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 bint fishing
Joined: 7/28/2010
Msg: 2
Pragmatic RealitiesPage 1 of 4    (1, 2, 3, 4)
Well, one could turn the TV off, stop listening to the radio, stop playing on the computer, leave magazines and news papers in the rack, leave the cell phone at home and go for a walk. Information overload has gotten to the point of feeding the anxiety that keeps feeding the information.

You want to see people really freak out? Pull their addictions to information!


“All truly great thoughts are conceived by walking.”
Friedrich Nietzsche
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 3
Pragmatic Realities
Posted: 8/4/2010 1:33:07 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_medium_is_the_message

So if the medium is the message than you are more the content than anything else is. In other words, you are an active part of the process and so have your own share of responsibility for how you consume what is being transmitted because you are dictating it much more than the suits on Wall Street. They're only responding to your demand and the demand of everyone else around you. Bummer, I know...to actually hold that responsibility. But responsibility it is.
 motown cowgirl
Joined: 6/30/2010
Msg: 4
Pragmatic Realities
Posted: 8/4/2010 3:24:49 PM
all that is required for banality to prevail is for most men to do nothing.
:shrug:
 JustAGrlWthACat
Joined: 4/17/2010
Msg: 5
Pragmatic Realities
Posted: 8/4/2010 4:01:32 PM
how do we step aside? well link bink said really.
otherwise there isn't a 100% fool proof way. Just have to exercise your own scruples to filter it.
 az109
Joined: 7/3/2010
Msg: 6
Pragmatic Realities
Posted: 8/4/2010 11:40:52 PM
How did you come up with the idea that you were incapable of seeing it for what it is, unless you saw it for what it was?

When I watch the TV it doesn't control me. My toaster does that. You have to choose to which appliances you pledge your allegiance.

I think I saw a movie once about how movies brainwashed people. That made me highly suspicious of the gal selling popcorn in the lobby. It wasn't just her haircut.

Soylent Green is made from people.

Brave New World.

Hey, I've got a book you might like. It was written around the time the US was getting ready to form. Gulliver's Travels, by Jonathan Swift. There's your satirical look at how goofy is society and its membership.

You can inoculate your mind from propaganda by thinking rationally. It's fun but you miss out on things. Elections come and go, ho hum. Wars come and go, ho hum. Fashions come and go, ho hum. You do a lot of ho-humming when you depart from your regularly scheduled programming.
 cookie22222
Joined: 8/4/2007
Msg: 7
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Pragmatic Realities
Posted: 8/5/2010 6:45:57 AM
OP - I'm trying to wrap my brain around your point...there are several things that come to mind for me. In the early '80s I went out a couple of times with a guy from Kuwait. We discussed the Shah of Iran...and his point of view about that whole situation was the polar opposite of what had been "presented" to me by the US media. That was the point when I realized (keep in mind I was 17)...that maybe, just maybe, the news wasn't the "truth"...that it was "our" perception of what was happening. It all depends on what side you are on, doesn't it?

One man's terrorists is another man's freedom fighter.
 sarniafairyboy
Joined: 6/19/2010
Msg: 8
Pragmatic Realities
Posted: 8/5/2010 10:03:02 AM

Well, one could turn the TV off, stop listening to the radio, stop playing on the computer, leave magazines and news papers in the rack, leave the cell phone at home and go for a walk. Information overload has gotten to the point of feeding the anxiety that keeps feeding the information.

You want to see people really freak out? Pull their addictions to information!


