which state you live. Some states are more stingy than others when it comes to help people who are in need for no fault of their own.

In some states the amount of the payment is half of the salary the employee used to receive averaged on a yearly basis. The payments last normally for 26 weeks, but during this recession the Federal Government has passed several pieces of legislation extending the payments for 73 more weeks.

I hope that information helps you!
 wvwaterfall
Joined: 1/17/2007
Msg: 31
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Gaming the System
Posted: 5/26/2010 12:52:36 PM

I know that's all good and fine with you socialist types out there, who don't understand or care where the money really comes from, especially if you actually PAY little or no taxes yourself, or already live on government handouts, but not me... I actually have a JOB and actually PAY taxes... LOTS of taxes... Enough with the freeloading... Enough with the blood sucking leeches... Enough with the Octomoms and the Socialist Looters... Let unemployment insurance be what it was meant for - to be there for the hard working people who find themselves temporarily out of work. Not for those who deliberately game the system for as long as they can get away with it.


I don't embrace the socialist label, but don't consider it an insult as intended either. I've spent time in countries that have experienced socialist, capitalist, and dictator governments. You might be surprised at the answers many residents give when asked which they prefer...

I DO pay taxes, and unlike some here am proud to do so. I'm not a freeloader who thinks I should keep all my pay while benefiting from the roads, schools, fire departments, police protection, environmental protections, and yes, unemployment protection my taxes provide. To me that's the difference between living in an anarchy and a civil society.

And if you want to talk about blood sucking leeches, a whole lot more blood is sucked by soul less corporations blithely excused here for doing what they're supposed to do by avoiding any more social responsibility than forced on them without getting caught.

There are ample examples of responsible corporations giving back to their communities and working in concert with local, state, and federal governments for the betterment of all. Being a corporation need not excuse them from thinking beyond their fiscal bottom line unless they DECIDE to act that way.

There will always be those who abuse whatever system is in place, and abusers at any level should be caught and punished.

But let's not take things out of proportion here - add up all the unemployment abuse costs and I doubt you'd come close to what, say, BP is going to end up avoiding paying in cleanup costs that our tax dollars will cover instead, or that we'll all pay in higher seafood prices, and that's just a single example to put up against the sum total of all the unemployment abusers. If my math is wrong, it won't take long to cover the difference from countless other examples of corporate system gaming.

Dave
 Metreau
Joined: 7/30/2004
Msg: 32
Gaming the System
Posted: 5/26/2010 3:12:18 PM
I know that's all good and fine with you socialist types out there, who don't understand or care where the money really comes from, especially if you actually PAY little or no taxes yourself, or already live on government handouts, but not me... I actually have a JOB and actually PAY taxes... LOTS of taxes... Enough with the freeloading... Enough with the blood sucking leeches... Enough with the Octomoms and the Socialist Looters... Let unemployment insurance be what it was meant for - to be there for the hard working people who find themselves temporarily out of work. Not for those who deliberately game the system for as long as they can get away with it.


Honestly, I find that response to be a bit idiotic. A lot of people on these forums (myself included) also have jobs and pay their share of taxes. It just seems we just happen to have a better understanding of what people have went/are going thru and grew a bigger heart for others than people like you....

Let me put it to you like this.....Just because you have marketable skills, a decent job, home, etc. doesn't mean that you're "safe", as anyone and everyone is always one step away from hitting rock bottom. You could have all of your ducks in a row at one point and then lose everything you've ever worked for the very next day. I (and many others here and elsewhere) can definitely attest to this, as it has already happened! These economic times should be the prime example of that.

And what is it that you don't understand?! How can one "game the system" when they ALREADY ARE PAYING/HAVE PAID INTO IT?! How can one be considered a "Socialist leech" when they have put in YEARS of legitimate work to earn the money to pay into the system in the first place?! It seems like people from your side of the spectrum have CONTINUOUSLY evaded that point when I've brought it up, so I'd like to see an answer to that.
 Imported_labor
Joined: 3/7/2008
Msg: 33
Gaming the System
Posted: 5/26/2010 3:20:28 PM

When it's coming from the Federal Government, and not unemployment insurance, the person isn't "getting back what they paid in". They are getting our tax dollars. When they game the system, it is costing each and every single one of us.


And whose tax dollars were used for the Wall Street and Big Banks bailout?

Funny how you haven't railed against that kind of socialism! I guess that if it benefits the rich, then that kind of socialism is OK by you.
 Imported_labor
Joined: 3/7/2008
Msg: 35
Gaming the System
Posted: 5/27/2010 5:50:15 AM

Not to mention keeping a company afloat benefits more than just the rich, the reason for the bailout was focus on the employees. So a board of 50 "rich" people benefit, and a few thousand people keep their jobs.
So are you saying you wouldn't mind punishing those 50 greedy rich people at the expense of those couple of thousand not so rich employees?


In accordance with the thinking of the OP, it should be fine to have all those people become unemployed so that they can be available to start replacing the labor provided by the illegal aliens who will be deported. It would be good for their spirit to become accustomed to the niceties of construction labor, fast food cooking, toilet cleaning in corporate hotels, mowing lawns for $12.00 an hour, no benefits, and use your own transportation to get to your different labor sites during the daily shift.
 bliss serendipity
Joined: 12/27/2006
Msg: 38
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Gaming the System
Posted: 5/31/2010 10:43:41 PM
the only personhood gaming the system is corporations. It's always easier to blame poor people or illegals, they have no way of changing the system.

Bliss
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