“All truly great thoughts are conceived by walking.”
Friedrich Nietzsche


all truly great thoughts are conceived by the self, not by parroting quotes from other so-called 'great' thinkers' - me

I don't have a problem with TV -generated ideas controlling me simply because I have had no TV connection for the past 5 years,; I feel that the good (there is SOME good stuff there) is outweighed by the bad & potential for time-wasting

now I still do get some influence from newspapers, internet, etc. which I TRY to fight..

some of this stuff that peoplethink you "need" you do not really need -TV, cell phones, internet, etc.

the MAJORITY of people in the world live without most of this crap, outside of the 'first world' - most get by just fine without it

now if only I can break my semi-addiction to the internet..
 .dej
Joined: 11/6/2007
Msg: 9
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Posted: 8/5/2010 10:36:19 AM

This fascism so subtle

Fascism doesn't mean what you think it means.


the MAJORITY of people in the world live without most of this crap, outside of the 'first world' - most get by just fine without it

So? They also get "get by" without clean water, sanitary food and living conditions, education, and livelihoods that don't require a significant chance of dying.
 bint fishing
Joined: 7/28/2010
Msg: 10
Pragmatic Realities
Posted: 8/5/2010 11:26:38 AM

all truly great thoughts are conceived by the self, not by parroting quotes from other so-called 'great' thinkers' - me


Really? Hmmm, and where did those ideas of the self come from there Mr. Me? An anti stab at a “so called” great thinker does indeed make one acknowledge their so called thought now doesn’t it.

The parroting and the post was meant as a pun, I guess an individual thought process not filtered through media sensationalism might not use that pause available to think about it.
 nipoleon
Joined: 12/27/2005
Msg: 11
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Posted: 8/5/2010 11:42:25 AM
It's not a matter that it's a game.
Of course it's a game.
There are those who know it's a game.... and there are those who don't know it's a game.

Do you know it's a game ?

And....... can you play to win ?
 Ubiquitous.
Joined: 11/7/2009
Msg: 12
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Posted: 8/5/2010 11:42:38 AM
It is politically impossible right now, but the most effective thing we could to do break the information system you are talking about would be to get rid of the FCC. The FCC is quite literally the institution that grants monopolistic television licences to only a few companies and prevents other companies from competing. You, literally, cannot start a television station if you wanted and had the resources to do so. You would need permission from the FCC, which is controlled in large part by the big networks. These licences are rarely ever granted to new companies. They are almost exclusively issued to existing companies.

The state is what has made the television industry a cartel.

Or... you could just be like me and watch zero television ;p
 sarniafairyboy
Joined: 6/19/2010
Msg: 13
Pragmatic Realities
Posted: 8/5/2010 11:45:51 AM

Fascism doesn't mean what you think it means.



the MAJORITY of people in the world live without most of this crap, outside of the 'first world' - most get by just fine without it

So? They also get "get by" without clean water, sanitary food and living conditions, education, and livelihoods that don't require a significant chance of dying.


don't really see the linkage here

why having clean water (do we have "clean water"? - not in our rivers & lakes, anyway). sanitary food, education, livelihoods or whatever else you mention, would REQUIRE addiction to TV & news media?
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 14
Pragmatic Realities
Posted: 8/5/2010 11:53:14 AM

It is politically impossible right now, but the most effective thing we could to do break the information system you are talking about would be to get rid of the FCC. The FCC is quite literally the institution that grants monopolistic television licences to only a few companies and prevents other companies from competing. You, literally, cannot start a television station if you wanted and had the resources to do so. You would need permission from the FCC, which is controlled in large part by the big networks. These licences are rarely ever granted to new companies.


They also regulate the electromagnetic spectrum and which agencies get what part of that spectrum - so firefighters speak to firefighters, airline pilots speak to the tower, and ne'er the twain shall interfere - and what part of the spectrum remains free for things like astronomical research.

http://www.fcc.gov/oet/spectrum/

So, as a practial matter, ill-advised. As much as throwing the baby out with the bathwater seems the Libertarian point of view.
 Super_Eve
Joined: 10/23/2008
Msg: 15
Pragmatic Realities
Posted: 8/5/2010 12:32:56 PM

How do we step aside from the information coming through the television from the great mediator? This fascism so subtle, because it's so sub-embedded because it's entirely a censorship of the economy, so you experience it as a pragmatic reality, you don't experience it as what it is, controlling and telling us how we are to perceive reality.


I am confused.

I don't see what pragmatic reality has to do with the opening post.

Unless we are talking about the lies of meaning of theories or beliefs in terms of the unsuccessful attempts at their impractical application.

But I guess we do need a baseline for comparison.
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 16
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Posted: 8/5/2010 12:45:49 PM

How do we step aside from the information coming through the television from the great mediator?
It's like reading a newspaper. Most newspapers are pushing the political beliefs of their owner as propaganda. You just remember that, and you read as much as you can, with a very sceptical eye.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 18
Pragmatic Realities
Posted: 8/5/2010 4:10:02 PM
Gotta love Marshall McLuhan. He was ahead of his time, wasn't he? People thought he was crazy when he gave lectures back in the 60's.


He was ahead of his time. An amazing man with an amazing insight even more relevant today than at any other time in history.


The point he was trying to make with his famous words, "the medium is the message," is that the format that transmits the information (the medium) is what changes man, not the content of the message.


Indeed, this is true. The obvious extension of that is...that we are active participants in the process.


I would be naive to agree with the sentence in bold.


Really. And what do you think the Nielsen ratings were all about? Do you think there'd be a Rush Limbaugh or Bill O'Reilly or even Howard Stern if they didn't have a listener/viewership? Do you think people just sit there in front of their TVs or Internet without being an active participant in the content you were receiving?

Do you take no responsibility for your participation?
 arwen52
Joined: 3/13/2008
Msg: 19
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Posted: 8/5/2010 4:59:59 PM

How do we step aside from the information coming through the television from the great mediator? This fascism so subtle, because it's so sub-embedded because it's entirely a censorship of the economy, so you experience it as a pragmatic reality, you don't experience it as what it is, controlling and telling us how we are to perceive reality.


Suggestion: Turn off the TV, get a 7th grade English textbook, and practice writing a coherent sentence.
 Inicia
Joined: 12/21/2007
Msg: 20
Pragmatic Realities
Posted: 8/5/2010 9:40:59 PM
the best way to eliminate communication is to watch life instead of live it.. another way is to correct the speaker... 16 years ago, I lived without a TV or radio. When I was 28 years of age, my family bought me a TV. They felt TV was what I needed. I just trashed the TV again.. Sick of that crap...I am 44.. living life again.. tis good.. Its easy to be subdued into lethargy and apathy, watching the roman empire fall in our peripheral vision as we focus on Colosseum blood baths...
 Ubiquitous.
Joined: 11/7/2009
Msg: 23
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Posted: 8/7/2010 10:37:55 AM
stargazer1000

So you're saying the FCC is needed to issue and monopolize television and radio licences to reserve a small portion of the EM spectrum for official use. The government can't say "Don't use these frequencies: 1500-2000hz" and leave the rest alone?

That doesn't make any sense.

The truth is, the FCC is possibly the most corrupting institution in our economy, behind the Federal Reserve of course. Research its history and the reasons for its formation and its expansion of powers and oversight capabilities. The FCC was lobbied to expand its power not by a large public outcry, but by media corporations.

This question is for everyone. What possible good could come from a system of violence-enforced monopoly and oligopoly in the realm of mass media? A system where if you try to start a competing television or radio station -- because you are dissatisfied with the existing establishments -- you will be threatened with violence until you stop or you are neutralized (caged or killed).

Fundamentally, when you look at it objectively, that's exactly what the FCC is: the arm of the government that holds the gun of state violence, used in order to cartelize the mass media.

Everything enforced by the state is enforced by violence. If you do not comply with the political class' "laws", you will be thrown into a steel cage for a time determined by them. If you resist, you will be shot.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 24
Pragmatic Realities
Posted: 8/7/2010 3:51:19 PM
Ubi...seriously, you need to take some meds. Something really strong and, um, relaxing. No, that's not the government out there to get you...just the neighbour watering his lawn.

Sheesh!
 Ubiquitous.
Joined: 11/7/2009
Msg: 25
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Posted: 8/7/2010 5:52:38 PM
Is there anything I said that you can rationally show to be incorrect? Or are you just trying to be cute?

Why address the messenger, not the message?
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 27
Pragmatic Realities
Posted: 8/7/2010 9:04:52 PM

Is there anything I said that you can rationally show to be incorrect? Or are you just trying to be cute?

Why address the messenger, not the message?


Can we say "over the top?"

Or is there an logical means by which we go from "regulating specific radio frequencies for civil, public and research use" to the "State" killing people at random? Your doctor must dread doing the reflex test on you, your knee-jerk reactions must send him flying!
 Ubiquitous.
Joined: 11/7/2009
Msg: 28
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Posted: 8/7/2010 9:43:43 PM
stargazer1000


is there an logical means by which we go from "regulating specific radio frequencies for civil, public and research use" to the "State" killing people


Because if you do not comply with the rules they write, you will be deemed an "outlaw" and thereby will be thrown into a steel cage. If you resist that, you will be shot. This is empirical fact.

I asked you two questions. 1) What does the state reserving a small portion of the whole EM spectrum for official use have to do with the FCC (or like agency in other nations) from monopolizing almost the entire EM spectrum for television and radio? And 2), what possible good could come from any institution violently enforcing a monopoly in mass media in order to secure a cartel of a few media establishments? That, fundamentally, is exactly what the state is.

Are you going to answer these?




the "State" killing people at random

You either did not read my post carefully or you are being dishonest. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, but I clearly qualified my claim to address specific people. How on earth did you derive "at random" from my post?




Your doctor must dread doing the reflex test on you, your knee-jerk reactions must send him flying!

Do you get off on using ad-hominem attacks or something? You haven't addressed a single one of my points...
 Ubiquitous.
Joined: 11/7/2009
Msg: 29
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Posted: 8/7/2010 11:32:27 PM
nothinglefttoburn


Ubiquitous, you're absolutely right. I just cannot understand why certain people are incapable of seeing that. It's like they're psychologically blocking it out, or they're in regret or denial. It's troublesome.

That's exactly what they're doing. The ideology of statism has left the majority of people convinced that it is virtuous to use violence against those who disagree with you politically. That if they wish to not contribute to a system that engages in activities they reject, they ought to be kidnapped, tried, and thrown into prison. And that if they resist this, they ought to be killed.

In my opinion, this fundamentally has to do with parenting. We are all taught from a young age not to hit, not to steal, not to push or to use force. Yet force is used against most of us by our parents. We are taught to be obedient by our parents. To do what they say, but if we do not, our parents consider it virtuous to attack us -- often violently (I can speak from experience). These attacks can be as blatant as spanking or as subtle as growling (fathers) or cognitive manipulation to twist you into feeling guilt (mothers) for not submitting to the hierarchy. This clear and fundamental contradiction during the most formative years of our lives I believe creates a cognitive dissonance so strong that it has the effect of blinding us to the violence of the state.

We do not view our parents as violent. We do not view the state as violent.

Statism is made possible, in my opinion, due to the prevalence of medieval parenting practices that encourage mothers and fathers to treat offspring as people to be controlled and manipulated into serving "family" rather than to be treated as innocent, dependent human beings who are to be reasoned with and encouraged to participate in "family" rather than forced to be. We are taught that it is not virtuous to use violence to solve non-violent problems, but we are shown by the most influential people in our lives that it is virtuous to use violence to "solve" non-violent problems.

Again, this dissonance, I believe, paves the way for "statism" to infect our minds and have it sheath the fist of the state in the glove of uplifting speeches and empty rhetoric spouted by popular strangers.

If you want to explore this further, I could not recommend "Real Time Relationships - The Logic of Love" by Stefan Molyneux any more. It may not have the most gripping title, but it is by far the most profound piece of literature I have ever read. And considering the amount of Rand, Rothbard, and Hayek I've devoured, I think that means something.

It starts out with romantic relationships, which is interesting, but once it starts exploring our relationship with our parents and then with the state, you'll see what I mean.
 nipoleon
Joined: 12/27/2005
Msg: 30
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Posted: 8/8/2010 10:10:52 AM
The only people who ever complain about the game are the losers.
Winners don't complain, winners love the game the way it is.
After all, they invented the game and set it up the way it is.

Everybody loves the game when things are going well.
The minute people start getting screwed...... they don't like the game anymore.
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